Here we go again..

[nandon]

Why set up a system, or a "training program" where one has the possibility of having grovelling followers, and the power of summary judgment over other people's lives, if one does NOT have the intentions of actually allowing them to grovel, and kick their a** just "because"?

No real checks and balances..

no REAL trained staff..

probably not any kinda trained medical personnel in case people get hurt in the middle of nowhere..

maybe they can just (make)believe..

and then convince people that this "priviledge" is God's will for their lives.. a year and a half, and they can be gawd's "elite"?

If it was some kinda "rehab" or something.. to help get someone on their feet, physically fit, back into SCHOOL.. or on a path to a career- it would sound a heck of a lot more "humanitarian" or "godly" to me..

well, one thing I can smell- lawsuit. Even if you have a fifty page long hold harmless agreement, a court very well may rule that a REASONABLE (or sane) person

would not sign it.. and award compensation anyway.

How many acres do you say you have?

because its a good business plan.

it's simple, and it's been proven to work.

and labor is cheap, and you get the fringe benefit of lots of women who look up to you.

[Ham]

And *apparently* that is all they know how to do..

[skyrider]

because its a good business plan.

it's simple, and it's been proven to work.

and labor is cheap, and you get the fringe benefit of lots of women who look up to you.

In all seriousness.....

1) The "V2P2 corps program" had 4 graduates.

2) After this 9-month program.....what next?

3) Are those 4 graduates moving to the next level?

4) What are the sign-ups for the second year?

Imo.....I just don't see this thing ever getting off the ground. Think about it.....only 4 grads. And, with six or seven staff people with 16-hour day oversight? How much of the work was to basically sustain their own needs? And, what kind of salary would anyone have received from this? To me, overhead costs and "salary" costs and location logistics would eat away at any future momentum or success.

I'd be interested to hear if it goes anywhere in the next two or three years.

[Ham]

which in my opinion.. really is a pathetic dead end for the mogs that once were..

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Its very fitting the backdrop of this is a farm.. kinda Orwellian, would you agree?

You mean Animal Farm?

[Ham]

Yep.

[Ham]

The real problem though.. unlike the pigs in Orwells story.. the mogs really aren't really that smart..

except for maybe one.

[Ham]

I wonder if the "program" has produced anything new at this point.. or different from the old parent organization..

[waysider]

I wonder if the "program" has produced anything new at this point.. or different from the old parent organization..

That would be like killing the goose that laid the golden eggs.

Edited November 10, 2013 by waysider

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/12/2008 at 9:31 AM, Watered Garden said:

What are you referring to?

WG

The one in Mississippi.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/12/2008 at 3:07 PM, Ham said:

Plus someone in charge.. who is LARGELY unproved..

the kid MIGHT be qualified to run a weekend camp or something..

Ham, are you sure he is qualified to run anything??!!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/12/2008 at 10:49 PM, rascal said:

Perhaps something about good fruit from a bad tree?

The doctrine of wierwille allowed evil to run rampant and unchecked. People were hurt, people died from it`s implementation.

Your darned right we have reason to believe that it is harmful, not matter WHO is teaching it or WHAT their heart is like.

Rascal, and everyone else; I am not against the young man, because I don't know personally know him.  However, I would be very careful about this new off-shoot.  I want to make sure, that no one is exploited, or assaulted.  If someone gets hurt, who pays the medical bills??  Will they be a part of the community??  Will they be allowed to keep in touch with their families??  I don't have a dog in this fight; but I don't want anyone to be maimed for life.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/13/2008 at 8:22 AM, Ham said:

As far as the "young man" is concerned.. I think he's brilliant. Graduated Cum Laude..

very intelligent. lots of potential..

WHY IS HE HANGING AROUND A BUNCH OF "GEEZERS" close to three times his age, who want to resurrect some OLD program?

He may be brilliant.. but "unproven".. like you said he is a "young" man.

Why are a BUNCH OF OLD GEEZERS carrying a banner with HIS name on it?

I think these are reasonable questions..

I've been really nice with any characterizations I've made, to this point..

Ham, I don't know him, nor do I know much about his organization.  However, I pray that the young people involved are not exploited, or used for "immortal purposes.".  I hope it works well for everyone involved.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/13/2008 at 2:22 PM, J0nny Ling0 said:

Sighhhh...

