I left the way in 1999 and since then I have often questioned the authenticity of what I was taught about speaking in toungues, is it real, is it a real gift of God and proves my salvation? I still speak in tognues from time to time but how do I know it is real? And what about the other manifestations? Are they what we were taught them to be. I have thought on these things and wrestled with them so heavily that I know have to be on antidepressents because I am unsure if I am even saved. I believe there has to be a God, but since I left the ministry, I feel like I have no connection with Him, was this all a sham. anyone please help me here, I am at my wit's end.
just know without LOVE we are nothing,just a bunch of wind chimes in a parade,if you were a deaf mute and couldn't hear or speak you would still be a child of GOD. I know how you feel but it is a lie YOU ARE A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST,EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT A CHURCH GOING,BIBLE THUMPING PERSON AND DO NOT EVER EVER FORGET THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR YOU! YOU FEEL FREE TO TALK TO ME IF YOU WANT.
I left the way in 1999 and since then I have often questioned the authenticity of what I was taught about speaking in toungues, is it real, is it a real gift of God and proves my salvation? I still speak in tognues from time to time but how do I know it is real? And what about the other manifestations? Are they what we were taught them to be. I have thought on these things and wrestled with them so heavily that I know have to be on antidepressents because I am unsure if I am even saved. I believe there has to be a God, but since I left the ministry, I feel like I have no connection with Him, was this all a sham. anyone please help me here, I am at my wit's end.
You have some serious questions here my friend. There are a ton of things written about these very subjects here on this site. But you obviously want answers now or you wouldnt have started a thread. So my opinion is speaking in tongues is real. Some have admitted to making it up all those years ago but that does not negate the authenticity of it. VP taught us that the manifestations were given to every man as he the man willed. That is not true it was as God willed. Hence not everyone gets all of them, in fact there is not much reason for everyone to manifest all 9 all the time. That was a pile of you know what. When one is recieving word of wisdom why would one need to interpret tongues? It never made any sense the way twi taught.
We were all of us scammed by a master scammer. But the Bible is not a scam nor is God. Again this is my opinion, others do not share it.
Are you saved? I think that this should be likened to the analogy that if a man asks if he is crazy then he is not. If you are earnestly asking and desire a relationship with God then you probably are born again. But this is a personal journey that you must take on your own.
If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to ask. There is also a great deal of information floating around this site that may help with some of your questions and confusion. Try the search feature at the top right of your page or the front page of the site. Both are wonderfully helpful. I hope you find your answers.
how about.. go a whole YEAR without speaking in tongues. Don't do it for ANY reason.. intercession, prayer.. etc.. and see if you are any less "spiritual" (or perhaps more) at the end of the year than you were before..
just a thought.
:)
Perhaps there is a legitimate "biblical" usage for it.. but I think the way we used it, it just got in God's way..
Tongues being a sign or proof of salvation is not the teaching of the Bible. You have to squeeze it to make it so. Salvation itself profoundly misunderstood in the church, and not just by TWI. I hope it's OK if instead of providing "my" answers, I suggest yet another question?
Are you loved? John 3:16 is the answer.
Talk about "the simplicity of the Word" being lost! And the simplicity of Christ.
Trust in God. Take a look at the cross; that's where you'll begin to understand God's love for you. When you get a good glimpse, you'll not need the meds any more.
When i left i felt closer to God, probably because i forgot what twi taught about the certain people loving me because they wouldnt speak to me.
Are you sure your not confusing how people felt about you and you felt about people in twi, with how god feels about you and how you feel about God?
TWI taught a show it was always a show a class a manifestation a teaching always a show something people could do.. god doesnt need a show.. talk to him pray with your understanding to a God who you want to know, and relaxe jesus christ knows your feelings of betrayal and will comfort you. you do not need a show .
Howdy Chuck and welcome to Grease Spot…Some good words here by everyone. I left in 86 and also began questioning everything I was taught. There's a lot of great stuff on this website so I encourage you to search the threads – you'll find a variety of viewpoints on everything. Which is great – shows ya folks are thinking. For what it's worth I've quoted a post of mine below – it's just my opinion. When it comes right down to it – YOU are the only one who can settle the matter for your own piece of mind.
I haven't figured everything out on the issue of TWI's version of speaking in tongues – but there has been an evolution of how I address the subject. Initially, when I left TWI most of my criteria were anecdotally based – trying to come to some conclusions thinking about my own experiences and those of others I knew in TWI. As time went on, I felt I needed to set some intellectual standards – and thus review the Bible, TWI's doctrine, and my own thinking a little more critically.
In my opinion, TWI's doctrine on speaking in tongues has eclipsed the importance of prayer in our understanding. I feel TWI's version of speaking in tongues is mind numbing [does not engage the intellect], and usually self-centered [directed towards a personal agenda]. It gives a false sense of securing the promises of God, insulates the person from the transforming effect of communion with God [since their mind is not involved in the process], and can lead to self-deception, pride, and hypocrisy. I have listed below a number of points as to why I think TWI's teaching on speaking in tongues is in error.
