Here we go again..

[WordWolf]

In the spirit of fairness, I am posting this link which does clearly show that SOWERS is a product of the CFF organization.

There is also some rather vague information regarding their fellow laborer program.

One of the current members, Nathan, has posted here recently.

It does not appear to resemble the old FLO, which was a 24/7 "in residence" program.

No matter.

I have no intention of participating.

Nope.

Not for all the millet in ------wherever it is they grow millet.

http://www.cffm.org/doc/links.shtml

That link no more claims SOWERS is a product of the CFF organization than it claims

"Positive Words", Peter Wade's group, is one.

I still see no written connection, unless there's a DIFFERENT page stating so.

[waysider]

That link no more claims SOWERS is a product of the CFF organization than it claims

"Positive Words", Peter Wade's group, is one.

I still see no written connection, unless there's a DIFFERENT page stating so.

I stand corrected.

I should have read their disclaimer a bit closer.

Still, by offering a link, they seem to be, at the very least, presenting an endorsement.

(Disclaimer not withstanding.)

[rhino]

Perhaps they want to maintain some detachment ... legally that might be wise, I dunno. Or maybe the Sowers want to encourage others from outside CFF to volunteer.

but I'm still curious then, about ... practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry.

What ministry would that be?

[frank123lol]

Practice believing?Hmmm...How about it is a verb conotes action.

Star wars time folks either do or do not there is no try Yoda

Bring abundance to you and the ministry Here goes..

Spiritual to you of course Big moola to the "Ministry"

Ministry that is a good one obviously has to go back to cff

Perhaps they(cff) will get enough molla together they will buy The"Way"

out.Then the family farm ect will be thiers once more

The word will rise and expand Peace will rein

Call me cynical if you will The fallacy is if it worked before it will work again.

I personally believe god doesnot need our stinking hand.He will provide in the hearts of the willing.

remember ole vic?You dont put your stinking hand over your heart?

Yet..God has no hand but our hands....

one more...why do these exers or way speak dis gruntles care what we do as they no longer are involved?

Explanation..Leave us alone we have alotta people to fleece..

I know I said one more..Well he got to be a liar..

they dont have two brain cell to rub together... Does this look like I dont?

See loy has no pressence in this new thing See we will do it right this time

Do you really think if the way got bought out He would remain silent?Sooner or later loy will come up to awareness again.As you know he has plenty to say...He KNOWS where the skeletons are buried

The last I promise you for now What the hell does this have to do with a farm in ole mississip?

It always starts out small..

[Sunesis]

I took a look at their Fellow Laborers program and the comments by the kids - God bless them. But, after reading that they joyously spent their time driving people, cleaning, taking care of "material" things for gatherings, etc., the general busywork they "get" to do to bless the body, reading the very similar "wayspeak" - so to speak - I couldn't finish.

Sounded just like us years ago. Like a bad dream. The joy of being a flunkie.

Sounds like TWI is alive and well in CFF. Seeing that keeps me thankful God opened a door for us to leave. I just could never go back to that "lifestyle." Lots and lots of running around "doing" things. Kind of like Martha in the gospels. They're certainly busy, but that's all it is, busy work amongst themselves.

[skyrider]

I took a look at their Fellow Laborers program and the comments by the kids - God bless them. But, after reading that they joyously spent their time driving people, cleaning, taking care of "material" things for gatherings, etc., the general busywork they "get" to do to bless the body, reading the very similar "wayspeak" - so to speak - I couldn't finish.

Sounded just like us years ago. Like a bad dream. The joy of being a flunkie.

Sounds like TWI is alive and well in CFF. Seeing that keeps me thankful God opened a door for us to leave. I just could never go back to that "lifestyle." Lots and lots of running around "doing" things. Kind of like Martha in the gospels. They're certainly busy, but that's all it is, busy work amongst themselves.

The irony of it all......

