Okay then Oakspear, fair enough. And so, maybe it seems unfair for people to allow their minds to "run rampant like a pack of dogs turned loose on the game", when they don't know anything about young VPWs motives, Greek word not even used. .
Sure I can agree that it would be helpful, but not necessarily mandatory. No doubt, if you think about it, folks willing to be a part of this program probably are already affiliated with the young man running the program. At another site, he said that he had done a fellow laborers program with CFF, and no doubt the majority of participants will come from that body of believers, hence the lack of a necessity for a list of credentials. And by the way (no pun intended), I will now "paste" that which I just read at the SOWERS website:
For details or admissions information please contact
Victor Wierwille at victorpaul38@aol.com
And so, no doubt MORE INFORMATION can be found there. However, one could e-mail and simply ask instead of speculate, ya know?
And so folks, I can see this one heating up, and I have said my piece on it already. Peace be unto you, and may young Wierwille keep his heart pure before the Lord. If not, I'll leave it to God...
Oh, and here is JP and his sons from that other site. Oops, looks like I failed to post the pic. Anybody else want to try? Looks alot like 'ol VP don't he? And the boys are fine and handsome! Hope it all works out...
Are you going to sign up for SO*ERs? I understand what your saying that we shouldn't assume the guy has a bad heart-he may very well have good intentions. But on the other hand, you don't really know much about it yourself. Maybe you don't realise this but you kind of sound like you're promoting it. Do you want to take on that kind of responsibility? What if you do inadvertantly encourage someone before you understand it yourself?
Okay then Oakspear, fair enough. And so, maybe it seems unfair for people to allow their minds to "run rampant like a pack of dogs turned loose on the game", when they don't know anything about young VPWs motives, Greek word not even used. .
Sure I can agree that it would be helpful, but not necessarily mandatory. No doubt, if you think about it, folks willing to be a part of this program probably are already affiliated with the young man running the program. At another site, he said that he had done a fellow laborers program with CFF, and no doubt the majority of participants will come from that body of believers, hence the lack of a necessity for a list of credentials. And by the way (no pun intended), I will now "paste" that which I just read at the SOWERS website:
For details or admissions information please contact
Victor Wierwille at victorpaul38@aol.com
And so, no doubt MORE INFORMATION can be found there. However, one could e-mail and simply ask instead of speculate, ya know?
And so folks, I can see this one heating up, and I have said my piece on it already. Peace be unto you, and may young Wierwille keep his heart pure before the Lord. If not, I'll leave it to God...
Oh, and here is JP and his sons from that other site. Oops, looks like I failed to post the pic. Anybody else want to try? Looks alot like 'ol VP don't he? And the boys are fine and handsome! Hope it all works out...
Are you going to sign up for SO*ERs? I understand what your saying that we shouldn't assume the guy has a bad heart-he may very well have good intentions. But on the other hand, you don't really know much about it yourself. Maybe you don't realise this but you kind of sound like you're promoting it. Do you want to take on that kind of responsibility? What if you do inadvertantly encourage someone before you understand it yourself?
Are you going to sign up for SO*ERs? I understand what your saying that we shouldn't assume the guy has a bad heart-he may very well have good intentions. But on the other hand, you don't really know much about it yourself. Maybe you don't realise this but you kind of sound like you're promoting it. Do you want to take on that kind of responsibility? What if you do inadvertantly encourage someone before you understand it yourself?
Yer killin me HH, yer killin me! Of course I am not going to "sign up". Been there and done all that! And if giving someone the benefit of the doubt makes me seem like I am "promoting it", then you just go right ahead on and think that all you want! Man o' Manischewitz!, this place really IS seeming more and more like a paranoid looney bin as the days go by! And, (said in a whisper);
"Pssst! Happy Heart, if someone "goes there", it will be a self made decision just like the ones we all made when we were with The Way. An American Right, ya know...."
I really find this interesting (read "laughably absurd").