Some things to consider about Speaking in Tongues, TWI's version of it and Prayer in our Understanding
1. The significant purpose of Speaking in Tongues.I noted this in my previous post [# 71]. In The MacArthur Study Bible on I Corinthians 14, John MacArthur suggests tongues ceased after serving a threefold purpose: a sign to unbelieving Jews , a significant blessing of God building a new nation of Jews and Gentiles [Romans 11:11,12,25-27; Galatians 3:28], and authenticating those who preached the gospel [iI Corinthians 12:12].
2. Decline of Speaking in Tongues after the book of Acts period.The Encyclopedia Britannica notes under Speaking in Tongues "The greatest emphasis upon the gift in the early church was made by followers of the 2nd century prophet Montanus. His excommunication about 177 and the later decline of the sect probably contributed to a climate of opinion unfavorable to speaking in tongues, and the practice declined. During later church history, glossolalia occurred in various groups. In modern times, it occurred during various Protestant revivals in the United States, in the early 20th century." In The MacArthur New Testament Commentary: I Corinthians, John MacArthur states on page 361, "…the gift of tongues has evidently ceased because, since the apostolic age, it has reappeared only spasmodically and questionably throughout nineteen centuries of church history. The gift of tongues is nowhere alluded to or found in any writings of the church Fathers. Clement of Rome wrote a letter to the Corinthian church in the year 95, only about four decades after Paul wrote I Corinthians. In discussing problems in the church, Clement made no mention of tongues. Apparently, both the use and misuse of that gift had ceased. Justin Martyr, the great church Father of the second century, visited many of the churches of his day, yet in his voluminous writings he mentions nothing of tongues. It is not mentioned even among his several lists of spiritual gifts."
3. Different Greek words for "set aside" and "cease". FromThe NET Bible I Corinthians 13: 8-11, "Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways." In the Greek text set aside is katargeo and cease is pauomai.
According to The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised 1978 Edition by Harold Moulton, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament Abridged in One Volume by Geoffrey Bromiley, The Word Study Concordance by George Wigram and Ralph Winter and A Basic Grammar of the New Testament by George Aristotle Hadjiantoniou: Katargeo [translated set aside] is passive – meaning something or someone is setting it aside. In the New Testament, this word can mean: to condemn to inactivity, to destroy, to take out of the sphere of activity, to make inoperative. In other words in saying, "prophecies, they will be set aside [katargeo]" either an event or a person is rendering prophecies inoperative. A few other katargeo occurrences: Romans 3:3 "make the faith of God without effect", I Corinthians 1:28 "to bring to naught things that are", I Corinthians 6:13 "God shall destroy both it and them", II Corinthians 3:7 "which glory was to be done away", II Timothy 1:10 "Christ, who hath abolished death."
Pauomai [translated cease] to stop, to come to an end. This word differs from katargeo in that it is in the middle voice – the subject exercises the activity indicated by the verb with special reference to itself. A few other occurrences of pauomai: Luke 11:1 "when he ceased, one of his disciples said", Acts 5:42 "they ceased not to teach and preach", I Peter 3:10 "let him refrain his tongue from evil." In other words, in saying "tongues they will cease [pauomai]" it implies a built-in stopping point.
From the above differences in the Greek words used for set aside and cease – it appears to me there's a difference in how tongues will stop and how prophesy and knowledge will stop. Perhaps it may mean God had a limited "lifespan" built into tongues and after serving their purpose [suggested in point 1] they stopped. Whereas, prophecy and knowledge will someday be rendered inoperative by some event or person – and until such time remain in effect.
4. Spiritual abilities are distributed according to God's discretion. As I mentioned in a previous post [#47] VPW taught that every believer has the ability to operate all nine manifestations suggesting I Corinthians 12:11 "dividing to every man severally as He will" meant as the man wills according to his believing. I disagree, in my opinion the entire chapter emphasizes it is God's prerogative to whom the spiritual abilities are given and that every believer is not given all nine. I think the chapter centers around God's influence - in I Corinthians 12: v.4 "…there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit," v.5 "…varieties of ministries, and the same Lord," v.6 "varieties of effects, but the same God," v.11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills" v.13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…all made to drink of one Spirit" v.18 But now God has placed the members…just as He desired" v.24 "…God has so composed the body" v.28 "And God has appointed in the church, first apostles…" It makes me wonder – if God is the one who works all these things – then why do we need a man or a class to teach us about them? Where do you see in I Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 instructions on how to operate the manifestations – I mean how to actually do them? You don't! These chapters reveal how much the Corinthians wigged-out on their charismata! They needed some instruction on God being in charge, doing everything out of love and in a gracious and orderly fashion.
5. The Bible emphasizes we engage our intellect in prayer.A study of prayer in the Bible will often touch upon attitudes and thoughts we're to adopt and to avoid. Matthew 6:5 "…when you pray do not be like the hypocrite." Mark 11:25 "…when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him…" Matthew 6:7 "…when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words." For the Bible to encourage us to cultivate humility, persistence, trust, forgiveness, sincerity, etc. in prayer necessitates we engage our minds in the process. I think there was a prevalent idea while I was in TWI that you could be out of fellowship, sinning like a trooper – but you could still speak in tongues which is perfect prayer so everything will work out alright anyway. I think true prayer comes from the heart – from way down deep inside our being – what we think about, what we want – a good reason for us to guard our hearts as Proverbs 4:23 says. To "tremble with fear and do not sin! Do some soul-searching as you lie in bed, and repent of your ways!" as Psalms 4:4 The NET Bible puts it.
