the word of God is a personal book so Christ returns on a personal basic
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
great verse and the Way play with the "," to change it to fix their thinking
but there are others
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
the dead in Christ are rising here so either God is lying or these dead got up
After Jesus Christ won over death they follower him up the dead in Christ
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
just because the remembrance is not stored in the grave does not mean it not stored another place
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
each person has their own last breath the sound of life at birth first breath until the last breath sound the last trump
many changes one for each person God is a personal God
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
we are the alive in Christ and the dead in Christ have done rose
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
we are "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: " at our death
you friend is close and VPW was dead wrong
we were quicken made alive so we can not die spiritually but the flesh bodies returns to dust and the spiritual body is born from the seed its been growing from in our hearts we changed by putting on a new kind of body
I believe that in general TWI was correct, the dead are dead until they're made alive. I won't bore you with a huge list of scriptures because I'm thinking you probably know them already.
I do believe that an over emphasis on the dispensationalism caused a mistake though. I now believe that the gathering together and the resurrection are the same event, not just similar.
In Ephesians it says that there is one hope (as opposed to two). It also says that the gentiles were brought into the covenant of promises, and they already existed. And if you read Ephesians carefully I think you may agree that with so many promises already given to Israel the only thing that was kept secret since the world began was that the gentiles were to made partakers of the same body.
I know the ramifications of this are huge. Feel free to take it as far as you care to. I'm always happy to rethink things too, and I never mind discussing things.
I believe TWI was wrong. TWI's doctrine is known as "annihilation" doctrine. Basically only TWI and Jehovah's Witnesses share this view.
Yes, when the body dies, it returns to dust.
BUT
The soul/spirit goes to be with Christ.
Christ taught us about this in the "parable" (I don't think its really a parable) of Lazarus. In the OT, before Christ was risen, all who died went to Shoel, hades, hell - pick a name. Shoel was divided into two sections: Paradise, or "Abraham's Bosom" as it was also called, where those who looked forward to him (OT saints) went. Those who died without him went to Shoel or Hades. A great gulf lay between the two sections so they could not cross over. See the "parable" of Lazarus. Christ describes it.
When Christ arose, he took those in paradise and brought them to heaven. He emptied Paradise.
Christ after his death and resurrection now has the keys to hell, or hades, sheol - whatever you prefer to call it.
That is why we are told the Gates of Hell cannot prevail ever again against the church, i.e., no soul who ever died in Christ since his resurrection ever goes to paradise - or sheol or Hades, or Hell.
They go to be with Christ in Heaven.
As of yet though, they (and we at the gathering) have not yet been given their new bodies - their new creation bodies.
That's why I feel the dead in Christ are seated - not "risen." When they have their new bodies, they will "rise" or stand up so to speak.
If you do a study through the Bible you will see that the dead souls (not bodies) in Sheol: talk, feel, have consciousness, etc. and will in the future.
Those who are Christ's will have new, eternal bodies prepared for eternity in heaven.
Those who chose not to be with him will have eternal bodies prepared for eternity without him in the "lake of fire" or, in the place "outside the gate."
The distinction TWI failed to make was between the body - dust - disintegrating in the grave, having no memory, etc. - which is true, and the Soul, which does not disintegrate and does not die.
God says in Eccl. 3:11 that he has set eternity in men's hearts. He does not kill life which he created - men's souls. They are eternal.
I know there will be varying opinions, but this is my take.
My opinion out of the other billions of opinions out there:
Does it really make a difference? Either way, you die. And whenever you return to consciousness you are with Christ. So whether that was a split second between the heart attck coming on or a million years since the heart attack, either way, you're alive with Christ, right? That's the hope. When, where, how, every man has speculcated and formed an opinion on.
Course, I do look at scriptures, and personally, I see it mostly as Jeff and TWI have said.
On the day of Pentecost in Acts, Peter said what? Acts 2:39 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Well, Is he dead?! Is he alive? I'm not going to argue with Peter. That's after the resurection, so is he still dead, or maybe just his body is dead?!
