The questions you are asking are, indeed, excellent ones.
Many here have pondered and discussed these questions in great detail.
For starters, allow me to first say that, in my opinion, TWI(The Way International) was way off-base on this seed of Satan thinking.
Someone told a good friend of mine that he was born of the wrong seed and he killed himself.
He was an out-patient at a psychiatric hospital and was in a fragile state of mind at the time.
Of course, then they said he killed himself because he had a spirit of suicide.
He was just a mixed up kid who needed some guidance and love but instead lost his life.
Where's the love of God in that?
I don't think this seed of the Devil thing is even Biblical other than the reference cited in the Gospels.
I could be wrong about that part. I'm definitely not a Biblical scholar.
If the Bible is true, then it's God's desire for us to love our fellow man, treat him with respect and fairness and do what we can to help those in need. If we can squeeze all of that into one short lifetime, I think we're doing pretty darn good!!
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
nothing here saids if you do this sin you will not be saved but you are danger of eternal damnation
otherwise your life style can be changed or your actions
if all sins can be forgiven and one can not there are two kinds of sins
fleshly sins are all foegiveable but spiritual sins are not
Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
looks like blasphemy is a spoken statement against God but I think its more of a life style of living a life style against God
but I am seeing I only understand in part on this part of God's word
but I do know if your asking you have nothing to worry about
So then I am confused, what is considered a spiritual sin as oppsed to a fleshly sin? And do you mean by a lifestyle against God like some one who holds genuine hate toward God, and manifest that hate by what he says and how he lives? I can remember one time a few years back I was going through a really dark depression, and I remmber saying to my wife that I wish God would just kill me and get it over with, I was truly angry. Is that an unforgiveable spiritual sin?????
God first
Beloved ChuckLuck74
God loves you my dear friend
lets look at Mark 3:28-29
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
nothing here saids if you do this sin you will not be saved but you are danger of eternal damnation
otherwise your life style can be changed or your actions
if all sins can be forgiven and one can not there are two kinds of sins
fleshly sins are all foegiveable but spiritual sins are not
Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
looks like blasphemy is a spoken statement against God but I think its more of a life style of living a life style against God
but I am seeing I only understand in part on this part of God's word
but I do know if your asking you have nothing to worry about
In my opinion(and that's all it is) we have two concepts in play here.
1. We were taught in PLAF(misspelling intentional) that to even question "the integrity of The Word"( whatever the heck that actually means) is the first step in our downward spiral.
That is from session #7.
It's a control mechanism, plain and simple.
There is no Biblical basis for that concept.
VPW said "Thus it is so" and we believed him.
Shame on us. me.
God made us.
He expects us to question things, doubt things, try to prove things, etc., etc.
That is part of the way He made us.
2. The concept of a sin that is so heinous that commission of it would doom us for eternity.
(another control mechanism.)
Where is this actually found in the Bible?
Again, I'm not qualified as a scholar, by any stretch of the word, but I have never been able to find this in my attempts to locate it. In fact,there is never any mention made of people going to "hell" in the Bible.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and make some harsh statements.
TWI was a cult and a scam.
VPW was a calculating con-man.
You got fooled. I got fooled. We all got fooled.
Yes, I know it hurts to come to that realization.
And yet, it's comforting to realize it wasn't your fault for acting out of benevolence.
God does not blame you for the misdeeds of the TWI hierarchy.
If it is important enough for you to even ponder these questions, it speaks volumes about the concern you have to do the right (or Godly, if you prefer) thing.
I know this has been touched on here and there on the doctrinal forums, but I am still confused on what it means to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I mean I know the TWI take on the a person can chose to be born of either God's seed or the Devil's seed, and this decision to accept either seed is permanent and cannot be undone, but is this really the case. I have even went as far as to ask other people from other denominations, and I get even a wider array of answers such as blapheming the holy spirit is commiting sucide, or it is not accepting Christ as your savior. What also intrigues me is when CHrist spoke of this blaspheming, he said (to the acussing Pharasies) they are of their father the devil, is that because they didn't accept him as the son of God. Is it because they sought to murder him without any consideration that they might be actually murdering God's only son? There doesn't seem to be any clear cut scriptures about it. I have often wondered if we don't know what blasphemeing the holy spirit is, then how do we know we haven't done it, losing all hope of salvation and acceptance by God. TWI answer to this question was simply this: You can speak in tongues, so you are saved no matter what? ANd is that even possible, is being saved a one time deal, or is salvation something you can lose due to your carnal sins. BEcause I know I am not without sin, THis is the kind of stuff the keeps me up at night, but when I think of my everlasting life and existence with the heavealy Father, and that it might not happen, it chills me to the bone.
It is interesting to note that in John 8:37ff "If the Son makes you free....(free from being in bondage to sins) ye shall be free indeed" Because whoever commits sin is the servant of it. But then Jesus tell them that He knows that they are Abraham's direct lineage, however, because they were thinking murderous thoughts in their hearts, just as Cain thought of murder in his heart at first as well. Jesus speaks of the devil as being a murderer from the very beginning. I think this very beginning was with Adam and Eve and not Cain, which is why Cain inherited the iniquity of murder from his parents. It is also interesting to read in v38... "I speak that which I have seen with MY father..." You DO that which ye have sen with your Father" Why did they want to kill Him? Because He had told them the truth and they believed Him not. So therefore, they were of their father the devil because he
was a murdered from the beginning and a LIAR and couldn't hear the Words of God." This particular verse doesn't directly speak of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which in Greek to blaspheme means: "to defame, revile, slander; to speak of God or divine things in terms of impious irreverence, to blaspheme."
However, in Matt 12 and Luke 12, it does speak directly about blaspheming the HS. The text is clear that if anyone speaks against Jesus, it will be forgiven
if the person asks for it later. However, to speak against the HS and I would guess that it would be about His workings, His leadings etc. Look at the following verse....varry interesting....the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what you ought to say. It does make you wonder if you are taught by the HS to speak a certain thing and you refuse or you directly contradict it, if that isn't what it really is. Because if you directly contradict...are you not in essence calling the HS a liar? Even more interesting is the record in Matt 12 that Jesus was telling them that he was casting out demons by the SPIRIT OF GOD, i.e. HS. Could it also have an element of calling the workings of the HS the works of the devil? Or perhaps trying to cast demons out with some other spirit, fooling the onlookers etc.
So then I am confused, what is considered a spiritual sin as oppsed to a fleshly sin?
if you can do it with your mouth or any fleshly act of works done fleshly its a fleshly sin
And do you mean by a lifestyle against God like some one who holds genuine hate toward God,
I am not sure but I think its more a deep desiring to fight against God than a one time weak fleshly feeling because of the things around you God knows we are flesh and blood
and manifest that hate by what he says and how he lives?
hate is just the dark side of love a normal feeling we all have but the key is not to focus on it
I can remember one time a few years back I was going through a really dark depression, and I remmber saying to my wife that I wish God would just kill me and get it over with, I was truly angry. most of us have done that
Is that an unforgiveable spiritual sin????? no
like waysider said "Stop beating yourself up, brother"
give it time your here because God is working with you to help you
this place has help me and it will help you
my life was were your life is some what as most others were
The church I study with now believes there are 2 ways to blaspeme the Holy Spirit. The first is to say something about God that is not true - Take His Name In Vain. Like saying God loves everybody. The God in the Bible is very specific about who He loves, and it does not include everybody all the time. (I know - God so loved the world. But then the person makes a decision to believe or not) So, to lie on Him is blasphemy.
The 2nd way is to commit a sin that you can't get forgiveness for. The Law calls it to sin wilfully...As does the Testimony. If you sin on purpose, there is nothing left but a certain firey judgment. That also is blasphemy. The key to forgiveness is repentence, but if someone TRULY sins ON PURPOSE (Hope I never find out anything about it personally) then they cannot repent, because it was willful in the first place.
The Psalms are full of what is going to happen to these people in the (Near) future. Hope this adds a different spin on it - I like to give folks something totally innovative and yet so simple to consider.
But isn't a sin a willful one, I mean is there a sin that is considered unwillful?? I know there are believers out there who have willfully sinned, I know I have, but I know the bible teaches that if we confess our sins, he willl forgive, because we are still beings of the flesh. I dunno, I am just trying to dispell some of the wrong teachings I have had. Becaue I desire to know as much of the truth as I can, so I can help speak it properly and without error or hypocrisy. And I do appreciate you guys taking the time to read and respond to my posts, this has been some stuff that has been bothering for some time now.
