Here we go again..

[cheranne]

Ham........anyone thrown out in the middle of the night? any newsletters or communication? any graduate?

If it's based on the docvic program, then indoctrinees have to go forward to recruit others.....and cff's class must be the foundation of right teaching, right living??

Is it based on Dr. Fat Rats teachings? "It is written"(according to what?)hate to see that nightmare happen

to other people!

[Ham]

The thing about all of this.. there is no functional "church" to bring these issues up with. It's "loosely" affiliated with likely a half a dozen offshoots..

they must think *they* are *the church* or something like that..

if you "counselled" the *young man* (or rather, the aging morons around him) to just "follow his heart, if gawd called you to do this nonsense, by all means, go for it.."

I don't want anything to do with you. You are for the lack of better words with my understanding.. "nuts"..

if you are just a bystander and merely advertise his little crock of an "adventure" without some kind of honest inquiry, the same words are for you..

sorry, you're not God. I don't answer to you..

didn't you see the results of this kind of effin moronic nonsense the first time around?

[Ham]

Next question.

What are you going to do in twenty, thirty years, when your "staff" and "volunteers" are beginning to show the wear of age?

Sure, pa, mac and a few will get a few "benefits".. without question or explanation. Or it will be something like, "we owe it.. they sacrificed their lives.. and the adversary attacked.. it's da debil's fault.."

and that WILL be the spin, if they get some horrid disease, or God forbid, cancer..

will you merely hide these "issues" from the followers?

I suggest history will repeat itself. You've got a doctrine which supposedly guarantees success.. a "law" that "works" for saint and sinner alike.. mathematical exactness and all.

what will you do when things go "wrong"?

[Ham]

and this is why your organization won't last. Its built on weakness. In my opinion, also a sickness. Laziness..

Proverbs 24:10

So you can't muster up enough strength to bring about a "revival" of old ministry "values".. so what to do? Find a group of "young men and women" who will take up the cause, FOR you..offer them the moon, of course with a few conditions.. while you stay safe, hole up in the mississippi swamp, barking orders from behind the lines..

eventually, they will grow up, and figure out they have no need for you.. and they will strip you dry.. if you survive that long..

you shoulda just gone back to school, bub..

[Ham]

Why else do you think old grampa vicster the first ran crying to geero in scotland? I think PART of the story is true.

In his dying days, he saw the political maneuvering, the subtle behind the scenes negotiations.. in short, his *men* (if one could call it that) were actually growing up, to be just like him.. and he was POWERLESS to seize the reins again. So off he went, to what he perceived as the strongest *man(?)* in the "ministry"..to get things "in line" again..

and his *men*, along with geero, ended up carving up *his* ministry, actually whole groups of PEOPLE, like a thanksgiving turkey..

your day will come, bub..if it lasts that long..

I hope you grow eyes in the back of your head..

Edited July 10, 2009 by Ham

[Ham]

I think this describes a lot of the situation:

http://bible.cc/2_chronicles/13-7.htm

Jeroboam figured out he had no need of Solomon, or of Solomon's son either..

but don't inflate your ego too much.. you are by no means a Solomon, or Rehoboam.. but you'd be surprised how small a hill of beans people will fight over..

Edited July 10, 2009 by Ham

[Ham]

So what are you REALLY producing..

child warriors..

they look innocent and all. But they are vacuous souls..

[Ham]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,970386,00.html

[JeffSjo]

I do believe you are onto something Oh Great Squirrel.

I'd like to have a go-round with the ones that propped these kids up with false prophecies and visions of glory.

It's kind of like a wannabee version of making kids suicide bombers in some respects.

At least with suicide bombings the actions themselves that the kids are trained to do are impossible to be anything other than violence against the enemy. But some of these kids actually are being taught to think that the bullying is some form of love. AAARRRGGGHHH!

YEAH, I REALLY WOULD PREFER A GO-ROUND WITH THE HIGH MUCKITYMUCKS THAT SET V2P2 on course!