This whole, body - soul - spirit idea thought from TWI if you ask me is just playing with words. Man is made and given life. Sure he has a body, and we call a living body a soul. And when a living soul is alive it has thoughts and emotions and sometimes those emotions and actions are called men's spirit, not to be confused with God's spirit which is GOD's given to man and still is called God's spirit even after given to Him in scripture.
But Sheol and hades from scripture is a place just as real as heaven is a place. Sheol is any place below the earth (i.e. a pit, a grave) and heaven is a place above the earth (i.e. air, sky, space). Thus the scriptures say God is higher than the highest heaven and lower than the lowest sheol.
And I think clearest of all is 1 Cor 15
"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. "
Each is in it's own turn. Christ first, then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Has Christ came? I guess some could say his first coming, but that doesn't quite make sense if David is still dead and Christ's first coming came.
But to each his own opinion. The story concerning Lazarus in Luke just doesn't line up with the rest of scripture if it's a real account rather than another story/parable Jesus taught, and outside of that story, there really isn't another verse that fits.
I tell you today thou shalt be with me in Paradise? Umm, Jesus wasn't even going to be in Paradise that day if he was to be in the grave 3 days/night. But of course, yes, this verse could either way. The Greek allows both ways, and the word order is "...and he said unto him verily to you I am saying today with me shall you be in paradise." But word order does favor the fact he was saying it today, rather than the action since the adverb modifies the verb. That is verb-(the modifying adverb today) rather than (the modifying adverb today) - prepositional phrase - verb.
But alas, sure, we die. We are with Christ. At least us Christians believe that so the semantics and when and how, I don't argue. The rest non-Christian, to their own hope if they feel they need one.
I think you may find the intro to the book "Are the Dead Alive now" enlightening.
Also, just from a good old logical point of view, allow me this question if you please; if when once we die we are aleady up there in heaven, as religion teaches, then why would the Lord Christ have to return to save us from the wrath to come?
(it is okay to quote something, but posting a section without permission is not acceptable)
I've been thinking about you since I read your post yesterday. I'd really like to help.
In terms of the doctrine taught by TWI, I have to hold it because in all honesty it's what I believe to be true, even though I've had to change a few things to line up with my further considerations.
Holding these beliefs among denominational Christianity isn't easy. One thing I do is look at the lack of confrontation by Jesus Christ Himself when the jews that surrounded him tended to either believe in the resurrection or not.
Some of us think it's clear that the dead are dead until the resurrection and then go to heaven. Some of us think people go to heaven right right away. It looks to me that the situation today is about the same as the first century.
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF DID NOT ALLOW HIS LIFE TO BE WASTED BY ALWAYS ARGUING WITH EITHER SIDE.
Having recently been to my Grandfather's funeral I decided to not argue with the family about where grandpa was, it seemed unprofitable and harmful. Even with our different beliefs I can agree with them that after death the Lord will judge us like Paul plainly stated. I do not need to let it go to a bad place.
And besides, they all know what I believe to some extent. Even with the many people who chose not to discuss it with me in these parts I have no desire to beat anyone up. It's just that they've generally chosen or been led to not discuss it with me, their ministers found that they generally don't want to deal with the things that I must say. I use "must say" because I'm talking about sharing what I believe honestly, not as in boasting of being correct.
No matter where your considerations lead you Sunnyfla, I wish you the best. If you end up believing what I believe it will be more difficult for you I'm sure.
(added in editing)
Just a little question Cman, how do you handle Acts 1:11 which mentions Jesus ... come in like manner...?
Big question, small answers, not taking anything away from what's posted. I can only ring in with some thoughts. It's just a question that we know little about, nothing really if knowledge is based on actual experience. As a Christian the only single instance of a complete verified resurrection I know of is Jesus Christ and there are unique aspects to that, like His subsequent "ascension". (time, date, manner, etc.)
We all know and accept that we die and the body's gone soon enough. What happens to the life, the "soul", "spirit" - Ecclesiastes states rather simply that it returns to God. What that actually means, really means is difficult to envision, at best. If the essence of my life is unique to me and carries in it the whole of my personality, who I am, etc. than there's more there than say, a 9 volt. Still I don't have any ongoing relationship with anyone who's died to really know what's happened.