I think when Scripture encourages us to pray in the Spirit it means we're to make a conscious effort to be in harmony with the Holy Spirit – reflecting on our motivation, thoughts, and behavior as we beseech our Heavenly Father. Psalms 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord; And He will give you the desires of your heart." Could be understood two ways: God answers our prayers [the desires of our heart] and He may put desires in our heart. I equate delighting in the Lord as being in step with the Spirit. Ephesians 6:18 "With all prayer and petition [deesis] pray at all times in the Spirit…" The Greek word deesis is supplication, a request, or prayer for specific benefits. That implies the content of my prayers [specific requests] are directed by my mind. It is NOT pressing the S.I.T. button to launch a magical encrypted language that is equivalent to the Star Ship Enterprise's Photon Torpedoes…Didn't VPW in the PFAL class say he hardly ever prayed in his understanding? He believed in the superiority of speaking in tongues. Even in the Corps, I recall how often my mind drifted into daydreaming, worrying or thinking about anything EXCEPT what I was speaking in tongues for - doing the goofy 4 fifteens [yeah, that really kept TWI on the straight and narrow path!].
...Sometimes I think of prayer in my understanding as perhaps a verbal affirmation or agreement with God - that as I speak the words that I know I should say - I am aware of their reproof of some hidden hypocrisy they have flushed out of my heart - my conscious will not shut up! There have been times as I'm praying for something - when all of a sudden it's like a boxer nails me with a round-house punch while my guard is down; I become aware of how unloving I was toward my wife tonight, or lied about something at work. And as I recover from this blow to my ego - I feel a resolve to right that wrong and my prayer switches gears from being a prayer for whatever - to asking the Father for forgiveness, strength and wisdom to draft a plan of action. And how much of all that going on in our hearts is from the Spirit? The Holy Spirit oversees the Word of God. Much of our prayer phrasing comes from the Bible - I imagine the Spirit can make a particular word, phrase or thought sizzle with energy - or heal. Alright, I'm starting to sound like the sappy Eternity commercials "I don't know where I end and the Spirit begins." Better move on to point 6.
6. The essence of prayer is communion and partnership with God.The thrust ofour Lord's teaching on prayer in Matthew 6:8-13 focuses our attention on the person of our Heavenly Father, His purpose and will, His sufficiency for us, His forgiveness, His guidance, His deliverance, His kingdom, power and glory. Point 5is the process of prayer – point 6 is the object of our prayer. The object of our prayer should be God, His purpose, His will, His glory – not the thing we're praying for, not our own agenda. I think of Paul praying to God three times about his thorn in the flesh – the solution wasn't in Paul's prayers – but in God's strength! If prayer is to be such an integral part of our lives maybe it means any situation in life can be an opportunity to commune with our Heavenly Father, becoming an impromptu prayer/fellowship with Him. When I think of Psalms I think of the spiritually vibrant rapport the writers seem to possess with God – God Almighty – Creator of the Universe! Amid their confessions of doubt, frustration, sin, failures, disappointments – there's still some sort of indescribable tether, some connection, some partnership between the Creator and the creature. Yes, I believe we are fallen creatures - and that's why I'm amazed that God still wants us to approach Him – to hang out with Him – to confide in Him – to trust Him - and of all things toLOVE Him - He wantsMY love!
7. TWI's pride with the manifestations overshadowed Christian love.I think I Corinthians 13, the chapter on love, sets the top priority for every Christian – a priority ignored by TWI. This is just my opinion – but try reading some of the My Story or By the Way threads. Note the frequent occurrence of leadership coming down on a believer because God showed them how screwed up they were and needed the beating of the week. When I was in Corps training – I got to see first hand the utter conceit of the top leadership of TWI – as they would speak with such hatred and disdain about any Christian group outside TWI, who didn't speak in tongues or operate the other manifestations according to their standards. Without the governing influence of love – our selfish egos become maniacal bulldozers plowing aside anyone who gets caught in the cross-hairs of our "in-depth spiritual perception and awareness." Jesus summed up the whole point of God's moral law – LOVE for God and your neighbor. I don't recall in the gospels Jesus conducting a bunch of "practice sessions" on the revelation or power manifestations with His disciples; or teaching the "Advanced Class" on them. He sure did teach a lot about love – oh uh – verbally too, besides His example!
I left the way in 1999 and since then I have often questioned the authenticity of what I was taught about speaking in toungues,
you did right to question the ministry understanding about speaking in tongues it was more like baby talk a beginning for you into the big unknown
is it real, yes but so is faith the Way magnified tongues above the other eight
is it a real gift of God and proves my salvation? it does not prove salvation but that Christ has enter your life a good beginning
I still speak in tognues from time to time but how do I know it is real? its real but you do not have to believe me asked God with love and he will tell you its real
And what about the other manifestations? I believe they work hand and hand with each other like tongues are the language of the spirit God speaks to us through while tongues come with wisdom and knowldge by faith because we desire only good in our language with heals our weak flesh a miracle in itself
Are they what we were taught them to be. no there a lot more
I have thought on these things and wrestled with them so heavily that I know have to be on antidepressents because I am unsure if I am even saved.
if saved is a ongoing movement look at Rom 10:9-10 believing is a life time act a life style more than the way they taught
I believe there has to be a God, yes there is a God and a Christ
but since I left the ministry, I feel like I have no connection with Him,
we all feel lost from time to time and that why we need each other
was this all a sham. anyone please help me here, I am at my wit's end.
