Linda, I don't think anyone here is saying what we learned in PFAL, and the blessings we received from God were real, and for those of us who still believe, they are still real. But, it was God, working in spite of VPW, in our lives, I now believe.
I never particularly liked VP from the first time I ever met him as a teenager, so I feel fortunate I didn't worship him or felt "honored" to be around him. I look back now and realize, he truly was a wolf in sheep's clothing who took advantage of a tremendous "revival" of God back in the late '60s, early 70s and used it for his profit. He plunderd the seeking, thirsty, young, naive newbies of Christ's flock for his own gain and lust. He packaged and marketed a product, one he had looked for, for a long time, and found his pot of gold in B.G. Leonard's class, which he then appropriated as his own, and went on to use it to make a fortune.
As to his abuse of women - even if it was only one woman he ever abused - it was too much. He never repented of this evil. He continued to refine it. Like a predator, he knew who to pick out of the crowd. This is truly sick behaviour.
He started having sex with underage, 16 year olds in Rye, NY. I have several woman friends in the early corps whose word and FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE I know from years of friendship to be impeccible. When I realized the extent, literally hundreds, not just corps, but women, WOWs and whoever he decided he wanted - it literally made me sick to my stomach. When I heard accounts of how, when he spotted someone he wanted, if he didn't know them well, he would send his loyal corps women to befriend them, then gradually tell the victim, what a great honor and thing it was, having sex with VP, after much pressure, and being in the corps, the person, many times would succumb. One woman told me it was disgusting and avoided him whenever possible after being "blessed" sexually by the MOG.
He was a predatory pervert who liked teenage women. Once he'd had you for awhile or you were too old and the novelty wore off, you were passed around to others. I call it VP's "sex club."
Now, there were also the women who wanted to be with him, the groupies. Those who wanted to "bless" the so-called man of god. Those who had such low self-esteem they thought being with this guy was wonderful - and rightly so, he made them feel wonderful, and there were perks - anyone feel like climbing the TWI ladder? Maybe ordination? I have often wondered, looking back on it, how they feel about it now. Would they gladly give their teenage daughter to him now?
I think alot of it was the time, the hippie, sexual revolution. Some of these women were truly into sex for sex's sake - maybe they still are, who knows.
But, there were the innocent molested victims, young, scared, and not sophisticated enough to say no to a dirty old man who wanted them. What he did was literally, criminal. When you're young you're naive - it was a different age back then, lawsuits probably wouldn't have been considered then - as VP said to them - who would believe you? Keep it lockbox girl.
I know personally one woman in an early corps, who was one of my best friends. She left the corps abruptly. Even on the field people were saying awful things about her. I wondered, how could this be? Everyone loved her. She was a wonderful woman. It wasn't until years later she told me, when I ran into her what had really happened. How he had come on to her persistently. When she kept saying no, he told her to pack and get out and slandered her.
I had heard rumours, but during my committed years, like you, I dismissed them. Figured people were "disgruntled." It wasn't until I was invited to his motorcoach, thinking it was an innocent get together, and having to fend him off twice, that I realized that what I heard was true. One of my best friends in the corps serviced him regularly. She was so flattered, and thought it was great - I thought she was an idiot. Later, she would service others who were teaching classes, as a favor to VP.
There's more. There's so much more. I know every word Dot, ExCath and others who post their painful, personal experiences is true.
I think, even if it had been caught on video, people still wouldn't believe it. For some people, denial about VP, and who and what he was, is the only shield they have. Their world and lives have been based upon him, and his teachings. I would rather know the truth. And I am thankful for people who do have the courage to share.
quote:Originally posted by Sunesis: Their world and lives have been based upon him, and his teachings. I would rather know the truth. And I am thankful for people who do have the courage to share.
***
My world was based on him for twinty years... thank you for sharing your world about a world i was warned...
Sin in my opinion is not what we have been taught to think it is.
I believe VPW and LCM or RRR or RJR or any of the idiots frolicking about pretending to be more significant in the sight of God than there fellow man are sincere in there desires and opinions. Such people honestly think more of themselves. Not that I would argue a mans intent defines what is or is not sin.
