Black Snowstorm

[skyrider]

Why was wierwille given a *free pass* on this "foundational claim?"

Without any witnesses or substantiated facts, this claim ("vision") has been passed from nightowl to nightowl....to Whiteside's book The Way: Living in Love and Mrs. Wierwille's book Born Again to Serve. An excerpt of wierwille's account is as follows:

After all this activity and reaching out to learn more, I must know to satisy my inner yearning. And so I stood in my newly rented office and prayed to the Father. "Father, teach me the Word, teach me the Word." He told me as plain as day that if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first century. And, of course, at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy. Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody will listen to me. The whole church will be blessed; my denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God." And I thought that was terrrific. But during the process of that revelation, I said, "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me? Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it, and I couldn't understand it, couldn't get it to fit.

And the sun was shining brightly. It was in the fall of the year. Gorgeous. There wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, "Well, if it'll just snow right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you.'" Cause you see. I'd never had much experience with God's talking to me. And this business of His saying to me, just as audibly as I am speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me. I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before. Oh, my ears were perhaps clogged up. Since that time I've heard a lot of things from Him.

And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes, and it was pitch-black, almost pitch-black outside, and the snow was falling so thick. I have never seen it fall that thick since that day.

And I sat in that little office, and I cried like a baby. Because I guess it was about my time to cry because I'd grown up but I didn't know the Word. And from that day on since He promised He'd teach me the Word, I have tried with all my heart to learn this Word.

A black snowstorm.......?????????????

:blink:

[cheranne]

Why was wierwille given a *free pass* on this "foundational claim?"

Without any witnesses or substantiated facts, this claim ("vision") has been passed from nightowl to nightowl....to Whiteside's book The Way: Living in Love and Mrs. Wierwille's book Born Again to Serve. An excerpt of wierwille's account is as follows:

After all this activity and reaching out to learn more, I must know to satisy my inner yearning. And so I stood in my newly rented office and prayed to the Father. "Father, teach me the Word, teach me the Word." He told me as plain as day that if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first century. And, of course, at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy. Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody will listen to me. The whole church will be blessed; my denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God." And I thought that was terrrific. But during the process of that revelation, I said, "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me? Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it, and I couldn't understand it, couldn't get it to fit.

And the sun was shining brightly. It was in the fall of the year. Gorgeous. There wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, "Well, if it'll just snow right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you.'" Cause you see. I'd never had much experience with God's talking to me. And this business of His saying to me, just as audibly as I am speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me. I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before. Oh, my ears were perhaps clogged up. Since that time I've heard a lot of things from Him.

And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes, and it was pitch-black, almost pitch-black outside, and the snow was falling so thick. I have never seen it fall that thick since that day.

And I sat in that little office, and I cried like a baby. Because I guess it was about my time to cry because I'd grown up but I didn't know the Word. And from that day on since He promised He'd teach me the Word, I have tried with all my heart to learn this Word.

A black snowstorm.......?????????????

:blink:

i know ! He should have gotten do not pass,do not collect 200 dollars,and go straight to hell(i mean jail)

[WordWolf]

I didn't hear anything about a BLACK snowstorm until sometime into discussions of Mrs W's book.

I'd heard of a miraculous snowstorm, but never that a colour was mentioned.

Since snowstorms are only 1 colour, I didn't think to ask.

Even a heavy blizzard looks WHITE.

And the worst snow conditions are called "WHITE-OUT".

Maybe this wasn't circulated where I heard it because I might have said

"wait a minute", and had an "AHA" moment over twi.

Remember, he wasn't a genius, but as a marketer and a con-man, he did an incredible

job- he adjusted his "advertisements" so the average "customer" wouldn't doubt the "product."

[Linda Z]

Hi guys. I have no idea whether he saw a snowsotrm or not, but I think you're sidetracking yourselves.

Have you never seen a blizzard when it's pitch black outside? Of course this isn't referring to the color of the snow, but the color of the sky.

[WhiteDove]

Exactly! Speaking of PFAL.........Another case of not reading what is written, seems some of us need a repeat after all.

." And I opened my eyes, and it was pitch-black, almost pitch-black outside, and the snow was falling so thick. I have never seen it fall that thick since that day

Never said the snow was black, only the outside. It never ceases to amaze me the grasping at straws and straining of words to try to make a case.

