There is no God

[cman]

jen-o, i know you re speaking with sirguess.

But all this guessing about motives and intent is silly and a waste of good brains you have.

I've known sirguess for quite a few years now and none of these things you have ascribed to him are true. You won't rattle his cage much, but if you do, fasten your seatbelt.

And open your ears cause this is probably one of the the wisest among us. Though the least is greater then he.

And he won't tell you this but I will.

Perhaps a second look from outside your own thinking would help.

You can call it stages or steps or progress but the spirit is on the move.

Whether we know it or not.

And we are right in the middle of it.

Edited April 27, 2008 by cman

[jen-o]

but if God is Spirit

and Spirit is spacious

and we are created in God's "image"

then perhaps we too are essentially fundamentally beings of spaciousness/spirit

and are only temporarily identified with matter (flesh, thoughts, feelings, etc...)

but are destined to return to that very same spaciousness we came from

and the journey from spirit to form back to spirit again is the trip of a life

sirguess,

are you saying that we are "god"??

[jen-o]

motives?

what motives? or intents?

i don't think i've ascribed any motives to anyone...

perhaps you could point out where i did that...

cman,

i appreciate that you've known sirguess for a while... and i see that you think highly of him...

however, i'm NOT trying to rattle his cage... and i doubt HIGHLY that i'll need a seatbelt (LOL)

i understand where he is coming from... i just TOTALLY DISAGREE...

(and i think i'm allowed to do that)

i know that you think he is extremely wise...

however, i perceive that his wisdom is of the world (and he seems to be coming from an eastern mystic perspective)

it appears that you've assumed that i have not considered this worldview before (but you would be in error)

i have considered many alternative worldviews prior to subscribing to a biblical worldview, so i am not sure what you mean when you state that "looking outside my own thinking would help"... help what??

peace,

jen-o

oh, btw, what do you mean "the spirit is on the move"??

Edited April 27, 2008 by jen-o

[sirguessalot]

please just ignore me, jen-o

[jen-o]

no one is probably gonna like what i have to say next...

but i am getting a real creepy feeling right about now...

first lucy, and now cman and sirguess...

it's that old "don't question us" or we will "mark and avoid you" feeling...

[cman, the mark and avoid part doesn't apply to you, although you were basically telling me not to question the wisdom of sirguess]

anyway, what's up with this??

this is a message board...

people are allowed to comment on other people's publically posted messages...

sirguess, if you want to ignore me, that's your perogative (although it does smack of "mark and avoid"), but i hope you are not telling me that i am suppose to ignore everything you write (cuz it sures sounds like you are directing me to NOT comment on anything that you post)

it seems like there are a few people round these parts that do NOT like to be questioned about what they think and what they post...

what, people can't handle others disagreeing with them??

i dunno; it just creeps me out...

Edited April 27, 2008 by jen-o

[cman]

sorry it took me so long to get back to you (or maybe you didn't want me to get back to you) LOL

i used the term just once, but it seems it really stuck in your bonnet (so to speak)

[cman]

it seems like there are a few people round these parts that do NOT like to be questioned about what they think and what they post...

what, people can't handle others disagreeing with them??

I don't mind disagreeing, it's part of life and using the bible to back up your stance is is not substantial, but have at it

seeing there is many interpretations of such words

i will not be tricked again into ignoring life because of someone else's thinking

and i can handle your insinuations

even if you don't see them

[cman]

And I don't mind being questioned about what I believe, even when it starts a long ways off, i can get to some specifics, but there is always, always changes in perspective. our perspective of God and ourselves, which are not much different. imo.

Just as your perspectives have changed.

If they haven't, I don't see how they couldn't over time.

Edited April 27, 2008 by cman

[jen-o]

actually, cman, that was not directed at you... and i was not referring to you when i posted that...

i am glad that you don't mind disagreements.... :~)

i agree they are a part of life!

peace,

jen-o

p.s. i was not insinuating anything about you, cman...

p.p.s. obviously i disagree with your statement that using the bible is "not substantial"... :~D

[cman]

I'll rephrase.