The church I study with now believes there are 2 ways to blaspeme the Holy Spirit. The first is to say something about God that is not true - Take His Name In Vain. Like saying God loves everybody. The God in the Bible is very specific about who He loves, and it does not include everybody all the time. (I know - God so loved the world. But then the person makes a decision to believe or not) So, to lie on Him is blasphemy.
The 2nd way is to commit a sin that you can't get forgiveness for. The Law calls it to sin wilfully...As does the Testimony. If you sin on purpose, there is nothing left but a certain firey judgment. That also is blasphemy. The key to forgiveness is repentence, but if someone TRULY sins ON PURPOSE (Hope I never find out anything about it personally) then they cannot repent, because it was willful in the first place.
The Psalms are full of what is going to happen to these people in the (Near) future. Hope this adds a different spin on it - I like to give folks something totally innovative and yet so simple to consider.
I know this has been touched on here and there on the doctrinal forums, but I am still confused on what it means to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I mean I know the TWI take on the a person can chose to be born of either God's seed or the Devil's seed, and this decision to accept either seed is permanent and cannot be undone, but is this really the case. I have even went as far as to ask other people from other denominations, and I get even a wider array of answers such as blapheming the holy spirit is commiting sucide, or it is not accepting Christ as your savior. What also intrigues me is when CHrist spoke of this blaspheming, he said (to the acussing Pharasies) they are of their father the devil, is that because they didn't accept him as the son of God. Is it because they sought to murder him without any consideration that they might be actually murdering God's only son? There doesn't seem to be any clear cut scriptures about it. I have often wondered if we don't know what blasphemeing the holy spirit is, then how do we know we haven't done it, losing all hope of salvation and acceptance by God. TWI answer to this question was simply this: You can speak in tongues, so you are saved no matter what? ANd is that even possible, is being saved a one time deal, or is salvation something you can lose due to your carnal sins. BEcause I know I am not without sin, THis is the kind of stuff the keeps me up at night, but when I think of my everlasting life and existence with the heavealy Father, and that it might not happen, it chills me to the bone.
Welcome to GSC. And to the Doctrinal Basement.
You will find a host of different beliefs here.
The Church identifies six sins against the Holy Spirit:
Presumption (of forgiveness)
Despair (belief that your sin is too great to forgive)
Resisting the known truth
Envy of another’s spiritual good
Obstinacy in sin
Final impenitence (i.e., refusing to repent of sins until you die)
St. Thomas Aquinas has the following to say in his Summa Theologica (II.II)
Article 1. Whether the sin against the Holy Ghost is the same as the sin committed through certain malice?
Objection 1. It would seem that the sin against the Holy Ghost is not the same as the sin committed through certain malice. Because the sin against the Holy Ghost is the sin of blasphemy, according to Matthew 12:32. But not every sin committed through certain malice is a sin of blasphemy: since many other kinds of sin may be committed through certain malice. Therefore the sin against the Holy Ghost is not the same as the sin committed through certain malice.
Objection 2. Further, the sin committed through certain malice is condivided with sin committed through ignorance, and sin committed through weakness: whereas the sin against the Holy Ghost is condivided with the sin against the Son of Man (Matthew 12:32). Therefore the sin against the Holy Ghost is not the same as the sin committed through certain malice, since things whose opposites differ, are themselves different.
Objection 3. Further, the sin against the Holy Ghost is itself a generic sin, having its own determinate species: whereas sin committed through certain malice is not a special kind of sin, but a condition or general circumstance of sin, which can affect any kind of sin at all. Therefore the sin against the Holy Ghost is not the same as the sin committed through certain malice.
On the contrary, The Master says (Sent. ii, D, 43) that "to sin against the Holy Ghost is to take pleasure in the malice of sin for its own sake." Now this is to sin through certain malice. Therefore it seems that the sin committed through certain malice is the same as the sin against the Holy Ghost.
I answer that, Three meanings have been given to the sin against the Holy Ghost. For the earlier doctors, viz. Athanasius (Super Matth. xii, 32), Hilary (Can. xii in Matth.), Ambrose (Super Luc. xii, 10), Jerome (Super Matth. xii), and Chrysostom (Hom. xli in Matth.), say that the sin against the Holy Ghost is literally to utter a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, whether by Holy Spirit we understand the essential name applicable to the whole Trinity, each Person of which is a Spirit and is holy, or the personal name of one of the Persons of the Trinity, in which sense blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is distinct from the blasphemy against the Son of Man (Matthew 12:32), for Christ did certain things in respect of His human nature, by eating, drinking, and such like actions, while He did others in respect of His Godhead, by casting out devils, raising the dead, and the like: which things He did both by the power of His own Godhead and by the operation of the Holy Ghost, of Whom He was full, according to his human nature. Now the Jews began by speaking blasphemy against the Son of Man, when they said (Matthew 11:19) that He was "a glutton . . . a wine drinker," and a "friend of publicans": but afterwards they blasphemed against the Holy Ghost, when they ascribed to the prince of devils those works which Christ did by the power of His own Divine Nature and by the operation of the Holy Ghost.
Augustine, however (De Verb. Dom., Serm. lxxi), says that blasphemy or the sin against the Holy Ghost, is final impenitence when, namely, a man perseveres in mortal sin until death, and that it is not confined to utterance by word of mouth, but extends to words in thought and deed, not to one word only, but to many. Now this word, in this sense, is said to be uttered against the Holy Ghost, because it is contrary to the remission of sins, which is the work of the Holy Ghost, Who is the charity both of the Father and of the Son. Nor did Our Lord say this to the Jews, as though they had sinned against the Holy Ghost, since they were not yet guilty of final impenitence, but He warned them, lest by similar utterances they should come to sin against the Holy Ghost: and it is in this sense that we are to understand Mark 3:29-30, where after Our Lord had said: "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost," etc. the Evangelist adds, "because they said: He hath an unclean spirit."
But others understand it differently, and say that the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, is a sin committed against that good which is appropriated to the Holy Ghost: because goodness is appropriated to the Holy Ghost, just a power is appropriated to the Father, and wisdom to the Son. Hence they say that when a man sins through weakness, it is a sin "against the Father"; that when he sins through ignorance, it is a sin "against the Son"; and that when he sins through certain malice, i.e. through the very choosing of evil, as explained above (I-II, 78, 1 ,3), it is a sin "against the Holy Ghost."
Now this may happen in two ways. First by reason of the very inclination of a vicious habit which we call malice, and, in this way, to sin through malice is not the same as to sin against the Holy Ghost. On another way it happens that by reason of contempt, that which might have prevented the choosing of evil, is rejected or removed; thus hope is removed by despair, and fear by presumption, and so on, as we shall explain further on (Q 20,21). Now all these things which prevent the choosing of sin are effects of the Holy Ghost in us; so that, in this sense, to sin through malice is to sin against the Holy Ghost.
Reply to Objection 1. Just as the confession of faith consists in a protestation not only of words but also of deeds, so blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can be uttered in word, thought and deed.
Reply to Objection 2. According to the third interpretation, blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is condivided with blasphemy against the Son of Man, forasmuch as He is also the Son of God, i.e. the "power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24). Wherefore, in this sense, the sin against the Son of Man will be that which is committed through ignorance, or through weakness.
Reply to Objection 3. Sin committed through certain malice, in so far as it results from the inclination of a habit, is not a special sin, but a general condition of sin: whereas, in so far as it results from a special contempt of an effect of the Holy Ghost in us, it has the character of a special sin. According to this interpretation the sin against the Holy Ghost is a special kind of sin, as also according to the first interpretation: whereas according to the second, it is not a species of sin, because final impenitence may be a circumstance of any kind of sin.
Pope +John Paul II had the following to say about it (in the Encyclical Dominum et Vivificantem)
46 Against the background of what has been said so far, certain other words of Jesus, shocking and disturbing ones, become easier to understand. We might call them the words of "unforgiveness." They are reported for us by the Synoptics in connection with a particular sin which is called "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." This is how they are reported in their three versions:
Matthew: "Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
180
Mark: "All sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
181
Luke: "Every one who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."