But thanks Ham for your acknowledgment of this:

I didn't take advantage of it. I didn't even know it was going on until the end, and I was aghast when an "offer" came my way. I've told this story before, but, here:

I went to HQ to pick up a truck I purchased during the Rock. This was after POP, but before the "Pledge Of Allegiance To Craig" letter. When I checked, and my name was looked up, I was then greeted as "Rev" so and so, and the red carpet treatment began. I was given a nice place to stay during my weekend visit. They put me up in John Linder's "Unit" while he and his Fam were away fishing after the Rock. I was also told that I would be given a "guest buddy" that would "take care of things for me" around the house (unit). That first evening, a very pretty Italian American gal knocked on the door and came in with an awesome pasta dish for supper. She told me that she was there to take care of any particular things that might be needed. I was flattered and felt that this was a very nice thing for them to do. When I got back in later that evening, she was there. When I went to bed, she later came and knocked on the door to my room. I was in my skivvies, and answered the door a crack but was hiding behind the door. She was in a cute "nighty", and she was very beautiful. She asked me if I wanted a full body massage. I was was pretty confused and really shook up. I told her no. She told me that she was staying the room across the hall, and that if I needed anything, anything at all, I could wake her. Then, showing my confusion, I told her abruptly that no I was fine, and that I didn't need anything at all. She was very embarrassed at that point and ashamed. She knew I was married, for I had told her earlier when she'd brought the pasta over. I went to bed, angry, confused, but also half interested in the sex that was offered, but not at all willing to break the vow I had made to God and my wife. It was a very strange time.

And so, I didn't rise to the bait. But I often thought afterward as the duplicity within the ministry came to light, that had I taken up the "offering" that was presented, that it would have been used against me as "emotional black mail". What was weirdest about the whole thing was that it was obvious to me that it had been "set up that way" by somebody that was way "higher up".

No, I was not caught up in that at all. And I do recognize that it existed and that it was bad. I was kicked out of The Way a short time after that. All I can say here is that we were all players, and we all made our decisions to be with The Way during those years and that we would be far better off (IMO) forgiving and moving on. May God bless and heal those who were hurt the worst, and may he heal those who who were hurt to a lesser degree. May God bless and take care of that girl who had been there to be at my "service". Hopefully, she realized the error of her ways also, but I think she did when she was rebuffed that night. Hope it carried her through. And for those who were the Perps, well, all I can say is that I can forgive them, but, when they have to answer to God, it'll be His decision as to what to do with them, not mine. I am fallible, He is not, and I am glad that in my fallibility, I am not the one who has to judge. I don't think any of us are infallible enough to judge someones Eternity.

AND, may young VPW be a person who wants to help and heal and not hurt. Time will tell...

John, your last paragraph is great; I pray that the young man helps people, and doesn't hurt them.  In time, we will find out if he is a MOG, or a monster.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/14/2008 at 9:23 AM, doojable said:

Does anyone ever wonder if these kids sit around and swear to not repeat the mistakes of their past? Their Dad. Their Gramps?

I know I would. It is a possibility, even though the packaging doesn't look like something we would be attracted to.

I'm neither defending nor opposing this whole thing. It's not something I would go for and I wouldn't allow my kids to join, for obvious reasons.

From the little bit that can be seen on that website, I believe the program is not framed properly to be successful in the least. That doesn't mean that the people behind it are evil - they may be trying to take what they thought was a good structure and "do it as it was intended."

Just a thought....

Doo, I would not to join it either; even if I was young again.  I don't understand the purpose of the program; are they training people to speak for God??  If they are, why don't they go to legitimate colleges, and get degrees??  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/14/2008 at 9:08 AM, Ham said:

I'd like to make a small comparison..

what are "nunneries" turning out these days?

Here's one who teaches chemistry and biochemistry:

http://www.odu.edu/webroot/orgs/IA/univers...2122007040147PM

here's one who will likely be able to teach graduate courses in literature:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...750C0A96E958260

.

There are well over a hundred nuns in the u.s. who have a REAL doctorate in Mathmatics..

what are they doing?

Raising up chemists, physicists, engineers, more math people.. among other things. Trying to improve the economy despite insane governments in some parts of the world.. or just helping ordinary people with a career, so they can properly support themselves and their family.

And we were "warned" of the dire consequences of their beliefs.. trinity and all ya know..

The Way Corps was FOR THE MOST PART, an utter, abysmal failure..

what did it produce?

A FEW good apples. I know them too.

But for the most part, I think what came out were not leaders and workers, but trained sycophants, honed in a carefully crafted shell game, a scam where they live on the backs of others. Along with meddlesome tyrants who aren't happy unless they have their nose in every crevice of your life..

and abusers, both sexual and psychological..

Look at gear, loy, lynn, the guy with the tinfoil hat.. what's his name.. and others. They don't know how to do anything else, for the most part. at least lynn did something "secular"- I'll give him that much credit.

"believe to bring MATERIAL ABUNDANCE to yourself (we really mean) the ministry".

Sorry.. to me, this newfangled thing looks the same as the old.

unless they have a five year plan to get these "inductees" through school, or something legitimate, it's doomed..