I'm not saying we should have compassion for them. No not compassion but maybe pity. What we call their sin is just the visible symptoms of their own ambition and covetousness.
The reason I give them my pity but not my compassion is because they are not the victims of malady they are its volunteers. Mutations in the thoughts of their minds and wants of their souls are the joy of their willful hearts.
Their damage to themselves is great. Though today they lack no dainty comfort for their journey tomorrow shall see them naked and weeping.
I do not believe sin is so much the wrong I do to others or the wrong others do to me. We all rightfully carry the guilt of blood and it's penalty of death. Sin is that which I do to myself in the presence of my God. What I do to others is only a wisp of air in comparison no matter how great my crimes.
And I think Oaksear hit the nail on head or should I say the "skunk pelt" when he spoke of the difference between VP and C. I saw two personalitys seeking the same things, Power, Control, Sex and a Retirement Plan.
"yeah so what. we're deserving of being believed or loved because we post our accounts again ?"
I had thought that this did not need to be said, I apologize. I love you and I feel deeply for your past mis-treatments. I hope that you have a wonderful holiday. I pray for you.
MY Dear Exxie, I didn't know I only know that I love you and am crying for what you had to go thru. You of the g.s.cafe have such a beautiful heart that it just takes my breathe away.
I wish I had been there to kick that bastard pervert in the area that hurts him the most with a steeled toe'd boot. LOve Dovey.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
Why all the effort to protect VPW's reputation, dude? I mean, is he really that important to protect? Like 'the integrity of God's Word' was totally dependant on him? Like God can't do any better than VPW to make known His Word? Damn guy, you must not give much credance to God's skills if that's the case.
Garth,
Has nothing to do with the integrity of the Word, but believing something very evil about a person who means something to you and you love. The allegations of VP being a rapist and a serial rapist have been over-the-top for myself and the others I know who never post. Some folks I know don't even believe he committed adultery, let alone raping someone, and think the very allegations are the work of the devil, and most don't want to hear it and consider it unimportant in the grand scheme of things.
Try to look at it this way. If someone you loved was accused of being a serial rapist, you'd probably be disturbed about it very much. You'd probably either want to ignore what people are saying, to shield yourself from the allegations, or you'd want to hear everything about it you possibly could, and after hearing it try to make an informed decision based upon what was said. In this thread, I asked the question if there were any other allegations besides the two made of VPW drugging people. I don't think that's a particularly probing or obnoxious question and if someone else wishes to come forth with another allegation, that's their privilege. By the way, I've already spoken about this with John Lynn and asked him this very question, and he was kind of reluctant to get into it with me and he didn't get into many details. He does confirm that VPW had sex with many women, as was stated in The Cult That Snapped. But I get the impression that VP's alleged acts of drugging people is kind of shrouded in mystery and not very clear. And I also find it difficult to envision Howard Allen being complicit in all of this...geeze.
Be that as it may, all of this are my thoughts and opinions and I don't mean any harm by expressing myself, and I sincerely hope that my words aren't taken as personal attacks.
Why the double standard? If someone says VPW did something positive for their life, you say give God the praise. It was God, not VPW. Yet, when someone else says they were sexually abused, it was VPW, not the devil.
As hard as it is for you to believe it, imagine for a monent, how hard it was for those teens to have live it. They loved God and the Bible and the teacher as well.... that is how they got in the position.
That is why the shock and events/experiences crippled them - blew trust right out of thier lives... Broke them on some level... Destroyed the life they should have had becasue they had to deal with all this .... Some are still seeking professional help to help them recover. Some did not make it...
So, if it is hard for you to even consider... For one moment crawl in their skin and feel the destruction they felt.
Have you ever put yourself in someone else's shoes? Try it here just for an hour. Ask God to see through their eyes...
May God help you and show you compassion and release you from the lie that was sold to you...
For one hour just consider the lie sold to you is not from us. Just an hour...
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on December 31, 2003 at 6:59.]