The relationship I have with Jesus Christ - that's an internal, personal one. I couldn't even begin to offer a detailed description of how that really works. I could describe it but not the same way I could describe relationships today. Sooo...
Right about now I do believe that something more than "here one day gone the next" is going on, but I'm not clear on what it actually is. In fact my real sense is that it's not simply based on location, for want of a better word, meaning that after death "I" or anyone simply takes up residence somewhere else, in "spirit" rather than body.
If "my spirit" goes "back to God" after death and that's who "me", there's definitely a change of venue so to speak - do "I" know it and continue in this state at that time? I really don't know, short answer - long answer, I think it's clearly possible. I believe Jesus leads us to a way of life. Jesus said "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do." That statement seems to imply in context that Jesus spoke to life as a whole as more than the end of the body when it comes.
As Paul was speaking of living or dying, he said he had a desire to depart and be with Christ, which was far better -- better in one sense: that he would be "with Christ." But it was "more needful" for him to "remain" and to be "with you" (the Church) for the furtherance of their faith and joy.
The "sleep" of which Paul writes in regard to a believer's death includes the idea of an awakening. The one hope of the NT is that we will arise. If we sleep, we will awake, or we will be changed if we are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. You, dear readers, will experience this, each in his own order, as someone said, and "first hand."
There are some interesting points along these lines in the following article. I'm not sold on the "intermediate state" being "Paradise," however. As another poster pointed out, Christ himself was not going to Paradise that day; he was going to spend his first day in hell. But it is clear that we are with the Lord in death; we "sleep in Jesus." But there is a time when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality. Paul did not expect to be perfect (teleios) or to have "apprehended" until after he had become "conformable unto his (Christ's) death."
edit: Socks, we're posting at the same time. You brought up venue, and that space-and-time issue is a good one. I believe the eternal kind of life transcends space and time. Even now we have that life, and though you're located in California and I'm in Delaware, we're meeting in the ether of the Internet.
First, I think that the bible is pretty clear that Jesus physically left this world and that at some point he will come back, if that's not a "return", then I don't know what is. I guess it depends what the proportion of the bible is figurative vs. literal.
Does the bible say that the dead are alive? Like so many topics it depends on what verses that one wants to magnify and which ones are to be explained away.
Yeah, anotherDan, that part of it - the what/how/who is the toughie. 1 Cor. 15 contains some information from Paul on it - it does speak to current conditions somewhat -
This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about: "Death is swallowed up in victory.Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
What your referencing Oakspear sounds like part of this. Jesus's resurrected body seemed to be the same, but different. Whatever it's conditions it was "Jesus" that was there, that spoke and His followers saw and were with. That same Jesus "left", ascended, went somewhere, and it sounded like where it was/is it's not "here". He was there, and He left for someplace else. Whatever happens in the future now, it will be a "return" of some kind.
"Flesh and blood" not inheriting the Kingdom of God can be partly a matter of fact, that the flesh and blood bodies of today aren't in the next phase, aren't what Jesus had or we would have. There's a resurrerction, a change - the dead are resurrected with some kind of new body and the living are changed. No need to change if the bodies the same.
"As they were watching, Jesus was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight."
I guess we could call it a "disappearing act", extraordinaire cman. :)
If I'm getting your point cman, Christ isn't less present but more present. The N.T. doctrine of Christianity refers to being in Christ and there being a Christ in you. So what does it really mean - of course Christ isn't absent if He's alive and if He's "in me" then our relationship is different than if He's next door.
That Time article is interesting anotherDan, thanks. I think there's a lot to be considered in that line of thought, more "biblical" than the common assumptions of "heaven".
Christ's message constantly redefined "life" as more than this now, more than a short term return on how we invest our life. He encouraged His followers to invest in a longer term process, to consider that living a certain way now would be correct for the whole of life, "eternity", etc. A spiritual see-further-than-the-end-of-my-fork view of living.