[Ham]

Yep. And the only difference between this little "adventure" and the subject of the link.. the sowers guys carry bibles, not ak-47's. I think that could change in a heartbeat..

but to name a kid after a less than admirable character.. raise him to think he's some kind of messiah.. destined to "resurrect" da word and all..

how many false prophecies went on before him..

really, it is no less than child abuse..

in my opinion.

I hold the "elders" at lower regard than him, at the moment.. I think they are despicable..

[Ham]

Out of the mouth of one of your "babes"..

the grandson. V2p2 or whatever yall call him.

he is agreat man of God, and a great person in general. He is one of the most loving, caring, kindest people I have ever met. I heard him yell only once or twice in ten months, and that as because he needed to get someone's attention. I am damn proud to consider him a friend. When it comes to teh word he knows his stuff and tries his best to live a Godly lifestyle. BUT! he does not shove it down anyones throat, he doesnt think he is the end all be all authority on all things God, he is very humble, respectful, and someone who i will aggressively defend.

I may not have been there for the "training".. but I certainly can observe BEHAVIOR. Do you observe anything you remotely consider "troubling"?

As soon as you open the starting gate.. what are his first words.. words of praise, praising a YOUNG INEXPERIENCED KID.

He's your emissary, out singing the praises of vic II.

There is no God in this.. here we have a newest recruit praising the virtues of a MAN.. a boy, at that..

"he is agreat man of God".. there is no question in this kid's head..

as regards to vic II.. in my opinion, you have created a monster..

Edited July 18, 2009 by Ham

[frank123lol]

On e thing,The old guys,know he is a wet nosed kid,They are using him,Question is?Why>

Ole mac cant do it on his own?Dad?Pushing the name recognition,as if the kid needs that,

"He only yelled once,to get someones attention"yep,it always starts out small.

"He is humble>Ok doesnt sound like it to me.

"he knows his suff"Even granddad knew better,he was at least37 before he taught pfal

I know old guys use a kid to get other kids,old guys to you box his ears in private?

Or did you get sucked into the man ogod crap?

[Ham]

That makes a lot of sense.. box his ears in private.. then "reward" him with followers who praise his name..

rewards/punishment.. yep.

it is obvious that mac can't do it on his own. Pathetic.. idea of "witnessing" is trespassing on way property.

and pa.. apparently didn't have enough power to keep rosie, or was it loy, from tossing him out on his rear..

pathetic.

usurped by those who learned the "craft" from his pa (gramps).. I sense a great deal of thinly veiled anger there..

Edited July 18, 2009 by Ham

[Ham]

Doojable brought this up in another thread. I thought it might apply here..

This is the complete quiz.

* Does your group discourage doubts, criticism or ideas that differ from their belief system?

Yes____No____

* Do you tend to rationalize whatever the group does even when it goes against your sense of right and wrong?

Yes___ No___

* Do you often feel exhausted from lengthy group activities, meetings and projects?

Yes___ No___

* Does your group have its own unique words, cliches, slogans, chants, prayers and doctrinal phrases that reinforce the group viewpoint?

Yes___ No___

* Are doubts viewed as a lack of faith, dedication, commitment or disloyalty?

Yes___ No___

* Have "your thoughts" become "the enemy?"

Yes___ No___

* Do you often find yourself doing more and more things in the group or because of group peer pressure that you would not have done on your own?

Yes___ No___

* Does your group publicly humiliate or criticize members?

Yes___ No___

* Does your group have a system of punishments and rewards for behavior?

Yes___ No___

* Group paranoia: Does your group obsessively think other groups or people with different beliefs are out to get them?

Yes___ No___

* Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult?

Yes___ No___

* Do you feel the need to leave in secret?

Yes___ No___

* Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave?

Yes___ No___

* Does your group/belief system think they have/are the only or highest truth, or have the solution for the world’s problems?

Yes___ No___

* Are your leader’s ideas or belief system considered beyond reproach or sacred?