I left the way in 1999 and since then I have often questioned the authenticity of what I was taught about speaking in toungues, is it real, is it a real gift of God and proves my salvation?
SIT is not the gift, but a manifestation of that gift of holy spirit. But remember that if you don't manifest the gift, doesn't mean you don't have the gift.
Think back before you first spoke in tongues, did you confess Jesus as your Lord and believe God raised him from the dead? If you did that, the bible says "thou shalt be saved". The end. Period. It is a very simple promise of God based upon faith, not works.
Lots of nice comments. To many I'd simply say 'ditto'. Don't get caught up in semantics, though. If I wanted to get technical I suppose I'd say that tongues is a gift that is manifested when you haul off and speak in tongues.
I think the methodology used to 'lead people into' tongues in PFAL is flawed because it emphasises mechanics (which are quite absent from scriptures) at the expense of simple faith. Notice I said 'faith' and not your believing. No wonder we are left doubting.
I think having a faith crisis in the wake of The Way is normal and healthy if not particularly comfortable. At the root of your uncertainty is the fact that you were told these things by a flawed person who passed himself off as a holy man of God. It was 'predigested' and you are unsure because the knowledge didn't come to you by the Holy Spirit.
When I had my faith crisis I was literally driven to my knees in desperation. I admitted to God that I really didn't know anything any more, even if I was saved. I begged Him to show Himself to me and let me know if I were saved or not. I'll spare you the whole testimony, but I will say that God did give me an assurance of salvation and it wasn't through speaking in tongues. I no longer have a person to doubt, because my assurance came from the Lord himself. I can tell you I've been a different person since and that my ministry to others began in earnest that day.
There is no formula. Ask God for an answer. He delights in answering his seeking children. I will pray for you.
You only quoted John McArthur?? He's as anti-charismatic as you can get. Of course he'd say that....he'd frown on anything that he can't explain away
or threatens his particular theological stances.
John MacArthur states on page 361, "…the gift of tongues has evidently ceased because, since the apostolic age, it has reappeared only spasmodically and questionably throughout nineteen centuries of church history. The gift of tongues is nowhere alluded to or found in any writings of the church Fathers.
Another reason is perhaps SIT was so well established that they didn't need to discuss it anymore. While Montanus and his two female prophets did bring a revival of sorts and brought it to the forefront again, it doesn't preclude that no one else was still SIT.
3. Different Greek words for "set aside" and "cease". From The NET Bible I Corinthians 13: 8-11, "Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways." In the Greek text set aside is katargeo and cease is pauomai.
According to The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised 1978 Edition by Harold Moulton, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament Abridged in One Volume by Geoffrey Bromiley, The Word Study Concordance by George Wigram and Ralph Winter and A Basic Grammar of the New Testament by George Aristotle Hadjiantoniou: Katargeo [translated set aside] is passive – meaning something or someone is setting it aside. In the New Testament, this word can mean: to condemn to inactivity, to destroy, to take out of the sphere of activity, to make inoperative. In other words in saying, "prophecies, they will be set aside [katargeo]" either an event or a person is rendering prophecies inoperative. A few other katargeo occurrences: Romans 3:3 "make the faith of God without effect", I Corinthians 1:28 "to bring to naught things that are", I Corinthians 6:13 "God shall destroy both it and them", II Corinthians 3:7 "which glory was to be done away", II Timothy 1:10 "Christ, who hath abolished death."
Pauomai [translated cease] to stop, to come to an end. This word differs from katargeo in that it is in the middle voice – the subject exercises the activity indicated by the verb with special reference to itself. A few other occurrences of pauomai: Luke 11:1 "when he ceased, one of his disciples said", Acts 5:42 "they ceased not to teach and preach", I Peter 3:10 "let him refrain his tongue from evil." In other words, in saying "tongues they will cease [pauomai]" it implies a built-in stopping point.
From the above differences in the Greek words used for set aside and cease – it appears to me there's a difference in how tongues will stop and how prophesy and knowledge will stop. Perhaps it may mean God had a limited "lifespan" built into tongues and after serving their purpose [suggested in point 1] they stopped. Whereas, prophecy and knowledge will someday be rendered inoperative by some event or person – and until such time remain in effect.
Apparently, the Net Bible is only using the "lexical" forms of the Greek word. The correct and full Greek word for "set aside" is καταργηθήσονται which is a "Future passive indicative 3rd person" so prophecies have not as yet been set aside. They will someday, but not yet.