182
Why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit unforgivable? How should this blasphemy be understood ? St. Thomas Aquinas replies that it is a question of a sin that is "unforgivable by its very nature, insofar as it excludes the elements through which the forgiveness of sin takes place."
183
According to such an exegesis, "blasphemy" does not properly consist in offending against the Holy Spirit in words; it consists rather in the refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit, working through the power of the Cross. If man rejects the "convincing concerning sin" which comes from the Holy Spirit and which has the power to save, he also rejects the "coming" of the Counselor-that "coming" which was accomplished in the Paschal Mystery, in union with the redemptive power of Christ's Blood: the Blood which "purifies the conscience from dead works."
We know that the result of such a purification is the forgiveness of sins. Therefore, whoever rejects the Spirit and the Blood remains in "dead works," in sin. And the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit consists precisely in the radical refusal to accept this forgiveness, of which he is the intimate giver and which presupposes the genuine conversion which he brings about in the conscience. If Jesus says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven either in this life or in the next, it is because this "non-forgiveness" is linked, as to its cause, to "non-repentance," in other words to the radical refusal to be converted. This means the refusal to come to the sources of Redemption, which nevertheless remain "always" open in the economy of salvation in which the mission of the Holy Spirit is accomplished. The Spirit has infinite power to draw from these sources: "he will take what is mine," Jesus said. In this way he brings to completion in human souls the work of the Redemption accomplished by Christ, and distributes its fruits. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then, is the sin committed by the person who claims to have a "right" to persist in evil-in any sin at all-and who thus rejects Redemption. One closes oneself up in sin, thus making impossible one's conversion, and consequently the remission of sins, which one considers not essential or not important for one's life. This is a state of spiritual ruin, because blasphemy against the Holy Spirit does not allow one to escape from one's self-imposed imprisonment and open oneself to the divine sources of the purification of consciences and of the remission of sins.
47 The action of the Spirit of truth, which works toward salvific "convincing concerning sin," encounters in a person in this condition an interior resistance, as it were an impenetrability of conscience, a state of mind which could be described as fixed by reason of a free choice. This is what Sacred Scripture usually calls "hardness of heart."
184
In our own time this attitude of mind and heart is perhaps reflected in the loss of the sense of sin, to which the Apostolic Exhortation Reconciliatio et Paenitentia devotes many pages.
185
Pope Pius XII had already declared that "the sin of the century is the loss of the sense of sin,"
186
and this loss goes hand in hand with the "loss of the sense of God." In the Exhortation just mentioned we read: "In fact, God is the origin and the supreme end of man, and man carries in himself a divine seed. Hence it is the reality of God that reveals and illustrates the mystery of man. It is therefore vain to hope that there will take root a sense of sin against man and against human values, if there is no sense of offense against God, namely the true sense of sin."
187
Hence the Church constantly implores from God the grace that integrity of human consciences will not be lost, that their healthy sensitivity with regard to good and evil will not be blunted. This integrity and sensitivity are profoundly linked to the intimate action of the Spirit of truth. In this light the exhortations of St. Paul assume particular eloquence: "Do not quench the Spirit"; "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit."188 But above all the Church constantly implores with the greatest fervor that there will be no increase in the world of the sin that the Gospel calls "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." Rather, she prays that it will decrease in human souls-and consequently in the forms and structures of society itself-and that it will make room for that openness of conscience necessary for the saving action of the Holy Spirit. The Church prays that the dangerous sin against the Spirit will give way to a holy readiness to accept his mission as the Counselor, when he comes to "convince the world concerning sin, and righteousness and judgment."
180. Mt 12:31f.
181. Mk 3:28f.
182. Lk 12:10.
183. St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theo.IIa-IIae, q. 14, a. 3: cf. St. Augustine, Epist. 185, 11, 48-49: PL 33, 814f.; St. Bonaventure Comment. in Evang. S. Lucae, Ch. XIV, 15-16: Ad Claras Aquas VII, 314f.
184. Cf. Ps 81/80:13; Jer 7:24; Mk 3:5.
185. Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation Reconciliatio et Paenitentia (December 2, 1984), n. 18: AAS 77 (1985), pp. 224-228.
186. Pius XII, Radio Message to the National Catechetical Congress of the United States of America in Boston (October 26, 1946): Discorsi e Radiomessaggi, VIII (1946), 228.
187. Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation Reconciliatio et Paenitentia (December 2, 1984), n. 18: AAS 77 (1985), pp. 225f
(In case you haven't figured this one out, I am the token Catholic around here)
If we take a look at the actual text of St. Matthew, we see the following:
I bring the Greek up here because of an interesting little tidbit in v. 32. When speaking about man, it says: εἴπῃ λόγον (eipon logos), but when speaking about the Holy Spirit, only the word εἴπῃ (eipon). The word eipon is the verb and refers to utterance without regard to the content uttered (thus the expression εἴπῃ λόγον eipon logos -- utter a word). It can also be considered a thought, as well (see Thayer's).
If you die prior to repenting of εἴπῃ κατὰ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ ἁγίου, then how can you be forgiven (consider I John)?
Every time I read about the suicide of Waysider's friend over the unforgivable sin I get sick to my stomach. TWI's screwed up doctrines can have such a horrific impact! May God have mercy on everyone who has spread such crap [myself included during my TWI daze].
Chuck, I think "willful" is a critical point in this issue. In the Matthew account, the unforgivable sin is mentioned right after a notable miracle was done. It was something so undeniably wrought by the Spirit of God [as noted by the crowds reaction in verse 23 and reaffirmed by Jesus' logic in verses 25-27].
Matthew 12:22-32 KJV
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
~~
The MacArthur Study Bible notes of this passage:
"…The sin He was confronting was the Pharisees' deliberate rejection of that which they knew to be of God [cf. John 11:48; acts 4:16]. They could not deny the reality of what the Holy Spirit had done through Him, so they attributed to Satan a work that they knew was of God [v.24; Mark 3;22].
Someone never exposed to Christ's divine power and presence might reject Him in ignorance and be forgiven – assuming the unbelief gives way to genuine repentance. Even a Pharisee such as Saul of Tarsus, could be forgiven for speaking against Jesus or persecuting His followers – because his unbelief stemmed from ignorance . But those who know His claims are true and reject Him anyway sin "against the Holy Spirit" – because it is the Holy Spirit who testifies of Christ and makes His truth known to us [John 15:26; 16:14, 15]. No forgiveness was possible for these Pharisees who witnessed His miracles firsthand, knew the truth of His claims, and still blasphemed the Holy Spirit – because they had already rejected the fullest possible revelation…"
End of excerpts
While in TWI I guess I had some fuzzy idea of the unforgivable sin being the worst sin one could commit – far above murder and adultery. But I think the "unforgivable" term may simply indicate the firm obstinacy of the sinner. For we know that God forgives anyone who is contrite.
If someone came to me now, and said I think I've committed the unforgivable sin. I think our discussion would involve the above passage and then perhaps try to ferret out what - if any - undeniable acts of the Holy Spirit this person witnessed and go from there...The fact that this person is concerned that they may have committed the unforgivable sin may be proof enough that they didn't since in Matthew and other related passages it seems the person who commits this sin is oblivious to the act.
2Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
3If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
Hebrews -
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
There are 2 types of sin - Sin with right intentions -In ignorance, and sin on prpos because you feel like it.
Leviticus 4
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
3If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
Please note that the animal sacrifice is offered for a sin. Now that Jesus died, we do not offer animals anymore, but we do still sin., right? Jesus took the place of the animal.
I know this has been touched on here and there on the doctrinal forums, but I am still confused on what it means to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I mean I know the TWI take on the a person can chose to be born of either God's seed or the Devil's seed, and this decision to accept either seed is permanent and cannot be undone, but is this really the case. I have even went as far as to ask other people from other denominations, and I get even a wider array of answers such as blapheming the holy spirit is commiting sucide, or it is not accepting Christ as your savior. What also intrigues me is when CHrist spoke of this blaspheming, he said (to the acussing Pharasies) they are of their father the devil, is that because they didn't accept him as the son of God. Is it because they sought to murder him without any consideration that they might be actually murdering God's only son? There doesn't seem to be any clear cut scriptures about it. I have often wondered if we don't know what blasphemeing the holy spirit is, then how do we know we haven't done it, losing all hope of salvation and acceptance by God. TWI answer to this question was simply this: You can speak in tongues, so you are saved no matter what? ANd is that even possible, is being saved a one time deal, or is salvation something you can lose due to your carnal sins. BEcause I know I am not without sin, THis is the kind of stuff the keeps me up at night, but when I think of my everlasting life and existence with the heavealy Father, and that it might not happen, it chills me to the bone.