If I recall correctly, prior to vp wierwille deciding to move twi's headquarters to the wierwille homestead near New Knoxville.......many faithful followers near Troy, Ohio wanted wierwille to "set up shop" there. Well, it didn't happen.....and after Harry and VP bought out Rueben's share, the old farmhouse and property became the epicenter of twi.

And, now...........CFF in Tipp City (just south of Troy) is the re-surging "genuinely-wierwille" ministry of the 21st Century. With an outreach program and now a corps-style training program (with vpw's exact corps principles in place to highlight its goals/direction)......it seems da ja vue (sp?) all over again.

I must admit......I have no dog in this fight......but as a corps grad who followed twi's company line for 24 yrs, I look back and SEE how young and naive one can be while a 58 year old wierwille talks about life, "spiritual matters" and "living for something bigger than yourself" around nightowl campfires.

Yep.......mow the grass, weed the flower beds, clean the dishes, set up tables, string the chairs, shovel the snow, etc. etc.........all in the name of "moving the word over the world" while twi socks away $45 million and trustees go elk hunting, go to the Bahamas, vacation in Florida, etc.

VP Wierwille marketed his pfal product and polished his stage persona......BUT when the cameras were off much of his lifestyle depicted a carnal man, a man of the flesh. And, to this day.......there seem to be pockets of wierwillite followers who live in pfal rewind.

But hey........if some want to go spend time on a farm in Mississippi.....living in a commune-style setting and all, it could have some beneficial value for sure. BUT.........if it's a subtle attempt to resurrect the wierwille adulation WHEREIN CHRIST IS NOT THE HEAD then I'd say that any and all spiritual value just went down the toilet.

[rascal]

BUT.........if it's a subtle attempt to resurrect the wierwille adulation WHEREIN CHRIST IS NOT THE HEAD then I'd say that any and all spiritual value just went down the toilet.

Oh my GOSH Sky rider...you just NAILED it!!!

Geemany...Christ was NEVER the head in twi...twi never had a freaking chance no matter HOW noble our intentions were, no matter how selflessly we gave of ourselves, our resources, our tiome, operated the biblical *principles* no matter how committed we were as dulous...sigh... no matter how much weprayed, tithed, witnessed and studied. It was all doomed to fail.

In all honesty, I`d have to say scripture/knowledge aka the word was the head and what was venerated in twi.

Edited February 15, 2008 by rascal

[Ham]

The idea that a "novice", or "young man" as another poster put it, is coordinating something like this is disturbing to me..

anybody who shuts off communication just because someone asks a few "hard" questions, only gives me a few MORE questions, harder than the ones before. What about their maturity, their meekness.. their real qualifications to coordinate something like this.. if he can't deal with ME, how can he deal with his so called "mentors"? "We oughter have something like lead".. "fine".. "we oughter have something like the rodeo school" "fine"..

I'm not questioning his "heart" or motive. I'm really questioning common sense, at least to begin with.

what are you gonna do if someone REALLY gets hurt..

what REALLY qualified people are you going to have staff the deal..

are you gonna send people home on a whim, or use the "send you home at any time" clause as a threat when they don't "perform"..

what are you gonna do if twi sends you a cease and desist letter..

I wonder if they even CONSIDERED that little possibility. Surely they know twi has been gleefully suing groups just because they have a similar name, or just look like them.. or "borrow" their material..

Mc**&&en knows..

The "young man" has far more to loose than the rest of them.

[skyrider]

Geemany...Christ was NEVER the head in twi...twi never had a freaking chance no matter HOW noble our intentions were, no matter how selflessly we gave of ourselves, our resources, our tiome, operated the biblical *principles* no matter how committed we were as dulous...sigh... no matter how much weprayed, tithed, witnessed and studied. It was all doomed to fail.

In all honesty, I`d have to say scripture/knowledge aka the word was the head and what was venerated in twi.