Please fell free to remove your post, you were just standing by us.
By the way, what she says is TRUE. Howard was passed VP's left overs.
Hard to believe? Imagine seeing it, what would your gut be like then? Twisted into knots? Devastated? You cannot not even think about it... Because to think about it means you have to back into your life and re-examine it all. But if you do, God will still win. You will not loose him... God still loves us.
quote:And I also find it difficult to envision Howard Allen being complicit in all of this...geeze.
it is a gross vision, isn't it ? ha ha ha ha ha but true nonetheless
anyway, i am not really sure about the drugging thing. i just know that each time he tried to "heal" me on the coach, i cried, begged no, and left.... until the time prophet ralph kramden (sorry jackie) gave me something to drink. next thing i remember i was in the back of the bus looking at these dead eyes. but it was like watching a movie from far away. i've never been sure if it was my mind protecting me or something else. but it was very weird.
then when i was asleep over on the other side, he came over and nudged me with his you-know-what and i played possum and thank god he went away. and that was the first and last time.
i knew marsha (not very well) and i remember all the talk about how she was possessed with many devils. poor girl. she really got the shaft.
wierwille did not care when girls were broken as long as it protected his "reputation." i had a friend (more than one, now that i think about it) who got called to headquarters for mental help after they had been with him. same with craig.
WhatZZZZZZZ UUUUp! you fine expressionist of a woman. I've been away and missed your conversations.
What I mean by sin being what we do to ourselves is the way we allow our lack of confidence in Gods love and ability to dive us into trusting our own reasoning's more than Him. This is the trouble with logic. God is not logical He is correct people use logic God doesn't use anything.
God is ever with us at all times there is nothing to be afraid of. We all have physical and emotional needs. We should look to our God to supply them not to men or their institutions such as religions or governments. Don't misunderstand me I don't mean If you are sick you shouldn't go to a hospital.
What I mean is, do the thing that God says if its go to church then go to church if its go the clinic or dunk yourself 7 times in your bathtub until you are better then do what you asked God to tell you to do. Of course the person who is not completely convinced that God is with him and in him will ask, " How do I know what God is saying for me to do I don't hear anything?"
So they try reading the bible or book of Mormon or Koran. They take classes and become monks or way corp thinking that will tell them what to do or that is what God wants them to do. The things people do to themselves in their effort to know God and His will are lamentable.
Put yourself in God's shoes. If you were God always with me and I was always asking you what your will is and what I should do. And you stood right in front of me and told me plainly and clearly every time I asked yet, I wondered around all day ignoring what you had to say and just continued unceasingly to ask wouldn't you be just a little irked. That is what I think sin really is.
If you lack confidence in God then just make up your mind either He does or does not tell you everything you need to know. He is or is not ever with you guiding you and helping you, which one is it. God is not hiding or whispering you either believe this or you do not.
God does not care less for you than he does for Jesus Christ. You will never find Him looking to others nor will you discover His will for you personally in what some preacher has to say. All people get when they trust someone else to show them God's will is the only thing someone else is able to give them, death.
The only time you should consider what a man is saying to be God's will is when God directs you to. Then the person teaching you is doing what he needs to do not for your sake but for his. The ego of people to think that I can't know Gods will without them to tell me. What an exceeding abundance of insanity is carried by the hearts of men.
Is God unable to speak for Himself? If I needed to know God's will and the person whom God is trying to ameliorate by having them tell it to me will not listen then God will have the rocks sing it to me.
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Sunesis
Linda, I don't think anyone here is saying what we learned in PFAL, and the blessings we received from God were real, and for those of us who still believe, they are still real. But, it was God, working in spite of VPW, in our lives, I now believe.
I never particularly liked VP from the first time I ever met him as a teenager, so I feel fortunate I didn't worship him or felt "honored" to be around him. I look back now and realize, he truly was a wolf in sheep's clothing who took advantage of a tremendous "revival" of God back in the late '60s, early 70s and used it for his profit. He plunderd the seeking, thirsty, young, naive newbies of Christ's flock for his own gain and lust. He packaged and marketed a product, one he had looked for, for a long time, and found his pot of gold in B.G. Leonard's class, which he then appropriated as his own, and went on to use it to make a fortune.