If you read the ENTIRE site, nowhere does it give even a hint of what the participants will be doing or learning (- well - other than it looks like you're going to be expected to stack some dweeb's firewood for him - oooo, won't that be a learning experience).
What would possibly move you to think that this will be an "awesome" experience? If they've put as much thought into their program as they have their website, well, I wouldn't be expecting much.
If you read the ENTIRE site, nowhere does it give even a hint of what the participants will be doing or learning
What would possibly move you to think that this will be an "awesome" experience? If they've put as much thought into their program as they have their website, well, I wouldn't be expecting much.
I agree...there's no curriculum, not an inkling of what to expect...you shouldn't have to email for details in order to find out what it is that you are asking for details about.
And then there's this little gem from the home page of the website:
"If you are unable to do things that are outside of your comfort zone, then this is not for you." :blink: :(
I thought that statement was awesome. They seem to be saying right up front that the participant will be very busy and therefore the experience is not for lazy people whose comfort zone will be challenged.
OKCity, I'm sorry I misunderstood your time line when I read the original post. Thanks for clearing that up. Sounds like you did what you could with the information. I was just wondering, not attacking. Believe me if the shark decides to attack you will know it and this is not what I am doing right now.
In fact this whole idea that you have brought up about "revelation" or something similar has me thinking about the whole "profit" angle that vp taught. If (and that is a big IF) vp was correct that revelation is given when there is profit then is it safe to assume that the profit could be for the individual and who they may personally touch in their lives? As an alternative not opposed to the thought that the profit was only for the entire body or for the sole purpose of changing the outcome of the vision. You may recall that vp gave the example of J. D!xon when she got the vision that Kenn@dy would be shot. He said that she got the information from ds because she chouldnt do anything to stop it. I dont know if I believe all that stuff now but you get the idea of where I'm coming from.
So what's all this got to do with the orginal topic? I dont know, it was just a question.
Waysider, I have never for one second disbelieved you when you related what you saw. That it was a vision and not actually physically seeing the man do these things made no difference to me. I actually physically saw him do something that to me was far worse than giving me the bird but it amounted to the same thing. I did what you did, I told someone and consequently was told to renew my mind. I totally relate to your acceptance of what they told you was correct over what you knew was correct. That's what I did, but I never forgot what I had seen. I just disregarded it.
I just love how you got into the manifestations, so natural and comfortable. I think that is how it is supposed to happen. Somehow I just cant picture Paul running a class to get people (those who can) to SIT.
As for the young VP, I have read the site and his personal page at "that other site". He sounds like he really wants to help people. If some of you have some advice to give him I think he would listen if it wasnt laced with arsenic. Remember he only bears his grandfather's name...
OKCity, I'm sorry I misunderstood your time line when I read the original post. Thanks for clearing that up. Sounds like you did what you could with the information. I was just wondering, not attacking. Believe me if the shark decides to attack you will know it and this is not what I am doing right now.
In fact this whole idea that you have brought up about "revelation" or something similar has me thinking about the whole "profit" angle that vp taught. If (and that is a big IF) vp was correct that revelation is given when there is profit then is it safe to assume that the profit could be for the individual and who they may personally touch in their lives? As an alternative not opposed to the thought that the profit was only for the entire body or for the sole purpose of changing the outcome of the vision. You may recall that vp gave the example of J. D!xon when she got the vision that Kenn@dy would be shot. He said that she got the information from ds because she chouldnt do anything to stop it. I dont know if I believe all that stuff now but you get the idea of where I'm coming from.
So what's all this got to do with the orginal topic? I dont know, it was just a question.
Waysider, I have never for one second disbelieved you when you related what you saw. That it was a vision and not actually physically seeing the man do these things made no difference to me. I actually physically saw him do something that to me was far worse than giving me the bird but it amounted to the same thing. I did what you did, I told someone and consequently was told to renew my mind. I totally relate to your acceptance of what they told you was correct over what you knew was correct. That's what I did, but I never forgot what I had seen. I just disregarded it.
