I was never M&A'd but I lived through a time when people were dropping like flies and it was usually for buying something that came with debt (ike a guy I knew who bought a new truck without the RC's permission), or for verbally challenging leadership (happened to a couple I knew when the husband didn't show m. f@rt due deference) and another friend's parents were M&A'd for putting their relationship and family above some stupid leadership directive to break up their family.
#2 Someone claimed a genuine spiritual suspicion that my teenage son and I were homosexuals.
Someone said my son was a "homo". Then they said I was a lesbian. Neither was true. I would've loved my son all the same if he were, but the fact is we're both heterosexual.
there is no option for mine. I marked and avoided THEM, not the other way around.
Well said Hap...well said.
I too marked and avoided THEM...after I told them what I thought of them, they immediately told the other cult members in that branch to stay away from me. The folks in my twig stood with me and left twi themselves, shortly thereafter.
The "Martindale years" were total insanity. I don't think I ever saw an ounce of compassion come out of that man...and I was around him for years....for me, it was easy to leave.
#2 Someone claimed a genuine spiritual suspicion that my teenage son and I were homosexuals.
Someone said my son was a "homo". Then they said I was a lesbian. Neither was true. I would've loved my son all the same if he were, but the fact is we're both heterosexual.
Ya know I gotta just ask...what is the absolute insanity with which Christians seem to hate homosexuals and lesbians? I'm het - but sure don't get the fervor with which they attack them. And yes Bowtwi - I would love my kids no matter what.
I would say number "5). You verbally challenged leadership." but was more in written form I challenged their right to charge money for God's word the PFAL by asking for scripture and verse for what made it ok after given one than made it wrong
Acts 8:18-20 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
I think we fell into the catagory of 'spiritual weakness'... wasn't stated outright...but i was told i was 'nothing but a bleeding heart'... I guess that's weakness to them.
I'm not sure if I was officially marked and avoided or not, but in August or September of 2001 the Region Coordinator told me that I "was no longer welcome at Way fellowships" Because I "did not believe that the Trustees were leading the minsitry in the right direction."
This came on the heels of the WayGB figuring out that I was posting on Waydale and Grease Spot Cafe and my speaking up about several doctrines that I did not believe could be biblically supported.
there is no option for mine. I marked and avoided THEM, not the other way around.
A little of both for me. The more I asked questions, the less they liked having me around.
Got to the point where I went less and less to twig, on my own volition.
No fun, fellowship was *strained*, fake smiles, etc. I'm sure you all know the *drill*, eh?
Finally (after dragging myself to twig one day), it was *suggested* that perhaps I should not come back. I acquieced, and didn't go back --- more for my sake than theirs!!
One person there at the twig found out I had a copy of the *Overview* tapes by JAL.
She wondered (aloud) at twig why these weren't being listened to and considered or discussed.
I don't remember the exact response that she got from *leadership*, but it wasn't positive.
She then told (whoever was in charge here that year),
that she was gonna get hold of me, and listen to them.
She got the word that I was a *bad apple*, and not to contact me at all.
Short of the long of it is -- she did. She came to my house and listened to all 3 hours of those tapes.
JAL laid it all out on the line in his *overview* of twi, and all that had gone on.
She wasn't happy (after hearing the tapes), because she (like a lot of us)
thought docvic could do no evil.
If I recollect correct -- she was M & A'd from twig immediately after --
just because she came here to hear *The Rest Of The Story*.
Yup --- twi is a *loving, friendly family* group intent on spreading the Love/ Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I left, then Jim Do*r marked and avoided me to protect his dwindling flock from my talking to them. It was a case of anger on his part ... I "quit" and THEN he said, "You can't quit, you're fired." So immature .. spiritually and otherwise.
3) Leadership said you had a chronic weakness in your life.
It was #1 and #3. I was guilty of "treachery." That was the word that was used probably half a dozen times on the final phone call I got. That's what I got for giving them 25 years of my life.
What really happened was I couldn't keep up with the ever increasing pace of the twi treadmill. There is only so much time to work, raise a family and do twi activities. I was glad I got the boot because I didn't know what else to do. It didn't take long to realize I was much better off without twi.
That was almost nine years ago. Of course, now I don't care how I got out, I'm just glad that I'm out.
They had hubby and I pegged as "spiritually weak" for a few years but weren't willing to get rid of us because we were too whipped, and willing to do whatever they needed doing at the moment (clean a house, watch a kid, make a card, etc.)
