I hung in for 5 years waiting for them to own up to the evil inside, but instead I watched the whitewashing erase history from people's minds and experienced hypocrisies to a stunning degree. I left because twi grossly misrepresents itself and its leaders are liars, and I risked death at the hands of the "adversary" to get me and my kids out.
grudge? nah, why would I regret or be angry about wasting 20 years of my life in a donations mill?
Since the 'forgive Twi/VPW' seems to equal 'don't say anything negative about TWI/VPW' I see the forgive TWIers pretty cynically, in the same realm as 'Hush it up so the ministry won't be blamed'.
To be a victim means you weren't believing...In TWI it was worse to be hurt by someone than to be the one doing the hurting.
Bullies were encouraged in TWI--they called it 'leadership'.
Wanted to add--since the forgive TWI/VPW folk seem to stalk one particular woman poster here, they've lost credibility with me.
I don't hold a grudge either. I just keep it warm on the back burner in the unlikely event they might want to partake of their own concoction. But it doesn't really belong to me anymore.
It was largely THEIR recipe, not mine..
I'm not entirely heartless. I don't think anybody should eat it cold..
Maybe I am looking at it differently. I don't think forgiveness has to be an option I entertain. I am a Christian...but I still don't think I either have to or procalim I have not forgiven anyone or anything. I believe its really God's job. I do know how to move on, even without baggage.
I still believe the organization is culpable; I believe I have the right to judge the concepts of acceptable or unacceptable...but I don't think I have to forgive, but I also don't think in the long run its my efforts to forgive that will help them.
I am not sure that you have to go to this place of forgiveness to be healed and move on. I KNOW I pity them. I feel sad for them. I don't feel a victim anymore - I did at first...but my strength does not come from forgiving them...(am I God to know all the hearts of these men and women anyhow) no. So I just move on and make wiser choices in the future.
People should fully warned about The Way and their dishonesty today as an on going cult. No doubt about it. The dishonesty and idolatry rampant within it, all over it, and promoted by it, is simply devilish. But for me, holding a grudge about a past wrong toward me is not productive. But that's just me. But by all means, warn others of the phony baloney that The Way is. I'd like to see some of my old friends "still in" finally come to their senses and wake the hell up and just leave. But, I think old Harvey P, my old neighborhood friend, is hopelessly stuck and hanging on while still hurting people with his false doctrine and legalistic crapola...
I'm reminded of the phrase, "wise as serpents and harmless as doves."
Wisdom demands that I NOT forget what happened.
For me to be harmless, I'd have to also warn others.
I also see how it can be possible to "be angry and sin not" in this case. I believe that a lot of what many of us saw, and what others were subject to, demands that we get really, REALLY angry about it. In fact, a good argument could be made that it would be sin to NOT get angry.
Does the anger have to be all consuming? No.
Does the anger necessarily mean that there is bitterness? No.
Yeah....Old Harvey was a neat guy back in high school and in our first twig. Very kind hearted and giving. Funny, we used to call him "Old Harvey", or, at least me and a couple others did. I guess when he began to move on up the pipeline, he requested that he be called "Harve". But, I never did, just cuz, I guess. Maybe one day he'll leave too...
Whats really great to me is a lot of us could not (really did not have the mental cognitive ability) to sort this out the way we can now. I am impressed by how well most I "hear/read" here have reasoned and carefully thought about all this...Plato and Aristotle would be proud.
You know... if twi was some big corporation who was causing harm by the product it put out (like, say lead paint in toys or asbestos in the insulation) and they continued to do it, despite several lawsuits being aimed at them, despite folks trying to speak out publically and privately, we would be applauded for speaking out about the harm that's been done and is continuing to be done!!!
Just because they disguise themselves as a Christian group, and because some of us on these boards are practicing Christians, should not give them a pass on the harm they inflict to this day!!
Dooj, I agree. Sometimes it takes getting very angry to be motivated to make a change.
I'm not sure it takes getting angry to make a change. I think that seeing certain wrongs committed should make a person angry. The anger is justified. What the person does with that anger is the key.
