There is no God

[GarthP2000]

I'm not challenging your belief, but what you believe about others beliefs.

Errmm, ... when you challenge what he believes about others beliefs, .....

.... isn't that challenging his beliefs, ... anyway? :unsure:

Edited February 4, 2008 by GarthP2000

[Oakspear]

I'm not challenging your belief, but what you believe about others beliefs.

Gotcha; I understand that's what you're doing

How do you determine what is , as you stated or what is really happening.

You tell me - I'm not sure that one can

And would the explaining of a true experience be in a spiritual manner.

Speaking of spiritual experiences would require the tongue of the spirit.

And as you said about 'the interpretation' it would require the ears and eyes of the spirit.

I can see why you'd have that opinion, I don't see that it would necessarily be so; our mileage apparently varies

There are plenty of examples.

That's what I hear

But if one goes by the written word alone.

The spiritual ear and eye that is now will not hear, being as dead as the paper it's written on.

Okay

If as we were taught, that God is some force that is separate from us.

Then there would not be any subjective experiences at all.

It would all be external, still a separation of 'God' and man.

Which has never been true.

That's certainly a valid way to look at it.

The color of your glasses is a bit different than mine

[anotherDan]

I thought I saw God spitting tobacco, but I later realized that it was only because the idea appealed to me

[waysider]

I thought I saw God spitting tobacco, but I later realized that it was only because the idea appealed to me

[T-Bone]

I thought I saw God spitting tobacco, but I later realized that it was only because the idea appealed to me

Now if you said He was spitting in your direction you'd have TWI appeal.

[vickles]

For years I've not believed in speaking in tongues. Any one can garble something to make it look like a language. So someone using that as proof of there is a God doesn't wash for me.

Hey if God was spitting tobacco it would look like being rained on and would look like little turds. eeewwwwww

I think the reason some except religion and/or christianity is because its something to hold on to in times of great need. I know I was taught through out my whole years starting as a baby that there is one. I didn't need proof. And now looking at everything in a new prospective I am beginning to wonder if it was just my imagination when I thought miracles were happening. I mean I can go to a stop light and say in the name of Jesus Christ light change and sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. lol I used to say that was a miracle when it did change. Now thats rose colored glasses thinking.

[cman]

The tongue of the spirit would be in your language Vickles.

Twi, didn't even get close to what it does and how it works.

Not that I know it all, but there is men and women who speak.

And their words are spiritual words, even if they don't know it.

Furthermore there is a difference between tongues of men and angels.

And both, spoken with love edify the person, body soul spirit.

All one, not separated.

[Seth R.]

Hey Vickles welcome to the club, whether you call yourself Atheist, or Pantheist welcome to the world of unlimited human potential. No invisible sky giant required.

Seth

[vickles]

I had the strangest thing happen to me today. I still don't know what to believe but its really what happened.

Bob and I were traveling as I was determined to get my new puppy. The roads were really super bad and we really went into a ditch going the other way. The snow had been so deep that it was clear up my window. The first man that stopped had a really big sticker on the back that said 'I love Jesus' on it. He came out of the truck smiling came up to the car and looked right at me through the front window. It was kind of freaky. He still had that smile on his face. It was like he was there just for me. Right when he did that another man in another vehicle stopped and his jeep was able to pull us out with his big whatever it was in front of the truck. I had never seen anything like that before.

When they went to leave I thanked them so much for helping us. The man with the sticker on the back of his truck looked me straight in the eyes and said 'We have a great big wonderful God that is there for us.' Kept on smiling and went back into his truck and drove away. I got a feeling inside that he knew what I had been going through.

The other guys was so friendly also. They both had smiles even though part of the time they were laying on their backs trying to hook up the car.

As I said I have to contemplate this. I want to go and cry and say I got the answer back but did I really?

[Oakspear]

I want to go and cry and say I got the answer back but did I really?

What do you mean? Were you looking for a sign that there really is a God? And you are trying to figure out if this was the sign?

Over the years, here at GSC and in the "real" world, I've heard folks use stories like yours to demonstrate that there is a God and that he's looking out for them. Frankly, I think that, as nice as it was that you got pulled out of the ditch, it really doesn't mean anything in regard to your questions about God.

Okay, if there is a God that fits the common Christian expectation, then it seems to me that this is exactly what he would do for you. On the other hand, even if there is no God, Mr. Smiley Christian acted in just the way you would expect someone who faithfully follows the tenets of Christianity to act, jumping in to help someone in need. Heck, he acted like any reasonably neighborly or mildly altruistic person would act. I've done the same a time or two (most recently today) and I'm not a Christian.

