As you know I've been to Greasespot for about 5 years. I've been such a believer of God and thought that I have felt his presence. I'm truly wondering if that was my rose colored glasses playing a trick on my mind or if he is just not showing Himself to me lately. Or maybe if there is one he has decided for me to do this alone for a while as some parents have to with their children.
My whole life and family have been having major downs lately. Life changing downs and I look around and don't see Him.
Jonny and others truly brought tears to my eyes with the words used. But is it just words?
George, I'm wondering if what you say is true if I could handle it with no hope? I've always said I need to have something to look forward to in the long run. So, if I stay on the route of 'I don't believe' I wonder if something good for that hope leaves me? This is what I'm afraid of.
I can't find the Scripture right now, but either Psalms or Proverbs, "If you seek Him with your whole heart, He will be found" It is the lack of
hope that will dry your bones. For in due time, you will look around and wonder why you are still hanging around here. Keep the faith.
Like John Lennon said, there's nothing to kill or die for. And fanatic parents won't have a reason to abuse or even kill their children due to fear of "demon possession" or other such claptrap. And horny young Muslim men won't be repressed enough to think that their only hope of getting laid is to fly airliners into skyscrapers. And I'm sure there's lots of other benefits from not hanging onto irrational "faith".
I'm getting closer to thinking that believing in things that you don't have adequate proof for is nigh unto immoral. Just think of all the millions of people that have died needlessly because of the demands of one fictitious being or another. All those that have been enslaved, persecuted, and murdered because they believed in a different tinkerbell than the folks with the guns (or more and bigger guns) did.
I tend to think we'd all be a lot better off if we accepted the possibility that this just might be our only ride on this merry-go-round, and that if we can't get along with one another now, there ain't gonna be any heavenly arbitration at a later date to sort it all out.
Living 60, 70, 80 years may not seem like enough, but, honestly, doesn't living FOREVER seem a whole lot WORSE?
I'm getting closer to thinking that believing in things that you don't have adequate proof for is nigh unto immoral.
A couple of hedges there, George? namely, the words "getting closer to" (meaning you're not there yet), and even if you get there, your word "nigh" (close to, right?).
Of course, I attribute a lot of that to your honesty in not pretending to be absolutely sure. That is, if I don't have adequate proof there is a God and/or that there is a God as the Bible details, you do not have adequate proof that there isn't, and I believe you have honestly stated this. So, I shouldn't be immoral by believing in God as the Bible describes, and you shouldn't be immoral by believing God is not with us.
Of course, there are a lot of immoral people betting on this Sunday's game without adequate proof. Some people claim they "know that they know", but if they could, would they bet their life for a few sawbucks?
Seriously, I wish either one of us could do something to deliver some smiles to Vickles...HER smiles, not just ours.
I find myself talking to one or both of my cats a lot lately..
Now this is just plain weird..
The lady cat of the house.. just got "fixed". I absolutely HATE docs.. shots.. medical procedures.. no, I don't hate them as human beings or anything..
but I'd almost swear.. this cat looked at me and said "thanks"..
Hey, I've never been to doctrinal before. Have I gone up the ladder, or what?
George I read your post and understood what your saying....loved your humor along with it!!!
Hey, excie, we have a lot in common, I talk to myself too...I think its because I'm the only one that hears it....
Don't get me wrong. I'm not depressed or trying to heal from TWI, trying to gather my thoughts on what really do I believe? I don't know. If I don't believe and then the second coming comes, will I be left behind because of my unbelief? Or do I believe because out of fear something might happen to me? Do I believe because it just makes me feel good? What is deep down inside of me?
For so many years I've gone with the program and just went with everyone else. Now that I've come to an empass (sorry, spelling may be wrong), or should I say cross roads in life, and as I age (btw, the aging thing is not as much fun as I thought) I am beginning to feel without hope. I so want hope. Maybe not in the sense that we were taught in TWI. Not that kind of hope but an awakening hope. Something that I can see and feel of something wonderful. Not something unreal but something tangible.
Life is hard I know, but I see all these people that look like they have such wonderful lives, great children and have everything beyond what I can even think of. I'm wondering did I miss out on something here? If there is a God how come I don't have what they have? Why do I have to have a God awful life? Why is it here when I have dedicated my whole life to a just God? Don't tell me that there is a devil and devil spirits I won't believe that. Otherwise if there really was how come it seems that those seems to be victorious?