I spoke with a friend about this last night, and he described the fairly recent death of his father, a wonderful saint. My friend's outlook was that his father's death was a transition. Those who are Christ's HAVE eternal life. Therefore, those who are Christ's will never die. Some of us will not even sleep. But we will all be changed, as Socks pointed out.
Biblically, it is perfectly correct to say that someone who has passed on is "with the Lord" (as I quoted Paul, above, "with Christ") but how that is, it does not yet appear, but we do know that when he shall return, we will be like him, for we shall see him as he is. As I tried to get at before, our spacial thinking is not sufficient when the body is gone. Likewise, time may go on, but our consciousness may not notice it, as in sleep.
I do not sorrow as others who have no hope. I know my friend's dad is at rest and with the Lord, as are my dearly departed. I'm glad to have these conversations and to hear what others like George and Oak have to say, as well as those who have kept the faith and hope. As I have been for many years, I'm fascinated by doctrine, but in more recent years, I've leaned more on the Lord Himself, and less on my ability to define or explain Him. The Corinthian church, who needed to do some growing up, asked these questions, like "how are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come?" And I've wondered about many of these things. But increasingly I'm OK with mysteries and not knowing it all.
but you can't tell me that it all ends in a slow ride in a herse!" *(Brooks N Dunn) or (Clay Crosse)*
Seriously, I don't think anyone can say with a hundred percent confindence that they know, until the day they die!
so, having said that , I ask myself this question....
If our spirit goes back to God, then ''what is it doing with Him?"
Does he put it in a box?
Under His bed?
Does he have a superspiritwillywonka storage machine?
Does our spirit mush into his spirit and somehow become Him?
What?
We won't know now.
The point is, we are with the Lord. Whether we have a body like now isn't important. If he takes our spirit in the ''end'' and raises our bodies incorruptible then, who cares? It doesn't have to make ''mathmatical sense'' to me.
I stopped trying to reason with Dr . W strawman logic a while ago.
God, is God. He can do whatever He wants, however he wants. He didn't even write down HALF of what He is or what He will do.
So, I stopped trying to "know that I know, that I know'', and just try to except the unknown.
I rest in the fact that He says I have ETERNAL LIFE. For me that starts yesterday.
It's interesting that the first use of alive that I found is in reference to the flood.
Genesis 6:18 Â But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
19 Â And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
20 Â Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
21 Â And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
22 Â Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
It's also interesting that God had recorded that Noah obeyed Him.
Genesis 9:7 Â And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
8 Â And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 Â And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 Â And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 Â And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 Â And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 Â I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 Â And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 Â And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 Â And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 Â And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
And where would that be so clear in the bible, Oakspear.
Acts 1 seems clear enough to me. I think socks mentioned the reference even if he didn't cite the chapter & verse.
And what verses will we magnify and which ones will be ignored or explained away.
It appears to me that you take a more figurative interpretation than some folks. I've got no problem with that, but it makes it difficult for to have a discussion with you (that's my problem, not yours) since I'm never sure what you're seeing when you read a section of the bible.
It seems to me that you and follow different rules of logic and discussion, so don't get offended if I don't engage you in debate over this issue.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Sunnyfla
God loves you my dear friend
the word of God is a personal book so Christ returns on a personal basic
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
great verse and the Way play with the "," to change it to fix their thinking
but there are others
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
the dead in Christ are rising here so either God is lying or these dead got up
After Jesus Christ won over death they follower him up the dead in Christ
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
just because the remembrance is not stored in the grave does not mean it not stored another place
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
each person has their own last breath the sound of life at birth first breath until the last breath sound the last trump
many changes one for each person God is a personal God
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
we are the alive in Christ and the dead in Christ have done rose
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
we are "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: " at our death
you friend is close and VPW was dead wrong
we were quicken made alive so we can not die spiritually but the flesh bodies returns to dust and the spiritual body is born from the seed its been growing from in our hearts we changed by putting on a new kind of body
all the word of God must fix together
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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JeffSjo
Hi Sunnyfla,
I believe that in general TWI was correct, the dead are dead until they're made alive. I won't bore you with a huge list of scriptures because I'm thinking you probably know them already.