What I'm saying is that if believing in God "works" for you, then do it, if it doesn't "work", doesn't fit the observable facts, then don't.

[Sunesis]

Or, it could have been an angel.

You have been asking. Muse some more. Its always interesting when strange "coincidences" like that happen.

[sirguessalot]

Parallel (and not perfectly) to stages of ego development, and stages of moral development, and other developmental maps and models, are James Fowler's Stages of faith development

Stage 0 - "Primal or Undifferentiated" faith (birth to 2 years), is characterized by an early learning of the safety of their environment (ie. warm, safe and secure vs. hurt, neglect and abuse)

Stage 1 – "Intuitive-Projective" faith (ages of three to seven), is characterized by the psyche's unprotected exposure to the Unconscious.

Stage 2 – "Mythic-Literal" faith (mostly in school children), stage three persons have a strong belief in the justice and reciprocity of the universe, and their deities are almost always anthropomorphic.

Stage 3 - "Synthetic-Conventional" faith (arising in adolescence) characterized by conformity

Stage 4 – "Individuative-Reflective" faith (usually mid-twenties to late thirties) a stage of angst and struggle. The individual takes personal responsibility for their beliefs and feelings.

Stage 5 – "Conjunctive" faith (mid-life crisis) acknowledges paradox and transcendence relating reality behind the symbols of inherited systems

Stage 6 – "Universalizing" faith, or what some might call "enlightenment".

i post this as a way to reinforce the simple notion that all kinds of development/evolution/growth/transformation/change occurs in general stages

and that subjective belief develops in measurable stages...where subject becomes the object (of belief) at each "leap"

in Bible-speak...this kind of map could be considered "an interpretation of tongues of angels"...and profitable to edify (i.e. invite structural change).

...to "graduate from the law" would be to stop "believing like a child" leave behind "stage 2 faith" (typically based on ethnocentric myths) ... and "become a man" and enter stage 3 (based on rational expertise and actual proof of truth)...eventually to "enter into the wilderness" of stage 4 (the beginning of discovering deeper interior meaning)...yada yada...

...thus, our faith is like gold refined seven times

and each time is not some small easy change...but a humiliating/humbling experience of interior deconstruction and reconstruction...as if our previous "map of beliefs" is dipped in fire and consumed...like a cracked pot being shattered and crushed to powder

as with birth...transformation is not a one-time event

i say all this because i find that hearing such things might help some prepare for the journey

as we often mistake the struggle and pains of rebirth for mere destruction and desolation

often causing us to try to resist transformation altogether

in other words...it helps to know...so we arent taken by surprise, mistaking "Christ for a thief"

Edited February 6, 2008 by sirguessalot

[lindyhopper]

This thread has really got me thinking. And what it reminds me of is THIS

[vickles]

What do you mean? Were you looking for a sign that there really is a God? And you are trying to figure out if this was the sign?

Over the years, here at GSC and in the "real" world, I've heard folks use stories like yours to demonstrate that there is a God and that he's looking out for them. Frankly, I think that, as nice as it was that you got pulled out of the ditch, it really doesn't mean anything in regard to your questions about God.

Okay, if there is a God that fits the common Christian expectation, then it seems to me that this is exactly what he would do for you. On the other hand, even if there is no God, Mr. Smiley Christian acted in just the way you would expect someone who faithfully follows the tenets of Christianity to act, jumping in to help someone in need. Heck, he acted like any reasonably neighborly or mildly altruistic person would act. I've done the same a time or two (most recently today) and I'm not a Christian.

What I'm saying is that if believing in God "works" for you, then do it, if it doesn't "work", doesn't fit the observable facts, then don't.

I totally get what your saying there dear Oak. After I posted about this incident. I would say not even 5 minutes after I received some bad news about one of my children.

So, I think to me it has to be about using whatever we can so that what we believe in is the truth and use our own experiences to substantiate what it is we want to believe. Interesting.

This thread has really got me thinking. And what it reminds me of is THIS

Hey Lindy,

I don't have sound on my computer, can you explain what it reminds you of? I really want to know. Thanks!!!

[cheranne]

This reminds me of a bumper sticker i saw a long time ago

I FOUND IT.

I LOST IT!

[anotherDan]

Vickles' experience is proof enough to me of God. God is love and he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him. Our dear Oak loves, too, but views and explains it differently.

May you all be surprised by love today.

[nandon]

"I AM A FALSE PROPHET!! AND GOD IS JUST A SUPERSTITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[year2027]

God first

Beloved nandon

God loves you my dear friend

So you are the one who wrote the book "The False Prophet"

I enjoy it and your love for God blesses me

just joking but there is a book call "The False Prophet" and its a good read

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[nandon]

2027

its a quote from the movie "there will be blood"

just messin around

[George Aar]

If you can catch a bit of Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God" you may find it thought provoking.

