If we know both that some were greatly hurt and that others were greatly helped by TWI, that sets up quite a conflict IMO...therefore its hard to find too many people on either side willing to acknowledge the other side, or to mention the other side without de emphasizing it to the hilt.
Should we expect less of someone who claims to be the first spokeman of God's revealed Word in 1900 years than a doctor, dentist or other professional? In their fields it is called misconduct or malpractice and leads to disbarment and/or arrest. Pretty clear to me.
I have to agree with oldies on this one. A long long time ago when there was a far gentler TWI people got blessed by being there.
A lot of people got hurt at the same time.
For me I did a lot of reading the Bible and studying. I got out after just 4 years and went to where I thought a more correct/rightly divided word was taught.
People did come to know God thru TWI and for that reason I don't totally condem it.
Belle, you weren't around when TWI-1 was blessing folks bigtime.
Thousands of folks got involved because of the blessings of God. Not some. Thousands of folks.
I think God worked thru VPW, sins and all.
When VPW was walking in fellowship with God, he was a great blessing. When he was out of fellowship, he was a s.o.b and hurt folks.
I think that sums it up.
I would correct that, om ---- God was the source, working through various people, NOT some organization. Mistakes such as that led to the debacle that twi very quickly became. Why do you suppose you suffered what you did when you were told to take a hike from the kork program?? certainly not because twi was the source of so much "blessing", that is for DAMN** sure...
No, the freakin' ends do NOT justify the freakin' means!
Wierwille's abuse of women, plagiarism, lying, power plays, playing puppet master...and oh, did I mention ABUSE OF WOMEN was okay, because thousands of people "got blessed"?????
Just because some people received some good from their experience in TWI does the end justify the means? Just curious as to what y'all think about it.
What were the "ends" and what were the "means"? -->
The supposed "ends" of twi were to get people living the more than abundant life.
The supposed "means" were the classes, corps, wow, etc., etc.
The TRUE "ENDS" told a different story entirely; and
the TRUE "MEANS" were not found in classes, or in bible teaching -- but rather in (ahem! cough!) undershepharding (to put it *politely*) --> and extortion of folk's resources -- money-wise, time-wise, talent-wise, etc.
If you mean "Does the supposed "end" justify the supposed "means" --- I would have to say yes. Some good came out of it, because some never saw the:
Flip side of the coin. And that is the TRUE "END", made possible by the TRUE "MEANS", which had nothing to do with the Word or living the abundant life, and did have everything to do with avarice, deceit, and deception -- for personal gain of those calling the shots.
When it comes to the *true end and means* -- I'd have to say No.
Twi itself was always the same. There were things going on from the very beginning. Its a fallacy that everything was great and wonderful because of vpw and twi.
If you did see signs, miracles, and wonders it was not because of vpw or twi but because of God, if it actually was happening at all.
"Its a fallacy that everything was great and wonderful because of vpw and twi."
Do you mean "because of VPW and LCM, while within TWI"?
Or, are you saying that TWI separate from VPW's later problems and LCM was still a problem?
"If you did see signs, miracles, and wonders it was not because of vpw or twi but because of God, if it actually was happening at all."
Well it certainly did happen, it does happen and will continue to happen.
There is a great big wonderful world of Christianity out there, and many Ex-TWI-fers do remain in churches or in home fellowships, studying The Bible, still ministering to others, still worshipping G-d and doing His work... :-)
Galen, I'm not saying that signs, miracles and wonders did not happen just if it did. I know of some stories that just weren't true. But, I'm sure that others did happen.
I'm saying that twi 1 and vpw 1 was a fallacy. If you did see anything it was because of God and his Word not because of vpw and twi.
There were things going on from the beginning. Just that some didn't see it until later. You think that it changed over night? It was always there. Vpw was able to hide it better than lcm is all.
"There were things going on from the beginning. Just that some didn't see it until later. You think that it changed over night? It was always there. Vpw was able to hide it better than lcm is all."
I dont know. Having only been in TWI for such a short period of time [1979-1997], I have never met either VPW or LCM. I did 'see' LCM from a great distance at the one Rock of Ages that I attended. He appeared to the public at the evening services in the big circus tent. So I truly have no idea of how well either of them hid anything.