Good questions, Chuck, and some good answers so far. I enjoyed reading them, all. The part I "bolded," above is of interest to me. I can't say I have the answer, but I'm seeking to know, as you are. I think you've touched on the root of the problem. What theologians call soteriology (a theory of salvation) underlies the discussion about "the unforgivable sin." Dr.W's soteriology was Ro.10:9,10. Others would add baptism or other things (like honest-to-goodness REPENTANCE! ya think?) Is "once saved always saved"? And this eternal kind of life, what is it? What of judgment, which any honest reading of Paul cannot deny that we will be judged for our deeds? And how does that work with the king's judgment in Matthew 25?
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his]sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Mt 25:31-46 AV)
In my own journey, I've concluded to leave the judging to the Lord. I don't judge myself "in" and others "in" or "out." I think Paul did the same thing. This does not preclude some certainties in the midst of uncertainty. One certainty I have is that the Lord loved me and gave himself for me. I know that I am called to do good, and not evil. Good is defined by love. I know that my "good works" can never make me worthy of salvation from sin and the consequences of sin. There is no balance sheet that I can tip by my efforts to make me worthy. Salvation is by grace through faith. And salvation comes in the name of God's son, Jesus Christ. I have a longer list of certainties, but those come to mind in the framework of this discussion.
I would like for you to be able to sleep at night, and I would like to settle certain nagging questions that remain in my own heart, but sometimes I think we intrude too far into what is God's realm alone. Yes, He's promised us eternal life, and yes, there are rewards for those good things done "in our bodies." My carnal mind was attracted to the concept of His word working "with a mathematical exactness and a scientific precision," and it appealed to me to have all these things figured out. However, what that did for me was that it put me in the frame of mind that I had God's "promises" all figured out, and could thereby make certain demands upon God based on my understanding of those "promises." After all, if I had "done my part" in regard to a certain promise, God was obligated to do His. I could make demand (boldly, of course) just like I would go to cash a check at the bank.
God has taught me otherwise. In my self-satisfied "workmanship of the word," I had lost my awe of God! And, of course, it was not my workmanship after all, it was that of another. Having read more widely in the nearly 20 years since I left the Way Ministry, I have seen how others have approached some of these issues (and, of course, I also now have the benefit of reading the wise words of people like Waysider, George Aar, and TBone!).
My own view is that life, this life right here, is a gift--every day of it, every moment of it. We are tested by success and we are tested by failure. We have the opportunity, again and again, to respond well or poorly. Throughout all of it, we are loved by God, and He will assist us in doing well. He will oppose us and chasten us when we do ill. To God, the present and the future are one with the past. His memory is as perfect as His understanding and His foreknowledge. He knows what was, what is, and what is to come. Any future I may have would also be a gift.
Having this outlook sort of precludes worrying about my eternal destiny. Do I look forward to the bema? Yes, I do, and I dread it as well. For there shall every man have his proper praise of God.
That record in Matthew 25 indicates that BOTH "the righteous" and those who go into irrevocable punishment will be surprised by the Lord's judgments. In particular, and of extreme interest to me, is the setting of this prophesy: the rest of the Book of Matthew, which is replete with account after account of Jesus' love of sinners, and continual confrontation of religious idiots, who had God all figured out. Not all who call him "lord, lord" have a cushy future assured!
Sorry, Im not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I know especially since I left the ministry, I have done willful sinning, I have even developed somewhat of a problem with smoking weed (is that considered a willful sin) with what I have read now, does that mean all hope for me is lost??? But even when I sin knowingly, I ask forgiveness and for grace and mercy. And this brings up another point, I was taught, as we all were, that when Hewbrews talks about there being no more sacrifices for them that have come into a knowledge of the truth, does that mean someone who has been taught the truth, but disregards it, or are we talking about a born believer. Again, I am sorry to keep this going, but I am doing my best to get through this and stomp out the fear I have of this subject. BEcause TWI had answered this question for me, but now I am unsure. A side note here, I had talked to Rev Shroyer before he passed, and he assured me that I was saved, he shared alot of the things that we have went over on this topic, but in the light of Christ died for me, I accepted him as my Savior, and am awaiting his return, and that salvation and enternal life couldn't be taken from me under any circumstance. I was also taught that when hebrews talks about there being no more sacrifices for the willfull sinner, it is because the ultimate sacrifice was already given by Jesus, and that a person could not be saved twice, once they accepted Christ, they were sealed, that Jesus was the bottomline sacrifice, jesus could not be crucified again as a sacrifice, because we already had all the forgiveness from sin from the sacrifice that God made avaible through Jesus's sacrifice. I am trying to do my best in be a better Christian, but I just have an ominious feeling that I may have already damed myself by what I have been doing, becaue my walk with God hasn't been exactly tight if you know what I mean. IF I have burned you guys out already, I understand if you don't want to post, this has been a very obsessive and fearful subject for me.
Leviticus 4
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
3If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
Hebrews -
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
There are 2 types of sin - Sin with right intentions -In ignorance, and sin on prpos because you feel like it.
Please note that the animal sacrifice is offered for a sin. Now that Jesus died, we do not offer animals anymore, but we do still sin., right? Jesus took the place of the animal.
Chuck, I think when a person expresses such dissatisfaction with their own shortcomings – it’s a healthy sign – a child of God becoming more aware of their fallen nature and longing for the new world. When you study Paul’s writings it seems like the more he matured in the Christian life, the more he became aware of how great a sinner he was…Just a thought…
It’s just my opinion – but I even think it’s kinda normal for folks to go wild after leaving the oppressive legalism of TWI.
I’m not one to preach how another should walk. I ain’t perfect…trying to love God and neighbor is a full time project, dontcha know…When it comes to dealing with sin – boy, I could write a few books on the subject – being an expert and all on how to commit it, that is. Yup, know what sin is available, how to commit it, what to do after you’ve committed it.
Seriously, though – TWI was weak on dealing with sin. They minimized it to broken fellowship and sabotaged the moral compass of followers by their insidious doctrines…After I left TWI, I’ve experienced a twofold force every time I fall – it’s been my Lord helping me back up and me feeling drawn to my Lord and wanting to get back up. You know, the Lord I believe, help my unbelief thing.
Anyway, say on brother. You’re not burning me out. This here’s a great place! Hang out relax – be yourself. Your honesty and humility is a beautiful thing!
do what ever you need to do because talking all ways helps
but I know especially since I left the ministry, I have done willful sinning,
I believe we know what we are doing when we sin but the different T-bone was teaching us was willily mocking a act of the holy spirit like gifts of healing which is in the context of the verses he used
I have even developed somewhat of a problem with smoking weed
I smoked weed and tried to kill myself since I left the Way and my mind was sound I knew what I was doing but God forgive me
I was sinning against natural my fleshly bodies design not against God
(is that considered a willful sin) with what I have read now, does that mean all hope for me is lost???
hope is never lost
But even when I sin knowingly, I ask forgiveness and for grace and mercy. then God forgives you
And this brings up another point, I was taught, as we all were, that when Hewbrews talks about there being no more sacrifices for them that have come into a knowledge of the truth, does that mean someone who has been taught the truth, but disregards it, or are we talking about a born believer.
not sure but I would bet the Way got it wrong
Again, I am sorry to keep this going, but I am doing my best to get through this and stomp out the fear I have of this subject.
try looking up or down and just straight forward asked Christ
BEcause TWI had answered this question for me, but now I am unsure. A side note here, I had talked to Rev Shroyer before he passed, and he assured me that I was saved,
Rev Shroyer was right I knew him personally while we did not agree on all points of docrtine we never stoped being friends
he shared alot of the things that we have went over on this topic, but in the light of Christ died for me, I accepted him as my Savior, and am awaiting his return, and that salvation and enternal life couldn't be taken from me under any circumstance.
the Way build years of fear in you as it did me but little by little I overcame
and what help me the most was written my life story with many dark secrets in it and when I put it in the open I saw it was just life the ups and downs of living fleshly
I was also taught that when hebrews talks about there being no more sacrifices for the willfull sinner, it is because the ultimate sacrifice was already given by Jesus, and that a person could not be saved twice, once they accepted Christ, they were sealed, that Jesus was the bottomline sacrifice, jesus could not be crucified again as a sacrifice, because we already had all the forgiveness from sin from the sacrifice that God made avaible through Jesus's sacrifice. I am trying to do my best in be a better Christian, but I just have an ominious feeling that I may have already damed myself by what I have been doing,
I sat here and look at God and asked him and God said " you have not damed yourself and he has been trying to tell you that " so asked him your self get peaceful and cry out to him
becaue my walk with God hasn't been exactly tight if you know what I mean. we all are human my friendIF I have burned you guys out already, I understand if you don't want to post, this has been a very obsessive and fearful subject for me.
