Hey all. I popped in for a bit and noticed this discussion. I am not 100% sure of twi doctrine on this anymore either. My point of HMMM..I wonder how this fits in was:
Moses and Elijah dropping in to visit with Jesus at the Transfiguration. If they were still dead-who was Jesus talking to? just a thought I have had, but I haven't gone any further than that
Hey all. I popped in for a bit and noticed this discussion. I am not 100% sure of twi doctrine on this anymore either. My point of HMMM..I wonder how this fits in was:
Moses and Elijah dropping in to visit with Jesus at the Transfiguration. If they were still dead-who was Jesus talking to? just a thought I have had, but I haven't gone any further than that
Matthew 17:3 Â And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
kjv
Matthew 17:3 Â And Moses and Elijah came before their eyes, talking with him.
bbe
Matthew 17:3 Â and lo, Moses and Elias appeared to them talking with him.
bdy
Matthew 17:3 Â And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.
erv
The key word here is appeared, look it up and see for yourself what it means.
Hey all. I popped in for a bit and noticed this discussion. I am not 100% sure of twi doctrine on this anymore either. My point of HMMM..I wonder how this fits in was:
Moses and Elijah dropping in to visit with Jesus at the Transfiguration. If they were still dead-who was Jesus talking to? just a thought I have had, but I haven't gone any further than that
That was the next thing I was going to mention. We had just covered the Tranformation in Mark last week and I too thought to
myself what the heck was Moses and Elijah doing there with Jesus. The whole Tranformation thing was a huge discusion and
the topic of what the "Kingdom of God" was and how it was completely misunderstood and controversal. I had NO idea about it
myself because I can't remember ever being taught about the Tranformation with Jesus, Moses and Elijah.
I appreciate all the responses and your individual views, and I'm looking forward to reading more on this topic. You all had
great points to make and in the end, like many of you said, we will be together with Christ forever... Amen
By the way, I'm not going to split hairs over this with the group leaders, but I do enjoy talking with you all because I feel like
Sounds like things are really getting heated up....
So just out of curiosity, are we here to sow discord or peace?
Last I knew, putting others down is NOT in the definition of love!
"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, yet have not love, I am nothing. "
We never were taught in TWI about the tranfiguration on the Mount when Christ took Peter, John and James with him and they saw him in his full glory.
But if you read acts and I and II Peter, it was something always with Peter, he never forgot it. As the "main" apostle, he spoke of it often.
I'm also reminded of the incident when Saul went to the witch of Endor and had her bring up Samuel.
She freaked out, because, instead of channeling a spirit, as she probably was used to doing - another ho hum reading, she really did bring up Samuel. God allowed his soul to be brought up from Paradise, or Abraham's bosom - Sheol, where he and the other righteous saints waited for Christ. I think it really was him, not a devil spirit, as VP taught.
We read in Revelation how the souls of the martyred tribulation saints, before they are clothed with their new bodies, ask God how long until they are avenged as they await their new bodies in heaven.
There are just too many scriptures re: souls and they are not blotted out or obliterated. There is a place where those who await judgment go, and a place where those who are His are with him as both groups await their bodies prepared for eternity.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
I add this to
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
and others verses like them
Jeremiah 8:1 At that time, saith the LORD, they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah, and the bones of his princes, and the bones of the priests, and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, out of their graves:
Dr. once stated (or maybe more than once), that the work "Are The Dead Alive Now", was perhaps his most important work.
After so few years after some have graduated PFAL, I can't see how so easy it is for some to go the way of King Saul.
1 Samuel 15:13 Â And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD.
14 Â And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?
15 Â And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.
1 Samuel 15:21 Â But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.
22 Â And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 Â For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
1 Samuel 16:14 Â But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
15 Â And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1 Samuel 28:3 Â Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
6 Â And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Â Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
1 Samuel 31:1 Â Now the Philistines fought against Israel: and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa.
2 Â And the Philistines followed hard upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, Saul's sons.
3 Â And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers.
4 Â Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
5 Â And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.
6 Â So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.
