Here we go again..

[Ham]

I've only asked easy questions, so far..

[J0nny Ling0]

Because he's reviving (or attempting to revive) his grandfather's legacy, which many here beieve is harmful.

Yes, it may seem the same, but how do you know that his heart is the same? That he wants to hurt people as you assume? I mean, if we don't KNOW, then we don't know...

[rascal]

Perhaps something about good fruit from a bad tree?

The doctrine of wierwille allowed evil to run rampant and unchecked. People were hurt, people died from it`s implementation.

Your darned right we have reason to believe that it is harmful, not matter WHO is teaching it or WHAT their heart is like.

Edited February 13, 2008 by rascal

[Ham]

Yes, it may seem the same, but how do you know that his heart is the same? That he wants to hurt people as you assume? I mean, if we don't KNOW, then we don't know...

That wasn't my question..

"what have you done to keep history from repeating itself".

The "kid"'s heart is irrelevant.. at least as to my inquiry.

There is no assumption. At least at this point, as far as I'm concerned.

but why should they care for my concerns..

Edited February 13, 2008 by Ham

[Ham]

I think he has a "counsel" of wierwillian yes men..

tell me if I'm wrong..

[J0nny Ling0]

You guys seem to be consumed by a sickness, which can only be alleviated by the deliverance that comes with FORGIVENESS and compassion, which you don't seem to have the capacity to understand. And so, have fun with your consumption!

JL

Edited February 13, 2008 by Jonny Lingo

[WordWolf]

If someone came forward, a former Branch Davidian,

changed his last name to Koresh,

and announced he was continuing the Branch Davidian legacy,

there would be some interesting discussion.

A LOT of people-those who know SOME of the harm wrought in the Branch

Davidians BY David Koresh-

would be VERY skeptical that this would be good for society.

They'd say that the Branch Davidians were harmful to their own

members, and subtracted from society the FIRST time.

They'd not be interested in seeing it happen AGAIN.

And that's without getting into claims of "slander", or

"what did the NEW Koresh ever do to you"

or "what makes you think the NEW Koresh doesn't have the noblest intentions"

or any of that.

NOW do you see why people are more than a little ready to expect this to go badly?

[rhino]

Good grief rocky ...

First, what is written here is not slander ... slander is spoken ... your didactic tone is humorous since you don't even get that right.

Libel is probably the word you are groping for, but this isn't exactly published for the public. This is all posted on a site about the cult that used the same principles that young vpw chose to copy verbatim. I hardly think young vpw will be exposed to public ridicule as a result of almost private posts here in this little group. And I doubt the current version of libel would include posts buried in a place like GSC anyway.

Marketing Dictionary:

libel Defamatory statement about a person that is published and thereby exposes that person to public ridicule. Libelous statements are not the same as slanderous statements. Libelous statements are printed, malicious (i.e., printed without just cause), and may be true; however, slanderous statements are spoken, not printed, and are not true. A lawsuit charging a

publisher or advertiser

with libel may be lost if it can be proven that the allegedly libeled individual is a

celebrity (in the public eye) and that the statement in question was published because of its newsworthiness

, not because of malicious intent on the part of the publisher or advertiser.

Now all this is based on a very public figure vpw ... whom we all knew and experienced. Most of us memorized those corps principles. What the vpw the second is doing aboslutely relates ... he chose to relate by using the corps principles verbatim. And you say that has absolutely nothing to do with the old way corps?

On this site about the harms of the old cult ... it is quite chatworthy. The parallels couldn't be more obvious. I don't care what young vic might do in his woods ... but opinion of this can be spoken of freely. Questions are being asked based on a few facts.

But mostly it is humorous to me, that another vpw has chosen to use old vic's corps principles. Obviously it must be out of some sort of admiration for old vpw, though if someone else is organizing it, then the use of vpw's name appears to be partly for name recognition and lineage sake.

You are boldly making very specific charges of slander here Rocky ... by which you probably mean defamation. But you are the one apparently doing the defaming of people expressing their opinion. Your attacks and charges are baseless.

Your consistent posted assaults and charges against people here are much closer to defamation, in my opinion.