I just love how you got into the manifestations, so natural and comfortable. I think that is how it is supposed to happen. Somehow I just cant picture Paul running a class to get people (those who can) to SIT.
As for the young VP, I have read the site and his personal page at "that other site". He sounds like he really wants to help people. If some of you have some advice to give him I think he would listen if it wasnt laced with arsenic. Remember he only bears his grandfather's name...
EYESOPEN hey i was just trying to let people know if they had a similar experiance it is not uncommon,and anyone can get 'A REVELATION" you don't have to be in twi or a whatever,thats just human. At the time i was working things out and i believe in this FLASHBACK i saw vpw as he really was.
Okay then Oakspear, fair enough. And so, maybe it seems unfair for people to allow their minds to "run rampant like a pack of dogs turned loose on the game", when they don't know anything about young VPWs motives, Greek word not even used. .
Response Part 1:
I disagree that that's what people are doing. You posted a link. People are expressing opinions about what was visible on that link. I personally agree with some and diagree with other observations. VPW II is making statements on his site that are very similar, and in some instances identical to what some of us perceived as a very negative organization. Why wouldn't they make the connection? It just makes sense. Young Wierwille (what, is he in his late 20's?) obviously agrees with some of what grandpa taught, some of think that that alone is grounds for suspicion.
Response Part 2:
I brought up the statement about epiluo because it is a good example of what I view as Waybrain. I'm not trying to be insulting here, I'm guilty of it as well. In my view, Waybrain is repeating some TWI slogan, jargon or unsupported doctrine without underlying understanding. Even using the phrase "run rampant like a pack of dogs turned loose on the game" betrays a TWI mindset. Do hunting dogs indeed "run rampant", or are they trained animals that do what their masters train them to do. You're using TWI jargon that is based on error and misunderstanding. The "problem" in that verse is not epilusis, but idios. Epilusis refers not to the dogs upon the game, or their running, or anything else about them other than their being "loosed" from their restraints. It's pretty obvious in How to Enjoy the Bible, but Wierwille just as clearly musiunderstands Bullinger's meaning.
I'm not trying to pick on you here, but this illustration from PFAL is one of my pet peeves; it's a prime example of Wierwille's inability or refusal to understand those he "learned" from, as well as an example of how Wierwile's successors taught Wierwille's analogies, rather than the bible that the analogies illustrated.
"run rampant like a pack of dogs turned loose on the game"
And here is what you said about that:
Even using the phrase "run rampant like a pack of dogs turned loose on the game" betrays a TWI mindset. Do hunting dogs indeed "run rampant", or are they trained animals that do what their masters train them to do.
Since you are being nit picky about your pet peeves, I guess I'll notify you, since didn't correctly read what I wrote, that I never said a word about "hunting" dogs. However, if I were referring to "hunting dogs", I would have said "deer hunting dogs", or "coon hunting dogs", which are in fact turned loose to pursue and drive the deer into the hunter for a shot, or tree the coon for the hunter, a type of hunting I never respected by the way. And if things don't work out correctly, the dogs will gang up and kill the quarry. In my mind all of these years, I have thought of that illustration as a bunch of untrained dogs filled with blood lust running a scared deer to death, until it can run no more, and then pouncing on it like a pack of wolves and viciously ripping it to shreds. So, leaving that illustration aside, even though I think it an excellent illustration, regardless of your opinion of it, I'll put it yet another way:
It seems to me that certain people here want to let their "tongues" (words I guess, for we are typing) run rampant with unfounded accusations and snide comments about someone they do not know. Now, is that stated good enough for you and clear of any "Waybrain-isms"? Call it whatever you want dude, I don't really give a rats azz. As for me, I think I'll prefer Eyes Open's opinion on the matter, and my own, and not the opinions others here have expressed concerning dis guy. I was judged when I was in The Way all of the damned time, and the facts were never asked for nor considered in situations, because the "overseers" had already "spiritually discerned" what was "really" going on, and I'll be damned if I am going to start doing that same thing now to other Fellow Human Beings whom I do not know and have no way of knowing what their motives may be.