Yes___ No___

* Do you follow a particular individual or belief system that requires unquestioning obedience and loyalty?

Yes___ No___

* ) Do members of your group feel specially chosen, superior, exclusive, elite?

Yes___ No___

* Do you feel the need to save or convert others to your belief system or ideology?

Yes___ No___

* Is your group secretive to outsiders about its inner workings, teachings, activities or beliefs?

Yes___ No___

* Does your group equate purity and goodness to being in your group, and impurity or evil to those outside your group?

Yes___ No___

* Do you place your group’s mission or agenda above your own goals and ideals? Do group interests come before your own interest

Yes___ No___

* Do you find yourself thinking in a we-they, us-versus-them mind set?

Yes___ No___

* Does your group/system have a clear outside enemy?

Yes___ No___

* Do you see less and less of your family and friends who do not belong to your group or who do not subscribe to your group’s belief system?

Yes___ No___

* Does your group use frequent public testimonials, confessions, or sharings that reinforce the group’s mission or agenda?

Yes___ No___

* Is communication within, into and out of your group controlled or censored in any manner?

Yes___ No___

* Does your group criticize, shun, abandon or demean individuals who leave the group?

Yes___ No___

* Do members seek approval or get permission from group leader(s) for personal life choices?

Yes___ No___

* Do you feel pressured to attend meetings, events, lectures, seminars? And do you feel guilty if you don’t attend?

Yes___ No___

* Do you feel pressured to give a portion of your income to the group, or spend money on courses, books or special projects?

Yes___ No___

* Are the group’s financial needs more important than your own economic well-being?

Yes___ No___

* Does your group discriminate against anyone regarding race, gender, belief, or sexual orientation?

Yes___ No___

* Does your group have a totalitarian structure: a strict, top-down centralized control?

Yes___ No___

Do you wonder if you have been in a destructive group?

Do you...

* ...have difficulty forming new friendships and intimate relationships?

Yes___ No___

* ...have low self-esteem, poor self-image or loss of identity?

Yes___ No___

* ...have difficulty making simple decisions and choices?

Yes___ No___

* ...often feel depressed, anxious and nervous?

Yes___ No___

* ...feel isolated, lonely, guilty, cynical?

Yes___ No___

* ...feel like you are just now growing up, becoming a mature adult?

Yes___ No___

* ...have short-term memory difficulties?

Yes___ No___

* ...feel you have nothing to believe in?

Yes___ No___

* ...often feel anger and rage towards the group?

Yes___ No___

* ...have nightmares or unpleasant dreams?

Yes___ No___

* ...find it difficult or impossible to stop mental or other group ritualistic practices?

Yes___ No___

http://www.factnet.org/cults/Toxic_Faith/index.html

Might make a good assessment for those who exit your little "program"..

or is it you don't care..

Edited July 31, 2009 by Ham

[Ham]

Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:52 AM

That was the first post. About two months after I requested information. So that makes it going on about two years.. no real information. One guys shows up and says he'll answer questions, as long as they aren't too hard.. and then slips away into the night.

[mstar1]

Well I wont check any questions that have to do with open or transparent, honest, truthful or forthcoming--Those can immediately be checked right off the list

I will however give them an "A" for hiding well under the bushes, as well as fearfulness.

I'll give them great marks for those, although those arent personally my top priorities of things to look for in a religious group.

....St. Vic Jr. come on over---Where are you?

Show us what you've got--we are all interested in what you have to say- Stand and be counted Dude

[Tzaia]

The reality is that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. There are very few people that I've been acquainted with that can hold their own in that kind of situation. Although one would think that four hours a day of bible study/training, along with four hours a day of disciplined physical labor would adequately prepare someone to hold one's own in a debate or arm wresting competition.

[waysider]

The reality is that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. There are very few people that I've been acquainted with that can hold their own in that kind of situation. Although one would think that four hours a day of bible study/training, along with four hours a day of disciplined physical labor would adequately prepare someone to hold one's own in a debate or arm wresting competition.