But isn't a sin a willful one, I mean is there a sin that is considered unwillful?? I know there are believers out there who have willfully sinned, I know I have, but I know the bible teaches that if we confess our sins, he willl forgive, because we are still beings of the flesh. I dunno, I am just trying to dispell some of the wrong teachings I have had. Becaue I desire to know as much of the truth as I can, so I can help speak it properly and without error or hypocrisy. And I do appreciate you guys taking the time to read and respond to my posts, this has been some stuff that has been bothering for some time now.
For a sin to be considered a mortal sin (a sin unto death, see I Jn 5:16), three factors must be present...
- it must be objectively grave matter (in other words, it must be really bad)
- you must know that it is objectively grave matter (remember Rom 5-7?)
- you must make a deliberate, free will decision to go ahead and commit the sin.
If you did something that was wrong, but you never knew it was wrong (nor could reasonably be expected to know it as a matter of common sense), that would be considered moreso a defect than a sin. God doesn't hold people accountable for what they don't know (or are reasonably expected to know). It would strain the person's relationship with God...
If you just came out and did something from sheer reaction, rather than making a deliberate decision, that would not really be something to which you would be held ultimately accountable. For example, if somebody waved his hand in front of your face and you, out of reflex, decked him, that is a whole lot different than you decking him without some provocation.
Likewise, somebody who is not in possession of his faculties would not be held accountable for that which he did wrong while he was not in possession of those faculties. (For example, you got wasted and started flirting with the barmaid. You would be held accountable for the decision to get wasted, but the flirting might be another issue, since you were not in possession of your faculties <<you were wasted>> when you did so.
Sorry, Im not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I know especially since I left the ministry, I have done willful sinning, I have even developed somewhat of a problem with smoking weed (is that considered a willful sin) with what I have read now, does that mean all hope for me is lost??? But even when I sin knowingly, I ask forgiveness and for grace and mercy. And this brings up another point, I was taught, as we all were, that when Hewbrews talks about there being no more sacrifices for them that have come into a knowledge of the truth, does that mean someone who has been taught the truth, but disregards it, or are we talking about a born believer. Again, I am sorry to keep this going, but I am doing my best to get through this and stomp out the fear I have of this subject. BEcause TWI had answered this question for me, but now I am unsure. A side note here, I had talked to Rev Shroyer before he passed, and he assured me that I was saved, he shared alot of the things that we have went over on this topic, but in the light of Christ died for me, I accepted him as my Savior, and am awaiting his return, and that salvation and enternal life couldn't be taken from me under any circumstance. I was also taught that when hebrews talks about there being no more sacrifices for the willfull sinner, it is because the ultimate sacrifice was already given by Jesus, and that a person could not be saved twice, once they accepted Christ, they were sealed, that Jesus was the bottomline sacrifice, jesus could not be crucified again as a sacrifice, because we already had all the forgiveness from sin from the sacrifice that God made avaible through Jesus's sacrifice. I am trying to do my best in be a better Christian, but I just have an ominious feeling that I may have already damed myself by what I have been doing, becaue my walk with God hasn't been exactly tight if you know what I mean. IF I have burned you guys out already, I understand if you don't want to post, this has been a very obsessive and fearful subject for me.
That is the key (the text I bolded).
You are still coming to God and depending on His mercy. As you seek His mercy, He will provide it abundantly.
I think what you are doing now is called REPENTANCE.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa 38:17 For I am ready to halt, and my sorrow is continually before me.
Psa 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.
2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
Chuck, folks don't like to acknowlege the 10 commandments, but the law reveals sin - "I had not KNOWN SIN, except the law said thou shall not covet...
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
The 10 Commandments tell you what sin is - Keep them to the best of your ability. Don't lie, steal, have sex with married women. Fear God and Him only. Breaking the 10 commandments is what sin is. I hate that traditional christian teaching says we are not under the law, but then they tell you not to sin and live godly - If you don't know what GOD says sin is, how can you do that?
I am trying to do my best in be a better Christian, but I just have an ominious feeling that I may have already damed myself by what I have been doing, becaue my walk with God hasn't been exactly tight if you know what I mean.
Join the club. That queasy feeling in your stomach is real. Embrace the horror. Look deep into the face of who you know you really are, at your worst. It's "the human condition".
Some people will consider their worst acceptable and run with it. That's bad. Others will try to better themselves. That's good. But the struggle you feel is natural and normal and everyone deals with it. Well, some less than others. But your failings and shortcomings, while overwhelming, can be dealt with. They have to be, otherwise it's lights out.
I ponder sometimes how much this world really sucks on a good day. Even when it's good for me, it's ratty for a lot of other people. Too much of that line of thought will really bring me down.
I'm going to digress slightly from the comments thus far, which are very good and worth serious consideration. But - if you feel like something's wrong, maybe something is. You're going to have to deal with it on a level above scripture verses and greek, on a level of your own thoughts and heart.
You're very concerned about yourself and your own conduct and state, beyond the doctrinal what-does-the-bible say about it. I get the feeling that your fear is based on both not knowing how God views you but also on how you view yourself.
I don't know what you've done, but it's probably not anything beyond what's been done by man, woman or child before. I'm not excusing it, just saying that people do things they're not happy or proud of, things they conider wrong and they condemn themselves for it. That's common sense - if I know it hurts to hit myself in the head with a hammer, and it's going to hurt Bobby Moe over there to hit him with it, and I do it, I feel bad. I should.
If I didn't there'd be REAL cause for concern. So having a conscience is a good thing. Difficult at times but good.
If you're looking to square up with God, do it. If you've done wrong and want to deal with it, do it. The bible says "confess your sins". Why? If God is God, He knows, I'm not revealing deep secrets to Him.
Opening up to God in honest prayer will set you free from the bonds you make out of your own sins. Bust those bad boys - Christ DID die to set you and I free, and that freedom is a thought away. Well, maybe a few thoughts. But it's a done deal - you can learn to accept it by investing the time and heart towards God to make your reliance on His grace and mercy your new habit.
Like I said - embrace the darkness, and recognize it for what it is. It's real. Then walk away a free man. Breath the fresh air of a new life and do - one good thing, one thing you know is right. Pray for someone, open a door for somebody and let them go before you. Compliment the next person that waits on you in a store. Read a good book, read the bible, watch the news and be glad you're not running for president. Good is where you find it, and where you make it.
The other stuff, the doctrinal stuff, will come. But if there is grace, mercy and forgiveness - and there is - it's because you need it. The way you feel is why.
Join the club. That queasy feeling in your stomach is real. Embrace the horror. Look deep into the face of who you know you really are, at your worst. It's "the human condition".
Some people will consider their worst acceptable and run with it. That's bad. Others will try to better themselves. That's good. But the struggle you feel is natural and normal and everyone deals with it. Well, some less than others. But your failings and shortcomings, while overwhelming, can be dealt with. They have to be, otherwise it's lights out.
I ponder sometimes how much this world really sucks on a good day. Even when it's good for me, it's ratty for a lot of other people. Too much of that line of thought will really bring me down.
I'm going to digress slightly from the comments thus far, which are very good and worth serious consideration. But - if you feel like something's wrong, maybe something is. You're going to have to deal with it on a level above scripture verses and greek, on a level of your own thoughts and heart.