No, it wasn't a hoax Excathedra, I just pointed out that VPWs grandson VPW has started what appears to be some sort of fellow laborers kind of a program...
P.S.
The sheep are the participants, and the logs represent the devil who crushes them all with fire. Yeah, that's the ticket!
I'll be damned if I am going to start doing that same thing now to other Fellow Human Beings whom I do not know and have no way of knowing what their motives may be.
well, all one has to do is ask, mustn't one?
:)
The only thing I'll say.. it is TOO DAMED BAD that "some of us" leave that unexplained. The motive, that is.
All I have is my friggin knee jerk reaction to this kind of thing..
and a real bitter feeling in the pit of my stomach..
see.. it's not up to me to explain why I feel this way. It's just not an "unrenewed mind" or anything.
I'd go to the source. "Why do I feel this way about your little endeavor.."
It better not be an answer like.. "well, you're justa thinkin evil or somethin".
Now lynn and crowd.. they've already ruined themselves to the place I wouldn't even BOTHER going to them for an explanation..
why do I have to go hunt people down to find out their friggin motive..
&*($^&*..
You don't have to hunt them down to find out their motive. You can say anything you want to in a public forum without knowing anything about them! Just to me, personally, were I to say anything negative about someone, I'd rather have the facts first, that's all. But that's just me...
when's they guy gonna jump out from behind the bushes.. "boo.. April Fool! Nyuk nyuk, I'm not REALLY trying to perpeptuate a blood and life sucking cult.."
Then I looked at the calender.. heck, it's not even February yet..
there is NOTHING on that site to indicate anything different from what I initially thought..
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happyheart
So Mr. Lingo,
Are you going to sign up for SO*ERs? I understand what your saying that we shouldn't assume the guy has a bad heart-he may very well have good intentions. But on the other hand, you don't really know much about it yourself. Maybe you don't realise this but you kind of sound like you're promoting it. Do you want to take on that kind of responsibility? What if you do inadvertantly encourage someone before you understand it yourself?
So Mr. Lingo,
Are you going to sign up for SO*ERs? I understand what your saying that we shouldn't assume the guy has a bad heart-he may very well have good intentions. But on the other hand, you don't really know much about it yourself. Maybe you don't realise this but you kind of sound like you're promoting it. Do you want to take on that kind of responsibility? What if you do inadvertantly encourage someone before you understand it yourself?
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J0nny Ling0
"Pssst! Happy Heart, if someone "goes there", it will be a self made decision just like the ones we all made when we were with The Way. An American Right, ya know...."
And so Mr. Hamm, what did they say?
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oldiesman
Awesome! Except for no pets. I like pets.
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George Aar
I really find this interesting (read "laughably absurd").
If you read the ENTIRE site, nowhere does it give even a hint of what the participants will be doing or learning (- well - other than it looks like you're going to be expected to stack some dweeb's firewood for him - oooo, won't that be a learning experience).
What would possibly move you to think that this will be an "awesome" experience? If they've put as much thought into their program as they have their website, well, I wouldn't be expecting much.
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2fortheroad
I agree...there's no curriculum, not an inkling of what to expect...you shouldn't have to email for details in order to find out what it is that you are asking for details about.
And then there's this little gem from the home page of the website:
"If you are unable to do things that are outside of your comfort zone, then this is not for you." :blink: :(
WTF??? Sounds like a major red flag to me...
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oldiesman
I thought that statement was awesome. They seem to be saying right up front that the participant will be very busy and therefore the experience is not for lazy people whose comfort zone will be challenged.
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Eyesopen
OKCity, I'm sorry I misunderstood your time line when I read the original post. Thanks for clearing that up. Sounds like you did what you could with the information. I was just wondering, not attacking. Believe me if the shark decides to attack you will know it and this is not what I am doing right now.