Anyways, enough with my thoughts. Thanks again for all your thoughts on this. This to me give me a lot to think about and I hope you all truly understand what I'm trying to say.
I believe TWI did not teach us about Christ. Oh, sure, we'd trot him out on Easter or Xmas, and stick his name on the end of our prayers, but other than that, he was "absent."
The "Word" took the place of the "absent" Christ allowing VP and LCM to take Christ's place and become mediators for people (they got the revvy dontcha know).
Once I found Christ - who he is, his divinity, that he is not absent, etc., I found what I had been missing.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not depressed or trying to heal from TWI, trying to gather my thoughts on what really do I believe? I don't know. If I don't believe and then the second coming comes, will I be left behind because of my unbelief? Or do I believe because out of fear something might happen to me? Do I believe because it just makes me feel good? What is deep down inside of me?
Sounds like really important questions. And ones that will take some time for you to honestly some to the conclusion yourself on. I know for me, what I believe today is certainly not what I believed yesterday. My beliefs and mind and thoughts and perceptions change almost on a daily basis. Course there are core beliefs that don't change much. Such as is there a God. But that's only me.
I think one important thing though is you never want to believe something out of fear. If Christ returns and you haven't believed, don't allow that to hinder you from thinking either way. Those are the kid of thoughts that enslave us. Keep us from enjoying life. Even if what we believe is true, it's never a fun truth! If there is a God, and I believe there is, then he certainly wouldn't have allowed you to have life only to be scared or fearful of Him.
And believing something because the majority and everyone else does, really never works. The 'majority' just depends on who you poll, and that's likely to change from day to day. And really deep down inside it's not you, it's them. You need to be you, unless you like to be enslaved to others and what they think. What good is their of life if you're not able to think for yourself and claim this and that because YOU believe it! Forget what they think, forget what I think, what do you want to believe? Hard questions, sure, especially for things such as 'is there a God', things that can't 100% be proven scientifically.
Only, I do believe those who ask Him, he'll reveal himself to. As the scriptures say, he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. If you never know and try it out, you'll never know. The same with anything else, give it whirl try things out, and then make your own conclusions, and not out of fear or what everyone else says.
And when it comes to our lives, I believe we are the ones who make it what it is. Sure, I believe God watches over us, as any parent does for their children, even helps us when we need it, but as any parent knows, you can't force a child to do something or do everything for them. And while some go on to be millionaires and others just barely eat a meal a day, it's due to choices we make. God, as our Father, isn't going to control you or I to make those choices, only provide help and direction when we need it. And that's where it's up to us to follow Him or not. And as any parent, but one with all knowledge, he knows what's best for us, and really is just waiting for us to come to Him and jump in His lap and spend time getting to know Him. He won't force you. He won't even make you believe that. But if you go to jump, I know he'll catch ya! And honestly, that's all He has desired since you were born.
Some people will tell you with great certainty that doom, gloom, disaster, devil spirits,bad stuff etc will invade your life if you doubt--> question--> quit believing--> change beliefs etc.
You'll have to decide if you agree with them. That will greatly determine your direction.
Vickles, I've struggled with your question as well as whether or not to post here, rather than the little bit of PM that I did.
So much good has been added here that anything I might add would be impotent except to remember you are loved and valued and important.
To God? I think so, yes.
But it's not my choice or decision to determine your God or your fellowship with same.
I do know that for my own personal life, there have been enough of those moments when I doubted big time. Why would a loving and good God not DO SOMETHING when my children's father dropped dead at age 35 when they were but 15 and 2 years old. That is my biggest and I yet struggle with that, only to have to accept that it is what it is and it wasn't anything to do with God, I've come to understand.
For my own emotional health, I had to go to the source. I had to hollar at God and ask him the really tough questions that I absolutely did not want the answers to. And a little boy told me that God can handle it if I'm mad at God.
It was circumstances and other things that didn't fall into place when they should have or how they should have. It wasn't God's fault; took me awhile to get that, as it will take you whatever time you need to find what is right for you, alone.
Why do babies die? Why do really really bad people get to live and walk free when the good ones don't.
I don't know.