I can only speak for myself.

I have no desire to badger the young man.

I would genuinely like to know what the program was like on a daily basis so I could compare it to the program I participated in. Maybe it's completely different. I don't know. Nor will I ever know unless someone from the program steps forward to field questions in a factual, unemotionally tainted manner. Even the most basic of questions such as "what did they eat?", "Did they follow an exercise regimen?" and so forth, go unanswered. It certainly makes one curious why there would be any need for secrecy.

[Ham]

I would not badger him either.. I'd start all over again, calmly with the original set of questions..

what are you doing that's any different from the old ministry?

Are you aware of the abuse that occurred in a "send them home any time you feel like it for whatever reason" environment?

Who is on "staff"?

What exactly are their qualifications?

What kind of safeguards are put in place to protect the "students" from the "teachers"?

Then we can proceed to a few other questions.. there's quite a log jam..

what is the sleep schedule for the "participants"..

how about food? Is the menu good, or is it near to way corps standards of starvation?

Do you REALLY think you are a "great man of God"? If so, why? If not, why do you let your pledgelings refer to you in an inappropriate manner?

Do you require the trainees to sign a hold-harmless statement?

well.. I don't think the questions are really that hard..

and my questions are not directed to the new "graduate".. but to the ones that are supposedly running the thing..

[Ham]

Although one would think that four hours a day of bible study/training, along with four hours a day of disciplined physical labor would adequately prepare someone to hold one's own in a debate or arm wresting competition.

You would think.

and its supposed to be an "honors" program, at that..

the "best of the best" and all..high achievers.

[mstar1]

he reality is that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy.

Maybe..Id genuinely be interested in talking to the "Great Man of God"...I talk to just about everyone I meet about their spiritual beliefs eventually...normal people, "important' people--It makes no matter to me....Some of it is very interesting and enlightening, some of it is completely nuts--- but I do give them the opportunity to speak. In some manner or another I learn something from it all.

Some of it is really extraordinary stuff BUT I have never before heard anyone (except in way circles)refer to themselves as some great one, even the higher ups in well known organizations. I have also found very very few people in life that remain so hidden and secretive as way folk or now the SOWERS. Why is that?

Whats the big deal? and what exactly are they afraid of if "God" indeed is on their side?

All the badgering in the world wouldnt change whatever great thing that they have found if its genuine---If its just a concoction of course it will be laid bare in short order...so far they arent even willing to talk or be open. As an organization on the free market with big claims they have opened themselves up to honest inquiry.

If they refuse to acknowledge and answer simple questions it says much more about them, than all the badgering in the world could ever lay on them

[Ham]

and the kid who apparently runs this thing.. I think he is just as inept and unprepared. I don't think he had a clue of what the "elders" were dragging him into..

so they want to know what kind of reception they will get in the "world".. I think they found out. There will be many, many questions.

"Oh.. that's nice. Who is your group affiliated with.." Oh, nobody in particular.. "who did you say is on staff?" well, there's me.. "They were trained by who?" oh, just spent a few years in a work study program on a farm in Ohio..

[Tzaia]

Ok, let me reframe that - it might appear that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. However, four hours a day of disciplined physical labor along with careful eating over a period of nearly a year would probably make someone a winner on the biggest loser. Why doesn't the guy just start a fat farm? Now that would be a transforming experience.

[waysider]

Ok, let me reframe that - it might appear that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. However, four hours a day of disciplined physical labor along with careful eating over a period of nearly a year would probably make someone a winner on the biggest loser. Why doesn't the guy just start a fat farm? Now that would be a transforming experience.

Have you seen the photo of these kids?

I don't think any of them need a "fat farm".

[Tzaia]

Have you seen the photo of these kids?

I don't think any of them need a "fat farm".

"These kids" don't need a fat farm - I'm just saying that the regimen might actually produce real transformation rather than package free labor under the guise of spiritual enlightenment.