I guess I was just too focused on my career and minstering to others, to really pay it any attention. Sorry.
It's a fact that some were blessed and some were harmed: those who were harmed shouldn't resent those who were blessed and vice versa. To me, it's like finding out later that your first grade teacher was a pedophile who harmed some of the other kids in your class but not you. Yes, THIS was the guy who taught you how to add and subtract etc. which you still use today, but someone else WOULD have if that guy hadn't. We were taught that VP taught God's word like it hadn't been taught since the 1st century implying that nowhere else could we get this, but we would've been OK somewhere else too. Right now I can't fathom where I would've learned speaking in tongues, JC is not God, or dead are dead without TWI but I still would've been OK if God had anything to do with it.
I would like to follow your analogy through, johniam. If your first grade teacher turned out to be a pedophile, would you revere that teacher for teaching you to add and subtract, knowing that he used the ability to teach as a means to molest? Would you hold the organization in high esteem, even though many of its employees knew the teacher was molesting kids, but did nothing?
Or would you just heave a sigh of relief, that you got through without being hurt yourself?
"There were things going on from the beginning. Just that some didn't see it until later. You think that it changed over night? It was always there. Vpw was able to hide it better than lcm is all."
I dont know. Having only been in TWI for such a short period of time [1979-1997], I have never met either VPW or LCM. I did 'see' LCM from a great distance at the one Rock of Ages that I attended. He appeared to the public at the evening services in the big circus tent. So I truly have no idea of how well either of them hid anything.
I guess I was just too focused on my career and minstering to others, to really pay it any attention. Sorry.
so everybody else wasn't, Galen?? you a mind-reader?? you all-knowing, like God?? what is the point of your smart crack, then??
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bowtwi
Well hell, Belle - I'd have to say no. Since leaving twi I've found several churches that actually teach the Bible!
In my town some of the denominations join together on projects and special events. It's exciting to see the Body of Christ functioning together.
I think God would have been able to provide others to teach me what good I did get from twi - He's pretty powerful.
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Lifted Up
If we know both that some were greatly hurt and that others were greatly helped by TWI, that sets up quite a conflict IMO...therefore its hard to find too many people on either side willing to acknowledge the other side, or to mention the other side without de emphasizing it to the hilt.
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oldiesman
Belle, you weren't around when TWI-1 was blessing folks bigtime.
Thousands of folks got involved because of the blessings of God. Not some. Thousands of folks.
I think God worked thru VPW, sins and all.
When VPW was walking in fellowship with God, he was a great blessing. When he was out of fellowship, he was a s.o.b and hurt folks.
I think that sums it up.
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JustThinking
I would phrase it this way:
Should we expect less of someone who claims to be the first spokeman of God's revealed Word in 1900 years than a doctor, dentist or other professional? In their fields it is called misconduct or malpractice and leads to disbarment and/or arrest. Pretty clear to me.
JT
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ex70sHouston
I have to agree with oldies on this one. A long long time ago when there was a far gentler TWI people got blessed by being there.
A lot of people got hurt at the same time.
For me I did a lot of reading the Bible and studying. I got out after just 4 years and went to where I thought a more correct/rightly divided word was taught.
People did come to know God thru TWI and for that reason I don't totally condem it.
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alfakat
I would correct that, om ---- God was the source, working through various people, NOT some organization. Mistakes such as that led to the debacle that twi very quickly became. Why do you suppose you suffered what you did when you were told to take a hike from the kork program?? certainly not because twi was the source of so much "blessing", that is for DAMN** sure...
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excathedra
I was around when TWI-1 was f*cking with folks bigtime
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ex70sHouston
It really depended on where you were and if you had some corp nazi's or loving people over you.
The organization was such with its many levels of leadership that anyone above the little leaf was prone to get sr***ed.
No bussiness could ever of operated like twi and servived.
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excathedra
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skyrider
i think he was the 3-star general......wasn't he?
:D-->
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rascal
I had very bad things happen to me in twi 1. It is a myth that twi 1 was not harmfull. It was just better hidden.
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excathedra
5 star i think.... what does 5 represent ? what does 3 represent ? perhaps a 6 star
:)-->
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
you know.i think you are ALL right. i had some very wonderful things and feelings happen when i was involved with twi and also some very hurtful ones
verry hurtful... lost some wonderful friends{thank God they have forgiven me] and made some wonderful friends too.