In some form, I like that we can talk about this, as I'm taking on some changes that might be very good and because of it, other things are coming up that I had stuffed away very neatly thank you very much. But the new life things are great and exciting and there are no sure things and that's the exciting part. The healing part is that for whatever reason, and it doesn't matter at the end of the day, I'm seeing some other things clearer and brighter.
I can't argue with that too much
It's time, maybe for you, also.
I can pray with you and for you to my God and expect the prayers the way I always do.
Remember, too, that we enter stages in this life that stir the nice tidy life we've arranged and come to find comfortable. A friend told me yesterday, when I asked about 'how do you know you're doing the right thing', he said "you don't". I love that because it's the total opposite of the canned "you just know".
It takes courage to get up some mornings and then more courage to keep going through that particular crappy day and some are much crappier. But I think the important part is that we do get up.
Sometimes, too, we just need to express, to vent, to say it and then the answer might be there. More often it's no where to be found, but at least we know what the question is. Right?
Only you can answer this for you; that's the coolest part. I'm here if you answer them here or never mention it again.
The God of the Bible makes perfect sense to me, having experienced His presence long before I "met" Him in the Bible, or ever heard of the Way Ministry. I had forgotten Him, and at times I'm certain, He "departed" from me, for reasons known fully only by Himself -- some of it, I understand.
But as Paul said on Mars Hill, quoting a non-Jewish source, God is "not far" from every one of us, and we should seek after Him, "feel" after Him, if perhaps we might "find" Him.
I've been such a believer of God and thought that I have felt his presence... I'm truly wondering if that was my rose colored glasses playing a trick on my mind or if he is just not showing Himself to me lately. Or maybe if there is one he has decided for me to do this alone for a while as some parents have to with their children...My whole life and family have been having major downs lately. Life changing downs and I look around and don't see Him.
You have to decide for yourself what makes sense for you.
It is my personal opinion that much of what happens when folks say that they have experienced the presence of God (or gods) or have a relationship with God or what-have-you is entirely subjective and is influenced heavily by pre-conceived notions and tendencies. In other words, people tend to credit whatever their conception of "God" is whenever something spiritual, miraculous, or unexplained happens. I know folks who have similar stories to ones that I hear from Christians, and credit the Goddess, various Hindu gods or space aliens. (Really)
George, I'm wondering if what you say is true if I could handle it with no hope? I've always said I need to have something to look forward to in the long run. So, if I stay on the route of 'I don't believe' I wonder if something good for that hope leaves me? This is what I'm afraid of.
This is a trap that many people who are considering a non-theistic life fall into, staying in "God-mode" out of fear of some kind. (I'm not saying that all or even most God-believers do this, btw). They start to consider that maybe God isn't what they thought he was, or doesn't exist, but quail at the thought of no prayers, no afterlife, no vague comfort from his "presence". So they stick with at least a superficial faith in order to cling to the things that they think that they can't do without.
Looking forward to something to look forward to in the long run? How about living a good life? How about being the best person that you can be, giving to others, leaving a legacy?
I personally have no idea whether there is an afterlife or not. Some of them look appealing, and intellectually lean toward one or two, but I live my life as if I am getting no second chance, no overtime in the sky, no eternal reward. I want to be satisfied when I draw my last breath that I did my best and was on balance a force for good. If there is something beyond that, well, I consider that a bonus.
OK--- Now that I have your attention, I'll back up a step.
When I was just a little whippersnapper, I was quite fond of capturing all sorts of creatures and critters.
("Snakes and snails, and puppy dog tails--------------------------")
I would put them in a jar and watch their every move.
Kind of a miniature zoo of sorts.
Sometimes I would look at them through a magnifier.
I would watch the grasshoppers "spit tobacco".
I would look at them from every conceivable angle and sometimes even(GASP!) dissect them.
Still, I had no idea what made them "tick", so to speak.
In fact, the closer I studied them, the further I got from really understanding what their existence must be like outside the jar.
Yet, when you see them zigging and zagging their way through an open field you appreciate them in a sense that transcends mere words.
I think God is a bit like that.
We put Him in this little jar we call "religion" and try to understand the vast picture He represents.
Sometimes we look at Him through a magnifier.
We look at Him from all kinds of angles ,and yet, it takes us further away from appreciating Him.
Not understanding Him, mind you, just appreciating Him.
When you witness a baby take its' first breath or hold someones hand as they take their last, there is some sort of wordless message from God in those moments.