I know I did.

A highlight for me was her line "Jesus didn't die for your sins, he had a really lousy weekend for them"

and other pithy comments.

I found her to be painfully honest and open about her search for spirituality, and her failure at finding it.

It was kinda refreshing, especially in contrast with all the smarmy "witnesses" testimony of their heartfelt conversions and the like.

For the true believer, it will likely be irksome and irritating, but for those that have their doubts, I think you'll find it rather liberating.

[Sushi]

If you can catch a bit of Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God" you may find it thought provoking.

I know I did.

Which would be

(This is the first fifteen minutes of her show called, "God said HA!")

A highlight for me was her line "Jesus didn't die for your sins, he had a really lousy weekend for them"

and other pithy comments.

I found her to be painfully honest and open about her search for spirituality, and her failure at finding it.

It was kinda refreshing, especially in contrast with all the smarmy "witnesses" testimony of their heartfelt conversions and the like.

For the true believer, it will likely be irksome and irritating, but for those that have their doubts, I think you'll find it rather liberating.

Edited February 16, 2008 by Sushi

[cman]

Yes, according to what you think a "true believer" is Geo.

You would most likely think like that.

What's irritating is people being a bigot and ignorant on purpose.

It just may surprise you what a true believer would find amusing.

[sirguessalot]

being that the rational worldview arises from the ashes of the death of a mythic worldview

it seems there is naturally a lot of energy spent debunking the mythic...and rightfully so

but because the rational has not yet experienced a post-rational worldview

one cannot distinguish between pre-rational and post-rational worldviews

when the truth is, many of the world's oldest religious texts were written from a post-rational worldview

which included rigorous peer-reviewed inquiries into the nature of consciousness

but that all this post-rational work was done in a pre-rational world of language

presents somewhat of a condundrum for those who are unwilling or unable to see meaning beyond mere language

like ive written about many times....there is at least a spectrum of meanings behind the word "God"

and until one can distinguish a word from the meaning behind the word...one is locked in Babylon without the keys

and one of the only ways to make this distinction is to skilfully ask the speaker what they mean

thereby accessing meaning...bringing subjective values into the light of objective examination

being that the next stage after rational is the first post-rational stage where deeper meaning is accessed

it is natural that this would be the limit of rational thought...and better yet, its most immediate challenge

deeper rational inquiry into one's subjective nature causes what was once subject to become object

which then presents subjective material to the realm of inter-objective reason

btw, geo...for what its worth...your stream of consciousness therapy thread seems to me to be a great example of this very thing trying to happen

Edited February 17, 2008 by sirguessalot

[jeast]

I don't think there is a day that goes by that some sort of doubt and fear is not trying to seep through any cracks in our believing.

It is truly our freedom of will to believe in God or not. Although I believe what one of the poster stated that by looking at our surroundings we can see evidence of God's work, I believe it goes quite a bit deeper than that.

As sure as there is a physical law such as gravity I believe there are spritual laws or principles that yield just as consistent results. But if our hearts are hardened no matter how hard the wind blows or how hard it rains we will be like a stone and never feel or be able to acknowledge the truth because we have been made afraid believe. I understand that God has said to the effect that in our weakness his love and mercy is made known. On the other hand what if we choose to let ourselves become like a fragile plant knowing we will be more vulnerable to all the storms and troubles the world can throw at us, we will also be able to begin feel the most gentle breeze and the lightest rain. I have by my free will consciously chosen to believe there is a God. I am becoming more convinced every day, by listening, watching, reading the GS posts etc, and seeing what results each one of the principles (of God or not) that people are applying. If you want to live a life of peace, joy etc, God can deliver but only if you are willing to trust him. I did not understand this to the extent that I do today and I trust I will understand even more as I learn not to trust in the flesh.

Here are some specific examples of what I believe are the direct result of God in my life. These things of course are intertwined.

Ever growing peace, My relationship with my wife, children and granchildren. Actually learning how you could possibly love your neighbor as yourself. (I thought I knew before). Loving (but not respecting) those that have hurt me in the past.

My relationship with my co-workers, even the boss. More aware of the all the subtle things that God has created for us to enjoy.

Even after TWI, I still believe that all things work together for the good of them that love God. Does it hurt when people scoff, laugh and ridicule of course it does. But because of Christ's example I am beginning to understand why.

I still can't comprehend his mercy, we sure don't deserve it. Those that choose not to believe in God does not change the truth. And evidence of God is realized by those of us who believe.

[cman]

That's quite a testimony jeast.

Thanks.