I do believe that an over emphasis on the dispensationalism caused a mistake though. I now believe that the gathering together and the resurrection are the same event, not just similar.
In Ephesians it says that there is one hope (as opposed to two). It also says that the gentiles were brought into the covenant of promises, and they already existed. And if you read Ephesians carefully I think you may agree that with so many promises already given to Israel the only thing that was kept secret since the world began was that the gentiles were to made partakers of the same body.
I know the ramifications of this are huge. Feel free to take it as far as you care to. I'm always happy to rethink things too, and I never mind discussing things.
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cman
The most feared word-death.
Is it the end or the beginning?
Why question that which you will know?
Is it because of yourself or others.
For the continuance or the finality of life.
Is this the only two choices-life or death.
Or is death something different.
Some say it's figurative, used so much in the new testament.
I don't think so.
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Sunesis
I believe TWI was wrong. TWI's doctrine is known as "annihilation" doctrine. Basically only TWI and Jehovah's Witnesses share this view.
Yes, when the body dies, it returns to dust.
BUT
The soul/spirit goes to be with Christ.
Christ taught us about this in the "parable" (I don't think its really a parable) of Lazarus. In the OT, before Christ was risen, all who died went to Shoel, hades, hell - pick a name. Shoel was divided into two sections: Paradise, or "Abraham's Bosom" as it was also called, where those who looked forward to him (OT saints) went. Those who died without him went to Shoel or Hades. A great gulf lay between the two sections so they could not cross over. See the "parable" of Lazarus. Christ describes it.
When Christ arose, he took those in paradise and brought them to heaven. He emptied Paradise.
Christ after his death and resurrection now has the keys to hell, or hades, sheol - whatever you prefer to call it.
That is why we are told the Gates of Hell cannot prevail ever again against the church, i.e., no soul who ever died in Christ since his resurrection ever goes to paradise - or sheol or Hades, or Hell.
They go to be with Christ in Heaven.
As of yet though, they (and we at the gathering) have not yet been given their new bodies - their new creation bodies.
That's why I feel the dead in Christ are seated - not "risen." When they have their new bodies, they will "rise" or stand up so to speak.
If you do a study through the Bible you will see that the dead souls (not bodies) in Sheol: talk, feel, have consciousness, etc. and will in the future.
Those who are Christ's will have new, eternal bodies prepared for eternity in heaven.
Those who chose not to be with him will have eternal bodies prepared for eternity without him in the "lake of fire" or, in the place "outside the gate."
The distinction TWI failed to make was between the body - dust - disintegrating in the grave, having no memory, etc. - which is true, and the Soul, which does not disintegrate and does not die.
God says in Eccl. 3:11 that he has set eternity in men's hearts. He does not kill life which he created - men's souls. They are eternal.
I know there will be varying opinions, but this is my take.
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TrustAndObey
My opinion out of the other billions of opinions out there:
Does it really make a difference? Either way, you die. And whenever you return to consciousness you are with Christ. So whether that was a split second between the heart attck coming on or a million years since the heart attack, either way, you're alive with Christ, right? That's the hope. When, where, how, every man has speculcated and formed an opinion on.
Course, I do look at scriptures, and personally, I see it mostly as Jeff and TWI have said.
On the day of Pentecost in Acts, Peter said what? Acts 2:39 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
Well, Is he dead?! Is he alive? I'm not going to argue with Peter. That's after the resurection, so is he still dead, or maybe just his body is dead?!
This whole, body - soul - spirit idea thought from TWI if you ask me is just playing with words. Man is made and given life. Sure he has a body, and we call a living body a soul. And when a living soul is alive it has thoughts and emotions and sometimes those emotions and actions are called men's spirit, not to be confused with God's spirit which is GOD's given to man and still is called God's spirit even after given to Him in scripture.