Using the bible to substantiate a belief without actually experiencing what it's talking about.

Which I'm not saying you haven't experienced, nor do i want proof as some others.

None of the bible is written to us, but about us.

I'm not interested in what is to us.

I am interested in what is about us, for real, in life, experienced.

Which just about completely changes the outward appearance of what it it says.

And becomes living Words of life that give NEW life to dead words.

Again not saying you haven't experienced the Word which is not written but living.

Living, breathing, changing, as life, as we progress and grow, as Jesus grew, and many many others.

Sure God doesn't change, but what does that mean really.

What does not change?

Edited April 27, 2008 by cman

[cman]

And to clarify-the changes are in our understanding of what it is talking about, not the words themselves, but the understanding of the bigger picture and not stuck on one or two words which severely limit understanding in anything.

[jen-o]

hi cman,

this may be a matter of semantics...

i think we might be thinking in different terms, but if i understand you correctly (and can put it into my own terms and words);

then what i think you are saying is that elevating words of the bible (to the point of worship) brings no real understanding of the truths contained therein...

(much like twi did, and tried to teach us to do by worshipping the dissected word; but the words remained dead on the page)

because it is only via the Holy Spirit's teaching someone that the words in the bible come alive... because the words are spiritual...

am i understanding you correctly?

peace,

jen-o

Edited April 28, 2008 by jen-o

[cman]

Well, I don't like to say it, but a matter of semantics is a matter of semantics.

I don't believe the bible is ever meant to be a guide to living, only an aid, as well as many writings.

Our aid as stated in the bible is the spirit. Again it's pointing us to the spiritual.

Or as some say 'mystic' which don't bother me any cause I'm still mystified by many things.

Though the term 'mystic' is usually derogatory remark, in some circles.

But not to me, even after and during spiritual events they are still spiritual and mystic.

And can only be shown to us by the spirit itself. In many many ways.

No matter what the bible seems to say to the scholars, they mostly miss the point.

And I'm no exception, learning the interpretation of a thing takes patience and deeper sight then the words written.

I've seem to have found, in part, that the actual learning precedes that which we can actual see in the scriptures. In other words, the spiritual eye comes first enabling to see what is written in our hearts. Then what they were talking about in the bible and many other writings open up more clearly. Deeper then the previous surface, carnal mind can reach.

And by carnal, I do not mean that in a bad way, we did not choose this.

But we can choose other choices.

What is written in the bible came from the hearts of spiritual men and women.

Not from scholars.

[jen-o]

and if i may add...

a proverb or a parable may have a surface meaning with a truth readily available to all, but it is via the Holy Spirit that we are given a deeper understanding of that same passage...

i do believe there are layers of truth in the bible, as well as a wide variation of application... (somewhat like midrash)

peace,

jen-o,

[cman]

a proverb or a parable may have a surface meaning with a truth readily available to all, but it is via the Holy Spirit that we are given a deeper understanding of that same passage...

i do believe there are layers of truth in the bible, as well as a wide variation of application...

Very true, so if you would substitute stages with layers then you know what sirguess is saying.

We still have the parable as well as we still having faith.

It's just a matter of deeper seeing that moves us from faith to faith in stages or layers,

same thing to sirguess as it is to you.

As seeing a parable as moving from truth to truth. Moving from layer to layer or stage to stage or faith to faith or seeing to seeing.

Growth, process, stages, steps-measurable if you will. Though we already have it at hand, each layer or another and see what is revealed as we are led by the spirit.

And some don't buy that spirit stuff, but what else could be leading?

We learn to tune into those layers or stages and even see more of that layer or stage or faith which is not without substance. and also see more layers to uncover and past and present layers to be seen more clearly.

See what sirguess is saying?