You're very concerned about yourself and your own conduct and state, beyond the doctrinal what-does-the-bible say about it. I get the feeling that your fear is based on both not knowing how God views you but also on how you view yourself.
I don't know what you've done, but it's probably not anything beyond what's been done by man, woman or child before. I'm not excusing it, just saying that people do things they're not happy or proud of, things they conider wrong and they condemn themselves for it. That's common sense - if I know it hurts to hit myself in the head with a hammer, and it's going to hurt Bobby Moe over there to hit him with it, and I do it, I feel bad. I should.
If I didn't there'd be REAL cause for concern. So having a conscience is a good thing. Difficult at times but good.
If you're looking to square up with God, do it. If you've done wrong and want to deal with it, do it. The bible says "confess your sins". Why? If God is God, He knows, I'm not revealing deep secrets to Him.
Opening up to God in honest prayer will set you free from the bonds you make out of your own sins. Bust those bad boys - Christ DID die to set you and I free, and that freedom is a thought away. Well, maybe a few thoughts. But it's a done deal - you can learn to accept it by investing the time and heart towards God to make your reliance on His grace and mercy your new habit.
Like I said - embrace the darkness, and recognize it for what it is. It's real. Then walk away a free man. Breath the fresh air of a new life and do - one good thing, one thing you know is right. Pray for someone, open a door for somebody and let them go before you. Compliment the next person that waits on you in a store. Read a good book, read the bible, watch the news and be glad you're not running for president. Good is where you find it, and where you make it.
The other stuff, the doctrinal stuff, will come. But if there is grace, mercy and forgiveness - and there is - it's because you need it. The way you feel is why.
You know you NEVER see a BLACK SHEEP SITTING WITH JESUS and i think that it is what JESUS DID THE MOST...THAT S HOW I FEEL ANYWAY AND he loves YOU!!!!! I myself am a black sheep of my family and i like it that way.
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waysider
Hi, Chuck!
First, allow me to extend my welcome to the GSC.
Glad you are here.
The questions you are asking are, indeed, excellent ones.
Many here have pondered and discussed these questions in great detail.
For starters, allow me to first say that, in my opinion, TWI(The Way International) was way off-base on this seed of Satan thinking.
Someone told a good friend of mine that he was born of the wrong seed and he killed himself.
He was an out-patient at a psychiatric hospital and was in a fragile state of mind at the time.
Of course, then they said he killed himself because he had a spirit of suicide.
He was just a mixed up kid who needed some guidance and love but instead lost his life.
Where's the love of God in that?
I don't think this seed of the Devil thing is even Biblical other than the reference cited in the Gospels.
I could be wrong about that part. I'm definitely not a Biblical scholar.
If the Bible is true, then it's God's desire for us to love our fellow man, treat him with respect and fairness and do what we can to help those in need. If we can squeeze all of that into one short lifetime, I think we're doing pretty darn good!!
Peace
waysider
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year2027
God first
Beloved ChuckLuck74
God loves you my dear friend
lets look at Mark 3:28-29
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
nothing here saids if you do this sin you will not be saved but you are danger of eternal damnation
otherwise your life style can be changed or your actions
if all sins can be forgiven and one can not there are two kinds of sins
fleshly sins are all foegiveable but spiritual sins are not
Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
looks like blasphemy is a spoken statement against God but I think its more of a life style of living a life style against God
but I am seeing I only understand in part on this part of God's word
but I do know if your asking you have nothing to worry about
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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ChuckLuck74
So then I am confused, what is considered a spiritual sin as oppsed to a fleshly sin? And do you mean by a lifestyle against God like some one who holds genuine hate toward God, and manifest that hate by what he says and how he lives? I can remember one time a few years back I was going through a really dark depression, and I remmber saying to my wife that I wish God would just kill me and get it over with, I was truly angry. Is that an unforgiveable spiritual sin?????
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waysider
Chuck
Stop beating yourself up, brother.
In my opinion(and that's all it is) we have two concepts in play here.
1. We were taught in PLAF(misspelling intentional) that to even question "the integrity of The Word"( whatever the heck that actually means) is the first step in our downward spiral.
That is from session #7.
It's a control mechanism, plain and simple.
There is no Biblical basis for that concept.
VPW said "Thus it is so" and we believed him.
Shame on us. me.
God made us.
He expects us to question things, doubt things, try to prove things, etc., etc.
That is part of the way He made us.
2. The concept of a sin that is so heinous that commission of it would doom us for eternity.
(another control mechanism.)
Where is this actually found in the Bible?
Again, I'm not qualified as a scholar, by any stretch of the word, but I have never been able to find this in my attempts to locate it. In fact,there is never any mention made of people going to "hell" in the Bible.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and make some harsh statements.
TWI was a cult and a scam.
VPW was a calculating con-man.
You got fooled. I got fooled. We all got fooled.
Yes, I know it hurts to come to that realization.
And yet, it's comforting to realize it wasn't your fault for acting out of benevolence.
God does not blame you for the misdeeds of the TWI hierarchy.
If it is important enough for you to even ponder these questions, it speaks volumes about the concern you have to do the right (or Godly, if you prefer) thing.
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brideofjc
It is interesting to note that in John 8:37ff "If the Son makes you free....(free from being in bondage to sins) ye shall be free indeed" Because whoever commits sin is the servant of it. But then Jesus tell them that He knows that they are Abraham's direct lineage, however, because they were thinking murderous thoughts in their hearts, just as Cain thought of murder in his heart at first as well. Jesus speaks of the devil as being a murderer from the very beginning. I think this very beginning was with Adam and Eve and not Cain, which is why Cain inherited the iniquity of murder from his parents. It is also interesting to read in v38... "I speak that which I have seen with MY father..." You DO that which ye have sen with your Father" Why did they want to kill Him? Because He had told them the truth and they believed Him not. So therefore, they were of their father the devil because he
was a murdered from the beginning and a LIAR and couldn't hear the Words of God." This particular verse doesn't directly speak of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which in Greek to blaspheme means: "to defame, revile, slander; to speak of God or divine things in terms of impious irreverence, to blaspheme."
However, in Matt 12 and Luke 12, it does speak directly about blaspheming the HS. The text is clear that if anyone speaks against Jesus, it will be forgiven
if the person asks for it later. However, to speak against the HS and I would guess that it would be about His workings, His leadings etc. Look at the following verse....varry interesting....the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what you ought to say. It does make you wonder if you are taught by the HS to speak a certain thing and you refuse or you directly contradict it, if that isn't what it really is. Because if you directly contradict...are you not in essence calling the HS a liar? Even more interesting is the record in Matt 12 that Jesus was telling them that he was casting out demons by the SPIRIT OF GOD, i.e. HS. Could it also have an element of calling the workings of the HS the works of the devil? Or perhaps trying to cast demons out with some other spirit, fooling the onlookers etc.
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year2027
God first
Beloved ChuckLuck74
God loves you my dear friend
like waysider said "Stop beating yourself up, brother"
give it time your here because God is working with you to help you
this place has help me and it will help you
my life was were your life is some what as most others were
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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RachelYsrael
The church I study with now believes there are 2 ways to blaspeme the Holy Spirit. The first is to say something about God that is not true - Take His Name In Vain. Like saying God loves everybody. The God in the Bible is very specific about who He loves, and it does not include everybody all the time. (I know - God so loved the world. But then the person makes a decision to believe or not) So, to lie on Him is blasphemy.
The 2nd way is to commit a sin that you can't get forgiveness for. The Law calls it to sin wilfully...As does the Testimony. If you sin on purpose, there is nothing left but a certain firey judgment. That also is blasphemy. The key to forgiveness is repentence, but if someone TRULY sins ON PURPOSE (Hope I never find out anything about it personally) then they cannot repent, because it was willful in the first place.
The Psalms are full of what is going to happen to these people in the (Near) future. Hope this adds a different spin on it - I like to give folks something totally innovative and yet so simple to consider.
RachelYsrael
(I have been deathly ill with flu then pnuemonia)
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ChuckLuck74
But isn't a sin a willful one, I mean is there a sin that is considered unwillful?? I know there are believers out there who have willfully sinned, I know I have, but I know the bible teaches that if we confess our sins, he willl forgive, because we are still beings of the flesh. I dunno, I am just trying to dispell some of the wrong teachings I have had. Becaue I desire to know as much of the truth as I can, so I can help speak it properly and without error or hypocrisy. And I do appreciate you guys taking the time to read and respond to my posts, this has been some stuff that has been bothering for some time now.