This thread has absolutely NO connection to TWI, past, present or future.

This thread is about whatever Ham said it was about. It is on a site about TWI and is about "here we go again". If you read Ham's posts, you will see this thread does have a connection to TWI.

Has something changed lately Rocky. I never agreed with most of your positions, but lately your logic seems to have really broken down. Maybe you had a mini stroke ... or too much stress from the elections?

Edited February 13, 2008 by rhino

[Rocky]

If someone came forward, a former Branch Davidian,

changed his last name to Koresh,

and announced he was continuing the Branch Davidian legacy,

there would be some interesting discussion.

A LOT of people-those who know SOME of the harm wrought in the Branch

Davidians BY David Koresh-

would be VERY skeptical that this would be good for society.

They'd say that the Branch Davidians were harmful to their own

members, and subtracted from society the FIRST time.

They'd not be interested in seeing it happen AGAIN.

And that's without getting into claims of "slander", or

"what did the NEW Koresh ever do to you"

or "what makes you think the NEW Koresh doesn't have the noblest intentions"

or any of that.

NOW do you see why people are more than a little ready to expect this to go badly?

Try again.

NO such announcement has been made.

NOBODY here has ANY right, moral or otherwise, to DEFAME a young person who wants to enter Christian ministry.

NOBODY here has produced ANY documentation that said young person intends to carry on, or carry out the legacy of the founder of TWI.

This is NOT about ME or ANY ability (or lack thereof) that I might have to see Ham's point of view.

This is about IDLE speculation ONLY because the name of this young person stirs emotions based on what this young person's grandfather did, NOT based on ANYTHING ANYONE has shown to be AT ALL related to what this young person HAS said or done, intentional or otherwise.

There should be NO question in ANY reader's mind, if said reader still holds ANY respect for what is in the Bible that what HAM and RHINO and GEORGE ST. GEORGE have posted in this thread.

Further, even for those who reject completely ALL of what is in the Bible, it is STILL morally despicable to put forth such idle speculation about the intentions of that young man before that young man has even begun his Christian ministry.

And WordWolf, IF you actually read ALL of what is written in this thread, you will easily recognize it as NOTHING but slanderous idle speculation to defame someone who had no choice of which parents to be born to nor did he have any choice in the name he was given at birth.

Good grief rocky ...

First, what is written here is not slander ... slander is spoken ... your didactic tone is humorous since you don't even get that right.

Libel is probably the word you are groping for, but this isn't exactly published for the public. This is all posted on a site about the cult that used the same principles that young vpw chose to copy verbatim. I hardly think young vpw will be exposed to public ridicule as a result of almost private posts here in this little group. And I doubt the current version of libel would include posts buried in a place like GSC anyway.

Marketing Dictionary:

libel Defamatory statement about a person that is published and thereby exposes that person to public ridicule. Libelous statements are not the same as slanderous statements. Libelous statements are printed, malicious (i.e., printed without just cause), and may be true; however, slanderous statements are spoken, not printed, and are not true. A lawsuit charging a

publisher or advertiser

with libel may be lost if it can be proven that the allegedly libeled individual is a

celebrity (in the public eye) and that the statement in question was published because of its newsworthiness

, not because of malicious intent on the part of the publisher or advertiser.

Now all this is based on a very public figure vpw ... whom we all knew and experienced. Most of us memorized those corps principles. What the vpw the second is doing aboslutely relates ... he chose to relate by using the corps principles verbatim. And you say that has absolutely nothing to do with the old way corps?

On this site about the harms of the old cult ... it is quite chatworthy. The parallels couldn't be more obvious. I don't care what young vic might do in his woods ... but opinion of this can be spoken of freely. Questions are being asked based on a few facts.

But mostly it is humorous to me, that another vpw has chosen to use old vic's corps principles. Obviously it must be out of some sort of admiration for old vpw, though if someone else is organizing it, then the use of vpw's name appears to be partly for name recognition and lineage sake.

You are boldly making very specific charges of slander here Rocky ... by which you probably mean defamation. But you are the one apparently doing the defaming of people expressing their opinion. Your attacks and charges are baseless.

Your consistent posted assaults and charges against people here are much closer to defamation, in my opinion.