When you see the complexity with which the human body is constructed and the precision with which it functions, it just seems rather silly to think it all happened by chance.
Now, that's not to discount the reality of evolution.
Maybe evolution is a key component in the way the big scheme of things works.
I don't know.
But I think if you try to put God in some sort of jar, you miss the beauty of how he zig zags freely through the fields of life.
I've been following this thread with interest but haven't had anything to contribute yet. Not that this is anything worth noting now, but I'm always intrigued by the dynamics of a person's belief system. I was re-reading Blaise Pascal's The Art of Persuasion today. A basic point he makes is that people usually arrive at their beliefs – not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive…IMHO there's something to that.
Well…what do you expect from someone who reasons from a weird hybrid of faith based/critical thinking process …Just trying to be honest here…I like to think I'm logical about things – but figure a lot of times on philosophical issues, my criteria for acceptable proof is a matter of my own choosing – and that I'm not always aware of the driving force behind my choices.
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brideofjc
I can't find the Scripture right now, but either Psalms or Proverbs, "If you seek Him with your whole heart, He will be found" It is the lack of
hope that will dry your bones. For in due time, you will look around and wonder why you are still hanging around here. Keep the faith.
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year2027
God first
Beloved vickles
God loves you my dear friend
I look at this subject and wanted to reply to you but I do not know how
but I understand what you are saying and glad you are willing to bring things in the open
I will not tell you what to do or what to believe
so all I can do is understand and love you
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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J0nny Ling0
Roy,
You are a dear Brother. And with a holy kiss blowing from me your way,
Kevin
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year2027
God first
Beloved Kevin or Jonny Lingo
God loves you my dear friend
you are dear to me too
thanks for the holy kiss
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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RachelYsrael
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George Aar
And also on the plus side, Vickles,
Like John Lennon said, there's nothing to kill or die for. And fanatic parents won't have a reason to abuse or even kill their children due to fear of "demon possession" or other such claptrap. And horny young Muslim men won't be repressed enough to think that their only hope of getting laid is to fly airliners into skyscrapers. And I'm sure there's lots of other benefits from not hanging onto irrational "faith".
I'm getting closer to thinking that believing in things that you don't have adequate proof for is nigh unto immoral. Just think of all the millions of people that have died needlessly because of the demands of one fictitious being or another. All those that have been enslaved, persecuted, and murdered because they believed in a different tinkerbell than the folks with the guns (or more and bigger guns) did.
I tend to think we'd all be a lot better off if we accepted the possibility that this just might be our only ride on this merry-go-round, and that if we can't get along with one another now, there ain't gonna be any heavenly arbitration at a later date to sort it all out.
Living 60, 70, 80 years may not seem like enough, but, honestly, doesn't living FOREVER seem a whole lot WORSE?
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Lifted Up
A couple of hedges there, George? namely, the words "getting closer to" (meaning you're not there yet), and even if you get there, your word "nigh" (close to, right?).
Of course, I attribute a lot of that to your honesty in not pretending to be absolutely sure. That is, if I don't have adequate proof there is a God and/or that there is a God as the Bible details, you do not have adequate proof that there isn't, and I believe you have honestly stated this. So, I shouldn't be immoral by believing in God as the Bible describes, and you shouldn't be immoral by believing God is not with us.
Of course, there are a lot of immoral people betting on this Sunday's game without adequate proof. Some people claim they "know that they know", but if they could, would they bet their life for a few sawbucks?
Seriously, I wish either one of us could do something to deliver some smiles to Vickles...HER smiles, not just ours.
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excathedra
i hope there's a god otherwise i'm talking to myself A LOT
--
ps. i think this should have stayed in the OPEN place
but then i talk to myself a lot ;)
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Ham
I find myself talking to one or both of my cats a lot lately..
Now this is just plain weird..
The lady cat of the house.. just got "fixed". I absolutely HATE docs.. shots.. medical procedures.. no, I don't hate them as human beings or anything..
but I'd almost swear.. this cat looked at me and said "thanks"..
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vickles
Hey, I've never been to doctrinal before. Have I gone up the ladder, or what?
George I read your post and understood what your saying....loved your humor along with it!!!
Hey, excie, we have a lot in common, I talk to myself too...I think its because I'm the only one that hears it....