As to his abuse of women - even if it was only one woman he ever abused - it was too much. He never repented of this evil. He continued to refine it. Like a predator, he knew who to pick out of the crowd. This is truly sick behaviour.
He started having sex with underage, 16 year olds in Rye, NY. I have several woman friends in the early corps whose word and FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE I know from years of friendship to be impeccible. When I realized the extent, literally hundreds, not just corps, but women, WOWs and whoever he decided he wanted - it literally made me sick to my stomach. When I heard accounts of how, when he spotted someone he wanted, if he didn't know them well, he would send his loyal corps women to befriend them, then gradually tell the victim, what a great honor and thing it was, having sex with VP, after much pressure, and being in the corps, the person, many times would succumb. One woman told me it was disgusting and avoided him whenever possible after being "blessed" sexually by the MOG.
He was a predatory pervert who liked teenage women. Once he'd had you for awhile or you were too old and the novelty wore off, you were passed around to others. I call it VP's "sex club."
Now, there were also the women who wanted to be with him, the groupies. Those who wanted to "bless" the so-called man of god. Those who had such low self-esteem they thought being with this guy was wonderful - and rightly so, he made them feel wonderful, and there were perks - anyone feel like climbing the TWI ladder? Maybe ordination? I have often wondered, looking back on it, how they feel about it now. Would they gladly give their teenage daughter to him now?
I think alot of it was the time, the hippie, sexual revolution. Some of these women were truly into sex for sex's sake - maybe they still are, who knows.
But, there were the innocent molested victims, young, scared, and not sophisticated enough to say no to a dirty old man who wanted them. What he did was literally, criminal. When you're young you're naive - it was a different age back then, lawsuits probably wouldn't have been considered then - as VP said to them - who would believe you? Keep it lockbox girl.
I know personally one woman in an early corps, who was one of my best friends. She left the corps abruptly. Even on the field people were saying awful things about her. I wondered, how could this be? Everyone loved her. She was a wonderful woman. It wasn't until years later she told me, when I ran into her what had really happened. How he had come on to her persistently. When she kept saying no, he told her to pack and get out and slandered her.
I had heard rumours, but during my committed years, like you, I dismissed them. Figured people were "disgruntled." It wasn't until I was invited to his motorcoach, thinking it was an innocent get together, and having to fend him off twice, that I realized that what I heard was true. One of my best friends in the corps serviced him regularly. She was so flattered, and thought it was great - I thought she was an idiot. Later, she would service others who were teaching classes, as a favor to VP.
There's more. There's so much more. I know every word Dot, ExCath and others who post their painful, personal experiences is true.
I think, even if it had been caught on video, people still wouldn't believe it. For some people, denial about VP, and who and what he was, is the only shield they have. Their world and lives have been based upon him, and his teachings. I would rather know the truth. And I am thankful for people who do have the courage to share.
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excathedra
thank you dear sunesis
ps. would you kindly email me ? thanks
?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
***
My world was based on him for twinty years... thank you for sharing your world about a world i was warned...
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Dot Matrix
Sunesis
Wow girl! You always check in at the right time! I was waiting on you.
Thank you for bringing your accounts to this thread and hopefully it will help others to see....
Or maybe some poor girl out there will find she was not the only one if she visits.
I know you told VPW "no!" and dodged him after he tried to "get" you....
It was an awkward situation to say the least. Thanks for showing up it is helpful when others who know lend their credence.
Love you always!
((((((Sunesis)))))
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early2it
What difference does it all make?
Sin in my opinion is not what we have been taught to think it is.
I believe VPW and LCM or RRR or RJR or any of the idiots frolicking about pretending to be more significant in the sight of God than there fellow man are sincere in there desires and opinions. Such people honestly think more of themselves. Not that I would argue a mans intent defines what is or is not sin.
Continued on next post......
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early2it
Continued from last post.....
