Are the Dead Alive Now?

[brideofjc]

OK Gang,

I will give a reply, addressing everything you want addressed.

I BELIEVE...

There is a Ressurection - Actually I believe there are 2 Ressurections but I will keep this simple. I believe that when a soul (Body) dies it is dead. Literally and Figuratively. I am very specific about the soul - Man Became a Living Soul, right? So, what was he before that?

Dirt, Right?

The Bible says in Genesis Dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return. So I believe when a soul(body) dies it goes back to what ADAM was before God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Did Adam have conscienceness before that? I don't think so. I believe the EXACT same thing happens to Man (Adama) when it dies. No consienceness. But at the Ressurection(s) all that a dead soul(body) was will be revived - almost like that original Adam the first time, just like Jesus at His ressurection. He was dead, no thought in his head those 3 days he was dead.

That is what I believe. And to the folks RUNNING to I and 2nd Peter, watch the word "when" about when Jesus went and preached to those spirits in prison. I clearly says he did this when the ark was preparing - being built.

So There.

Rachel

Rachel, you're a real card. But be careful, someone else may have the ace up their sleeve and TRUMP you! LOL. You made me

laugh [with you, not at you] with your last paragraph because that was exactly where I was headed.

But and however...there is always one or more of these. Look at the wording in 1 Peter 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which (Spirit) [,] also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (semi-colon) Which [better translated as "who"]

sometime were disobedient when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The text does not state that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison during the days of Noah. The text states that "the spirits (who are now in prison) were

disobedient during the days of Noah, which is why they didn't make the boat on time. LOL.

So Rachel, how if as you state...the dead know nothing....could Jesus (by the Spirit) go and PREACH (now that takes some thought action) to spirits who

were in prison. How did they hear if they know nothing? Dear sister, your confusion lies in the fact that you are not separating body and soul. To call a human being a "living soul or a dead soul" is what I would call using a colloquialism. The people of past eras who tried to be biblical, sometimes wanted

to speak like the Bible spoke...and so they adopted some of the phrases such as from the account in Acts and Paul's shipwreck, where the text states

that all 116 SOULS stayed alive. They stayed alive (so to speak) because the body did not perish by drowning and therefore the SPIRIT didn't leave the vessel that it was housed inside of. Oft times, when a phrase is adopted, after some time has passed, the origins become dim and the phrase begins to

take on other meanings that were never intended. This is one of them I do believe.

You are making them one and the same and therefore when the body dies, you are equating that the soul is dead. In a way, you are right in that the soul is no longer evident because the flesh is now dead. In the first place the body is merely a vessel that carries the important things, i.e. our spirit which is what formed our SOULS in the first place. Another aspect one can look at is OUR SOUL is the physical expression of OUR SPIRIT. You cannot see your spirit, but you can see and hear the manifestation of said same by listening to yourself or other's souls. When the vessel that is carrying our spirit dies, the spirit leaves and of necessity one can say that the SOUL DIED. The manifestation of our spirit DIED, or left the immediacy of the earthly realms, but since the SPIRIT is eternal, the soul doesn't really die either. Because if you could have the power to inject that spirit into another piece of flesh... guess what? The flesh would come alive and VOILA! a manifestation of SOUL would become evident.

This is why when God, who is SPIRIT, breathed into....Adam...HE BECAME A LIVING SOUL. God, who has the power to inject spirit into a hunk of

flesh, breathed into that piece of flesh that we later came to know as Adam and then the SPIRIT became manifest or evident as SOUL and we called that

SOUL, ADAM! Conversely, when ADAM BREATHED (spirit) his last breath, the manifestation of his spirit (that is SOUL) LEFT when the SPIRIT left. It left

the vessel lying dead on the bed and which was then buried back into the earth from which it came and soon melted back into the earth.

Rachel, this is by no means a judgment of you, nor of any others nor even of myself. But I would highly recommend taking at least a beginners

Greek class. Sad to say, maybe because of the dumbing down of America...most people do not understand even their own language. I know I

didn't. I thought I did until I began to take Greek class in Bible college. THEN WERE MY EYES OPENED! lol I then of all things began to understand and appreciate my own language and understanding the parts of it, by learning another more complicated and highly inflected language, i.e. Greek.