[rhino]

Well ... straining at gnats can be fun ...

of course it is talking about the sky, not black flakes. But was this daytime? We don't know here, but what does he say in piffle? This needs research. ...

Oh wait, it says ... "And the sun was shining brightly. It was in the fall of the year. Gorgeous." Well, it was his vision, so he can have a black sky in his brain if he wants. But a pitch black sky during mid day? I guess God could make it pitch black, but still make the snow visible some how.

Edited January 29, 2008 by rhino

[tonto]

Well, technically, there's the element of time.

From the time he said the sun was shining brightly, not a cloud in the sky to the time he opened his eyes and saw it was pitch-black, I think I must have figured that he had his eyes closed in fervent prayer for quite a while.

These days, knowing what I know about his heavy drinking and general all-around lack character, I put his snow-storm right up there with his invention of the hook-shot.

[copenhagen]

Do not forget McDonalds.

Doc Vic also laid claim to know how to invent oil..

The things we bought from the way is crazy.

Side note any New Yorkers ever get an offer to buy a bridge from a limb cord.

copenhagen

[rhino]

VP told us what he really wanted ...

nd, of course, at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy. Boy, if I learned this Word of God,

everybody will listen to me

.

The same type of motivation for saying he invented the hook shot.

Well, he did get a lot of attention, but believing it was pitch black in daylight seems less about straining at a gnat and more about swallowing a camel.

[skyrider]

You beat me to it, Rhino & Tonto. Thanks.

Exactly! Speaking of PFAL.........Another case of not reading what is written, seems some of us need a repeat after all.

." And I opened my eyes, and it was pitch-black, almost pitch-black outside, and the snow was falling so thick. I have never seen it fall that thick since that day

Never said the snow was black, only the outside. It never ceases to amaze me the grasping at straws and straining of words to try to make a case.

WD..........CONTEXT, man........read it in CONTEXT......in the verse, in context or used before.........REMEMBER?

And the sun was shining brightly. It was in the fall of the year. Gorgeous. There wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, "Well, if it'll just snow right now, .....

Read this real s--l--o--w--l--y...........if need be.

And the sun was SHINING BRIGHTLY........blah, blah, blah.........snow RIGHT NOW.

Now..........what is YOUR interpretation of THAT sequence....???

Edited January 29, 2008 by skyrider

[doojable]

I"m just gonna' chime in here and say that I think this is a case of the myth growing with time.

I remember only the "snow on a sunny day" incident from The Way Living in Love (though I never owned the book, it's how I always heard it quoted.)

The in a later account Mrs. W talks about the sky being black...

No matter dark the sky is with clouds, a snowstorm is WHITE. As I recall, the snow reflects whatever light there is and makes it very, very bright.

Then there were the gaspumps...why did that fascinate us so?

Nearly 20 years later... seems to me it's all just another grim fairy tale.

Edited January 29, 2008 by doojable

[Linda Z]

Like I said, I have no idea if VP saw snow or didn't. He couldn't prove he did even if he were still alive, and no one could prove he didn't, since the incident was supposed to have taken place about 65 years ago. We can voice our suspicions about what really happened, but it's an unverifiable incident/nonincident. You can't even prove it from the weather reports, if what he was describing was supposed to be some sort of vision, seen only by him.

Another point about the pitch-black sky, SKyrider: You're comparing an incident VPW talked about back in the 60s with the same incident as Mrs. Wierwille recalled it (or his telling of it) some 60 years later. I don't think I'd count on her book's being 100% accurate. I'm not saying she lied, just that memories get pretty fuzzy after 60+ years. It is also quite possibe she was in the early stages of Alzheimer's disease when she "wrote" that book. (I'd guaran-darn-tee you she didn't write it. Most likely she recorded it, someone transcribed it, and Way Pub edited the hell out of it to sanitize anything that might seem less than favorable re: twi.)

It frankly doesn't matter to me whether VPW saw snow or a Sno-Cone or neither. I just think basing anything on a book ghost-written for an elderly woman decades after many of the events in the book took place, isn't going to give you a very solid foundation for the facts.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Linda Z

[skyrider]

Like I said, I have no idea if VP saw snow or didn't. He couldn't prove he did even if he were still alive, and no one could prove he didn't, since the incident was supposed to have taken place about 65 years ago. We can voice our suspicions about what really happened, but it's an unverifiable incident/nonincident. You can't even prove it from the weather reports, if what he was describing was supposed to be some sort of vision, seen only by him.