But Sheol and hades from scripture is a place just as real as heaven is a place. Sheol is any place below the earth (i.e. a pit, a grave) and heaven is a place above the earth (i.e. air, sky, space). Thus the scriptures say God is higher than the highest heaven and lower than the lowest sheol.
And I think clearest of all is 1 Cor 15
"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. "
Each is in it's own turn. Christ first, then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Has Christ came? I guess some could say his first coming, but that doesn't quite make sense if David is still dead and Christ's first coming came.
But to each his own opinion. The story concerning Lazarus in Luke just doesn't line up with the rest of scripture if it's a real account rather than another story/parable Jesus taught, and outside of that story, there really isn't another verse that fits.
I tell you today thou shalt be with me in Paradise? Umm, Jesus wasn't even going to be in Paradise that day if he was to be in the grave 3 days/night. But of course, yes, this verse could either way. The Greek allows both ways, and the word order is "...and he said unto him verily to you I am saying today with me shall you be in paradise." But word order does favor the fact he was saying it today, rather than the action since the adverb modifies the verb. That is verb-(the modifying adverb today) rather than (the modifying adverb today) - prepositional phrase - verb.
But alas, sure, we die. We are with Christ. At least us Christians believe that so the semantics and when and how, I don't argue. The rest non-Christian, to their own hope if they feel they need one.
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cman
Psalm 24
1The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
and
Psalm 23
1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
from David.........
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Preacher
I think you may find the intro to the book "Are the Dead Alive now" enlightening.
Also, just from a good old logical point of view, allow me this question if you please; if when once we die we are aleady up there in heaven, as religion teaches, then why would the Lord Christ have to return to save us from the wrath to come?
(it is okay to quote something, but posting a section without permission is not acceptable)
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cman
I find it misinformation, not enlightening at all Preacher,
There is no mention of any "Return of Christ" in the bible, for one.
The conclusions drawn by other men do not lead me.
The Hope is in us and will not leave us.
The coming of Christ is certain and an individual experience-dead or alive.
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cheranne
when i die .....i may not go to heaven....just let me go to TEXAS.
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cman
Yes there is life after death now.
In answer to the book's question.
Here's a little bit of history about a 'return of Christ'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_of_Christ
So rather then looking and finding answers now.
Many are tricked into waiting for some event that is not going to happen.
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George Aar
And on the other hand,
If - once you die - you simply STAY dead (a very likely scenario from where I sit), is that going to be so bad?
You'll never know the difference...
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JeffSjo
Good morning Sunnyfla,
I've been thinking about you since I read your post yesterday. I'd really like to help.
In terms of the doctrine taught by TWI, I have to hold it because in all honesty it's what I believe to be true, even though I've had to change a few things to line up with my further considerations.
Holding these beliefs among denominational Christianity isn't easy. One thing I do is look at the lack of confrontation by Jesus Christ Himself when the jews that surrounded him tended to either believe in the resurrection or not.
Some of us think it's clear that the dead are dead until the resurrection and then go to heaven. Some of us think people go to heaven right right away. It looks to me that the situation today is about the same as the first century.
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF DID NOT ALLOW HIS LIFE TO BE WASTED BY ALWAYS ARGUING WITH EITHER SIDE.
Having recently been to my Grandfather's funeral I decided to not argue with the family about where grandpa was, it seemed unprofitable and harmful. Even with our different beliefs I can agree with them that after death the Lord will judge us like Paul plainly stated. I do not need to let it go to a bad place.
And besides, they all know what I believe to some extent. Even with the many people who chose not to discuss it with me in these parts I have no desire to beat anyone up. It's just that they've generally chosen or been led to not discuss it with me, their ministers found that they generally don't want to deal with the things that I must say. I use "must say" because I'm talking about sharing what I believe honestly, not as in boasting of being correct.
No matter where your considerations lead you Sunnyfla, I wish you the best. If you end up believing what I believe it will be more difficult for you I'm sure.
(added in editing)
Just a little question Cman, how do you handle Acts 1:11 which mentions Jesus ... come in like manner...?
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cman
You will have to get that answer first hand JeffSjo.