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Oakspear
No, the freakin' ends do NOT justify the freakin' means!
Wierwille's abuse of women, plagiarism, lying, power plays, playing puppet master...and oh, did I mention ABUSE OF WOMEN was okay, because thousands of people "got blessed"?????
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dmiller
What were the "ends" and what were the "means"?
-->
The supposed "ends" of twi were to get people living the more than abundant life.
The supposed "means" were the classes, corps, wow, etc., etc.
The TRUE "ENDS" told a different story entirely; and
the TRUE "MEANS" were not found in classes, or in bible teaching -- but rather in (ahem! cough!) undershepharding (to put it *politely*)
--> and extortion of folk's resources -- money-wise, time-wise, talent-wise, etc.
If you mean "Does the supposed "end" justify the supposed "means" --- I would have to say yes. Some good came out of it, because some never saw the:
Flip side of the coin. And that is the TRUE "END", made possible by the TRUE "MEANS", which had nothing to do with the Word or living the abundant life, and did have everything to do with avarice, deceit, and deception -- for personal gain of those calling the shots.
When it comes to the *true end and means* -- I'd have to say No.
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vickles
Twi itself was always the same. There were things going on from the very beginning. Its a fallacy that everything was great and wonderful because of vpw and twi.
If you did see signs, miracles, and wonders it was not because of vpw or twi but because of God, if it actually was happening at all.
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Galen
vickles:
"Its a fallacy that everything was great and wonderful because of vpw and twi."
Do you mean "because of VPW and LCM, while within TWI"?
Or, are you saying that TWI separate from VPW's later problems and LCM was still a problem?
"If you did see signs, miracles, and wonders it was not because of vpw or twi but because of God, if it actually was happening at all."
Well it certainly did happen, it does happen and will continue to happen.
There is a great big wonderful world of Christianity out there, and many Ex-TWI-fers do remain in churches or in home fellowships, studying The Bible, still ministering to others, still worshipping G-d and doing His work... :-)
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vickles
Galen, I'm not saying that signs, miracles and wonders did not happen just if it did. I know of some stories that just weren't true. But, I'm sure that others did happen.
I'm saying that twi 1 and vpw 1 was a fallacy. If you did see anything it was because of God and his Word not because of vpw and twi.
There were things going on from the beginning. Just that some didn't see it until later. You think that it changed over night? It was always there. Vpw was able to hide it better than lcm is all.
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Galen
vickles:
"There were things going on from the beginning. Just that some didn't see it until later. You think that it changed over night? It was always there. Vpw was able to hide it better than lcm is all."
I dont know. Having only been in TWI for such a short period of time [1979-1997], I have never met either VPW or LCM. I did 'see' LCM from a great distance at the one Rock of Ages that I attended. He appeared to the public at the evening services in the big circus tent. So I truly have no idea of how well either of them hid anything.
I guess I was just too focused on my career and minstering to others, to really pay it any attention. Sorry.
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johniam
It's a fact that some were blessed and some were harmed: those who were harmed shouldn't resent those who were blessed and vice versa. To me, it's like finding out later that your first grade teacher was a pedophile who harmed some of the other kids in your class but not you. Yes, THIS was the guy who taught you how to add and subtract etc. which you still use today, but someone else WOULD have if that guy hadn't. We were taught that VP taught God's word like it hadn't been taught since the 1st century implying that nowhere else could we get this, but we would've been OK somewhere else too. Right now I can't fathom where I would've learned speaking in tongues, JC is not God, or dead are dead without TWI but I still would've been OK if God had anything to do with it.
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shazdancer
I would like to follow your analogy through, johniam. If your first grade teacher turned out to be a pedophile, would you revere that teacher for teaching you to add and subtract, knowing that he used the ability to teach as a means to molest? Would you hold the organization in high esteem, even though many of its employees knew the teacher was molesting kids, but did nothing?
Or would you just heave a sigh of relief, that you got through without being hurt yourself?
Regards,
Shaz
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rascal
Does the ends justify the means? NO! Not by a long shot.
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alfakat
so everybody else wasn't, Galen?? you a mind-reader?? you all-knowing, like God?? what is the point of your smart crack, then??
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Oakspear
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