[Wikipedia:

A colon may also be used for the following: introduction of a definition.

In English, the semicolon has two main purposes:

It binds two sentences more closely than they would be if separated by a full stop/period. It often replaces a conjunction such as and or but. Writers might consider this appropriate where they are trying to indicate a close relationship between two sentences, or a 'run-on' in meaning from one to the next; they might not want the connection to be broken by the abrupt use of a full stop.

It is used as a stronger division than a comma to make meaning clear in a sentence where commas are being used for other purposes. A common example of this use is to separate the items of a list when some of the items themselves contain commas.]

A colloquialism is an expression not used in formal speech, writing or paralinguistics. Colloquialims denote a manner of speaking or writing that is characteristic of familiar "common" conversation; informal colloquialisms can include words (such as "y'all", "gonna" or "grouty"), phrases (such as "ain't nothin'", "dressed for bear" and "dead as a doornail"), or sometimes even an entire aphorism. ("There's more than one way to skin a cat"). Dictionaries often display colloquial words and phrases with the abbreviation colloq. Colloquialisms are often used primarily within a limited geographical area.]

[brideofjc]

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If I am reading this right, it says when God FORMED man from the dust of the ground, right? Then He breathed into him the breath of life, and THEN he became a LIVING soul.

I do not read anymore into this, but you may feel free to believe whatever you choose. Have at it.

If you will take the time to research the word soul in the bible, you will see that it is talking about a literal body. You have to make your own choices on this - I have made mine. In RachelWorld, Soul=Body. Amen and Amen.

Rachel

RachelWorld? Shouldn't it be GodWorld? Who are you anyway? Shall the clay tell the potter...? Dear Sister, I have!

You need to read and reread 1 Thess 5:23 there are three components to humans...I didn't write it, but the Holy Spirit did. Shouldn't

it be self-evident that your thinking should line up with what the bible says and not that which comes forth from RachelWorld?

[brideofjc]

Roy, I think if you read what I wrote it is apparent that by "going back to what it was" implied being a dead soul.

but talking about the bible being simple you have not deal with the open graves of Matthew 27:52-53

I will not deal with this. My choice, Roy. You can't make me. (Hint>Forgery?)nor have you show us what the last trump is

Forgery? Does this come forth from RachelWorld? My Greek NT has what is called a "Textual Apparatus" which is

a series of scholarly notes of various translational readings, listing them according to Papyrii number, lists Lectionary notes, highlights

differences such as choice of Greek words in the variant mss, etc. It does list Mt. 27:52-53, and that it concurs with Ezek. 37:12.

So then you must be prepared to concur that Ezek 37:12 is also a forgery as well. In the Greek text proper above, it does not put

brackets around these verses to indicate a "traditional rendering" and therefore, the scholars seem to concur that it is a valid verse.

Did this come forth from WayWorld. VeePee seemed very breezy as well as when he didn't like certain verses of Scripture, he was all

too free in claiming it was a forgery as well. If your idea has come forth from Wrongsville, Rachel, you should be scared...I mean really

scared. If you are being led by the Holy Spirit, He should be taking you to the point that you will concur with the vast majority of other

scholars. It is when we end up by ourselves with the lone translation that we should look around and wonder how we got there. If,

however, you can cite other scholary opinions on the subject of these verses being a forgery, I will be happy to link to wherever

you find it. Otherwise, dear sister, you are out there all by yourself. Please look around and realize you are standing alone.

[brideofjc]

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

ok either this is the last trump or the last trump is not what we think it is

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

o no here another trump after the last so either we each have our own last trump making God's Word more personal or Revelation 1:10 was not the last trump

Hey, Roy....these verses contain a figure of speech called "simile" which means that the key words that mark it off are

either "like" or "as", and it is describing or modifying that which goes before.

"and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," and

"and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;"

This merely describes how the great voice sounded, Roy. It does in no way state that it is the last trump.

Blessings

[brideofjc]

T-Bone when you write, you really write!

Interesting thread…I used to believe in a threefold composition of man [body, soul & spirit – a trichotomist view] – but now lean toward a twofold model [body & soul – a dichotomist view], in keeping with the Hebrew thought of seeing the unity of God's creation. Genesis 2:7 God formed man of the dust of the ground [material] and gave him the breath of life [immaterial] - man became a living soul.