Rascal,

Yeah.......HOW can anyone hook their train to the Wierwille Loco-motive and, again, travel down those obligatory PFAL Train Tracks and EXPECT A DIFFERENT OUTCOME??

:blink:

Edited February 15, 2008 by skyrider

[Ham]

please don't take this as an insinuation or accusation of any given individual in the organization.

but as the coordinator of a program.. what do you do IF you catch one you trust your life with putting their greasy hands on an enrollee.. turn your head, and act like it was your imagination.. or that it didn't happen? Do you have the REAL character to "deal" with it? "Naw, too negative.. it would NEVER happen.."

Want to bet?

If you can't "deal" with it.. even just the POSSIBILITY.. you're not ready by a long shot, in my opinion.

Similar incidents happened in the parent organization. People either turned their heads, said nothing, ingnored it, or they lost their heads.

If one thinks these questions are hard and mean, consider that the questions on the other end of a witness stand are a heck of a lot "harder".. and one finds themselves forced to answer, in many cases.

ask rosie, loy..

Hopefully, I'm almost done here..

:)

If I didn't care, I wouldn't say a damn thing..

[Ham]

If this kind of question enrages someone.. it just proves a point.

They haven't thought the thing through..

[mstar1]

HOW can anyone hook their train to the Wierwille Loco-motive and, again, travel down those obligatory PFAL Train Tracks and EXPECT A DIFFERENT OUTCOME??

thats was my main consideration , although I didnt voice it very well, immediately when I saw the Sowers sight,

It seems like a fools errand to attempt again something that has shown by its history to be headed directly to nowhere

[Bramble]

What kind of financial help will they provide one of their students who gets injured while working on the Sower's Farm? Farm work and equipment can be dangerous. Even chopping veggies in the kitchen--a slip of the knife--can cause injury that requires a doctor's care.

Your negative believing caused it, go home?

[mstar1]

but as the coordinator of a program.. what do you do IF you catch one you trust your life with putting their greasy hands on an enrollee.. turn your head, and act like it was your imagination.. or that it didn't happen? Do you have the REAL character to "deal" with it? "Naw, too negative.. it would NEVER happen.."

Thats an honest question, if I wanted christian or spiritual education for myself or my children I would hope that the organization at the very least would be upfront and honorable about its policies, reviews and checks, curriculum--everything.. Even without the bad history --Its highly suspect and just plain a bad idea to entrust these types of decisions to an unproven 24 year old.

[J0nny Ling0]

HOW can anyone hook their train to the Wierwille Loco-motive and, again, travel down those obligatory PFAL Train Tracks and EXPECT A DIFFERENT OUTCOME??

I have a friend from India, who, after all of the big POP/TWI melt down, just continued on. He didn't care that he didn't have copyrighted PFAL materials to continue with. He just taught PFAL live, and would send me e-mails over the years and share of the deliverances the hungry people there were experiencing. My friend is a pure as the driven snow, it seems (I know he has sin nature like all of us), and has lived his life above board and openly before the people in India to whom he ministers. Sometimes, as if he was in a "time warp", he would tell me in personal e-mail letters about "commissioning the WOWs" and things that were so like The Way when he and I were involved in The Way. And all of this many years after The Meltdown.

The OUTCOME he and the people there have experienced has been nothing but joy and deliverance for large amounts of people there. I am certain that he has gone beyond PFAL as far as doctrine is concerned, but I can see the roots of The Way in his teachings and sharings. I have read many a letter of testimony about people healed of blindness, lameness, cancer, alcoholism, demon possession, and all kinds of other things. It's like what we all hoped we were going to see on a huge scale when we got involved in The Way, but only saw in "snatches" from time to time. I think that a large difference between Here (The West) and There (India) is that the people there seriously EXPECT to receive from God when they learn that healing and deliverance is available. And I believe (my opinion), that the people over There are far more spiritual minded than we "scientific minded" westerners. They don't seem to be as "bound by logic" as we Westerners.