You know... if twi was some big corporation who was causing harm by the product it put out (like, say lead paint in toys or asbestos in the insulation) and they continued to do it, despite several lawsuits being aimed at them, despite folks trying to speak out publically and privately, we would be applauded for speaking out about the harm that's been done and is continuing to be done!!!
Just because they disguise themselves as a Christian group, and because some of us on these boards are practicing Christians, should not give them a pass on the harm they inflict to this day!!
I don't think those who want to "give them a pass" say that because they claim to be a Christian
group. David Koresh's "Branch Davidians" and Jim Jones' "Peoples Temple" don't get defended
here, and they-supposedly- were Christian groups as well.
I think the "give them a pass" "stop warning people" advocates are saying that for one reason
and one reason only:
They have fond personal memories of twi,
and all discussions of bad experiences, wrong doctrine, and so on,
interfere with their ability to maintain BLOODLESS fond personal memories,
and they would rather SILENCE THE ONE TELLING THE TRUTH
and warning people than to adjust their thinking to say
"I had many fond memories-but some people's experiences were horrific."
That's how I see it.
Me, I DO have some fond memories, but acknowledge that while I was making fond memories
in one place, others were having horrific experiences in another place.
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rascal
It`s clearly the only moral and ethical thing to do.
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excathedra
i don't hold a grudge
i also don't think it's wrong to talk about what i've been through and how i feel about it
does that make any sense ?
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potato
I hung in for 5 years waiting for them to own up to the evil inside, but instead I watched the whitewashing erase history from people's minds and experienced hypocrisies to a stunning degree. I left because twi grossly misrepresents itself and its leaders are liars, and I risked death at the hands of the "adversary" to get me and my kids out.
grudge? nah, why would I regret or be angry about wasting 20 years of my life in a donations mill?
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cheranne
I feel we should WARN society of this is not what they go in thinking it is,at all.
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Bramble
Since the 'forgive Twi/VPW' seems to equal 'don't say anything negative about TWI/VPW' I see the forgive TWIers pretty cynically, in the same realm as 'Hush it up so the ministry won't be blamed'.
To be a victim means you weren't believing...In TWI it was worse to be hurt by someone than to be the one doing the hurting.
Bullies were encouraged in TWI--they called it 'leadership'.
Wanted to add--since the forgive TWI/VPW folk seem to stalk one particular woman poster here, they've lost credibility with me.
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Ham
I don't hold a grudge either. I just keep it warm on the back burner in the unlikely event they might want to partake of their own concoction. But it doesn't really belong to me anymore.
It was largely THEIR recipe, not mine..
I'm not entirely heartless. I don't think anybody should eat it cold..
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Ham
I'd just toss it out the side door here, but with the EPA watchdogs around here.. I wouldn't dare..
the local landfill won't take it either..
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washn'wear
Maybe I am looking at it differently. I don't think forgiveness has to be an option I entertain. I am a Christian...but I still don't think I either have to or procalim I have not forgiven anyone or anything. I believe its really God's job. I do know how to move on, even without baggage.
I still believe the organization is culpable; I believe I have the right to judge the concepts of acceptable or unacceptable...but I don't think I have to forgive, but I also don't think in the long run its my efforts to forgive that will help them.
I am not sure that you have to go to this place of forgiveness to be healed and move on. I KNOW I pity them. I feel sad for them. I don't feel a victim anymore - I did at first...but my strength does not come from forgiving them...(am I God to know all the hearts of these men and women anyhow) no. So I just move on and make wiser choices in the future.
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rascal
Well said Wash n Wear!
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frank123lol
'We gave our lives to anser Gods call" Pressed down
Now what did we give to the way?Servitude money and of course 20 25 30 years of our lives
for what a stinking cult?
That time is gone.I hope like hell God blesses with a whole lot in our time remaining.
Grudge do not think so just"We wont get fooled again" The Who
Peace all
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J0nny Ling0
People should fully warned about The Way and their dishonesty today as an on going cult. No doubt about it. The dishonesty and idolatry rampant within it, all over it, and promoted by it, is simply devilish. But for me, holding a grudge about a past wrong toward me is not productive. But that's just me. But by all means, warn others of the phony baloney that The Way is. I'd like to see some of my old friends "still in" finally come to their senses and wake the hell up and just leave. But, I think old Harvey P, my old neighborhood friend, is hopelessly stuck and hanging on while still hurting people with his false doctrine and legalistic crapola...