And yet, one must deal with the Apostle Paul's writing and who I believe was led by the Holy Spirit when he wrote 1 Th 5:23

and one could argue the point in the differences between Hebraic and Greek theological systems, but Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and would

have been very familiar with what today we call the dichotimist view and he would also have been very familiar with the trichotomist viewpoint as well since

his family was part of the diaspora and so Paul was Hellenized. Yet when he wrote Thess, he could have chose to introduce Hebraic thoughts on the

subject, yet the HS led him to pen the Tri view.

On the contrary view, while the normal state of man is admittedly a union of soul and body, the possibility of disembodied conscious existence is firmly held, both on the analogy of God's existence as pure spirit [man being made in his image] and on the basis of such passages as Hebrews 12:23 and Revelation 6:9-11…

But what exactly is that "union"? I do not believe that Elwell means it to be the one and the same. But the union occurs because

the spirit of man had entered into the flesh thus producing the soul of mankind. Because if humankind is made in the image of God, as listed above,

"pure spirit", then it must needs be that there is also a "spirit" inside of mankind. Thus 1 Th 5:23 holds true. What two parts united to form the soul?

Was it not spirit entering into the flesh? Therefore, it should be noted that body and soul cannot be the same because one came first and then the other.

I would also add that the writers of the first testament didn't have all of the pieces, but had to wait for the fulfilling of the Scripture and the coming of

the Savior. It was at Pentecost that re-introduced the HS to humankind and then the understanding that humans were really three part beings. Just

like even now we also, although we have a fuller revelation than what Isaiah or Jeremiah had, we also are still looking through darkened glass at the

concepts of eternity. I am sure we will all be thrilled when the full revelation is finally understood. Blessings.

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Rachel Ysrael, brideofjc, T-Bone and others who are reading alone or adding to these tread that got me caught in the debate

God loves us all my dear friend

I see a debate to whether man is two fold or three fold being

I believe man is body and soul with the seed of God in him

For Adam it was created with the image of God but sin cause the seed to die before its time

verses to deal with

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Plant life came from seeds in the ground and this is where the body came from dust

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ok man came from dust like plants and our bodies break down to dust

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

going back to what it was before

Genesis 1:6, And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Man is basically dust and water divided by the way God formed man or grow man into man

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The waters brought life forth and we all taking about animal life then we must asked our self how our life is like animal life

its breath life which in the blood

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

A doubling statement to say life came out of the waters

now let us do some thinking if animals go back to dust and so to we, how are we alike?

While a cat, dog, or even human grows in a womb it is like they came out of water when they were born

even a egg yoke grows to a chick in water like form inside the egg

but let us move forward

Genesis 1:25 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Ok we have saw everything comes from a seed like form and can only make its kind

so flesh kind makes flesh kind and spirit kind makes spirit kind - unless -

spirit kind comes out of flesh kind

look dust kind makes dust kind or dust makes dust but the dust can be used to form a greater kind but it still dust that it was made from

so from the dust seed in water can come breath life

can a breath life in flesh have the seed of spirit come out of it

Genesis 1:26, 27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Man was made to rule other animal life - greater than a dog - to be made in God’s image but it does not say how long this will take or when it will be done - or when the creation would be done

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ok the day Adam ate of this tree a part of him had to die but that does not mean the part was ready to come out of Adam or that it was done

it does not mean that this part was lost – it just was no longer like before not growing and living

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

before this image had become dead by sins

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

A change from darkness to light or from death to life

Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

Jesus talks about planting seeds a lot and we all so read about Christ in us

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

all of these verses must be put together to get a understanding as whether man is two fold, three fold, or two fold with the seed to become God kind

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

others verses that must be understood in light of dead

Ezekiel 37:11, 12, 13 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

add these to Matthew

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Many can call this a lie or that is was added but I believe it is true and it happen

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

You can call this a vision but I believe it is real or a figure of speech it does not matter to me because when you line all the verses together you see it is more

for spirit to show itself to us it must appear like a vision

the whole book of Rev would be like a vision that a man saw and wrote like the trumps

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

If Christ sat on these man while these man were on the earth it was the second coming of Christ to them

First being when they talk with Jesus in the flesh - second the day of Pentecost - third still to come for then when wrote

For Jesus first came to me in stories I read - then I receive the gift of holy spirit as Christ came down to enter my heart as a seed form of spirit - third time still to come

making God’s word more personal

I will end now

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

yes we must deside what the Lord day is -- which might add too may verses this time

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[cman]

Well...lol....good stuff there folks.