The ones that were told this, did.
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socks
Big question, small answers, not taking anything away from what's posted. I can only ring in with some thoughts. It's just a question that we know little about, nothing really if knowledge is based on actual experience. As a Christian the only single instance of a complete verified resurrection I know of is Jesus Christ and there are unique aspects to that, like His subsequent "ascension". (time, date, manner, etc.)
We all know and accept that we die and the body's gone soon enough. What happens to the life, the "soul", "spirit" - Ecclesiastes states rather simply that it returns to God. What that actually means, really means is difficult to envision, at best. If the essence of my life is unique to me and carries in it the whole of my personality, who I am, etc. than there's more there than say, a 9 volt. Still I don't have any ongoing relationship with anyone who's died to really know what's happened.
The relationship I have with Jesus Christ - that's an internal, personal one. I couldn't even begin to offer a detailed description of how that really works. I could describe it but not the same way I could describe relationships today. Sooo...
Right about now I do believe that something more than "here one day gone the next" is going on, but I'm not clear on what it actually is. In fact my real sense is that it's not simply based on location, for want of a better word, meaning that after death "I" or anyone simply takes up residence somewhere else, in "spirit" rather than body.
If "my spirit" goes "back to God" after death and that's who "me", there's definitely a change of venue so to speak - do "I" know it and continue in this state at that time? I really don't know, short answer - long answer, I think it's clearly possible. I believe Jesus leads us to a way of life. Jesus said "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do." That statement seems to imply in context that Jesus spoke to life as a whole as more than the end of the body when it comes.
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anotherDan
As Paul was speaking of living or dying, he said he had a desire to depart and be with Christ, which was far better -- better in one sense: that he would be "with Christ." But it was "more needful" for him to "remain" and to be "with you" (the Church) for the furtherance of their faith and joy.
The "sleep" of which Paul writes in regard to a believer's death includes the idea of an awakening. The one hope of the NT is that we will arise. If we sleep, we will awake, or we will be changed if we are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. You, dear readers, will experience this, each in his own order, as someone said, and "first hand."
There are some interesting points along these lines in the following article. I'm not sold on the "intermediate state" being "Paradise," however. As another poster pointed out, Christ himself was not going to Paradise that day; he was going to spend his first day in hell. But it is clear that we are with the Lord in death; we "sleep in Jesus." But there is a time when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality. Paul did not expect to be perfect (teleios) or to have "apprehended" until after he had become "conformable unto his (Christ's) death."
Time Magazine article w/ NT Wright
edit: Socks, we're posting at the same time. You brought up venue, and that space-and-time issue is a good one. I believe the eternal kind of life transcends space and time. Even now we have that life, and though you're located in California and I'm in Delaware, we're meeting in the ether of the Internet.
Hi Sunesis! I enjoyed your perspective!
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Oakspear
First, I think that the bible is pretty clear that Jesus physically left this world and that at some point he will come back, if that's not a "return", then I don't know what is. I guess it depends what the proportion of the bible is figurative vs. literal.
Does the bible say that the dead are alive? Like so many topics it depends on what verses that one wants to magnify and which ones are to be explained away.
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cman
And where would that be so clear in the bible, Oakspear.
And what verses will we magnify and which ones will be ignored or explained away.
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socks
Yeah, anotherDan, that part of it - the what/how/who is the toughie. 1 Cor. 15 contains some information from Paul on it - it does speak to current conditions somewhat -
This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about: "Death is swallowed up in victory.Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
What your referencing Oakspear sounds like part of this. Jesus's resurrected body seemed to be the same, but different. Whatever it's conditions it was "Jesus" that was there, that spoke and His followers saw and were with. That same Jesus "left", ascended, went somewhere, and it sounded like where it was/is it's not "here". He was there, and He left for someplace else. Whatever happens in the future now, it will be a "return" of some kind.
"Flesh and blood" not inheriting the Kingdom of God can be partly a matter of fact, that the flesh and blood bodies of today aren't in the next phase, aren't what Jesus had or we would have. There's a resurrerction, a change - the dead are resurrected with some kind of new body and the living are changed. No need to change if the bodies the same.