I'm not saying we should have compassion for them. No not compassion but maybe pity. What we call their sin is just the visible symptoms of their own ambition and covetousness.
The reason I give them my pity but not my compassion is because they are not the victims of malady they are its volunteers. Mutations in the thoughts of their minds and wants of their souls are the joy of their willful hearts.
Continued on next post......
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early2it
Continued from last post.....
Their damage to themselves is great. Though today they lack no dainty comfort for their journey tomorrow shall see them naked and weeping.
I do not believe sin is so much the wrong I do to others or the wrong others do to me. We all rightfully carry the guilt of blood and it's penalty of death. Sin is that which I do to myself in the presence of my God. What I do to others is only a wisp of air in comparison no matter how great my crimes.
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simpatico
Great post Sunesis, I whole heartedly agree.
And I think Oaksear hit the nail on head or should I say the "skunk pelt" when he spoke of the difference between VP and C. I saw two personalitys seeking the same things, Power, Control, Sex and a Retirement Plan.
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excathedra
thanks.
?
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Dot Matrix
Simpatico
I like the whole skunk pelt thing too!
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Galen
excathedra:
"yeah so what. we're deserving of being believed or loved because we post our accounts again ?"
I had thought that this did not need to be said, I apologize. I love you and I feel deeply for your past mis-treatments. I hope that you have a wonderful holiday. I pray for you.
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wyteduv58
MY Dear Exxie, I didn't know I only know that I love you and am crying for what you had to go thru. You of the g.s.cafe have such a beautiful heart that it just takes my breathe away.
I wish I had been there to kick that bastard pervert in the area that hurts him the most with a steeled toe'd boot. LOve Dovey.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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oldiesman
Garth,
Has nothing to do with the integrity of the Word, but believing something very evil about a person who means something to you and you love. The allegations of VP being a rapist and a serial rapist have been over-the-top for myself and the others I know who never post. Some folks I know don't even believe he committed adultery, let alone raping someone, and think the very allegations are the work of the devil, and most don't want to hear it and consider it unimportant in the grand scheme of things.
Try to look at it this way. If someone you loved was accused of being a serial rapist, you'd probably be disturbed about it very much. You'd probably either want to ignore what people are saying, to shield yourself from the allegations, or you'd want to hear everything about it you possibly could, and after hearing it try to make an informed decision based upon what was said. In this thread, I asked the question if there were any other allegations besides the two made of VPW drugging people. I don't think that's a particularly probing or obnoxious question and if someone else wishes to come forth with another allegation, that's their privilege. By the way, I've already spoken about this with John Lynn and asked him this very question, and he was kind of reluctant to get into it with me and he didn't get into many details. He does confirm that VPW had sex with many women, as was stated in The Cult That Snapped. But I get the impression that VP's alleged acts of drugging people is kind of shrouded in mystery and not very clear. And I also find it difficult to envision Howard Allen being complicit in all of this...geeze.
Be that as it may, all of this are my thoughts and opinions and I don't mean any harm by expressing myself, and I sincerely hope that my words aren't taken as personal attacks.
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johniam
Why the double standard? If someone says VPW did something positive for their life, you say give God the praise. It was God, not VPW. Yet, when someone else says they were sexually abused, it was VPW, not the devil.
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Dot Matrix
Oakspear
Sorry, we had to remove some of what was shared.
I hope it does not mess up your thread. It was shared to help others -- then of course came the nay saying. Too much to handle at times.
Enjoy the thread folks and the arguing about if or if we are not lying. Hard to read defense of a rapist for some. Even if the devil was his battery.
Peace...
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Dot Matrix
OM
As hard as it is for you to believe it, imagine for a monent, how hard it was for those teens to have live it. They loved God and the Bible and the teacher as well.... that is how they got in the position.
That is why the shock and events/experiences crippled them - blew trust right out of thier lives... Broke them on some level... Destroyed the life they should have had becasue they had to deal with all this .... Some are still seeking professional help to help them recover. Some did not make it...
So, if it is hard for you to even consider... For one moment crawl in their skin and feel the destruction they felt.