It's kind of like a book tossing tournament though.

Not the same as the coming and meeting Christ in the air without a doubt.

Knowing cause we are lead by the spirit, and not that we are right or wrong.

But that we are being lead into all truth, world without end.

Now is the time, or can be, or when we die.

Dieing before we die is evident in Romans through Thessolonians.

Documented in Revelations.

All in the Lord's good time, not ours.

Then we begin to recognize those trumpets, angels, flames...

and interpret.

Getting wisdom and knowledge. Slowly and quickened too.

And see this Christ of whom we are and have been and will be.

And dead will have no meaning like it does now like death.

But life, cause things will be seen and experienced.

Which may be the opposite of what is thought now.

[Ham]

I dunno. I don't think we were ever really dead at any one given time..

[sirguessalot]

strange

as intimately familiar as i have become with the topic of death and dying since leaving twi

i am finding it more and more difficult to express my opinions on the matter without coming across as overly critical

...though i also often find myself where self-preservation ends and the need to let out a loud groan begins

so i will at least groan a bit here...and offer a very general pass through how the afterlife might be viewed from the various stages of faith...

1) the afterlife is a magical place where my egoic wants and needs will be met. It is extra-ordinary, supernatural, 1-dimensional, and based on my subjective impulses and limited to my imagination. The end of my own personal suffering is a primary element. There is no differentiation between subjectivity and objectivity.

2) the afterlife is a mythic place that is based on a the specific storyline that is shared by my exclusive group. It is typically ethnocentric, cliche, metaphorically challenged, and limited to 2-dimensional concepts of the past and future. Justice for our suffering is a primary element. This is more-or-less a group version of the previous selfish view of the afterlife.

3) the afterlife is a rational place where the impact of my life will carry on according to this cause-and-effect universe and objective, tangible, provable realities, but not according to myths and magic. Objective 3-dimensional truth is a primary element.

4) the afterlife is a relative place where no one can really know for sure about. How we came to our beliefs and languages about the afterlife is to be deconstructed, dismantled and examined. Equal rights for all views of the afterlife is a primary element.

5) the afterlife is an everpresent and ordinary field that can be experienced now as the ground and essence of all our being. We return to Spirit..and Spirit is this infinite empty space that both body and soul exist in. Space is original and final nature. Dreams, visions, and altered states of consciousness are examined as the texture of the path towards radical emptiness. Actual practice and actual experience and actual transformation is a primary element.

6) the afterlife is everything...the sum of all previous views...the unity of form and formlessness...the unity of The One and The Many ..."the Mind of Christ" (naked consciousness) ...so radically presently inclusive as to be able to say that "the dead have never died and are with us now and forever in the infinite memory of God." This is a view that God is in everyone, and everyone is in God. This is the perspective that delivers a truly radical degree of grace…an incredible hope...a peace on earth...a goodwill towards all...yada yada.

btw...it does seem as if the Bible can be interpreted and re-interpreted at every stage of faith

and it seems that we often find ourselves struggling between the pulls of 2 stages.

Edited February 17, 2008 by sirguessalot

[T-Bone]

...And yet, one must deal with the Apostle Paul's writing and who I believe was led by the Holy Spirit when he wrote 1 Th 5:23

and one could argue the point in the differences between Hebraic and Greek theological systems, but Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and would

have been very familiar with what today we call the dichotimist view and he would also have been very familiar with the trichotomist viewpoint as well since

his family was part of the diaspora and so Paul was Hellenized. Yet when he wrote Thess, he could have chose to introduce Hebraic thoughts on the

subject, yet the HS led him to pen the Tri view....

...But what exactly is that "union"? I do not believe that Elwell means it to be the one and the same. But the union occurs because

the spirit of man had entered into the flesh thus producing the soul of mankind. Because if humankind is made in the image of God, as listed above,

"pure spirit", then it must needs be that there is also a "spirit" inside of mankind. Thus 1 Th 5:23 holds true. What two parts united to form the soul?