I too was at one time bewitched by the lying tongue of VPW to the point I sacrifice good loving children of God to join in VPW cult of lies as the righteous churches fought against my act of pushing a lie the lie that VPW began to spread
VPW once said it was wrong for Simon the sorcery to buy the power to lead people into the baptism of holy spirit but VPW turn around and sold the power
VPW only highlighted the parts that made him look like a god
But VPW was a fasle god who claim to be a Christ and said things like Christ was absent and he took Christ place here on earth making VPW a anti-Christ and the Way Ministry a Anti-Christ movement
So what research have you done yourself because we are to move God's word forward not frezed it in time
but can we get back to the subject of "Are the Dead Alive Now?,"
so how do you handle these verses
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
if God can not lie than the graves were open and the dead righteous of the Old Testament got up and showed theirself alive
if you can not take away or add to God's word you must deal with this and VPW is not here to help
I too was at one time bewitched by the lying tongue of VPW to the point I sacrifice good loving children of God to join in VPW cult of lies as the righteous churches fought against my act of pushing a lie the lie that VPW began to spread
VPW once said it was wrong for Simon the sorcery to buy the power to lead people into the baptism of holy spirit but VPW turn around and sold the power
VPW only highlighted the parts that made him look like a god
But VPW was a fasle god who claim to be a Christ and said things like Christ was absent and he took Christ place here on earth making VPW a anti-Christ and the Way Ministry a Anti-Christ movement
So what research have you done yourself because we are to move God's word forward not frezed it in time
but can we get back to the subject of "Are the Dead Alive Now?,"
so how do you handle these verses
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
if God can not lie than the graves were open and the dead righteous of the Old Testament got up and showed theirself alive
if you can not take away or add to God's word you must deal with this and VPW is not here to help
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Proverbs 26:4 Â Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Â Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
6 Â He that sendeth a message by the hand of a fool cutteth off the feet, and drinketh damage.
7 Â The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
8 Â As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so is he that giveth honour to a fool.
9 Â As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
10 Â The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
11 Â As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
12 Â Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
Are you calling me a fool? if so how is that the love of God?
yes I did turn back to the lies and vomited them out
unless you are talking about yourself because words can go both ways
the class was the beginning of lies and yes I was taught a lot by it but I had that class now its time to learn things in a better way
Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
you are like a publican to me so I love you because my father is in heaven
Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
where is your life all you do is mirrow the life of a dead man VPW
I lost my life to live for Jesus the Christ
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
where did you get the PFAL from heaven or a man looking to take your money
John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
he Jesus Christ did not have respect to people who used God's temple to get rich
but in Truth you must see that
because you must still ibe n the Way cult
because you did not have enough love to say you are sorry
because you have mock me personally and I only mock your believes
Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
you mocked me how this verse I know it does not have to fit the mocking to you just be close
Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
John 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
John 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
We never were taught in TWI about the tranfiguration on the Mount when Christ took Peter, John and James with him and they saw him in his full glory.
But if you read acts and I and II Peter, it was something always with Peter, he never forgot it. As the "main" apostle, he spoke of it often.
I'm also reminded of the incident when Saul went to the witch of Endor and had her bring up Samuel.
She freaked out, because, instead of channeling a spirit, as she probably was used to doing - another ho hum reading, she really did bring up Samuel. God allowed his soul to be brought up from Paradise, or Abraham's bosom - Sheol, where he and the other righteous saints waited for Christ. I think it really was him, not a devil spirit, as VP taught.
We read in Revelation how the souls of the martyred tribulation saints, before they are clothed with their new bodies, ask God how long until they are avenged as they await their new bodies in heaven.
There are just too many scriptures re: souls and they are not blotted out or obliterated. There is a place where those who await judgment go, and a place where those who are His are with him as both groups await their bodies prepared for eternity.
Sunesis or others, can you recommend anything on the topic that deals with the state of the dead biblically? I'm particularly interested in something that answers the annhilationist and 'soul-sleep' positions we learned in Der Weg.
We have a home fellowship with a mix of former Way and never Way. A wonderful 'never-Way' man brought up this very question and a brief discussion ensued. I've been meditating on it and the word-picture of Lazarus being 'in the bosom of Abraham' resonates with me. So I'm interested, not that I expect to solve the problem and declare a written-in-stone doctrine, but in seeing the value of the orthodox position. (I've often described my post-Way journey as a long, slow slide into orthodoxy)
Preacher, folks can engage in 'dueling bibles' till kingdom come and only sow discord and never solve a thing.
Why is doctrine so important? How important should it be? Must we have a certain doctrinal statement for every possible point? I think not and I think it is a mistake to think there are no mysteries that will remain unsoved. No wonder the apostle wrote "GREAT is the mystery of godliness..."