Don't get me wrong. I'm not depressed or trying to heal from TWI, trying to gather my thoughts on what really do I believe? I don't know. If I don't believe and then the second coming comes, will I be left behind because of my unbelief? Or do I believe because out of fear something might happen to me? Do I believe because it just makes me feel good? What is deep down inside of me?
For so many years I've gone with the program and just went with everyone else. Now that I've come to an empass (sorry, spelling may be wrong), or should I say cross roads in life, and as I age (btw, the aging thing is not as much fun as I thought) I am beginning to feel without hope. I so want hope. Maybe not in the sense that we were taught in TWI. Not that kind of hope but an awakening hope. Something that I can see and feel of something wonderful. Not something unreal but something tangible.
Life is hard I know, but I see all these people that look like they have such wonderful lives, great children and have everything beyond what I can even think of. I'm wondering did I miss out on something here? If there is a God how come I don't have what they have? Why do I have to have a God awful life? Why is it here when I have dedicated my whole life to a just God? Don't tell me that there is a devil and devil spirits I won't believe that. Otherwise if there really was how come it seems that those seems to be victorious?
Anyways, enough with my thoughts. Thanks again for all your thoughts on this. This to me give me a lot to think about and I hope you all truly understand what I'm trying to say.
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Sunesis
I believe TWI did not teach us about Christ. Oh, sure, we'd trot him out on Easter or Xmas, and stick his name on the end of our prayers, but other than that, he was "absent."
The "Word" took the place of the "absent" Christ allowing VP and LCM to take Christ's place and become mediators for people (they got the revvy dontcha know).
Once I found Christ - who he is, his divinity, that he is not absent, etc., I found what I had been missing.
I hope you find what you are looking for.
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year2027
God first
Beloved 'vickles
God loves you my dear, dear friend
I love you too
I get confused a lot too and I talk to everything from the wall to the air I breath
doctrinal is great its were we talk about everything from beinng alone to beinng in the mist of people
yes one must discover who they are by what is deep within their heart
the word believe has nothing to do with what is in a person heart
the thing that makes you, you is the love you feel from the things around you whether you can see them or not
I have leant what it takes for me to be happy is I must love the place I live and make the most of what I have
You looking at us with rose color glases
Let me tell you about my life
I live alone otherwise I have to leave the trailer to find some one to talk too
My sisters do not call me I have to call them and I go out of my way to visit them once a week
It is the work I do to keep my head on straight
I go on these boards to meet people and pass time which I have come to love many people here
I spend hours talking at God
I must plan my money so I can have enough to eat or buy something special
every payday I take myself out to eat or rent a movie
I watch a lot of TV and I sleep a lot
I have friends I visit in town but I go to them most of the time
the truth is am I happy because I do what it takes to fill my life with joy
but I still feel sad now and then but I do not let it get to me
I still talk out loud at God and myself
I believe devils spirits are just the bad ideals or images that come to our mind like when I feel sorry for myself
but I know that is not best for me so I move that ideal out of my heart of my brain
I believe there is a God because I feel real love from him but if there is not at least I am having good feelings loving him
you see people's life on paper all ways look like a bed of roses but we all have ups and downs
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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TrustAndObey
Sounds like really important questions. And ones that will take some time for you to honestly some to the conclusion yourself on. I know for me, what I believe today is certainly not what I believed yesterday. My beliefs and mind and thoughts and perceptions change almost on a daily basis. Course there are core beliefs that don't change much. Such as is there a God. But that's only me.
I think one important thing though is you never want to believe something out of fear. If Christ returns and you haven't believed, don't allow that to hinder you from thinking either way. Those are the kid of thoughts that enslave us. Keep us from enjoying life. Even if what we believe is true, it's never a fun truth! If there is a God, and I believe there is, then he certainly wouldn't have allowed you to have life only to be scared or fearful of Him.
And believing something because the majority and everyone else does, really never works. The 'majority' just depends on who you poll, and that's likely to change from day to day. And really deep down inside it's not you, it's them. You need to be you, unless you like to be enslaved to others and what they think. What good is their of life if you're not able to think for yourself and claim this and that because YOU believe it! Forget what they think, forget what I think, what do you want to believe? Hard questions, sure, especially for things such as 'is there a God', things that can't 100% be proven scientifically.
Only, I do believe those who ask Him, he'll reveal himself to. As the scriptures say, he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. If you never know and try it out, you'll never know. The same with anything else, give it whirl try things out, and then make your own conclusions, and not out of fear or what everyone else says.