In fact this whole idea that you have brought up about "revelation" or something similar has me thinking about the whole "profit" angle that vp taught. If (and that is a big IF) vp was correct that revelation is given when there is profit then is it safe to assume that the profit could be for the individual and who they may personally touch in their lives? As an alternative not opposed to the thought that the profit was only for the entire body or for the sole purpose of changing the outcome of the vision. You may recall that vp gave the example of J. D!xon when she got the vision that Kenn@dy would be shot. He said that she got the information from ds because she chouldnt do anything to stop it. I dont know if I believe all that stuff now but you get the idea of where I'm coming from.
So what's all this got to do with the orginal topic? I dont know, it was just a question.
Waysider, I have never for one second disbelieved you when you related what you saw. That it was a vision and not actually physically seeing the man do these things made no difference to me. I actually physically saw him do something that to me was far worse than giving me the bird but it amounted to the same thing. I did what you did, I told someone and consequently was told to renew my mind. I totally relate to your acceptance of what they told you was correct over what you knew was correct. That's what I did, but I never forgot what I had seen. I just disregarded it.
I just love how you got into the manifestations, so natural and comfortable. I think that is how it is supposed to happen. Somehow I just cant picture Paul running a class to get people (those who can) to SIT.
As for the young VP, I have read the site and his personal page at "that other site". He sounds like he really wants to help people. If some of you have some advice to give him I think he would listen if it wasnt laced with arsenic. Remember he only bears his grandfather's name...
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cheranne
EYESOPEN hey i was just trying to let people know if they had a similar experiance it is not uncommon,and anyone can get 'A REVELATION" you don't have to be in twi or a whatever,thats just human. At the time i was working things out and i believe in this FLASHBACK i saw vpw as he really was.
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Oakspear
Response Part 1:
I disagree that that's what people are doing. You posted a link. People are expressing opinions about what was visible on that link. I personally agree with some and diagree with other observations. VPW II is making statements on his site that are very similar, and in some instances identical to what some of us perceived as a very negative organization. Why wouldn't they make the connection? It just makes sense. Young Wierwille (what, is he in his late 20's?) obviously agrees with some of what grandpa taught, some of think that that alone is grounds for suspicion.
Response Part 2:
I brought up the statement about epiluo because it is a good example of what I view as Waybrain. I'm not trying to be insulting here, I'm guilty of it as well. In my view, Waybrain is repeating some TWI slogan, jargon or unsupported doctrine without underlying understanding. Even using the phrase "run rampant like a pack of dogs turned loose on the game" betrays a TWI mindset. Do hunting dogs indeed "run rampant", or are they trained animals that do what their masters train them to do. You're using TWI jargon that is based on error and misunderstanding. The "problem" in that verse is not epilusis, but idios. Epilusis refers not to the dogs upon the game, or their running, or anything else about them other than their being "loosed" from their restraints. It's pretty obvious in How to Enjoy the Bible, but Wierwille just as clearly musiunderstands Bullinger's meaning.
I'm not trying to pick on you here, but this illustration from PFAL is one of my pet peeves; it's a prime example of Wierwille's inability or refusal to understand those he "learned" from, as well as an example of how Wierwile's successors taught Wierwille's analogies, rather than the bible that the analogies illustrated.
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Ham
guess one can't be perfect on all points..
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Ham
I wonder if they got the idea from my little write up..
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...+good+men+women
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Eyesopen
Well if it all goes to he!! in a hand basket we will know which hunting season is open...