παύσονται is a future middle indicative 3rd plural, and it is of course with the action being done by the person themselves that affects their own selves. So if the tongues cease, it is also still yet in the future. The key to when all this will happen is in the following part of that verse. "When that which is perfect comes..." The debate has long raged as to what Paul meant when he spoke of the "perfect coming" In MHO, the only possibility is when the Lord Jesus Himself returns....then [at that time] we will "set aside" prophecies and our tongues "will cease" because after all, we will know Him even as we are known...therefore, we won't need to prophesy to see the Father's heart, we will be able to look upon Him for ourselves. We won't need to speak in
a special language, because we will all have the language of heaven [whatever that will be or is].
Thanks T-Bone for some neat insights that you provided.
(this one is a comprehensive unbiased sight about TWI)
Also, check out Mark!!!!!
Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Well, Chuckluck 74 from Scranton. That takes a lot of heart to ask that question. I think if I had stuck around the Way til 1999 I'd be questioning a lot of things. I still wonder if a ballbat might have been in order. Some homerun hitting on the behiney.
That is a very serious question. You need to ask yourself some questions. Do you believe what God says in His Word or do you believe what people think? You wouldn't have asked this particular question if you did not believe God's Word. First of all remember God loves you and He knows you better than anyone. He wouldn't give you anything to hurt you. He promised. We just have to trust Him. Frankly, it took me years to trust God. Once I did, nothing that happened in the ministry phased me because I knew God would take of me. I trust Him.
Speaking in tongues was a major deal to me. One of my brothers told me I had committed the unforgivable sin at one point in my life. I was scared to death. Can you imagine thinking of all eternity separated from God? It was agony. So I went to a New Year's Eve party and right behind me a young man was asked to speak in tongues and interpret. I literally turned around to watch him. THEN, I had a decision to make. Did I believe that? And I also knew it was a crossroads. God or devil, it's time to pick. I literally begged people to lead me into tongues. So, this 10th Corps girl gave me Receiving Holy Spirit today book. I read it over and over. I couldn't do it. I was sitting there waiting for something to take over, which of course didn't happen. So I got so frustrated with myself, I went f*** it, and blurted something out. I thought I made it up. I went back to the 10th Corps woman and asked for confirmation, and I got it. I truly was speaking in tongues. So by the time I took the class, I was prepared for the end. Which was good for me. But I always wondered about those real shy people or unsure people, how far do they get with it.
You have to practice. A lot. Go through the alphabet. You will find you don't have some of the letters in your tongue. That's ok. Your tongue is just for you. They all sound different.
I really think that Dr. Wierwille had this section pretty much on the money. particularly if you read the book. I Corinthians explains it so simply.
It is really Christ in you the hope of glory. it is your proof that you are God's son.
They are sound different, I reiterate. I have heard a deep gutteral one, it is very strange, but it's his and he has the bass voice to carry it off. It's really interesting.
Practice. Keep doing it. And you will see in your life, the fruit coming into play. And it isn't one manifestation one fruit. These are clumps, like grapes, they go together. As you grow they grow.
I love cmans post....it's funny. 99% of the people here were in the Way ministry. I would say 100% of them spoke in tongues. Either at the end of the class or someone led them into it.
No we don't operate God. But we do operate manifestations by our free will. Our choice. Says so in I Corinthians.
Every time we open our mouth to speak we are exercising our free will.
We may want to remember that while people may be angry and upset with Dr. Wierwille, if what he taught was God's Word, and some of it has proved out, then we may want to be careful what we are bashing a man or God.
Chuck, I dunno what to tell you, but I do speak in tongues, or something or other, not all that differently than I did 20-30 years ago. Almost 40 now, going back to the first time. I haven't learned that much more about what I'm actually doing than I ever knew. Some, but the true essence of it is about the same. More natural, normal to me now.
Evan's use of the word "mechanic" rings true to me. The Way approached "s.i.t.'s" in a very mechanical way. Lots of people will say even today "well, it worked, so it must be right". But a lot of things appear to "work" and aren't right or even close to it.
In my mind the mechanical approach used in the last session of the "old" PFAL class was about as awkward as a blind date, or like going to the Big Prom Night and being unable to get the corsage pinned on right to save your life. It ends up where it's supposed to, more or less, but there's a lot of sweat stains getting there.
Some people say it just sailed through like water off a duck. Many others would say it was more like getting a root canal without anesthetics. In short, the "one size fits all" approach was and I believe is false, it's not something to be done in a setting equal to a Moonie Mass Wedding Day where a 1,000 people say "I do" in the warmth of a football stadium. It's personal, and needs to be handled within a person's life carefully and with love.
That being said, many of us did make it through the Big Night and were fortunate enough to get a second date, so to speak. It sounds to me like your current situation requires some prayerful time between you and God, where you can come to peace with who and where you are today. That's not a bad thing. Life goes on and as it does, it will change. Keep in mind that God is always there, with you and in you. Christ knows the way, the truth and the life you aspire to. Stay tight.