Ham, I didn't know nuns could be so well-educated.  Thanks for the information.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/15/2008 at 11:48 AM, Ham said:

If this kind of question enrages someone.. it just proves a point.

They haven't thought the thing through..

Ham, I think you are right; they haven't thought it through.  What is the whole point of the program??

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/13/2008 at 1:39 PM, Ham said:

So why would they even CARE what I think..

Not all the time, but often a dose of reality resembles your referenced curdled green expelled material..

the whole crew involved in the new venture.. they KNOW where the kind of organization they want to emlulate went to in the seventies, eighties, nineties..

except for the "coordinator".

My opinion.

the same system they are trying to wring some good out of, provided courtesans for the mogs and mog wanabes.. and thank God- YOU didn't take advantage of it. But how many did? I'm sure they won't come forward into the little "vomitorium" and spill their guts.. probably have wives, families they might destroy..

oh well.. it'll probably eat their stomach out for the rest of their days.

How much does junior really know about the "history of da way"?

we didn't get very far..

Ham, if he wants to know about the history of TWI, he can Google it.  I think he is being used, but he is an adult.  If he allows himself to be used, he has no one to blame but himself.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/13/2008 at 0:43 PM, Twinky said:

Oh, I don't know. Can't be a copy. TWI would never allow such a beat-up old truck as is shown in the first photo.

(Tongue in cheek.)

Think I'd be looking elsewhere for training...

Twinky, perhaps a legitimate Bible College??

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/12/2008 at 11:00 PM, Ham said:

That wasn't my question..

"what have you done to keep history from repeating itself".

The "kid"'s heart is irrelevant.. at least as to my inquiry.

There is no assumption. At least at this point, as far as I'm concerned.

but why should they care for my concerns..

Ham, they may not be concerned, but those of us who been to this rodeo before, are very concerned.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/13/2008 at 8:09 AM, rascal said:

I guess that unless he completely renounced his grandfathers religion, I would have serious doubts as to whether pr not it could be a christian ministry ...no matter what his heart and intentions are.

Prolonged contact with that doctrine appears to warp a person, no matter how good their intentions are. Gosh honestly consider what so many of us turned into in twi.

In my opinion, one needs to start over fresh from a new perspective.

Rascal, I agree.  But, I think this young man may be getting pushed into something that he doesn't know how to deal with.  Does he really want to start another group like his grandfather did, or is he being pressured into doing it??  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/12/2008 at 10:28 PM, J0nny Ling0 said:

Yes, it may seem the same, but how do you know that his heart is the same? That he wants to hurt people as you assume? I mean, if we don't KNOW, then we don't know...

John, you are right; we don't know his heart.  But, I would be very careful about having anything to do with this group.  Once bitten, twice shy.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/12/2008 at 11:40 PM, J0nny Ling0 said:

You guys seem to be consumed by a sickness, which can only be alleviated by the deliverance that comes with FORGIVENESS and compassion, which you don't seem to have the capacity to understand. And so, have fun with your consumption!

JL

John, I disagree with you.  I see a great deal of compassion in Harm's posts.  So many people were hurt under the reign of VPW, I think Ham is trying to warn others of the dangers that the new program might pose.  I think Ham is very compassionate, and I think his posts reflect his compassion, and wisdom.  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/13/2008 at 2:47 AM, WordWolf said:

If someone came forward, a former Branch Davidian,

changed his last name to Koresh,

and announced he was continuing the Branch Davidian legacy,

there would be some interesting discussion.

A LOT of people-those who know SOME of the harm wrought in the Branch

Davidians BY David Koresh-

would be VERY skeptical that this would be good for society.

They'd say that the Branch Davidians were harmful to their own

members, and subtracted from society the FIRST time.

They'd not be interested in seeing it happen AGAIN.

And that's without getting into claims of "slander", or

"what did the NEW Koresh ever do to you"

or "what makes you think the NEW Koresh doesn't have the noblest intentions"

or any of that.

NOW do you see why people are more than a little ready to expect this to go badly?

WW, I don't know if it will end badly or not.  But, I thank God that you, Ham, and others are giving your wisdom, and insights into the new venture.  If only people had given "us" , this information decades ago.  Perhaps, many if "us" would have been fore-warned, and stayed away from TWI.  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 2/12/2008 at 2:41 PM, Ham said:

Hmm.. it would seem to me if they found a "certain" parent organization to sponsor it as some kind of "retreat" or activity, would not the parent organization assume the liability?

And I think some insurance doesn't cover certain types of damages..

Ham, please keep posting.  If one or two people see your posts, and decide not to go into the program, you will have done a lot of world of good.