And, there have been many Americans that I know who used to be in The Way, who have gone over to India to spend time with my friend, and have come back full of joyous tales of God's deliverance and Love that they experienced amongst our Indian Christian Brothers and Sisters. The name of Jesus Christ is revered amongst them, and the examples of Jesus in the gospels are expounded upon to a greater degree than with us when we were in The Way. But many of the basic teachings that we learned in PFAL are there, and it has been a blessed "outcome....."

Is this "young VPW" ministry going to be the same as my friends? Probably not. But since I don't know this young fella, I am certainly NOT going to judge him and decide that "he is probably going to hurt people." The outcome could very well be different and it could be a blessing to many people.

Edited February 15, 2008 by Jonny Lingo

[skyrider]

thats was my main consideration , although I didnt voice it very well, immediately when I saw the Sowers sight,

It seems like a fools errand to attempt again something that has shown by its history to be headed directly to nowhere

Other corps-style training history??....

.....Didn't the Canadian corps thing run into government/zoning/visa issues and got canned?

.....Didn't the Gartmore corps thing run into policies/ego/money/??? issues or whatever?

.....Now, this mcmxllxn/wierwille "corps" training starts in yet another ISOLATED situation..... :blink:

[skyrider]

I have a friend from India, .....

<snip>

Is this "young VPW" ministry going to be the same as my friends? Probably not. But since I don't know this young fella, I am certainly NOT going to judge him and decide that "he is probably going to hurt people." The outcome could very well be different and it could be a blessing to many people.

Jonny......if you're talking about S@ng@t B@ins........yes, I think that he and HIS ministry have done well in bringing deliverance to the Indian people.

But.........apples and oranges, I think that the WIERWILLE ADULATION was left on the doorstep of U.S.A. borders and I haven't heard where he was doing a corps program with the EXACT same principles.

<_<

[tonto]

Even if hearts are pure and intentions are honorable with this group (V2P2 and all the offshoots, for that matter), IMHO there needs to be full disclosure about V1P1 and twi. If the children and grandchildren don't know, Cl*pp and co. certainly do and need to come clean with the followers. If the care and concern is for the individual believers rather than the financial stability of the organization, they'll be honest.

I keep thinking of this in terms of full disclosure...you know, like the cars that went through hurricanes and someone cleans them up and doesn't tell the potential buyer the history of the car...that's dishonest.

edited for clarity...hopefully

Edited February 15, 2008 by tonto

[Ham]

Another thought..

Fast growth can be a highway to hell for some organizations. It's it's own worst nightmare..

the old ministry rapidly outgrew it's ability to provide SOUND leadership at an alarming rate. That's providing it could provide sound leadership to begin with.

These new bunch coming up. They are what.. 21, 22, 23.. 24..

"we gotta BUILD men and women.."

I think they will end up with the same thing as the old.. many leaders as uneducated and unsound as they are inept and unproven.

I saw many in the old days side with evil because it was simply the easier route. Or it felt right. Or it had enough money.

So many of the leaders of this newer offshoot.. are facing the twilight years of their life.. there's not entirely monumental growth in the organization.. loss of other leaders probably remind them of their own mortality..

why are they so desperately afraid, or concerned- that their "legacy" will pass into the night..

I view this new development as a desperate measure.

[Ham]

I think the old ministry raised up a bunch they could BRIBE.. those who couldn't be bought were often run off.. like Geek, Ralph.. others.

MANY of the rest had character with the constitution of water..

fast growth seemed to put a heck of a lot of "bad characters" in charge of things..

they came in by droves from the woodwork..

one guy who managed to do quite a bit of damage at the first just "showed up" at one of the campuses. "Well, if you can come up with the money, you can stay.."

[Ham]

He ended up being a rev at twenty-something..

[frank123lol]

Lets see Jeff m@@n?

[Ham]

How'd you guess??

[frank123lol]

Good memory?

[Ham]

Hmm. I guess we DO "remember" them who "labored(?)" among us..