This thread is about whatever Ham said it was about. It is on a site about TWI and is about "here we go again". If you read Ham's posts, you will see this thread does NOT have a connection to TWI.

You make ZERO sense. Your ramblings do not even deserve to be addressed on any kind of point by point basis.

... another vpw has chosen to use old vic's corps principles.

Prove this claim.

[waysider]

Here are the principles listed at the SOWERS web site.

http://sowersonline.com/contactus.aspx

[skyrider]

This is NOT about ME or ANY ability (or lack thereof) that I might have to see Ham's point of view.

This is about IDLE speculation ONLY because the name of this young person stirs emotions based on what this young person's grandfather did, NOT based on ANYTHING ANYONE has shown to be AT ALL related to what this young person HAS said or done, intentional or otherwise.

Rocky........some of what you're saying, I understand.......BUT you need to stop and see SEVERAL aspects that trigger a *oh-no-here-we-go-again* response.

Namely:

1) Victor Paul Wierwille..............grandson, Victor Paul Wierwille.

2) EXACT SAME CORPS PRINCIPLES..........indeed a direct connection to twi.

3) Corps Principles trigger a myriad of responses, concerns, skepticism.

4) Website uses vague and non-commital language.

5) Pictures of wood/stacking wood........Grandpa Wierwille was KNOWN for this too.

6) Rural picture in MS.......why so remote and isolated.....twi was into rural setting.

From where I sit.......I can certainly see WHY some posters are highly skeptical......and, in Lingo's thread on this subject many of these issues were discussed back and forth........a thread (link) that Lingo brought forward on the About the Way forum.

Peace.

[rhino]

You make ZERO sense. Your ramblings do not even deserve to be addressed on any kind of point by point basis.

Yet you bothered to quote me, but you changed my quote. This thread does have something to do with TWI. It is mostly about TWI.

And I see you changed your term "slander" to "defamation" as I advised you. Though you did slip slander back in there at the end.

V2P2 (that is just too clever to pass up :)) intending anything abusive is doubtful, but as Ham said, the structure seems straight from the playbook of a system that was abusive. As Waysider's link shows, the principles he is using look quite familiar.

But there are so few details that it is left to idle speculation to figure the rest. Here are a few more pics from Doug's page. I wonder to what ministry they are going to be bringing material abundance. Is this actually a part of TWI or some offshoot?

September through June, and it says it is a 24/7 program. Are the volunteers supposed to be controlled 24/7 for ten months? Four hours work, four hours study .. special projects ... why so sketchy? It could be fun if you owned the place, but what will these volunteers gain for their labor? Do they get to sit around and listen to tapes four hours a day?

[rascal]

You guys seem to be consumed by a sickness, which can only be alleviated by the deliverance that comes with FORGIVENESS and compassion, which you don't seem to have the capacity to understand. And so, have fun with your consumption!

JL

Better by far than being self rightious finger pointing accusers...shrug...Been there and done that in twi, thankful for the deliverance :)

Edited February 13, 2008 by rascal

[rascal]

Further, even for those who reject completely ALL of what is in the Bible, it is STILL morally despicable to put forth such idle speculation about the intentions of that young man before that young man has even begun his Christian ministry.

I guess that unless he completely renounced his grandfathers religion, I would have serious doubts as to whether pr not it could be a christian ministry ...no matter what his heart and intentions are.

Prolonged contact with that doctrine appears to warp a person, no matter how good their intentions are. Gosh honestly consider what so many of us turned into in twi.

In my opinion, one needs to start over fresh from a new perspective.

Edited February 13, 2008 by rascal

[Ham]

You have NO right to voice your PROSPECTIVE concerns about the FUTURE Christian ministry of someone you don't even know.

umm, I happen to know him. I won't print emails. All I say is, the info I got was "sketchier" than the website..

among my concerns..

"what are you doing to prevent the kind of fiasco that the corps program turned out to be"

who's watching those in charge..

what are their qualifications..

or is it going to be a program based on the same kind of slip shod reasoning.. that put people in harms way- and got consequences that they did NOT sign on for..