Was it not spirit entering into the flesh? Therefore, it should be noted that body and soul cannot be the same because one came first and then the other.

I would also add that the writers of the first testament didn't have all of the pieces, but had to wait for the fulfilling of the Scripture and the coming of

the Savior. It was at Pentecost that re-introduced the HS to humankind and then the understanding that humans were really three part beings. Just

like even now we also, although we have a fuller revelation than what Isaiah or Jeremiah had, we also are still looking through darkened glass at the

concepts of eternity. I am sure we will all be thrilled when the full revelation is finally understood. Blessings.

I Thessalonians 5:23 may also be understood as an emphasis on the wholeness of human nature – noting how the sanctification process touches every dimension of life…I suppose we could have even more components than a trichotomist's model. By adding the heart, soul, and mind of Matthew 22:37 with which we're to love God – to the strength in Mark 12:30's commandment of loving God – and assuming body and spirit are a given – we come up with a six-fold model of man.

I'm of the opinion that Paul had a dichotomist's view of man from passages like Romans 8:10; I Corinthians 2:11; 5:3-5; 7:34; II Corinthians 7:1; Colossians 2:5.

There's an interesting use of soul and spirit in the gospels. Mark 10:45 says Jesus gave His life [psuche – soul] as a ransom; in John 19:30 He gave up His spirit [pneuma]. It's possible the terms may sometimes be used interchangeably.

I dunno…here we are fallen creatures trying to understand our own nature. In a discussion on the nature of man, Norman Geisler refers to Karl Barth on the issue:

"…In these circumstances how can we possibly reach a doctrine of man in the sense of a doctrine of his creaturely essence, of his human nature as such? For what we recognize to be human nature is nothing other than the disgrace which covers his nature; his inhumanity, perversion and corruption…But if we know man only in the corruption and distortion of his being, how can we begin to answer the question about his creaturely nature?"

From Systematic Theology, by Norman Geisler, Volume 3, page 75.

…anyway – I'm with you – we see through a glass darkly.

love & peace

Edited February 17, 2008 by T-Bone

[year2027]

[year2027]

God firstBeloved AllGod loves us allI added these videos not to agree with them just to keep things flowing with a video break that goes along with the subjectthank youwith love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Edited February 17, 2008 by year2027

[brideofjc]

I Thessalonians 5:23 may also be understood as an emphasis on the wholeness of human nature – noting how the sanctification process touches every dimension of life…I suppose we could have even more components than a trichotomist's model. By adding the heart, soul, and mind of Matthew 22:37 with which we're to love God – to the strength in Mark 12:30's commandment of loving God – and assuming body and spirit are a given – we come up with a six-fold model of man.

I'm of the opinion that Paul had a dichotomist's view of man from passages like Romans 8:10; I Corinthians 2:11; 5:3-5; 7:34; II Corinthians 7:1; Colossians 2:5.

There's an interesting use of soul and spirit in the gospels. Mark 10:45 says Jesus gave His life [psuche – soul] as a ransom; in John 19:30 He gave up His spirit [pneuma]. It's possible the terms may sometimes be used interchangeably.

I dunno…here we are fallen creatures trying to understand our own nature. In a discussion on the nature of man, Norman Geisler refers to Karl Barth on the issue:

"…In these circumstances how can we possibly reach a doctrine of man in the sense of a doctrine of his creaturely essence, of his human nature as such? For what we recognize to be human nature is nothing other than the disgrace which covers his nature; his inhumanity, perversion and corruption…But if we know man only in the corruption and distortion of his being, how can we begin to answer the question about his creaturely nature?"

From Systematic Theology, by Norman Geisler, Volume 3, page 75.

…anyway – I'm with you – we see through a glass darkly.

love & peace

Just to add some more to the plate........

and assuming body and spirit are a given – we come up with a six-fold model of man.

T-Bone....would that be a "SEXOTOMIST?"

Oh, for the joy of sex, huh?

[cman]

Faith?!....yeah...

If we decide that what this person writes is true then it is not of faith but of our mind deciding instead of being shown.

Sure we are to absorb all the material we can, but be careful that you don't go crazy!

