The Healing Image

[markomalley]

OKC WOW,

Since White Dove is determined to make this a doctrinal discussion, I feel that you are owed both sides of the story. The other side of the story is straight from scripture. I am quoting the first passage with lots of context so that I can't be accused of taking a verse or two out of context.

Jhn 6:32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

Jhn 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world."

Jhn 6:34 They said to him, "Lord, give us this bread always."

Jhn 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.

Jhn 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.

Jhn 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;

Jhn 6:39 and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jhn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."

Jhn 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"

Jhn 6:43 Jesus answered them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.

Jhn 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.

Jhn 6:46 Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father.

Jhn 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Jhn 6:48 I am the bread of life.

Jhn 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever;

and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh

."

Jhn 6:52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying,

"How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Jhn 6:53 So Jesus said to them,

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

Jhn 6:54

he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:55

For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Jhn 6:56

He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Jhn 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.

Jhn 6:58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

Jhn 6:59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper'na-um.

Jhn 6:60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"

Jhn 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?

Jhn 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.

Jhn 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Jhn 6:66

After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

Jhn 6:67 Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?"

Jhn 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;

Jhn 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."

Please note the bolded text in Jhn 6:53-6:56. Note the number of times he repeated the same thing. Had he been speaking metaphorically, would he have repeated it so many times adding emphasis (and if you assert this, please show me where he said the same thing 5 times in a row and was speaking metaphorically).

Also, if it is obvious he was speaking metaphorically, why would many of his disciples draw back and no longer go about with him (v66)? If it was obviously a metaphor, then don't you think that they would recognize this? Or, barring that, don't you think he would say "hey guys, I was speaking symbolically here." (He did so a number of times when explaining parables elsewhere, you'll recall)

1 Cor 11:29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.

(Note the word discerning is διακρίνων (from diakrino) to evaluate, recognize, consider.)

If you'd like to see the context of this verse, you need to start off with I Cor 10:15 and read throughout to this point. He covers a lot of points, but they all circle around participation in the Eucharist.

So we have St. John reporting the words of Jesus very directly. We have St. Paul criticizing people for not recognizing the Body of Christ in the Eucharist.

As verification that this is what, in fact, the apostles were talking about, we can look to St. Ignatius of Antioch, a student of St. John. In 110 AD (Only a few years after the Apocolypse was written), he wrote, in a letter to the Smyrnaens, the following:

But consider those who are of a different opinion

with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ,

which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes.

But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again.

(If you want to read it for yourself, you can see it here (Catholic source) or here (Protestant source))

I'm really not trying to start a doctrinal argument with White Dove. He believes what he wants and I believe what I want. But since he is insistent upon pushing his understanding down your throat, I figure that you need the other side of the story, as well.

Now, in addition to being a really nice guy, White Dove is also a pretty sharp person. And I would bet that if anybody could come up with chapter and verse that explicitly says that the Eucharist is only symbollically the Body and Blood of Christ, then he would be that one. Or if anybody could show that the Eucharist is nothing of importance at all in the spiritual life of the Christian, I am also equally certain that he would be the one who could do so.

But I don't think that even White Dove could do so...unless he engages in some major gymnastics.

So here's the bottom line: you can go with what scripture clearly says and what has been the consistent interpretation of scripture from the first century...or you can go with what White Dove says. Honestly, I am not really trying to convince you one way or the other; I'm just trying to make sure that both sides of the story are reflected here.

[WhiteDove]

It's always inteesting to see some different sides to things. Mark gives me too much credit and it is late and I'm being lazy today but here are some other POV on the subject.

Click

Click

Click

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Edited February 6, 2008 by WhiteDove

[cheranne]

What makes you think that I am not?

There are some here that would disagree with your point of view there, some think that VPW was useless to God .

Now Me personally, I'm not interested in a God or anyone else for that matter that uses me. I think someone said things are to be used people are not. "Lord use me" That sounds like something Saint Francis would say, it makes a nice song to wave your hands to, but no thanks no church with you.

i was not thinking of vpw. I was not thinking of use in the way meaning abuse! I not here to quote scripture either dude

[excathedra]

ohmygod is this another religious teaching or argument thread ?

i just got off the forgiveness thread

everyone seems to be into proving their beliefs

maybe it's me maybe it's late

[markomalley]

ohmygod is this another religious teaching or argument thread ?

i just got off the forgiveness thread

everyone seems to be into proving their beliefs

maybe it's me maybe it's late

Actually I really don't want to get into it. But when somebody wants to repeatedly shove his/her beliefs down another's throat, I think it's necessary and appropriate to make sure that the other side of the story is presented.

[cheranne]

Actually I really don't want to get into it. But when somebody wants to repeatedly shove his/her beliefs down another's throat, I think it's necessary and appropriate to make sure that the other side of the story is presented.

I just think its rude,why don't those kinda people just go start a new topic..you know heRE at the greaseapot i thought it was for ALL PEOPLE WHO

WERE INVOLVED IN TWI,FOR LOVED ONES OF PEOPLE THAT WERE IN THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT BROUGHT THEM TO JOIN A CULT.

their are many people that for some reason are another may want to respond to sra abuse,to growing up catholic and the good things about,seeds planted along their lives,people just coming too this website like i just got here a few weeks ago,i am intrested in HEALING .

[WhiteDove]

Then again when someone touts the loveliness of cult doctrine that is anything but lovely I think it is fair game for discussion. I don't recall seeing Jesus eat other peoples flesh and drink their blood it seems out of character for him to ask us to do that which he did not. Never mind something that is clearly against the law. I also wonder why this practice did not surface until the 9th century A.D. Just some things that make you go......HUM

[cheranne]

Then again when someone touts the loveliness of cult doctrine that is anything but lovely I think it is fair game for discussion. I don't recall seeing Jesus eat other peoples flesh and drink their blood it seems out of character for him to ask us to do that which he did not. Never mind something that is clearly against the law. I also wonder why this practice did not surface until the 9th century A.D. Just some things that make you go......HUM

You just don't get it do you. TWI is a CULT , THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT A CULT.