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markomalley
Welcome to GSC. And to the Doctrinal Basement.
You will find a host of different beliefs here.
The Church identifies six sins against the Holy Spirit:
Presumption (of forgiveness)
Despair (belief that your sin is too great to forgive)
Resisting the known truth
Envy of another’s spiritual good
Obstinacy in sin
Final impenitence (i.e., refusing to repent of sins until you die)
St. Thomas Aquinas has the following to say in his Summa Theologica (II.II)
Pope +John Paul II had the following to say about it (in the Encyclical Dominum et Vivificantem)
(In case you haven't figured this one out, I am the token Catholic around here)
If we take a look at the actual text of St. Matthew, we see the following:
12:31 διὰ τοῦτο λέγω ὑμῖν πᾶσα ἁμαρτία καὶ βλασφημία ἀφεθήσεται τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἡ δὲ τοῦ πνεύματος βλασφημία οὐκ ἀφεθήσεται
12:32 καὶ ὃς ἐὰν εἴπῃ λόγον κατὰ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἀφεθήσεται αὐτῷ ὃς δ' ἂν εἴπῃ κατὰ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ ἁγίου οὐκ ἀφεθήσεται αὐτῷ οὔτε ἐν τούτῳ τῷ αἰῶνι οὔτε ἐν τῷ μέλλοντι
I bring the Greek up here because of an interesting little tidbit in v. 32. When speaking about man, it says: εἴπῃ λόγον (eipon logos), but when speaking about the Holy Spirit, only the word εἴπῃ (eipon). The word eipon is the verb and refers to utterance without regard to the content uttered (thus the expression εἴπῃ λόγον eipon logos -- utter a word). It can also be considered a thought, as well (see Thayer's).
If you die prior to repenting of εἴπῃ κατὰ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ ἁγίου, then how can you be forgiven (consider I John)?
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T-Bone
Every time I read about the suicide of Waysider's friend over the unforgivable sin I get sick to my stomach. TWI's screwed up doctrines can have such a horrific impact! May God have mercy on everyone who has spread such crap [myself included during my TWI daze].
Chuck, I think "willful" is a critical point in this issue. In the Matthew account, the unforgivable sin is mentioned right after a notable miracle was done. It was something so undeniably wrought by the Spirit of God [as noted by the crowds reaction in verse 23 and reaffirmed by Jesus' logic in verses 25-27].
Matthew 12:22-32 KJV
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
~~
The MacArthur Study Bible notes of this passage:
"…The sin He was confronting was the Pharisees' deliberate rejection of that which they knew to be of God [cf. John 11:48; acts 4:16]. They could not deny the reality of what the Holy Spirit had done through Him, so they attributed to Satan a work that they knew was of God [v.24; Mark 3;22].
Someone never exposed to Christ's divine power and presence might reject Him in ignorance and be forgiven – assuming the unbelief gives way to genuine repentance. Even a Pharisee such as Saul of Tarsus, could be forgiven for speaking against Jesus or persecuting His followers – because his unbelief stemmed from ignorance . But those who know His claims are true and reject Him anyway sin "against the Holy Spirit" – because it is the Holy Spirit who testifies of Christ and makes His truth known to us [John 15:26; 16:14, 15]. No forgiveness was possible for these Pharisees who witnessed His miracles firsthand, knew the truth of His claims, and still blasphemed the Holy Spirit – because they had already rejected the fullest possible revelation…"
End of excerpts
While in TWI I guess I had some fuzzy idea of the unforgivable sin being the worst sin one could commit – far above murder and adultery. But I think the "unforgivable" term may simply indicate the firm obstinacy of the sinner. For we know that God forgives anyone who is contrite.
If someone came to me now, and said I think I've committed the unforgivable sin. I think our discussion would involve the above passage and then perhaps try to ferret out what - if any - undeniable acts of the Holy Spirit this person witnessed and go from there...The fact that this person is concerned that they may have committed the unforgivable sin may be proof enough that they didn't since in Matthew and other related passages it seems the person who commits this sin is oblivious to the act.
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RachelYsrael
Leviticus 4
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
3If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
Hebrews -
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
There are 2 types of sin - Sin with right intentions -In ignorance, and sin on prpos because you feel like it.
Please note that the animal sacrifice is offered for a sin. Now that Jesus died, we do not offer animals anymore, but we do still sin., right? Jesus took the place of the animal.
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anotherDan
Good questions, Chuck, and some good answers so far. I enjoyed reading them, all. The part I "bolded," above is of interest to me. I can't say I have the answer, but I'm seeking to know, as you are. I think you've touched on the root of the problem. What theologians call soteriology (a theory of salvation) underlies the discussion about "the unforgivable sin." Dr.W's soteriology was Ro.10:9,10. Others would add baptism or other things (like honest-to-goodness REPENTANCE! ya think?) Is "once saved always saved"? And this eternal kind of life, what is it? What of judgment, which any honest reading of Paul cannot deny that we will be judged for our deeds? And how does that work with the king's judgment in Matthew 25?
In my own journey, I've concluded to leave the judging to the Lord. I don't judge myself "in" and others "in" or "out." I think Paul did the same thing. This does not preclude some certainties in the midst of uncertainty. One certainty I have is that the Lord loved me and gave himself for me. I know that I am called to do good, and not evil. Good is defined by love. I know that my "good works" can never make me worthy of salvation from sin and the consequences of sin. There is no balance sheet that I can tip by my efforts to make me worthy. Salvation is by grace through faith. And salvation comes in the name of God's son, Jesus Christ. I have a longer list of certainties, but those come to mind in the framework of this discussion.
I would like for you to be able to sleep at night, and I would like to settle certain nagging questions that remain in my own heart, but sometimes I think we intrude too far into what is God's realm alone. Yes, He's promised us eternal life, and yes, there are rewards for those good things done "in our bodies." My carnal mind was attracted to the concept of His word working "with a mathematical exactness and a scientific precision," and it appealed to me to have all these things figured out. However, what that did for me was that it put me in the frame of mind that I had God's "promises" all figured out, and could thereby make certain demands upon God based on my understanding of those "promises." After all, if I had "done my part" in regard to a certain promise, God was obligated to do His. I could make demand (boldly, of course) just like I would go to cash a check at the bank.
God has taught me otherwise. In my self-satisfied "workmanship of the word," I had lost my awe of God! And, of course, it was not my workmanship after all, it was that of another. Having read more widely in the nearly 20 years since I left the Way Ministry, I have seen how others have approached some of these issues (and, of course, I also now have the benefit of reading the wise words of people like Waysider, George Aar, and TBone!).
My own view is that life, this life right here, is a gift--every day of it, every moment of it. We are tested by success and we are tested by failure. We have the opportunity, again and again, to respond well or poorly. Throughout all of it, we are loved by God, and He will assist us in doing well. He will oppose us and chasten us when we do ill. To God, the present and the future are one with the past. His memory is as perfect as His understanding and His foreknowledge. He knows what was, what is, and what is to come. Any future I may have would also be a gift.
Having this outlook sort of precludes worrying about my eternal destiny. Do I look forward to the bema? Yes, I do, and I dread it as well. For there shall every man have his proper praise of God.
That record in Matthew 25 indicates that BOTH "the righteous" and those who go into irrevocable punishment will be surprised by the Lord's judgments. In particular, and of extreme interest to me, is the setting of this prophesy: the rest of the Book of Matthew, which is replete with account after account of Jesus' love of sinners, and continual confrontation of religious idiots, who had God all figured out. Not all who call him "lord, lord" have a cushy future assured!