Calling it stages is not a hierarchal type of growth.

But a natural spiritual growth for all.

It cannot be stopped. though it seems so at times.

And no one is at the same layer, hardly ever. No layer is greater then another.

But we can see that there is more to see, not only from the covered layers but the uncovered ones as well.

See it?

[jen-o]

dear cman,

sadly, i do not think that sirguess is saying the same thing at all...

however, we will never truly know... because i doubt sirguess will enter the conversation to clarify this, since he has abrubtly cut off all communication with me (and made it clear in a private message although he refused to tell me the reasons why)

a few things have been said about this sort of thing on another thread...

and i can only reiterate what oak said: it is frustrating when folks come to a discussion forum, and then refuse to hold a discussion...

(well, that's a paraphrase) :)

peace,

jen-o

[cman]

You never know, by not trying to see what another is saying.

And old sirguess might surpise ya.

He's got a lot going on these days,

so time to make his point clear,

as he was trying to do,

is time consuming.

And not that you are not worth the effort.

I know all will see in due time, so does he.

You couldn't grasp what he was saying but you did see what I said.

There isn't much difference except for the layers uncovered.

[sirguessalot]

Jen-o

...i am really sorry,

i just dont feel i have the time or energy to engage in all this in the ways you seem to want to

and i feel that we have not come to very many clear agreements as to how this message board/discussion forum is supposed to work

or what we expect of each other here...and i think this can add to frustrations

maybe some other day...ok?

in all space and grace...

+ODD

[jen-o]

sirguess, not a problem...

(i really do not have any expectations of how much someone should engage in conversation on a message board)

actually, i have no expectatons at all (that keeps things easy) :)

it just seemed that my disagreement with you caused the conversation to cease...

but really, it's not a problem for me...

we can always meet up some other time and place (if you like)

peace,

jen-o

[Steveo]

Thanks so much you all for your responses.

As you know I've been to Greasespot for about 5 years. I've been such a believer of God and thought that I have felt his presence. I'm truly wondering if that was my rose colored glasses playing a trick on my mind or if he is just not showing Himself to me lately. Or maybe if there is one he has decided for me to do this alone for a while as some parents have to with their children.

My whole life and family have been having major downs lately. Life changing downs and I look around and don't see Him.

Jonny and others truly brought tears to my eyes with the words used. But is it just words?

George, I'm wondering if what you say is true if I could handle it with no hope? I've always said I need to have something to look forward to in the long run. So, if I stay on the route of 'I don't believe' I wonder if something good for that hope leaves me? This is what I'm afraid of.

Actually I agree with you in much of this.

Organized religion is greatly just "stuff" that people say and do, take for example the pastor of Obamas, Reverend Wright ( Reverend Wrong, Lol) He just spouts out stuff and makes it up as he goes along, all with a "chip" on his shoulder and hostility towards those groups he hates.

I feel its better to love people and be nice to them, I do this at work a lot and people notice it! They all have a good intuition as to who is a nice comnsiderate person of good will.

And....as for God....I believe in God yes....but...I believe His ways are high above ours, and to ascibe to Him human motivations, and human chatracteristics is silly ( ex. Kennith Copeland said "God is 6 foot tall and has a white beard and very large hands", Lol)

My life has been rock and rolled a lot too....I had heart surgery last year AND my Mom died too which was very painful for me. Its at times like these when I get that "true religion" and in my private life cry out to God. I feel this is a legitimate way approach God, as our creator, our source of help, and the Great Spirit that will guide us home when we die, that is my belief, and also my experience so many times over esp. in my job as a male nurse, as I sit with the dying patient, thats where we turn, thats our hope and our comfort.

[cman]

What was it said-the vail was upon their eyes?

Was the vail in the mind?

And which way do we look to see this God?

Inside or out? Or both?

Will this God speak?

I hear this God in voices of people at times....

Even if they don't know I'm listening.