Then the first lawsuit hit, and I got online. At first, I spoke to my hubby and the local leadership about what I was reading, and they were 'forgiving'... telling me that in the current climate of unrest, there were a lot of folks who were upset and looking in the wrong places for answers... and then they told me to stop. Don't get online. Don't talk to cop-outs. Don't question leadership. Don't question your husband. Don't think. Don't breathe. Don't do anything without our permission.
I couldn't do that. I stayed online. I kept talking to ex-wayers. I cleared my head of a lot of twi-bs. And they caught me. Showed up on my doorstep with printouts of some of my posts. Looked me right in the eye and said I was Mark and Avoid. I felt so special.
I was guilty of "treachery." That was the word that was used probably half a dozen times on the final phone call I got. That's what I got for giving them 25 years of my life.
There was definitely treachery there, but not on YOUR part. <_<
Rascal... they weren't dubbed the Way-GB for nothing...
I and a few others found out the hard way that HQ had paid staff surfing WayDale and Greasespot looking for folks who were still in, but posting online. That's why folks around here are quick to warn any newcomers who seem to be saying too much about themselves, just in case they think "this is the last place twi-bots would look". Whether the WayGB are still around these days, in the "kinder, gentler twi" who knows? Better safe than sorry.
Reason #5, but not from TWI. Ironically, I was M&A'd from an offshoot group that previously had openly criticized TWI's practices. The (rotten) apple doesn't fall far from the tree. They got into the same mindset of "we are right and everybody else is wrong" and started quoting scriptures about turning away from those who don't hold the truth. When I pointed out that those scriptures are referring to those who reject Christ and the Gospel, not those fellow Christians who disagree on points of doctrine, I was told I was no longer welcome to fellowship with them. And other church members shunned my wife and me (except for one that openly berated my wife in the middle of a grocery store!)
The interesting thing is, those posters above who said THEY M&A'd TWI were actually practicing the correct meaning of "mark and avoid." Rom. 16:17 - "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." In all these cases, who was it that was causing the divisions and offences - the ones who got kicked out, or the leaders of the corrupt organization?
I guess personally challenging leadership. My refusal to attend the fellowship/twig they apportioned to me. I did not get along with the coordinator, so it was best to let me cool off in another fellowship. Also, because of living in dire poverty then, I refused to tithe anymore because tithing did not improve my life, even after five years of doing it.
That sealed it, I think.
Well, and calling out a guy in the Corps and telling him to come out of his apartment to face me.
I was a peaceful guy before all this. I'm not joking. Honest to God I was. Kind of wimpy in my approach to Way leadership. One day it exploded. I feel bad about it now.
I was avoided like the plague, dirty looks and all.
I don't know if I was ever marked and avoided. Do any of you, who stayed with The Way after 1989 know? Many of you hung in there and rabidly persecuted people like me. I am Kevin Nye, 10th Corps, ex Way clergy. Did you mark me and avoid me? Never heard if I was. I do know that They probably had reason to mark me and avoid me, for, I ran a "safe house" for International Corps who had to leave because Craig kicked them out and off of HQ grounds with less than a 24 hour notice. I had New Zealander's, Aussies, a Greek guy, and some Americans holed up in my home in Maryland because they had no place to go. I helped them escape the rabid, wicked, and evil persecution that they endured simply because like me, they decided to think and make their own decisions, instead of act like fearful automatons and stay "In".
I had Larry Panarello and his punk foot minions in the DC area trying to break up my marriage and infiltrate my home when I wasn't there, because they knew I was "reactionary". I tried to, and successfully, helped my International friends escape the intolerable scene that they found themselves in. I got them jobs, helped them get up the money to fly back to their Home Countries, gave them a place to lay their heads, fed them, and all the while not only trying to help them make sense of it all, but also struggling in my own heart and mind to try and make sense of it all. All the while trying to be a Husband and Dad, and trying to help my wife try to make sense of it all. So, was I on that list of "Mark and Avoid"? Was I? Did any of you here know if I was on that list? I bailed when it was so obvious that things were way WRONG. Did any of you who stayed for many many more years ever notice my name on that list? If I was on that list, no doubt those actions had something to do with it...
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potato
I was never M&A'd but I lived through a time when people were dropping like flies and it was usually for buying something that came with debt (ike a guy I knew who bought a new truck without the RC's permission), or for verbally challenging leadership (happened to a couple I knew when the husband didn't show m. f@rt due deference) and another friend's parents were M&A'd for putting their relationship and family above some stupid leadership directive to break up their family.
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WhiteDove
High five here.....
Although I was M & A after I departed I later found out.
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bowtwi
#2 Someone claimed a genuine spiritual suspicion that my teenage son and I were homosexuals.