I left the way in 1999 and since then I have often questioned the authenticity of what I was taught about speaking in toungues, is it real, is it a real gift of God and proves my salvation? I still speak in tognues from time to time but how do I know it is real? And what about the other manifestations? Are they what we were taught them to be. I have thought on these things and wrestled with them so heavily that I know have to be on antidepressents because I am unsure if I am even saved. I believe there has to be a God, but since I left the ministry, I feel like I have no connection with Him, was this all a sham. anyone please help me here, I am at my wit's end.
when you did romans 10:9-10 you got born again and nothing can take that away from you and you cannot loose it!! in the book of peter it says its incorruptible seed,its seed,its permanent you cannot loose it! no one can speak in tounges unless they are born again, and you can be born again and never speak in tounges. my mother took the pfal class in 1983 and never spoke in tounges,she is born agian,she was raised roman catholic and quit going and went to fellowship a few years but quit going because she didint want to go to any kind of "church" any more,but she got born again, she died in 2000 from wegners desiese and is waiting the return of christ,my younger brother never wanted anything to do with GOD but i do believe he was born again because of him doing romans 10:9-10,my dad refuses to to have anything to do with GOD. there have ben times i have doubted if i was really speaking in tounges, however when i interpret and phrophesy i am blown away by some of the things i say that are beyond me thinking up,i am definitley convinced on revelation due to MANY instances concerning different maters in my life where i thought to do things and several times it saved my life from accidents, needed a job and decided to turn down a job offer even though it was a great offer and later that day got a phone call for a job that paid an additional $10.00 more per hour and was closer to where i live(i work construction so that is somewhat temporary)how about doubting thomas in the gospel of john,there are times i thought i got revelation but didnt,there are times i got revelation and didnt think it was and then realised later i should have acted, i am not perfect but i keep on walking ,i dont give up, maybe thats why its called a walk!!you are born again,and no one got scammed by twi, look at the scriptures in the bible. twi didnt write the bible,yes there was a lot of crap that went down in twi and there were some mean assholes in leadership positions but we have weeded them out ,in peter its says false ministers shall come in among you,and you have to speak up if that happens so they can be weeded out,i still go to twi fellowships and can tell you twi has changed dramatically in the last 7 years not the same ministry,and i will also tell you that no one that i know will condemn,look down on,or criticize you or anyone else for not going to fellowship, GOD doesnt condemn either. dont let anything cause you to doubt that you are born again,remember you did romans 10:9-10,you are born again. GOD is not a sham,the bible is not a sham,twi is not a sham. i was away from the ministry from about 1988-1994 and again from 1998-2001 but i decided to return both times for the word that is taught,graet ministry these days with great ,kind ,loving caring people,and yes there are others out there teaching the accuracey of the Word ,and you dont have to be going to fellowship,church or anything in order to have GOD answer your prayer just believe. i hope this helps you ,GOD bless you
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cheranne
just know without LOVE we are nothing,just a bunch of wind chimes in a parade,if you were a deaf mute and couldn't hear or speak you would still be a child of GOD. I know how you feel but it is a lie YOU ARE A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST,EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT A CHURCH GOING,BIBLE THUMPING PERSON AND DO NOT EVER EVER FORGET THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR YOU! YOU FEEL FREE TO TALK TO ME IF YOU WANT.
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Eyesopen
You have some serious questions here my friend. There are a ton of things written about these very subjects here on this site. But you obviously want answers now or you wouldnt have started a thread. So my opinion is speaking in tongues is real. Some have admitted to making it up all those years ago but that does not negate the authenticity of it. VP taught us that the manifestations were given to every man as he the man willed. That is not true it was as God willed. Hence not everyone gets all of them, in fact there is not much reason for everyone to manifest all 9 all the time. That was a pile of you know what. When one is recieving word of wisdom why would one need to interpret tongues? It never made any sense the way twi taught.
We were all of us scammed by a master scammer. But the Bible is not a scam nor is God. Again this is my opinion, others do not share it.
Are you saved? I think that this should be likened to the analogy that if a man asks if he is crazy then he is not. If you are earnestly asking and desire a relationship with God then you probably are born again. But this is a personal journey that you must take on your own.
If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to ask. There is also a great deal of information floating around this site that may help with some of your questions and confusion. Try the search feature at the top right of your page or the front page of the site. Both are wonderfully helpful. I hope you find your answers.
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Ham
Hmmm..
how about.. go a whole YEAR without speaking in tongues. Don't do it for ANY reason.. intercession, prayer.. etc.. and see if you are any less "spiritual" (or perhaps more) at the end of the year than you were before..
just a thought.
:)
Perhaps there is a legitimate "biblical" usage for it.. but I think the way we used it, it just got in God's way..
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anotherDan
Tongues being a sign or proof of salvation is not the teaching of the Bible. You have to squeeze it to make it so. Salvation itself profoundly misunderstood in the church, and not just by TWI. I hope it's OK if instead of providing "my" answers, I suggest yet another question?
Are you loved? John 3:16 is the answer.
Talk about "the simplicity of the Word" being lost! And the simplicity of Christ.
Trust in God. Take a look at the cross; that's where you'll begin to understand God's love for you. When you get a good glimpse, you'll not need the meds any more.
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pond
When i left i felt closer to God, probably because i forgot what twi taught about the certain people loving me because they wouldnt speak to me.
Are you sure your not confusing how people felt about you and you felt about people in twi, with how god feels about you and how you feel about God?