Basically, untill you are shown what it is to die you will not know.

That showing is the experience of death and birth, dead as a seed and sprouting like birth.

It is spoken of in the bible and other places by those who have died and experienced death.

These employ the words of knowing what it is to be dead and resurrected.

Until one is willing to take it on face to face then it's guess work.

And using the words of others to pick and choose what is "logical" or "fits".

It will all be torn down and rebuilt, using the same old stuff and some new.

But the wisdom that is from above will not jive with what is gained from books conventionally.

A new wisdom will begin to surface and be seen.

And that wisdom that is in some books will be seen also.

And in the words of those talking to you.

And not of ourselves but springing forth from within ourselves.

[T-Bone]

...T-Bone....would that be a "SEXOTOMIST?"...

Oh, for the joy of sex, huh?

Geez, this could really get complicated if the sexotomist was also an annihilationist with a gambling problem – with the stakes set at double or nothing, we'll either find a twelvefold being or a void at Caesar's Palace.

[sirguessalot]

it seems that with direct experience of the interiority of man

radical complexity is the name of the game

kaleidoscopic is more like it

more shades and textures and facets than one can map

though that does not keep one from painting a picture of a mountain

or mapping its trails, or measuring the layers and types of rock

...

i think it helps to note that the body/soul/spirit type distinctions are more like the simple initial view from far off

but once we get closer, we see that there are more and more variations and overlaps between them

like counting the colors of a rainbow

we can say there are 3 primary colors

or 6 colors

or more

but once we put down these basic charts and get down to appreciating the actual texture of color

we will discover a thousand thousand variations

...

some traditions/philosophies/tongues make the same body/soul/spirit distinctions

but call them things like gross, subtle and causal

and then go even further to separate gross/body into various degrees of vitality

such as the difference between food and hair and skin and organs and nerves and DNA, for example

or the subtle/soul...separating the thinner substances into emotions, thoughts, memories, imagination, vision, feelings, dreams, breath, etc...

and even the causal/spirit into this side of the firmament, on the membrane of the firmament, and the other side of the firmament

and then "way above" the other side of the firmament, then "way way above" the other side of the firmament, etc...

("the firmament" being that frothy edge between form and formlessness)

even finer and finer distinctions have been made....some lineages specializing in the real high altitude atmospheric stuff of consciousness

and what it feels like, looks like to move through them

though some of them specialized without the baggage of elitism, ethnocentrism, fundamentalism, prejudice, etc...thereby allowing and excepting other specialist fields

Edited February 17, 2008 by sirguessalot

[cman]

I would like to see more contribute to this very important topic as they see fit.

I order to to really get more heart input rather then what we were told to think.

What are things like in the 'gut feeling' of a person regarding life and death.

No need to try and prove anything, except to ourselves I suppose.......

As Ham says - we never were actually dead - or will be.

I reckon he means as in nonexistent, I could listen to more of that.

I could listen to a lot about life.

[sirguessalot]

yeah

to add...

it seems most all of the ancient schools of thought that specialized in such "touching and tasting" the finer distinctions between body soul and spirit

were also quite directly connected to the arts of dying...

the capacity to understand the subtler and subtler states helps as one's subjective position moves farther from mere body and closer to spirit

allows one to "hold space" for those who are ill, injured and/or dying....as the subtle and causal experience become more vivid and active for them/us

early in life, we think we are our body...and so our subjective position is that of a body...unaware of self as a body

but as we age, we begin to discover our body...and so what was once subject becomes an object

and our new subjective position is that of thought and feeling

and if/as we move deeper into spirit...those thoughts and feelings become an object in our experience

and our new subjective position becomes "thinner and thinner" and "deeper in"

at the end of life...ideally, we are to be rooted and grounded in Love...which is the space and grace of our original and final formless self that never really left

and the body and soul (and all their distinctions) are seen as objects that arise in "our spirit"...having been held there all along

when we pass ...we simply echo forever in a million ways...imprinted in God's experience...which is to say imprinted in reality

this fulfills and embraces the magic, mythic, rational, and relative views of the afterlife as being valid

...plus

our body and soul is like a wave of water returning to the ocean we never ever left

where we are already always soaking wet

...

regarding gut feelings...and how we dream with our entire body

i entered the dream once while awake

and wanted to talk to my ancestors about life and death

so i lay on my back in the sand and looked up at the starry night

and asked them..."why am i here?"

all the galaxies shimmered and giggled like a child

and answered... "you already know"

my gut agreed...cuz i did

i asked...