Someone said my son was a "homo". Then they said I was a lesbian. Neither was true. I would've loved my son all the same if he were, but the fact is we're both heterosexual.
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HAPe4me
there is no option for mine. I marked and avoided THEM, not the other way around.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well said Hap...well said.
I too marked and avoided THEM...after I told them what I thought of them, they immediately told the other cult members in that branch to stay away from me. The folks in my twig stood with me and left twi themselves, shortly thereafter.
The "Martindale years" were total insanity. I don't think I ever saw an ounce of compassion come out of that man...and I was around him for years....for me, it was easy to leave.
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RumRunner
Ya know I gotta just ask...what is the absolute insanity with which Christians seem to hate homosexuals and lesbians? I'm het - but sure don't get the fervor with which they attack them. And yes Bowtwi - I would love my kids no matter what.
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year2027
God first
Beloved E. W. Bullinger
God loves you my dear friend
I would say number "5). You verbally challenged leadership." but was more in written form I challenged their right to charge money for God's word the PFAL by asking for scripture and verse for what made it ok after given one than made it wrong
Acts 8:18-20 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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A la prochaine
I think we fell into the catagory of 'spiritual weakness'... wasn't stated outright...but i was told i was 'nothing but a bleeding heart'... I guess that's weakness to them.
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Oakspear
I'm not sure if I was officially marked and avoided or not, but in August or September of 2001 the Region Coordinator told me that I "was no longer welcome at Way fellowships" Because I "did not believe that the Trustees were leading the minsitry in the right direction."
This came on the heels of the WayGB figuring out that I was posting on Waydale and Grease Spot Cafe and my speaking up about several doctrines that I did not believe could be biblically supported.
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GeorgeStGeorge
3 and 5
My "chronic weakness" was challenging leadership!
George
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doojable
All these reasons for being Marked and Avoided - reminds me of this song: Read all the "secrets""Dirty Little Secret" =
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dmiller
A little of both for me. The more I asked questions, the less they liked having me around.
Got to the point where I went less and less to twig, on my own volition.
No fun, fellowship was *strained*, fake smiles, etc. I'm sure you all know the *drill*, eh?
Finally (after dragging myself to twig one day), it was *suggested* that perhaps I should not come back. I acquieced, and didn't go back --- more for my sake than theirs!!
One person there at the twig found out I had a copy of the *Overview* tapes by JAL.
She wondered (aloud) at twig why these weren't being listened to and considered or discussed.
I don't remember the exact response that she got from *leadership*, but it wasn't positive.
She then told (whoever was in charge here that year),
that she was gonna get hold of me, and listen to them.
She got the word that I was a *bad apple*, and not to contact me at all.
Short of the long of it is -- she did. She came to my house and listened to all 3 hours of those tapes.
JAL laid it all out on the line in his *overview* of twi, and all that had gone on.
She wasn't happy (after hearing the tapes), because she (like a lot of us)
thought docvic could do no evil.
If I recollect correct -- she was M & A'd from twig immediately after --
just because she came here to hear *The Rest Of The Story*.
Yup --- twi is a *loving, friendly family* group intent on spreading the Love/ Gospel of Jesus Christ.
RIGHTTTT!!!!! (Not in ANYONE'S dreams!)
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WordWolf
Ditto.
When lcm drew his "line in the sand"(1988-1989), I did my own investigating,
and-based on what lcm himself and his cronies said themselves,
I made tracks.
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DogLover
I left, then Jim Do*r marked and avoided me to protect his dwindling flock from my talking to them. It was a case of anger on his part ... I "quit" and THEN he said, "You can't quit, you're fired." So immature .. spiritually and otherwise.
As Bugs Bunny would say, "What a maroon!"
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outintexas
1). You were in debt.
3) Leadership said you had a chronic weakness in your life.
It was #1 and #3. I was guilty of "treachery." That was the word that was used probably half a dozen times on the final phone call I got. That's what I got for giving them 25 years of my life.
What really happened was I couldn't keep up with the ever increasing pace of the twi treadmill. There is only so much time to work, raise a family and do twi activities. I was glad I got the boot because I didn't know what else to do. It didn't take long to realize I was much better off without twi.
That was almost nine years ago. Of course, now I don't care how I got out, I'm just glad that I'm out.
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TheHighWay
Let's see...
They had hubby and I pegged as "spiritually weak" for a few years but weren't willing to get rid of us because we were too whipped, and willing to do whatever they needed doing at the moment (clean a house, watch a kid, make a card, etc.)