I believe the reason Jesus, hanging on the cross, could say to the malfactor, today you will be with me in paradise, is because that is where they were both going - to Sheol, to Paradise - or Abraham's bosom - like every other soul before him awaiting his coming who had died. Note, though the malfactor's body would die, his soul would not. It was going to a specific destination, and he would be there with his Savior. Conscious and aware.
It was not until Christ was resurrected out of Sheol (after 3 days), that He took those there with him to heaven.
So yes, for three days after Christ's death both Christ and the malefactor were in Paradise. The body was dead, the soul was in Paradise. It was not until Christ was resurrected that they would be in Heaven.
That's why the Word says Christ descended to the depths for us.
That's why, the psalmist, prophecizing about the Messiah could say: Thou will NOT leave my soul in hell, nor your holy one to see corruption.
Christ knew, his Father would not leave him in Shoel. He had to literally trust that his Father would not leave him there. I think that's why he sweat drops like as blood in the Garden praying. There was the possibility he would never be with his Father again - ever. No wonder - the thought was horrifying to him.
If Christ's sacrifice had been unacceptable - he would not have been raised and resurrected. His soul would have been left there, and all mankind would have been lost.
Yet, he trusted in God and did the Father's will. He loved us enough to go to the depths of Sheol for us, to come get us, and then to shut the "gates" of hell so that it shall never prevail against the Church, his body again. Its closed.
Theologians have hotly debated this subject. Charles Hodge and W. G. T. Shedd, two of the greatest theologians at the turn of the century, wrangled over this issue at length. Shedd staked out the position that paradise and heaven are the same thing and that the Old Testament believers went immediately into the presence of the Lord. Hodge, on the other hand, defended the idea that before the resurrection of Christ all those who died went to one of two compartments in Hades. Following the resurrection, Christ removed the paradise compartment to heaven, and the New Testament believer immediately joined the Old Testament saint in the presence of the Lord.
I haven't had much interest in this subject, but I tentatively lean towards the position attributed to Hodge (which seems to be the position Sunesis holds), but am not ready to put those holding some other position to the polemical rack over it.
And before going around, further referencing the above snippet I posted, I would like to make sure its writer has his Hodges right (i.e. that the position he attributes to Charles Hodge is rightfully associated with Charles rather than with Charles's son, Archibald Alexander Hodge).
We know the Old Testament has verses like you quoted
But did not Jesus the Christ come to change things and are we not living in the New Testament now
but let us look at your verses with a open mind
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
ok so no one seems to have remembrance of them who are living after time and their memory is not store in the body - that does not mean it not stored another place
Their memory is forgotten because they are dead, they don't have memory anymore. Here's another one...
Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks
so in the grave there is no remembrance stored so its stored another place
you see those verses just open more questions if your mind is open
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penguin
Hey all. I popped in for a bit and noticed this discussion. I am not 100% sure of twi doctrine on this anymore either. My point of HMMM..I wonder how this fits in was:
Moses and Elijah dropping in to visit with Jesus at the Transfiguration. If they were still dead-who was Jesus talking to? just a thought I have had, but I haven't gone any further than that
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Preacher
Matthew 17:3 Â And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
kjv
Matthew 17:3 Â And Moses and Elijah came before their eyes, talking with him.
bbe
Matthew 17:3 Â and lo, Moses and Elias appeared to them talking with him.
bdy
Matthew 17:3 Â And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.
erv
The key word here is appeared, look it up and see for yourself what it means.
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Sunnyfla
That was the next thing I was going to mention. We had just covered the Tranformation in Mark last week and I too thought to
myself what the heck was Moses and Elijah doing there with Jesus. The whole Tranformation thing was a huge discusion and
the topic of what the "Kingdom of God" was and how it was completely misunderstood and controversal. I had NO idea about it
myself because I can't remember ever being taught about the Tranformation with Jesus, Moses and Elijah.
I appreciate all the responses and your individual views, and I'm looking forward to reading more on this topic. You all had
great points to make and in the end, like many of you said, we will be together with Christ forever... Amen
By the way, I'm not going to split hairs over this with the group leaders, but I do enjoy talking with you all because I feel like
I'm at home with you
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TrustAndObey
Sounds like things are really getting heated up....
So just out of curiosity, are we here to sow discord or peace?
Last I knew, putting others down is NOT in the definition of love!