"so what do i do now?"

and they answered "just be clear"

odd...how young the ancients seemed

and how incredibly old this kid felt

Edited February 18, 2008 by sirguessalot

[brideofjc]

Geez, this could really get complicated if the sexotomist was also an annihilationist with a gambling problem – with the stakes set at double or nothing, we'll either find a twelvefold being or a void at Caesar's Palace.

ALL RIGHT! WHAT'S GOING ON IN HERE, HUH?? I wouldn't touch that with a sexty sixty foot pole! Edited February 18, 2008 by brideofjc

[cman]

I think of a 'gut feeling' as

believing without seeing

kind of like you know but not quite clearly

you can see it in your mind

but putting it in words is hard to do

I think it is able to be seen clearly

the looking through a glass darkly is followed by face to face

both come and go with the wind...pneuma is wind ya know...

[Sunnyfla]

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Well..... there you have it folks. It took some strange character, although, I thought he was funny, to explain my initial question of Are the Dead Alive Now?

So the answer is NO, Not until Jesus comes back to get us..And, I don't think He came back yet, but I am waiting.

Thank you year2027 and all those who participated in this quest

XOXO

[cman]

The answer is no to you, but yes to me.

The dead are alive now.

No line, no waiting.

You have to see it to believe it.

Christ comes as a thief first.

Unnoticed. For each individual imo.

One is taken the other is left.

That don't mean the other will not have Christ come again.

And from where does Christ come, since he is in us?

Are we seated in the heavenlies or not? Now.

Edited February 18, 2008 by cman

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Sunnyfla

God loves you my dear friend

While I did think he could add to this I did not personally agree with his outcome I just wanted to lighten things up

but has long as you believe death is not the end it is only a small matter to the time when life comes again

why I believe the second death comes to the body the spirit of concupiscence leaves the body to be with God

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

................................................................

a lot to read but believe me it is a good read

it makes me think of Adam story in Genesis 3

sin taking a occasion to trick Adam into sin which is death to the flesh

while the law the one law could not keep Adam in line the love of Christ could

it a lot of stages a person travels in from a mind control by outward things to a mind control by the inward seed of holy spirit

while I believe like Cman it does not matter if you do not agree with us but that we both agree Christ coming back is the thing needed to overcome death

I want to add more for others later but I am glad you got your answer

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[Sunnyfla]

year2027

I am very simple minded. I think like a child most of the time, not to degrate myself in anyway of course, but when I find

myself over thinking something, I then look at it in more simpler terms.

What cman said of the fact that Jesus comes as a theif for "each individual" in his opinion, is clearly not written in the bible, and

to me IMO doesn't make sence. I thought we were gathered together, not individually. Now, here's my thought, When we die,

we are dead, dead, until the day of the Return of

Christ, but I do believe that our spirit goes back to where it came from..God. But I do not believe those who are dead

are "floating around in heaven, as of yet!!" I think of it this way.. when we die there's no rememberance of being dead, and

our next waking moment will be the Gathering anyway, so what diference does all this make right? We will all end up with

Christ in the end right? I still belive that God is of NO confusion and if I'm totally confused about this subject, then lets try to

simplify it to where I won't be so confused P.S. Do I still have WayBrain about this??? If I do RESCUE me!!!lol :o

XOXO

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Sunnyfla

God loves you my dear friend

ok what I se in a nut shell the way I see it -- which may be what Cman is thinking of or not

The bible being the part which God's word plus the parts of God's word not in our bibles

must be read as if it was personally wrote to you -- the dead of the world = the end of you

Christ die so you could live

your last sound = the last thing you hear = the last trump

you are not dead in Christ because you were quicken free from sin and death has no power over you

Once you get up from your death the last enemy you had has been destroy which was death

if this does not help later tonight I plan on putting it in better details

but its not about whether one has waybrain because you are past that because you are looking for truth everywhere under all rocks even that dirty way rock

I love you my friend

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Ps maybe Cman will add some more soon