I asked nicely. Well, as nicely as I could

:)

You did give me a little more info.. Mcm**In's involved with it..

[Ham]

As far as the "young man" is concerned.. I think he's brilliant. Graduated Cum Laude..

very intelligent. lots of potential..

WHY IS HE HANGING AROUND A BUNCH OF "GEEZERS" close to three times his age, who want to resurrect some OLD program?

He may be brilliant.. but "unproven".. like you said he is a "young" man.

Why are a BUNCH OF OLD GEEZERS carrying a banner with HIS name on it?

I think these are reasonable questions..

I've been really nice with any characterizations I've made, to this point..

[skyrider]

But there are so few details that it is left to idle speculation to figure the rest. Here are a few more pics from Doug's page. I wonder to what ministry they are going to be bringing material abundance. Is this actually a part of TWI or some offshoot?

According to the website/slideshow......October 5, 2007 was the Groundbreaking.

Interesting.......doesn't twi celebrate their anniversary on October 3rd (??.....or the first weekend of October each year?)

How many other *similarities* will surface? Surely, the "BRC meeting room" will have a few pictures of Grandpa Wierwille training his dogs or holding a Bible?

But hey.......didn't Evel Kneivel's son and/or grandson want to preserve the legacy of dear ole grandpa?? I mean, what the heck.......it's a free country!

[Ham]

What the "young man" may not realize.. he's gonna outlast these "old geezers" by say, about.. forty or so years.

who's going to be left holding the bag when things go sour?

[Bramble]

Looks like marketing to me--the principles of the program developed by the Mog, and a front man with the same name, his grandchild.

This could be the new MOG they are looking for.

[Ham]

Similarities..

they'll just have to take the first set of folks, kick their a**, and send them home as "zeros"..

just for appearance sakes..

[Ham]

Maybe he hasn't considered.. in twenty or thirty years, the "trainees" will be giving THEIR evaluations.. and it might be in a place like this..

[rhino]

How many other *similarities* will surface? Surely, the "BRC meeting room" will have a few pictures of Grandpa Wierwille training his dogs or holding a Bible?

But hey.......didn't Evel Kneivel's son and/or grandson want to preserve the legacy of dear ole grandpa?? I mean, what the heck.......it's a free country!

Yeah ... he can do whatever he wants ... and we can chatter away Over time you'd hope the memories of the bad part of old vp's legacy might be forgotten, but it seems pretty much etched in stone here.

They are using the "It Is Written" motto as well. By not changing a word, I'd have to imagine that they believe those Corps principles were from God ... and are trying to continue the thing ... presumably minus the profane rantings, sexual indescretions, overbearing personalities ... at least volunteers don't have to pay to come work, except with their time.

It seems he was in fellow laborers last year in Ohio, with Christian Family Fellowship ... apparently involving the Sh*royers, the Cla*pps, and the Gui*gous. I'd guess that is fairly public knowledge, and not something he'd want to hide. So if they are trianing leaders, they must be "rising up" out of the CFF ranks, and that must be the ministry that will be receiving the material abundance these new leaders believe for.

He says Sowers is a full time Christian leadership training program that he will be coordinating. Who knows, maybe they'll be building another large VPW auditorium down there one day.

Edited February 13, 2008 by rhino

[Ham]

According to the website/slideshow......October 5, 2007 was the Groundbreaking

what I find interesting here.. Shr*yer is barely cold in the ground before this little groundbreaking.

Just two months..

[mstar1]

I'd have to imagine that they believe those Corps principles were from God ... and are trying to continue the thing ...

Have they got a logo yet? maybe something like this would work...

[Ham]

If it is a work/study program..

who is going to do the teaching?

what material?

are they gonna run bootleg copies of vic's Thesslonians teachings? Or Romans? Or whatever?

These REALLY are the kind of questions that SHOULD be answered on a web page somewhere.. or a course catalog.

If I had a child considering going to something like this.. I would REALLY REALLY want to have a few HONEST answers..

it reminds me of a scene at a sanitarium in the 1800's.. dropping off a loved one who is just a little confused..

"You'll treat him OK? What are you going to do?"

"Don't worry mahm.. we know what we are doing.. we'll take GOOD care of him.."