"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, yet have not love, I am nothing. "
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year2027
God first
Beloved all
God loves you my dear friend
I hope my words did not sound like I was cutting any one down
I was trying to make a point that Mr Preacher might need to look deeper
But if remarks sounded wrong I am sorry Mr Preacher
my goal is to debate peaceful with Mr Preacher but if that not possible I will not debate with him
because love is foremost in my heart
my goal is to get us all to think but I am still human
maybe Mr Preacher is human too
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Sunesis
We never were taught in TWI about the tranfiguration on the Mount when Christ took Peter, John and James with him and they saw him in his full glory.
But if you read acts and I and II Peter, it was something always with Peter, he never forgot it. As the "main" apostle, he spoke of it often.
I'm also reminded of the incident when Saul went to the witch of Endor and had her bring up Samuel.
She freaked out, because, instead of channeling a spirit, as she probably was used to doing - another ho hum reading, she really did bring up Samuel. God allowed his soul to be brought up from Paradise, or Abraham's bosom - Sheol, where he and the other righteous saints waited for Christ. I think it really was him, not a devil spirit, as VP taught.
We read in Revelation how the souls of the martyred tribulation saints, before they are clothed with their new bodies, ask God how long until they are avenged as they await their new bodies in heaven.
There are just too many scriptures re: souls and they are not blotted out or obliterated. There is a place where those who await judgment go, and a place where those who are His are with him as both groups await their bodies prepared for eternity.
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year2027
God first
Beloved all
God loves you my dear friend
do not forget
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
I add this to
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
and others verses like them
Jeremiah 8:1 At that time, saith the LORD, they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah, and the bones of his princes, and the bones of the priests, and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, out of their graves:
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
-figurative or literal-
is that the only choices?
let's get specific then
what is dead
what is alive
the who that is alive, there is no doubt
where are they that are alive
for Christ is not one but many
and that which is dead is not a who
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Preacher
Dr. once stated (or maybe more than once), that the work "Are The Dead Alive Now", was perhaps his most important work.
After so few years after some have graduated PFAL, I can't see how so easy it is for some to go the way of King Saul.
1 Samuel 15:13 Â And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD.
14 Â And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?
15 Â And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.
1 Samuel 15:21 Â But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.
22 Â And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 Â For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
1 Samuel 16:14 Â But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
15 Â And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1 Samuel 28:3 Â Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
6 Â And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Â Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
1 Samuel 31:1 Â Now the Philistines fought against Israel: and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa.
2 Â And the Philistines followed hard upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, Saul's sons.
3 Â And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers.
4 Â Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
5 Â And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.
6 Â So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.
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Oakspear
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year2027
God first
Beloved Preacher
God loves you my dear friend
I too was at one time bewitched by the lying tongue of VPW to the point I sacrifice good loving children of God to join in VPW cult of lies as the righteous churches fought against my act of pushing a lie the lie that VPW began to spread
VPW once said it was wrong for Simon the sorcery to buy the power to lead people into the baptism of holy spirit but VPW turn around and sold the power
VPW only highlighted the parts that made him look like a god
But VPW was a fasle god who claim to be a Christ and said things like Christ was absent and he took Christ place here on earth making VPW a anti-Christ and the Way Ministry a Anti-Christ movement
So what research have you done yourself because we are to move God's word forward not frezed it in time
but can we get back to the subject of "Are the Dead Alive Now?,"
so how do you handle these verses
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
if God can not lie than the graves were open and the dead righteous of the Old Testament got up and showed theirself alive
if you can not take away or add to God's word you must deal with this and VPW is not here to help
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
Interesting sdubject, since we all deal with it.
Let's get basic ideas going here.
What does dead mean-
1. to us
2. to the dead
3. to God
The first person killed, God said his blood cried to him from the ground.
If I recall correctly.
I also think things have changed for the dead with what was done at the cross.
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Preacher
Proverbs 26:4 Â Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Â Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
6 Â He that sendeth a message by the hand of a fool cutteth off the feet, and drinketh damage.
7 Â The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
8 Â As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so is he that giveth honour to a fool.
9 Â As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
10 Â The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
11 Â As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
12 Â Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Preacher
God loves you my dear friend
Are you calling me a fool? if so how is that the love of God?
yes I did turn back to the lies and vomited them out
unless you are talking about yourself because words can go both ways
the class was the beginning of lies and yes I was taught a lot by it but I had that class now its time to learn things in a better way
Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
you are like a publican to me so I love you because my father is in heaven
Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
where is your life all you do is mirrow the life of a dead man VPW
I lost my life to live for Jesus the Christ
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
where did you get the PFAL from heaven or a man looking to take your money
John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
he Jesus Christ did not have respect to people who used God's temple to get rich
but in Truth you must see that
because you must still ibe n the Way cult
because you did not have enough love to say you are sorry
because you have mock me personally and I only mock your believes
Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
you mocked me how this verse I know it does not have to fit the mocking to you just be close
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Preacher
Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
John 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
John 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
Here are the verses you quotes in conext.