And when it comes to our lives, I believe we are the ones who make it what it is. Sure, I believe God watches over us, as any parent does for their children, even helps us when we need it, but as any parent knows, you can't force a child to do something or do everything for them. And while some go on to be millionaires and others just barely eat a meal a day, it's due to choices we make. God, as our Father, isn't going to control you or I to make those choices, only provide help and direction when we need it. And that's where it's up to us to follow Him or not. And as any parent, but one with all knowledge, he knows what's best for us, and really is just waiting for us to come to Him and jump in His lap and spend time getting to know Him. He won't force you. He won't even make you believe that. But if you go to jump, I know he'll catch ya! And honestly, that's all He has desired since you were born.
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Bramble
Some people will tell you with great certainty that doom, gloom, disaster, devil spirits,bad stuff etc will invade your life if you doubt--> question--> quit believing--> change beliefs etc.
You'll have to decide if you agree with them. That will greatly determine your direction.
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Shellon
Vickles, I've struggled with your question as well as whether or not to post here, rather than the little bit of PM that I did.
So much good has been added here that anything I might add would be impotent except to remember you are loved and valued and important.
To God? I think so, yes.
But it's not my choice or decision to determine your God or your fellowship with same.
I do know that for my own personal life, there have been enough of those moments when I doubted big time. Why would a loving and good God not DO SOMETHING when my children's father dropped dead at age 35 when they were but 15 and 2 years old. That is my biggest and I yet struggle with that, only to have to accept that it is what it is and it wasn't anything to do with God, I've come to understand.
For my own emotional health, I had to go to the source. I had to hollar at God and ask him the really tough questions that I absolutely did not want the answers to. And a little boy told me that God can handle it if I'm mad at God.
It was circumstances and other things that didn't fall into place when they should have or how they should have. It wasn't God's fault; took me awhile to get that, as it will take you whatever time you need to find what is right for you, alone.
Why do babies die? Why do really really bad people get to live and walk free when the good ones don't.
I don't know.
In some form, I like that we can talk about this, as I'm taking on some changes that might be very good and because of it, other things are coming up that I had stuffed away very neatly thank you very much. But the new life things are great and exciting and there are no sure things and that's the exciting part. The healing part is that for whatever reason, and it doesn't matter at the end of the day, I'm seeing some other things clearer and brighter.
I can't argue with that too much
It's time, maybe for you, also.
I can pray with you and for you to my God and expect the prayers the way I always do.
Remember, too, that we enter stages in this life that stir the nice tidy life we've arranged and come to find comfortable. A friend told me yesterday, when I asked about 'how do you know you're doing the right thing', he said "you don't". I love that because it's the total opposite of the canned "you just know".
It takes courage to get up some mornings and then more courage to keep going through that particular crappy day and some are much crappier. But I think the important part is that we do get up.
Sometimes, too, we just need to express, to vent, to say it and then the answer might be there. More often it's no where to be found, but at least we know what the question is. Right?
Only you can answer this for you; that's the coolest part. I'm here if you answer them here or never mention it again.
:)
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anotherDan
Vickles,
I too feel that you have to find "your own way."
The God of the Bible makes perfect sense to me, having experienced His presence long before I "met" Him in the Bible, or ever heard of the Way Ministry. I had forgotten Him, and at times I'm certain, He "departed" from me, for reasons known fully only by Himself -- some of it, I understand.
But as Paul said on Mars Hill, quoting a non-Jewish source, God is "not far" from every one of us, and we should seek after Him, "feel" after Him, if perhaps we might "find" Him.
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Oakspear
It is my personal opinion that much of what happens when folks say that they have experienced the presence of God (or gods) or have a relationship with God or what-have-you is entirely subjective and is influenced heavily by pre-conceived notions and tendencies. In other words, people tend to credit whatever their conception of "God" is whenever something spiritual, miraculous, or unexplained happens. I know folks who have similar stories to ones that I hear from Christians, and credit the Goddess, various Hindu gods or space aliens. (Really)
This is a trap that many people who are considering a non-theistic life fall into, staying in "God-mode" out of fear of some kind. (I'm not saying that all or even most God-believers do this, btw). They start to consider that maybe God isn't what they thought he was, or doesn't exist, but quail at the thought of no prayers, no afterlife, no vague comfort from his "presence". So they stick with at least a superficial faith in order to cling to the things that they think that they can't do without.Looking forward to something to look forward to in the long run? How about living a good life? How about being the best person that you can be, giving to others, leaving a legacy?