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J0nny Ling0
Oakspear, here is my quote from that post:
And here is what you said about that:Since you are being nit picky about your pet peeves, I guess I'll notify you, since didn't correctly read what I wrote, that I never said a word about "hunting" dogs. However, if I were referring to "hunting dogs", I would have said "deer hunting dogs", or "coon hunting dogs", which are in fact turned loose to pursue and drive the deer into the hunter for a shot, or tree the coon for the hunter, a type of hunting I never respected by the way. And if things don't work out correctly, the dogs will gang up and kill the quarry. In my mind all of these years, I have thought of that illustration as a bunch of untrained dogs filled with blood lust running a scared deer to death, until it can run no more, and then pouncing on it like a pack of wolves and viciously ripping it to shreds. So, leaving that illustration aside, even though I think it an excellent illustration, regardless of your opinion of it, I'll put it yet another way:
It seems to me that certain people here want to let their "tongues" (words I guess, for we are typing) run rampant with unfounded accusations and snide comments about someone they do not know. Now, is that stated good enough for you and clear of any "Waybrain-isms"? Call it whatever you want dude, I don't really give a rats azz. As for me, I think I'll prefer Eyes Open's opinion on the matter, and my own, and not the opinions others here have expressed concerning dis guy. I was judged when I was in The Way all of the damned time, and the facts were never asked for nor considered in situations, because the "overseers" had already "spiritually discerned" what was "really" going on, and I'll be damned if I am going to start doing that same thing now to other Fellow Human Beings whom I do not know and have no way of knowing what their motives may be.
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excathedra
as usual, i can't get through a whole thread
what in the heck ?
i only saw a bunch of sheep and logs
what was this all about ?????
jonny did you do a hoax ? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ps. if i ever hear someone's heart was in the right place again, i think i'll scream
however, mind was, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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J0nny Ling0
No, it wasn't a hoax Excathedra, I just pointed out that VPWs grandson VPW has started what appears to be some sort of fellow laborers kind of a program...
P.S.
The sheep are the participants, and the logs represent the devil who crushes them all with fire. Yeah, that's the ticket!
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excathedra
oh ok thanks
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Ham
well, all one has to do is ask, mustn't one?
:)
The only thing I'll say.. it is TOO DAMED BAD that "some of us" leave that unexplained. The motive, that is.
All I have is my friggin knee jerk reaction to this kind of thing..
and a real bitter feeling in the pit of my stomach..
see.. it's not up to me to explain why I feel this way. It's just not an "unrenewed mind" or anything.
I'd go to the source. "Why do I feel this way about your little endeavor.."
It better not be an answer like.. "well, you're justa thinkin evil or somethin".
Now lynn and crowd.. they've already ruined themselves to the place I wouldn't even BOTHER going to them for an explanation..
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Ham
$%*@#..
why do I have to go hunt people down to find out their friggin motive..
&*($^&*..
I've been saying this most of today..
I've really got better things to do.. but maybe not..
I hope it doesn't end up as a real war with people.. but sheesh..
they have no idea who they're up against..
and no, it's not the devil..
maybe it's a close second..
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J0nny Ling0
You don't have to hunt them down to find out their motive. You can say anything you want to in a public forum without knowing anything about them! Just to me, personally, were I to say anything negative about someone, I'd rather have the facts first, that's all. But that's just me...
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Ham
My first reaction to the link you provided.
when's they guy gonna jump out from behind the bushes.. "boo.. April Fool! Nyuk nyuk, I'm not REALLY trying to perpeptuate a blood and life sucking cult.."
Then I looked at the calender.. heck, it's not even February yet..
there is NOTHING on that site to indicate anything different from what I initially thought..
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Ham
The call to the "ministry".. "Here am I, chop my wood.."
There's an Amish community about forty miles north here..
I'm sure they live life "on the edge".. at least physically speaking..
I dunno.. once these people chop the wood.. build the farm.. what's REALLY in it for them.. the Amish.. at least you have some kind of community..
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Ham
what happened to OUR "community"..?
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Ham
Friend.. we were scattered to the four winds.. and's that's part of the initial agreement with this new little slice of "heaven"..
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Ham
damn.. one lifetime after another I've chosen a losing cause.. maybe we all have..
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