[mstar1]

I have no dog in this fight, Im not catholic Ive just been lurking, but for my two cents I did think it was rude that WhiteDove jumped in obssesing about cannibalism.

(That was weirder than any doctrine )

There are plenty of other places to post your views or for you to start an anticatholicism or anticannibalism thread or whatever without being obnoxious about it.. Is that so difficult?

[WhiteDove]

You just don't get it do you. TWI is a CULT , THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT A CULT.

Based on whose opinion? Yours there are many besides myself that would think otherwise.

[WhiteDove]

I have no dog in this fight, Im not catholic Ive just been lurking, but for my two cents I did think it was rude that WhiteDove jumped in obssesing about cannibalism.

(That was weirder than any doctrine )

There are plenty of other places to post your views or for you to start an anticatholicism or anticannibalism thread or whatever without being obnoxious about it.. Is that so difficult?

Perhaps Mstar, then again post something considered pro way and see if everyone starts their own thread in response, Won't happen. This is a discussion board and if one puts out for discussion the loveliness of a groups doctrine then I would expect the same treatment any other cult doctrine gets here. Sorry but I did not invent the doctrine they did, and apparently there are more than a few besides myself who see this as an issue do a search and you'll see many others see and feel the same. Is there another kinder word for eating another's flesh? Because admittedly that's what the church says they believe. I don't believe that is what Jesus would have us doing I don't see that habit pattern in his life nor the lives of his followers. I find it odd that people are appalled at Jeffery Dahmer yet seem ok with the fact that Catholics every day promote eating the flesh and blood of Jesus. I think that qualifies as cult like activity and in fact has more in common with Satanic worship than Christian.

[cheranne]

Perhaps Mstar, then again post something considered pro way and see if everyone starts their own thread in response, Won't happen. This is a discussion board and if one puts out for discussion the loveliness of a groups doctrine then I would expect the same treatment any other cult doctrine gets here. Sorry but I did not invent the doctrine they did, and apparently there are more than a few besides myself who see this as an issue do a search and you'll see many others see and feel the same. Is there another kinder word for eating another's flesh? Because admittedly that's what the church says they believe. I don't believe that is what Jesus would have us doing I don't see that habit pattern in his life nor the lives of his followers. I find it odd that people are appalled at Jeffery Dahmer yet seem ok with the fact that Catholics every day promote eating the flesh and blood of Jesus. I think that qualifies as cult like activity and in fact has more in common with Satanic worship than Christian.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about! Change your little sign from white dove to jack foot.

[WhiteDove]

You don't have a clue what you are talking about! Change your little sign from white dove to jack foot.

Then again I have offered some evidence or reasons for what I have posted ,you on the other hand have offered none to support your ideas, when you have one that is. Mostly you just post stupid little comments like the above post Change your little sign from white dove to jack foot. That just might be a clue as to what you know.......

[cheranne]

That is a LOVELY account of the Mass. It is a pity when people lose that faith and only see the motions.

i was in china town last night and i loved the place,so many multicultural people..the human

race! I saw a people of all walks of life with ashes on their forehead(i had forgotten it was

ash wednesday. Ashes to ashes ....dust to dust .

The body of christ was alive and well,the FAMILY of God, like the human race is composed of

all differant types of people and personalitys,but in the end of the NBA game.

THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS BEAT THE WIZARDS!

[excathedra]

i'm sorry if i was rude

sometimes my head spins

no please don't think of regan :)

[markomalley]

i was in china town last night and i loved the place,so many multicultural people..the human

race! I saw a people of all walks of life with ashes on their forehead(i had forgotten it was

ash wednesday. Ashes to ashes ....dust to dust .

The body of christ was alive and well,the FAMILY of God, like the human race is composed of

all differant types of people and personalitys,but in the end of the NBA game.

THE SAN ANTONIO SPURS BEAT THE WIZARDS!

St. Mary Mother of God Parish (on 5th St., across from the Irish Channel Pub?)). Beautiful old church!

You are kidding! We go there about once a month. My daughter drags us down there for the 9AM Tridentine (Old Latin Rite) Mass.

[excathedra]

i go to st. patrick's cathedral and send my mom holy water

[cheranne]

St. Mary Mother of God Parish (on 5th St., across from the Irish Channel Pub?)). Beautiful old church!

You are kidding! We go there about once a month. My daughter drags us down there for the 9AM Tridentine (Old Latin Rite) Mass.

MY what a small world! We were going to NBA GAME at verizon center,what a greaat place!

Ever see the homeless guy playing drums(he is good) he made lots of money last night. BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE.

[cheranne]

Perhaps Mstar, then again post something considered pro way and see if everyone starts their own thread in response, Won't happen. This is a discussion board and if one puts out for discussion the loveliness of a groups doctrine then I would expect the same treatment any other cult doctrine gets here. Sorry but I did not invent the doctrine they did, and apparently there are more than a few besides myself who see this as an issue do a search and you'll see many others see and feel the same. Is there another kinder word for eating another's flesh? Because admittedly that's what the church says they believe. I don't believe that is what Jesus would have us doing I don't see that habit pattern in his life nor the lives of his followers. I find it odd that people are appalled at Jeffery Dahmer yet seem ok with the fact that Catholics every day promote eating the flesh and blood of Jesus. I think that qualifies as cult like activity and in fact has more in common with Satanic worship than Christian.

You must be thinking of the DONNER PARTY. and i really wonder what your idea of satanic

worship is?