TWI taught a show it was always a show a class a manifestation a teaching always a show something people could do.. god doesnt need a show.. talk to him pray with your understanding to a God who you want to know, and relaxe jesus christ knows your feelings of betrayal and will comfort you. you do not need a show .
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T-Bone
Howdy Chuck and welcome to Grease Spot…Some good words here by everyone. I left in 86 and also began questioning everything I was taught. There's a lot of great stuff on this website so I encourage you to search the threads – you'll find a variety of viewpoints on everything. Which is great – shows ya folks are thinking. For what it's worth I've quoted a post of mine below – it's just my opinion. When it comes right down to it – YOU are the only one who can settle the matter for your own piece of mind.
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year2027
God first
Beloved ChuckLuck74
God loves you my dear friend
welcome to the board
there alot here to read about the subject
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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oldiesman
SIT is not the gift, but a manifestation of that gift of holy spirit. But remember that if you don't manifest the gift, doesn't mean you don't have the gift.
Think back before you first spoke in tongues, did you confess Jesus as your Lord and believe God raised him from the dead? If you did that, the bible says "thou shalt be saved". The end. Period. It is a very simple promise of God based upon faith, not works.
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TheEvan
Lots of nice comments. To many I'd simply say 'ditto'. Don't get caught up in semantics, though. If I wanted to get technical I suppose I'd say that tongues is a gift that is manifested when you haul off and speak in tongues.
I think the methodology used to 'lead people into' tongues in PFAL is flawed because it emphasises mechanics (which are quite absent from scriptures) at the expense of simple faith. Notice I said 'faith' and not your believing. No wonder we are left doubting.
I think having a faith crisis in the wake of The Way is normal and healthy if not particularly comfortable. At the root of your uncertainty is the fact that you were told these things by a flawed person who passed himself off as a holy man of God. It was 'predigested' and you are unsure because the knowledge didn't come to you by the Holy Spirit.
When I had my faith crisis I was literally driven to my knees in desperation. I admitted to God that I really didn't know anything any more, even if I was saved. I begged Him to show Himself to me and let me know if I were saved or not. I'll spare you the whole testimony, but I will say that God did give me an assurance of salvation and it wasn't through speaking in tongues. I no longer have a person to doubt, because my assurance came from the Lord himself. I can tell you I've been a different person since and that my ministry to others began in earnest that day.
There is no formula. Ask God for an answer. He delights in answering his seeking children. I will pray for you.
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anotherDan
TheEvan!
thank you
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TheEvan
Well gee, you're welcome. :)
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brideofjc
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Preacher
I recommend reading the book of Acts, from chapter 1 to chapter 28. Here are a few excerpts about speaking in toungues.
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Paul spoke in tougues alot. And so do I, and it is not without benefits.
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
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Preacher
Here are a few links that might help you.
http://www.picturesofsilver.com/abundantly...dantly01-01.htm
(this site has good info) :)
http://cortright.org/study.htm
(this site has some good info on S.I.T.)
http://www.cortright.org/blankchk.htm
(5 of the 10 blank checks from the mountaintop chechbook)
http://the-way-international.org/verses.aspx
(this one is a comprehensive unbiased sight about TWI)
Also, check out Mark!!!!!
Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
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lucyvanpelt
Well, Chuckluck 74 from Scranton. That takes a lot of heart to ask that question. I think if I had stuck around the Way til 1999 I'd be questioning a lot of things. I still wonder if a ballbat might have been in order. Some homerun hitting on the behiney.
That is a very serious question. You need to ask yourself some questions. Do you believe what God says in His Word or do you believe what people think? You wouldn't have asked this particular question if you did not believe God's Word. First of all remember God loves you and He knows you better than anyone. He wouldn't give you anything to hurt you. He promised. We just have to trust Him. Frankly, it took me years to trust God. Once I did, nothing that happened in the ministry phased me because I knew God would take of me. I trust Him.
Speaking in tongues was a major deal to me. One of my brothers told me I had committed the unforgivable sin at one point in my life. I was scared to death. Can you imagine thinking of all eternity separated from God? It was agony. So I went to a New Year's Eve party and right behind me a young man was asked to speak in tongues and interpret. I literally turned around to watch him. THEN, I had a decision to make. Did I believe that? And I also knew it was a crossroads. God or devil, it's time to pick. I literally begged people to lead me into tongues. So, this 10th Corps girl gave me Receiving Holy Spirit today book. I read it over and over. I couldn't do it. I was sitting there waiting for something to take over, which of course didn't happen. So I got so frustrated with myself, I went f*** it, and blurted something out. I thought I made it up. I went back to the 10th Corps woman and asked for confirmation, and I got it. I truly was speaking in tongues. So by the time I took the class, I was prepared for the end. Which was good for me. But I always wondered about those real shy people or unsure people, how far do they get with it.
You have to practice. A lot. Go through the alphabet. You will find you don't have some of the letters in your tongue. That's ok. Your tongue is just for you. They all sound different.
I really think that Dr. Wierwille had this section pretty much on the money. particularly if you read the book. I Corinthians explains it so simply.
It is really Christ in you the hope of glory. it is your proof that you are God's son.
They are sound different, I reiterate. I have heard a deep gutteral one, it is very strange, but it's his and he has the bass voice to carry it off. It's really interesting.