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waysider
Hiya, Preacher
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brideofjc
Why don't you just OUT with it and tell us what YOU REALLY THINK?
Some comments from you in conjunction to the thread title might be extremely helpful.
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TheEvan
Sunesis or others, can you recommend anything on the topic that deals with the state of the dead biblically? I'm particularly interested in something that answers the annhilationist and 'soul-sleep' positions we learned in Der Weg.
We have a home fellowship with a mix of former Way and never Way. A wonderful 'never-Way' man brought up this very question and a brief discussion ensued. I've been meditating on it and the word-picture of Lazarus being 'in the bosom of Abraham' resonates with me. So I'm interested, not that I expect to solve the problem and declare a written-in-stone doctrine, but in seeing the value of the orthodox position. (I've often described my post-Way journey as a long, slow slide into orthodoxy)
Preacher, folks can engage in 'dueling bibles' till kingdom come and only sow discord and never solve a thing.
Why is doctrine so important? How important should it be? Must we have a certain doctrinal statement for every possible point? I think not and I think it is a mistake to think there are no mysteries that will remain unsoved. No wonder the apostle wrote "GREAT is the mystery of godliness..."
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year2027
God first
Beloved TheEvan
God loves you my dear friend
Here what I believe but first there no way for me to give you a verse I do not have one
I make the bible more personal for each person who lives
So I believe Christ returns personally for each person that dies each time
otherwise many last trumps which is the last trump which is the last sound we make as breath to say it is over
so the dead are not dead they are lead up by Christ
but in the OT times I believe the dead were dead because Christ had not won over death yet
but as we see as soon has Jesus took his last breath has a man Chrit was born from Jesus
then we watch the graves being open
Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
it was not just Jesus Christ who show himself alive
yes there is a lot to meditate on
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Sunesis
I believe the reason Jesus, hanging on the cross, could say to the malfactor, today you will be with me in paradise, is because that is where they were both going - to Sheol, to Paradise - or Abraham's bosom - like every other soul before him awaiting his coming who had died. Note, though the malfactor's body would die, his soul would not. It was going to a specific destination, and he would be there with his Savior. Conscious and aware.
It was not until Christ was resurrected out of Sheol (after 3 days), that He took those there with him to heaven.
So yes, for three days after Christ's death both Christ and the malefactor were in Paradise. The body was dead, the soul was in Paradise. It was not until Christ was resurrected that they would be in Heaven.
That's why the Word says Christ descended to the depths for us.
That's why, the psalmist, prophecizing about the Messiah could say: Thou will NOT leave my soul in hell, nor your holy one to see corruption.
Christ knew, his Father would not leave him in Shoel. He had to literally trust that his Father would not leave him there. I think that's why he sweat drops like as blood in the Garden praying. There was the possibility he would never be with his Father again - ever. No wonder - the thought was horrifying to him.
If Christ's sacrifice had been unacceptable - he would not have been raised and resurrected. His soul would have been left there, and all mankind would have been lost.
Yet, he trusted in God and did the Father's will. He loved us enough to go to the depths of Sheol for us, to come get us, and then to shut the "gates" of hell so that it shall never prevail against the Church, his body again. Its closed.
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Cynic
I haven't had much interest in this subject, but I tentatively lean towards the position attributed to Hodge (which seems to be the position Sunesis holds), but am not ready to put those holding some other position to the polemical rack over it.
And before going around, further referencing the above snippet I posted, I would like to make sure its writer has his Hodges right (i.e. that the position he attributes to Charles Hodge is rightfully associated with Charles rather than with Charles's son, Archibald Alexander Hodge).
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RachelYsrael
The Bible is very clear on dead folks - It says they are dead.
They don't know anything, because they return to the ground they came from. Dust thou art and to dust thou shall return...
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Their memory is forgotten because they are dead, they don't have memory anymore. Here's another one...
Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
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year2027
God first
Beloved RachelYsrael
God loves you my dear, dear friend
We know the Old Testament has verses like you quoted
But did not Jesus the Christ come to change things and are we not living in the New Testament now
but let us look at your verses with a open mind
you see those verses just open more questions if your mind is open
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
PS I too agree with Sunesis understanding in part
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Oakspear
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