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excathedra
awwww harvey and peggy :(
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doojable
I'm reminded of the phrase, "wise as serpents and harmless as doves."
Wisdom demands that I NOT forget what happened.
For me to be harmless, I'd have to also warn others.
I also see how it can be possible to "be angry and sin not" in this case. I believe that a lot of what many of us saw, and what others were subject to, demands that we get really, REALLY angry about it. In fact, a good argument could be made that it would be sin to NOT get angry.
Does the anger have to be all consuming? No.
Does the anger necessarily mean that there is bitterness? No.
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J0nny Ling0
Yeah....Old Harvey was a neat guy back in high school and in our first twig. Very kind hearted and giving. Funny, we used to call him "Old Harvey", or, at least me and a couple others did. I guess when he began to move on up the pipeline, he requested that he be called "Harve". But, I never did, just cuz, I guess. Maybe one day he'll leave too...
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excathedra
i knew him too as harvey. i don't think harve sounds more respectable ??????
--
ps. i don't have anyone to warn. hope i'm not a sinner ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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rascal
Dooj, I agree. Sometimes it takes getting very angry to be motivated to make a change.
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Ham
Was he the same character as the reputed six foot wabbit?
:)
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washn'wear
Whats really great to me is a lot of us could not (really did not have the mental cognitive ability) to sort this out the way we can now. I am impressed by how well most I "hear/read" here have reasoned and carefully thought about all this...Plato and Aristotle would be proud.
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TheHighWay
You know... if twi was some big corporation who was causing harm by the product it put out (like, say lead paint in toys or asbestos in the insulation) and they continued to do it, despite several lawsuits being aimed at them, despite folks trying to speak out publically and privately, we would be applauded for speaking out about the harm that's been done and is continuing to be done!!!
Just because they disguise themselves as a Christian group, and because some of us on these boards are practicing Christians, should not give them a pass on the harm they inflict to this day!!
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doojable
I'm not sure it takes getting angry to make a change. I think that seeing certain wrongs committed should make a person angry. The anger is justified. What the person does with that anger is the key.
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WordWolf
I don't think those who want to "give them a pass" say that because they claim to be a Christian
group. David Koresh's "Branch Davidians" and Jim Jones' "Peoples Temple" don't get defended
here, and they-supposedly- were Christian groups as well.
I think the "give them a pass" "stop warning people" advocates are saying that for one reason
and one reason only:
They have fond personal memories of twi,
and all discussions of bad experiences, wrong doctrine, and so on,
interfere with their ability to maintain BLOODLESS fond personal memories,
and they would rather SILENCE THE ONE TELLING THE TRUTH
and warning people than to adjust their thinking to say
"I had many fond memories-but some people's experiences were horrific."
That's how I see it.
Me, I DO have some fond memories, but acknowledge that while I was making fond memories
in one place, others were having horrific experiences in another place.
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waysider
I think that pretty much says it for me as well.
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J0nny Ling0
No, but he did eventually become the vice president of The Way under Rosalie Riverbark, the "I Can Do Person....."
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Son of the Master
Life is spiritual and we are in a spiritual battle.
I really didnt read the thread on forgiveness, but the bible and Jesus in the bible says to forgive unconditionally.
Unforgiveness like the topic of being "offended" are a trick of the devil to get Christians to focus on and be "in the flesh."
There is one ex-leader when I still hear his name, I have to battle with my flesh not to get angry.
Can I walk in love and hate my brother? No
As for my old friend Harvey, he is my old friend, too.
I dare not judge a man who once blessed my life and broke bread with.
Loyalty can be an ugly and binding thing. That is what I believe keeps him around.
Also, many old leaders were afraid to go out and get real jobs.
I guess, he is still trying "to be the man he knows to be."
sad. He and P need prayers for deliverance.
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