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ChuckLuck74
Sorry, Im not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I know especially since I left the ministry, I have done willful sinning, I have even developed somewhat of a problem with smoking weed (is that considered a willful sin) with what I have read now, does that mean all hope for me is lost??? But even when I sin knowingly, I ask forgiveness and for grace and mercy. And this brings up another point, I was taught, as we all were, that when Hewbrews talks about there being no more sacrifices for them that have come into a knowledge of the truth, does that mean someone who has been taught the truth, but disregards it, or are we talking about a born believer. Again, I am sorry to keep this going, but I am doing my best to get through this and stomp out the fear I have of this subject. BEcause TWI had answered this question for me, but now I am unsure. A side note here, I had talked to Rev Shroyer before he passed, and he assured me that I was saved, he shared alot of the things that we have went over on this topic, but in the light of Christ died for me, I accepted him as my Savior, and am awaiting his return, and that salvation and enternal life couldn't be taken from me under any circumstance. I was also taught that when hebrews talks about there being no more sacrifices for the willfull sinner, it is because the ultimate sacrifice was already given by Jesus, and that a person could not be saved twice, once they accepted Christ, they were sealed, that Jesus was the bottomline sacrifice, jesus could not be crucified again as a sacrifice, because we already had all the forgiveness from sin from the sacrifice that God made avaible through Jesus's sacrifice. I am trying to do my best in be a better Christian, but I just have an ominious feeling that I may have already damed myself by what I have been doing, becaue my walk with God hasn't been exactly tight if you know what I mean. IF I have burned you guys out already, I understand if you don't want to post, this has been a very obsessive and fearful subject for me.
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T-Bone
Chuck, I think when a person expresses such dissatisfaction with their own shortcomings – it’s a healthy sign – a child of God becoming more aware of their fallen nature and longing for the new world. When you study Paul’s writings it seems like the more he matured in the Christian life, the more he became aware of how great a sinner he was…Just a thought…
It’s just my opinion – but I even think it’s kinda normal for folks to go wild after leaving the oppressive legalism of TWI.
I’m not one to preach how another should walk. I ain’t perfect…trying to love God and neighbor is a full time project, dontcha know…When it comes to dealing with sin – boy, I could write a few books on the subject – being an expert and all on how to commit it, that is. Yup, know what sin is available, how to commit it, what to do after you’ve committed it.
Seriously, though – TWI was weak on dealing with sin. They minimized it to broken fellowship and sabotaged the moral compass of followers by their insidious doctrines…After I left TWI, I’ve experienced a twofold force every time I fall – it’s been my Lord helping me back up and me feeling drawn to my Lord and wanting to get back up. You know, the Lord I believe, help my unbelief thing.
Anyway, say on brother. You’re not burning me out. This here’s a great place! Hang out relax – be yourself. Your honesty and humility is a beautiful thing!
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year2027
God first
Beloved ChuckLuck74
God loves you my dear friend
and we love you
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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waysider
Hiya, Chuck!!!
This bunch NEVER gets tired of yakkin' about stuff like this!
My Mom, who is a wonderful woman of God, as well as an all around great lady, used to have a twig fellowship back in the day.
She never knew a bunch of Greek words or theological intricacies.
She knew a WHOLE BUNCH about God's love, though.
Her motto, if you will, was, and still is, that God loves you for who you are right now, warts and all.
Not for what you used to be, not for what you could be. but just the way you are at this moment.
Is there such a thing as "the seed of the Devil", from which there is no path of escape/
I don't personally believe so.
I just haven't seen enough Biblical documentation to verify this.
Now, about the "herbal" indulgence.
I know The Way taught that any kind of "pharmacia" was an invitation to devil spirit possession.
Again, I no longer subscribe to that line of thinking.
Don't get me wrong.
I don't endorse such activity.
For one thing, it is definitely not good for your pulmonary functions.
And, as we're all getting older, we need to think about stuff like that.
Secondly(and this is a biggie) it can get you into all kinds of legal hot water that can have a very adverse effect on your lifestyle.
But is it some kind of devilish, amoral, horrific activity that will lead to your ultimate damnation?
I don't think so.
But that's just me and my 2 cents.
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markomalley
For a sin to be considered a mortal sin (a sin unto death, see I Jn 5:16), three factors must be present...
- it must be objectively grave matter (in other words, it must be really bad)
- you must know that it is objectively grave matter (remember Rom 5-7?)
- you must make a deliberate, free will decision to go ahead and commit the sin.
If you did something that was wrong, but you never knew it was wrong (nor could reasonably be expected to know it as a matter of common sense), that would be considered moreso a defect than a sin. God doesn't hold people accountable for what they don't know (or are reasonably expected to know). It would strain the person's relationship with God...
If you just came out and did something from sheer reaction, rather than making a deliberate decision, that would not really be something to which you would be held ultimately accountable. For example, if somebody waved his hand in front of your face and you, out of reflex, decked him, that is a whole lot different than you decking him without some provocation.
Likewise, somebody who is not in possession of his faculties would not be held accountable for that which he did wrong while he was not in possession of those faculties. (For example, you got wasted and started flirting with the barmaid. You would be held accountable for the decision to get wasted, but the flirting might be another issue, since you were not in possession of your faculties <<you were wasted>> when you did so.
That is the key (the text I bolded).
You are still coming to God and depending on His mercy. As you seek His mercy, He will provide it abundantly.
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RachelYsrael
Hi Chuck,
I think what you are doing now is called REPENTANCE.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa 38:17 For I am ready to halt, and my sorrow is continually before me.
Psa 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.
2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
Chuck, folks don't like to acknowlege the 10 commandments, but the law reveals sin - "I had not KNOWN SIN, except the law said thou shall not covet...
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
The 10 Commandments tell you what sin is - Keep them to the best of your ability. Don't lie, steal, have sex with married women. Fear God and Him only. Breaking the 10 commandments is what sin is. I hate that traditional christian teaching says we are not under the law, but then they tell you not to sin and live godly - If you don't know what GOD says sin is, how can you do that?
RachelYsrael
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socks
Join the club. That queasy feeling in your stomach is real. Embrace the horror. Look deep into the face of who you know you really are, at your worst. It's "the human condition".
Some people will consider their worst acceptable and run with it. That's bad. Others will try to better themselves. That's good. But the struggle you feel is natural and normal and everyone deals with it. Well, some less than others. But your failings and shortcomings, while overwhelming, can be dealt with. They have to be, otherwise it's lights out.
I ponder sometimes how much this world really sucks on a good day. Even when it's good for me, it's ratty for a lot of other people. Too much of that line of thought will really bring me down.
I'm going to digress slightly from the comments thus far, which are very good and worth serious consideration. But - if you feel like something's wrong, maybe something is. You're going to have to deal with it on a level above scripture verses and greek, on a level of your own thoughts and heart.
You're very concerned about yourself and your own conduct and state, beyond the doctrinal what-does-the-bible say about it. I get the feeling that your fear is based on both not knowing how God views you but also on how you view yourself.
I don't know what you've done, but it's probably not anything beyond what's been done by man, woman or child before. I'm not excusing it, just saying that people do things they're not happy or proud of, things they conider wrong and they condemn themselves for it. That's common sense - if I know it hurts to hit myself in the head with a hammer, and it's going to hurt Bobby Moe over there to hit him with it, and I do it, I feel bad. I should.
If I didn't there'd be REAL cause for concern. So having a conscience is a good thing. Difficult at times but good.
If you're looking to square up with God, do it. If you've done wrong and want to deal with it, do it. The bible says "confess your sins". Why? If God is God, He knows, I'm not revealing deep secrets to Him.
Opening up to God in honest prayer will set you free from the bonds you make out of your own sins. Bust those bad boys - Christ DID die to set you and I free, and that freedom is a thought away. Well, maybe a few thoughts. But it's a done deal - you can learn to accept it by investing the time and heart towards God to make your reliance on His grace and mercy your new habit.
Like I said - embrace the darkness, and recognize it for what it is. It's real. Then walk away a free man. Breath the fresh air of a new life and do - one good thing, one thing you know is right. Pray for someone, open a door for somebody and let them go before you. Compliment the next person that waits on you in a store. Read a good book, read the bible, watch the news and be glad you're not running for president. Good is where you find it, and where you make it.
The other stuff, the doctrinal stuff, will come. But if there is grace, mercy and forgiveness - and there is - it's because you need it. The way you feel is why.
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cheranne
You know you NEVER see a BLACK SHEEP SITTING WITH JESUS and i think that it is what JESUS DID THE MOST...THAT S HOW I FEEL ANYWAY AND he loves YOU!!!!! I myself am a black sheep of my family and i like it that way.
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