Have you ever put yourself in someone else's shoes? Try it here just for an hour. Ask God to see through their eyes...
May God help you and show you compassion and release you from the lie that was sold to you...
For one hour just consider the lie sold to you is not from us. Just an hour...
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on December 31, 2003 at 6:59.]
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Dot Matrix
Suesis
Please fell free to remove your post, you were just standing by us.
By the way, what she says is TRUE. Howard was passed VP's left overs.
Hard to believe? Imagine seeing it, what would your gut be like then? Twisted into knots? Devastated? You cannot not even think about it... Because to think about it means you have to back into your life and re-examine it all. But if you do, God will still win. You will not loose him... God still loves us.
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excathedra
thanks dottie. i just felt weird.
and thank you galen.
oldies--
it is a gross vision, isn't it ? ha ha ha ha ha but true nonethelessanyway, i am not really sure about the drugging thing. i just know that each time he tried to "heal" me on the coach, i cried, begged no, and left.... until the time prophet ralph kramden (sorry jackie) gave me something to drink. next thing i remember i was in the back of the bus looking at these dead eyes. but it was like watching a movie from far away. i've never been sure if it was my mind protecting me or something else. but it was very weird.
then when i was asleep over on the other side, he came over and nudged me with his you-know-what and i played possum and thank god he went away. and that was the first and last time.
i knew marsha (not very well) and i remember all the talk about how she was possessed with many devils. poor girl. she really got the shaft.
wierwille did not care when girls were broken as long as it protected his "reputation." i had a friend (more than one, now that i think about it) who got called to headquarters for mental help after they had been with him. same with craig.
?
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early2it
ExC
WhatZZZZZZZ UUUUp! you fine expressionist of a woman. I've been away and missed your conversations.
What I mean by sin being what we do to ourselves is the way we allow our lack of confidence in Gods love and ability to dive us into trusting our own reasoning's more than Him. This is the trouble with logic. God is not logical He is correct people use logic God doesn't use anything.
Continued on next post....
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early2it
God is ever with us at all times there is nothing to be afraid of. We all have physical and emotional needs. We should look to our God to supply them not to men or their institutions such as religions or governments. Don't misunderstand me I don't mean If you are sick you shouldn't go to a hospital.
Continued on next post....
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early2it
What I mean is, do the thing that God says if its go to church then go to church if its go the clinic or dunk yourself 7 times in your bathtub until you are better then do what you asked God to tell you to do. Of course the person who is not completely convinced that God is with him and in him will ask, " How do I know what God is saying for me to do I don't hear anything?"
So they try reading the bible or book of Mormon or Koran. They take classes and become monks or way corp thinking that will tell them what to do or that is what God wants them to do. The things people do to themselves in their effort to know God and His will are lamentable.
Continued on next post....
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early2it
Put yourself in God's shoes. If you were God always with me and I was always asking you what your will is and what I should do. And you stood right in front of me and told me plainly and clearly every time I asked yet, I wondered around all day ignoring what you had to say and just continued unceasingly to ask wouldn't you be just a little irked. That is what I think sin really is.
If you lack confidence in God then just make up your mind either He does or does not tell you everything you need to know. He is or is not ever with you guiding you and helping you, which one is it. God is not hiding or whispering you either believe this or you do not.
Continued on next post....
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early2it
Continued from last post....
God does not care less for you than he does for Jesus Christ. You will never find Him looking to others nor will you discover His will for you personally in what some preacher has to say. All people get when they trust someone else to show them God's will is the only thing someone else is able to give them, death.
Continued on next post....
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early2it
Continued from last post....
The only time you should consider what a man is saying to be God's will is when God directs you to. Then the person teaching you is doing what he needs to do not for your sake but for his. The ego of people to think that I can't know Gods will without them to tell me. What an exceeding abundance of insanity is carried by the hearts of men.
Is God unable to speak for Himself? If I needed to know God's will and the person whom God is trying to ameliorate by having them tell it to me will not listen then God will have the rocks sing it to me.
Continued on next post....
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