Another point about the pitch-black sky, SKyrider: You're comparing an incident VPW talked about back in the 60s with the same incident as Mrs. Wierwille recalled it (or his telling of it) some 60 years later. I don't think I'd count on her book's being 100% accurate. I'm not saying she lied, just that memories get pretty fuzzy after 60+ years. It is also quite possibe she was in the early stages of Alzheimer's disease when she "wrote" that book. (I'd guaran-darn-tee you she didn't write it. Most likely she recorded it, someone transcribed it, and Way Pub edited the hell out of it to sanitize anything that might seem less than favorable re: twi.)

It frankly doesn't matter to me whether VPW saw snow or a Sno-Cone or neither. I just think basing anything on a book ghost-written for an elderly woman decades after many of the events in the book took place, isn't going to give you a very solid foundation for the facts.

Linda,

Mrs. Wierwille AND Karen poured over HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of the twi-historical records to bring this "latest and greatest documented biography" of vpw to the FAITHFUL HOUSEHOLD.

I really don't care much either way........BUT to talk about the SUN SHINING BRIGHTLY and then (right now).... THE SKY IS PITCH BLACK, THEN HOW COULD HE KNOW IF IT WAS SNOWING??

Whatever......??

IMO.......wierwille FABRICATED THIS "PHENOMENON" to launch his mog status and stand at the top of his pyramid scheme/ministry........except wierwille mis-spoke of the snowstorm and claimed it was "pitch black." The "phenomenon" was the supposed-instantaneous snow storm....NOT the color of the sky.

..............not quite on par with a burning bush or anything, but an "instantaneous black snowstorm/sky" will do.....??

:blink:

Edited January 29, 2008 by skyrider

[waysider]

Suppose for a moment that VP really had this experience.

If so, is it possible he was supposed to notice(first and foremost) that the sky was pitch black and not that it was snowing?

I mean, he based the meaning of this event on his own interpretation.

------Food for thought-------

Furthermore, he supposedly initiated the event by telling God to give him a sign.

This is a practice he himself taught was clearly un-Biblical and "unavailable".

I don't remember if it was in the AC (or where it was) but he taught that the "dew on the fleece"(Judges, chapter 6) was an exception to the way it is supposed to work and that we can't tell God to give us a sign.

So----Whether it was "revelation" or a fabrication, I don't know, but I do know it does not coincide with how he taught revelation is supposed to work.

[excathedra]

i don't really care about snowstorms

i just know he was a mean man

[WordWolf]

If snow is on the ground, the ground will be white with reflected light.

If the snow is in the air, the air will be white with reflected light.

If snow is in the air AND on the ground, the area will be bright with reflected light.

Even if there's no electrical sources of light, the area will be lit with reflected light.

I've gone camping in the winter. With snow on the ground, no snow in the air,

and no lights on. Late at night, it was still very bright.

I noted this, because it meant that practical jokers could not sneak around.

(Someone later recommended WHITE camouflage for snow, because, even

at night, that's more effective than trying to keep to shadows that aren't there.)

So, if he made the claim that there was "pitch-black" and heavy snow (and he saw

heavier snow than he'd ever seen at any other time by his 40s/50s),

I find that unsupportable.

If the sky was heavily clouded, but the air was carrying snow, the white snow EVERYWHERE

would make the sky look a LOT brighter.

======

As to any of this actually having been actually seen by vpw

(that is, that he actually saw physical snow, or actually saw a real vision),

we can test this without having been there.

See, he claimed this was given as PROOF he'd heard from God.

Therefore, if we test the promise he claimed was from God, and it's an invalid

promise, or it is not delivered, then we can dismiss the snowstorm-

since it was "proof" of something that didn't happen.

This supposed promise:

He (God) would teach him (Victor) His Word (God's Word)

like it had not been known since the 1st century,

if he (Victor) would teach it to others.

(This is the famous 1942 promise.)

BTW, he NEVER told anyone this promise IN 1942-he started telling them in the

early 1970s- Mrs W herself said he first told it to the early corps, and that means

the early 1970s.