Then the first lawsuit hit, and I got online. At first, I spoke to my hubby and the local leadership about what I was reading, and they were 'forgiving'... telling me that in the current climate of unrest, there were a lot of folks who were upset and looking in the wrong places for answers... and then they told me to stop. Don't get online. Don't talk to cop-outs. Don't question leadership. Don't question your husband. Don't think. Don't breathe. Don't do anything without our permission.
I couldn't do that. I stayed online. I kept talking to ex-wayers. I cleared my head of a lot of twi-bs. And they caught me. Showed up on my doorstep with printouts of some of my posts. Looked me right in the eye and said I was Mark and Avoid. I felt so special.
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rascal
Wow highway, what a story.
How sneaky of THEM to be online to catch YOU on line...lol How much time did they spend there to gather evidence....man what weeners....lol
I wish that I had been important enough to m&a ...they just moved the fellowship and wouldn`t tell me where.....hee hee
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GeorgeStGeorge
There was definitely treachery there, but not on YOUR part. <_<
George
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TheHighWay
Rascal... they weren't dubbed the Way-GB for nothing...
I and a few others found out the hard way that HQ had paid staff surfing WayDale and Greasespot looking for folks who were still in, but posting online. That's why folks around here are quick to warn any newcomers who seem to be saying too much about themselves, just in case they think "this is the last place twi-bots would look". Whether the WayGB are still around these days, in the "kinder, gentler twi" who knows? Better safe than sorry.
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Ham
I don't know if I was ever marked and avoided by twi.. I THINK I have that designation in an offshoot however.
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outintexas
Good point. Thanks, George. :)
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Mark Clarke
Reason #5, but not from TWI. Ironically, I was M&A'd from an offshoot group that previously had openly criticized TWI's practices. The (rotten) apple doesn't fall far from the tree. They got into the same mindset of "we are right and everybody else is wrong" and started quoting scriptures about turning away from those who don't hold the truth. When I pointed out that those scriptures are referring to those who reject Christ and the Gospel, not those fellow Christians who disagree on points of doctrine, I was told I was no longer welcome to fellowship with them. And other church members shunned my wife and me (except for one that openly berated my wife in the middle of a grocery store!)
The interesting thing is, those posters above who said THEY M&A'd TWI were actually practicing the correct meaning of "mark and avoid." Rom. 16:17 - "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." In all these cases, who was it that was causing the divisions and offences - the ones who got kicked out, or the leaders of the corrupt organization?
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Eagle
I guess personally challenging leadership. My refusal to attend the fellowship/twig they apportioned to me. I did not get along with the coordinator, so it was best to let me cool off in another fellowship. Also, because of living in dire poverty then, I refused to tithe anymore because tithing did not improve my life, even after five years of doing it.
That sealed it, I think.
Well, and calling out a guy in the Corps and telling him to come out of his apartment to face me.
I was a peaceful guy before all this. I'm not joking. Honest to God I was. Kind of wimpy in my approach to Way leadership. One day it exploded. I feel bad about it now.
I was avoided like the plague, dirty looks and all.
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J0nny Ling0
I don't know if I was ever marked and avoided. Do any of you, who stayed with The Way after 1989 know? Many of you hung in there and rabidly persecuted people like me. I am Kevin Nye, 10th Corps, ex Way clergy. Did you mark me and avoid me? Never heard if I was. I do know that They probably had reason to mark me and avoid me, for, I ran a "safe house" for International Corps who had to leave because Craig kicked them out and off of HQ grounds with less than a 24 hour notice. I had New Zealander's, Aussies, a Greek guy, and some Americans holed up in my home in Maryland because they had no place to go. I helped them escape the rabid, wicked, and evil persecution that they endured simply because like me, they decided to think and make their own decisions, instead of act like fearful automatons and stay "In".
I had Larry Panarello and his punk foot minions in the DC area trying to break up my marriage and infiltrate my home when I wasn't there, because they knew I was "reactionary". I tried to, and successfully, helped my International friends escape the intolerable scene that they found themselves in. I got them jobs, helped them get up the money to fly back to their Home Countries, gave them a place to lay their heads, fed them, and all the while not only trying to help them make sense of it all, but also struggling in my own heart and mind to try and make sense of it all. All the while trying to be a Husband and Dad, and trying to help my wife try to make sense of it all. So, was I on that list of "Mark and Avoid"? Was I? Did any of you here know if I was on that list? I bailed when it was so obvious that things were way WRONG. Did any of you who stayed for many many more years ever notice my name on that list? If I was on that list, no doubt those actions had something to do with it...
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