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cman
Disappearing is not the same as leaving.
Just how close is 'heaven'?
Christ?
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socks
"As they were watching, Jesus was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight."
I guess we could call it a "disappearing act", extraordinaire cman. :)
If I'm getting your point cman, Christ isn't less present but more present. The N.T. doctrine of Christianity refers to being in Christ and there being a Christ in you. So what does it really mean - of course Christ isn't absent if He's alive and if He's "in me" then our relationship is different than if He's next door.
That Time article is interesting anotherDan, thanks. I think there's a lot to be considered in that line of thought, more "biblical" than the common assumptions of "heaven".
Christ's message constantly redefined "life" as more than this now, more than a short term return on how we invest our life. He encouraged His followers to invest in a longer term process, to consider that living a certain way now would be correct for the whole of life, "eternity", etc. A spiritual see-further-than-the-end-of-my-fork view of living.
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anotherDan
I spoke with a friend about this last night, and he described the fairly recent death of his father, a wonderful saint. My friend's outlook was that his father's death was a transition. Those who are Christ's HAVE eternal life. Therefore, those who are Christ's will never die. Some of us will not even sleep. But we will all be changed, as Socks pointed out.
Biblically, it is perfectly correct to say that someone who has passed on is "with the Lord" (as I quoted Paul, above, "with Christ") but how that is, it does not yet appear, but we do know that when he shall return, we will be like him, for we shall see him as he is. As I tried to get at before, our spacial thinking is not sufficient when the body is gone. Likewise, time may go on, but our consciousness may not notice it, as in sleep.
I do not sorrow as others who have no hope. I know my friend's dad is at rest and with the Lord, as are my dearly departed. I'm glad to have these conversations and to hear what others like George and Oak have to say, as well as those who have kept the faith and hope. As I have been for many years, I'm fascinated by doctrine, but in more recent years, I've leaned more on the Lord Himself, and less on my ability to define or explain Him. The Corinthian church, who needed to do some growing up, asked these questions, like "how are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come?" And I've wondered about many of these things. But increasingly I'm OK with mysteries and not knowing it all.
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bliss
hi sunny friend
"I don't know the chapter or the verse..........
but you can't tell me that it all ends in a slow ride in a herse!" *(Brooks N Dunn) or (Clay Crosse)*
Seriously, I don't think anyone can say with a hundred percent confindence that they know, until the day they die!
so, having said that , I ask myself this question....
If our spirit goes back to God, then ''what is it doing with Him?"
Does he put it in a box?
Under His bed?
Does he have a superspiritwillywonka storage machine?
Does our spirit mush into his spirit and somehow become Him?
What?
We won't know now.
The point is, we are with the Lord. Whether we have a body like now isn't important. If he takes our spirit in the ''end'' and raises our bodies incorruptible then, who cares? It doesn't have to make ''mathmatical sense'' to me.
I stopped trying to reason with Dr . W strawman logic a while ago.
God, is God. He can do whatever He wants, however he wants. He didn't even write down HALF of what He is or what He will do.
So, I stopped trying to "know that I know, that I know'', and just try to except the unknown.
I rest in the fact that He says I have ETERNAL LIFE. For me that starts yesterday.
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Preacher
It's interesting that the first use of alive that I found is in reference to the flood.
Genesis 6:18 Â But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
19 Â And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
20 Â Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
21 Â And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
22 Â Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
It's also interesting that God had recorded that Noah obeyed Him.
Genesis 9:7 Â And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
8 Â And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 Â And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 Â And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 Â And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 Â And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 Â I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 Â And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 Â And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 Â And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 Â And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
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Oakspear
It appears to me that you take a more figurative interpretation than some folks. I've got no problem with that, but it makes it difficult for to have a discussion with you (that's my problem, not yours) since I'm never sure what you're seeing when you read a section of the bible.
It seems to me that you and follow different rules of logic and discussion, so don't get offended if I don't engage you in debate over this issue.
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