Looking at the claim,

the claim was that God would teach vpw God's Word like it hadn't been known

since the First Century", which is a claim that is dependent upon the hearer being as

ignorant of "First Century" history as vpw was and presumed his hearers to be.

In the First Century AD- before Gutenberg invented his printing press-

God's Word as known was the Torah- the Old Testament.

It wasn't until the SECOND Century AD that enough handwritten copies of the

New Testament Gospels, Letters, Acts and Revelation were distributed for Christians

to "know" them. What vpw taught didn't reflect their lack of copies of the New

Testament. Either he invented that claim, or the promise came from an ignorant god.

vpw didn't teach the First Century church in ACTION.

REALLY look at Acts sometime.

They were SHORT on documentation. REALLY short on books.

There was a lot of prayer, considerable deliverance, and a level of NORMAL miracles

everyday such that the SPECIAL miracles with Paul went beyond them.

Authority was de-centralized, money was distributed among the poor as they

had need, everything was local, nothing was official, the few "leaders" travelled,

dealt with things in a "hands-on" fashion, and lived simply.

Compare that to twi.

HEAVY on reading, reading, reading. Deliverance levels painfully shy of Acts.

Authority was all concentrated to vpw, money funnelled to vpw- even when he had

to trash the Way East and Way West and stop local use of cash to do it.

LITTLE was local, EVERYTHING was official, the "leaders" stay in one spot

and enjoy their luxuries as you travel to them on your dime, and their

involvement is anything but personal- just a handful of verses, and some

micro-management.

Finally,

the supposed promise was predicated on the concept that there was information

that was UNKNOWN from 101 AD- 1943, and God Almighty would supply

that information to vpw.

Few people who've been at the GSC awhile can't trace the sources of vpw's

information. Some came from BG Leonard and his class, some came from

JE Stiles, his book and his direct teaching, some came from EW Bullinger's

books, some came from EW Kenyon and his books.

(If you used your initials, vpw would plagiarize freely from you.)

EVERYTHING HE TAUGHT WAS ALREADY KNOWN AS OF 1943.

So, this supposed "god" who promised him this should have known better.

Taking all this into consideration,

the promise vpw claimed he was given was a complete sham.

Either vpw was given a promise by an ignorant god,

or he was given a promise by a lying devil and couldn't tell the difference,

or vpw made the whole thing up.

Therefore, either the snowstorm came from an ignorant god, or it came from a devil,

or it never happened and vpw made it up.

[skyrider]

So, if he made the claim that there was "pitch-black" and heavy snow (and he saw

heavier snow than he'd ever seen at any other time by his 40s/50s),

I find that unsupportable.

<snip>

BTW, he NEVER told anyone this promise IN 1942-he started telling them in the

early 1970s- Mrs W herself said he first told it to the early corps, and that means

the early 1970s.

Speaking of unsupportable........this is NOT the only "unsupportable" snow storm in wierwille's history of God-intervening claims. Didn't wierwille claim that he couldn't leave a Tulsa convention in 1951and head home because "all flights were cancelled" at the Tulsa airport?

Then, as a result of NOT leaving (because of this snow storm)........someone was there in Tulsa who led him into speaking in tongues?? Anyways........just sorta interesting about these "snow storms."

Oh......I should add, that when B@rrie H1ll from the 7th Corps spent months wanting to document this information......she found discrepancies at every turn....???

Edited January 30, 2008 by skyrider

[skyrider]

BUMP......

With all the snow, this thread needs revisiting.

[waysider]

I used to believe The Tooth Fairy left money under my pillow.

[Ham]

Did anybody else see this snow?

[Ham]

"And the sun was shining brightly. It was in the fall of the year. Gorgeous."

another thought.. how many men would use that word to describe a day? Gorgeous, that is..

it just kinda sounds funny..

might use that word to describe the person interviewing me at the time, perhaps..

[Ham]

Since that time I've heard a lot of things from Him.

Interesting.. one psychotic episode.. and the floodgates open..

[waysider]

Did anybody else see this snow?

Seems to me that we looked up the weather data for that particular time and place on another thread. If I remember correctly, not only did it not snow that day, it never snowed that entire month.

[Ham]

That does not leave very many options, does it?

he was at his wits end by his own admission..

[Ham]

I've seen some pretty wild things.. but I would not exactly cite them to bolster the reputation of my opinion of god, the bible, and the universe..