I personally have no idea whether there is an afterlife or not. Some of them look appealing, and intellectually lean toward one or two, but I live my life as if I am getting no second chance, no overtime in the sky, no eternal reward. I want to be satisfied when I draw my last breath that I did my best and was on balance a force for good. If there is something beyond that, well, I consider that a bonus.
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cman
What about the ones who can explain Oakspear.
Would it be in a fashion that you could hear and see?
What if it's not-
'entirely subjective and is influenced heavily by pre-conceived notions and tendencies'
What if what some experience really happened and happens?
And they didn't expect it or believe it themselves till in it?
Would it be possible that one could experience God inside and out.
Both subjectively and objectively.
In other words there would be no where to hide.
In a spiritual experience.
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vickles
Roy,
I so appreciate your honesty and love. You are a good person inside and out.
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waysider
Religion is a zoo!!
OK--- Now that I have your attention, I'll back up a step.
When I was just a little whippersnapper, I was quite fond of capturing all sorts of creatures and critters.
("Snakes and snails, and puppy dog tails--------------------------")
I would put them in a jar and watch their every move.
Kind of a miniature zoo of sorts.
Sometimes I would look at them through a magnifier.
I would watch the grasshoppers "spit tobacco".
I would look at them from every conceivable angle and sometimes even(GASP!) dissect them.
Still, I had no idea what made them "tick", so to speak.
In fact, the closer I studied them, the further I got from really understanding what their existence must be like outside the jar.
Yet, when you see them zigging and zagging their way through an open field you appreciate them in a sense that transcends mere words.
I think God is a bit like that.
We put Him in this little jar we call "religion" and try to understand the vast picture He represents.
Sometimes we look at Him through a magnifier.
We look at Him from all kinds of angles ,and yet, it takes us further away from appreciating Him.
Not understanding Him, mind you, just appreciating Him.
When you witness a baby take its' first breath or hold someones hand as they take their last, there is some sort of wordless message from God in those moments.
When you see the complexity with which the human body is constructed and the precision with which it functions, it just seems rather silly to think it all happened by chance.
Now, that's not to discount the reality of evolution.
Maybe evolution is a key component in the way the big scheme of things works.
I don't know.
But I think if you try to put God in some sort of jar, you miss the beauty of how he zig zags freely through the fields of life.
Well, that's my take on it, for what it's worth.
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year2027
God first
Beloved vickles
God loves you my dear friend
you are a "good person inside and out" too
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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T-Bone
I've been following this thread with interest but haven't had anything to contribute yet. Not that this is anything worth noting now, but I'm always intrigued by the dynamics of a person's belief system. I was re-reading Blaise Pascal's The Art of Persuasion today. A basic point he makes is that people usually arrive at their beliefs – not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive…IMHO there's something to that.
Well…what do you expect from someone who reasons from a weird hybrid of faith based/critical thinking process
…Just trying to be honest here…I like to think I'm logical about things – but figure a lot of times on philosophical issues, my criteria for acceptable proof is a matter of my own choosing – and that I'm not always aware of the driving force behind my choices.
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Oakspear
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cman
I'm not challenging your belief, but what you believe about others beliefs.
How do you determine what is , as you stated or what is really happening.
And would the explaining of a true experience be in a spiritual manner.
Speaking of spiritual experiences would require the tongue of the spirit.
And as you said about 'the interpretation' it would require the ears and eyes of the spirit.
There are plenty of examples.
But if one goes by the written word alone.
The spiritual ear and eye that is now will not hear, being as dead as the paper it's written on.
Relying on documents from years ago rather then what is moving now.
Comparing new and new would be better then comparing to what has already been done.
And not that it would eliminate the old but rather bring it to life new and now and living.
Should one decide that the ear and eyes of the spirit are not written in a book but lived.
Experiencing it's variables in unique ways,
discovering new things in the old that are done even now.
To hear and see in a new perspective isn't easy.
If as we were taught, that God is some force that is separate from us.
Then there would not be any subjective experiences at all.
It would all be external, still a separation of 'God' and man.
Which has never been true.
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