Practice. Keep doing it. And you will see in your life, the fruit coming into play. And it isn't one manifestation one fruit. These are clumps, like grapes, they go together. As you grow they grow.
Hope that helps,
lucy
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cman
Wierwille's teaching of the manifestations is BS.
We do not operate God or the gift.
Ego filled nonsense with man at the center.
And that's just a start.
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lucyvanpelt
I love cmans post....it's funny. 99% of the people here were in the Way ministry. I would say 100% of them spoke in tongues. Either at the end of the class or someone led them into it.
No we don't operate God. But we do operate manifestations by our free will. Our choice. Says so in I Corinthians.
Every time we open our mouth to speak we are exercising our free will.
We may want to remember that while people may be angry and upset with Dr. Wierwille, if what he taught was God's Word, and some of it has proved out, then we may want to be careful what we are bashing a man or God.
Just a thought.
Lucy
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cman
so you operate God...hmmm
isn't it God working in us?
to will and do of his good pleasure
where does your will fit in to that?
i would think you would need to let go of it
interesting....
free will-a contradiction of terms I believe
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socks
Chuck, I dunno what to tell you, but I do speak in tongues, or something or other, not all that differently than I did 20-30 years ago. Almost 40 now, going back to the first time. I haven't learned that much more about what I'm actually doing than I ever knew. Some, but the true essence of it is about the same. More natural, normal to me now.
Evan's use of the word "mechanic" rings true to me. The Way approached "s.i.t.'s" in a very mechanical way. Lots of people will say even today "well, it worked, so it must be right". But a lot of things appear to "work" and aren't right or even close to it.
In my mind the mechanical approach used in the last session of the "old" PFAL class was about as awkward as a blind date, or like going to the Big Prom Night and being unable to get the corsage pinned on right to save your life. It ends up where it's supposed to, more or less, but there's a lot of sweat stains getting there.
Some people say it just sailed through like water off a duck. Many others would say it was more like getting a root canal without anesthetics. In short, the "one size fits all" approach was and I believe is false, it's not something to be done in a setting equal to a Moonie Mass Wedding Day where a 1,000 people say "I do" in the warmth of a football stadium. It's personal, and needs to be handled within a person's life carefully and with love.
That being said, many of us did make it through the Big Night and were fortunate enough to get a second date, so to speak. It sounds to me like your current situation requires some prayerful time between you and God, where you can come to peace with who and where you are today. That's not a bad thing. Life goes on and as it does, it will change. Keep in mind that God is always there, with you and in you. Christ knows the way, the truth and the life you aspire to. Stay tight.
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jen-o
hey socks,
i hear ya!
thank God i spoke in tongues before i ever took the pfal class!
(i didn't need no awkward blind date) LOL
peace,
jen-o
p.s hey chuck, are you still out there?
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shiftthis
when you did romans 10:9-10 you got born again and nothing can take that away from you and you cannot loose it!! in the book of peter it says its incorruptible seed,its seed,its permanent you cannot loose it! no one can speak in tounges unless they are born again, and you can be born again and never speak in tounges. my mother took the pfal class in 1983 and never spoke in tounges,she is born agian,she was raised roman catholic and quit going and went to fellowship a few years but quit going because she didint want to go to any kind of "church" any more,but she got born again, she died in 2000 from wegners desiese and is waiting the return of christ,my younger brother never wanted anything to do with GOD but i do believe he was born again because of him doing romans 10:9-10,my dad refuses to to have anything to do with GOD. there have ben times i have doubted if i was really speaking in tounges, however when i interpret and phrophesy i am blown away by some of the things i say that are beyond me thinking up,i am definitley convinced on revelation due to MANY instances concerning different maters in my life where i thought to do things and several times it saved my life from accidents, needed a job and decided to turn down a job offer even though it was a great offer and later that day got a phone call for a job that paid an additional $10.00 more per hour and was closer to where i live(i work construction so that is somewhat temporary)how about doubting thomas in the gospel of john,there are times i thought i got revelation but didnt,there are times i got revelation and didnt think it was and then realised later i should have acted, i am not perfect but i keep on walking ,i dont give up, maybe thats why its called a walk!!you are born again,and no one got scammed by twi, look at the scriptures in the bible. twi didnt write the bible,yes there was a lot of crap that went down in twi and there were some mean assholes in leadership positions but we have weeded them out ,in peter its says false ministers shall come in among you,and you have to speak up if that happens so they can be weeded out,i still go to twi fellowships and can tell you twi has changed dramatically in the last 7 years not the same ministry,and i will also tell you that no one that i know will condemn,look down on,or criticize you or anyone else for not going to fellowship, GOD doesnt condemn either. dont let anything cause you to doubt that you are born again,remember you did romans 10:9-10,you are born again. GOD is not a sham,the bible is not a sham,twi is not a sham. i was away from the ministry from about 1988-1994 and again from 1998-2001 but i decided to return both times for the word that is taught,graet ministry these days with great ,kind ,loving caring people,and yes there are others out there teaching the accuracey of the Word ,and you dont have to be going to fellowship,church or anything in order to have GOD answer your prayer just believe. i hope this helps you ,GOD bless you
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shiftthis
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