I never trusted the bod etc from before I got in the corpse. vp would attack the rc's for beleiving that the pope spoke "excthedra" (sp?)
then turned around and expected us to treat him like he was "speaking for God. Yeah right!
I knew that the lunch rants were "flavored" if you will, the first week in rez. I was wrongly crucified during lunch by jal for something reported to him during a fire drill the night before.
I guess I was just lucky/blessed? (almost hate to use a perfectly good word because of the associated with it)
Yeah, now I know who you are, good to see you again. :)--> :)--> I loved Meg's Manta, that was a nice little car. It was a bummer to see it all torn up afterward and it was God's intervention somehow that kept you not only alive, but basically unhurt.
Good ol' Blue, the rusty '63 Ford. Everyone thought it would be the first onr to expire on the WOW field. It was the last one to have any problems, and once Roger got his car going again, it seems we loaned ol' Blue out to several families in need at times.
It was an honor to have saved yerazs.
(Do you remember the red white and blue steering wheel? :D--> )
(How about the gas tank heldon by a tow chain? :D--> :D-->
The infallibility thing was even more insidious. Very seldom would you hear anyone come right out and say that Wierwille or Martindale was always right, but that's what it amounted to.
Even if the possibility of fallibility was brought up, only the MOG could decide if the MOG had been wrong.
For example, just before I was kicked out, I had gone to one of the Trustees about doctrinal errors that I had seen. He referred me to my Region Coordinator. The RC gave a few examples of things that Wierwille had been wrong about and changed. When I responded with the observation that these errors were evidence that the current doctrine could be wrong, the RC told me that the Trustees would let us know if what they were teaching was wrong.
This whole mindset is the very foundation for abuse. The whole concept that the leaders cannot be wrong, but if they are, they will let us know, is a blueprint for mind control.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
quote:This whole mindset is the very foundation for abuse. The whole concept that the leaders cannot be wrong, but if they are, they will let us know, is a blueprint for mind control.
I know of no instance when Dr. V or Craig said they "cannot be wrong, but if they are, they will let us know." That seems a little over the top, because everyone makes mistakes and folks who've been around the ministry for years know that they (VPW and LCM) have made mistakes.
Also, if twi engaged in mind control because the adherents believed that the words spoken by the leaders were "from God", or "revelation", then so many many other religions engage in mind control as well. Let's face it, twi is not alone in this respect.
Sorry this is so long, so please forgive my rambling,but I have read with interest many of the threads and have grown to respect, empathize with, and anxiously await many posters on this forum. Certainly, the range of feelings and ideas span the entire emotional and ideological scale. I became involved with TWI in 1971 when I was still in high school and left in 1989. It was a long and enlightening process and dominated my adolescent and early adult life. As such, many of my beliefs, attitudes, and my lifestyle were molded while I was actively involved. Given that history, I offer my (with the emphasis on MY) opinions, observations and insight. There is no such thing as an objective opinion, since an opinion is exactly that; a subjective viewpoint on any given topic ? it may be right or wrong ? but is nevertheless an individual perspective.
This is not written as an apology for any actions that harmed or hurt anyone ? and there were many. Sin is sin, but the consequences and effects vary considerably. Most people and events are multi-dimensional. History is replete with infinite examples of bad people doing good things and vice-versa. Alleged sexual deviants, dipsomaniacs, and megalomaniacs founded our country, but we are historically kind to them because their good outweighed the bad. Judas Iscariot is remembered only for his betrayal of Jesus. All of these people are ironically complex but are singularly defined by (associated with) their major accomplishments or deeds.
I believe my years with TWI were mostly enjoyable because I was told very early on to never ever follow a man or a ministry. Instead, I was to study and believe for myself. If I ever found anything better or more profitable to me, I was told to follow it instead. I remember VP saying that if the Way Ministry ever got in the way of moving the Word, he would can the whole thing. (Please remember, these are my thoughts and memories ? I know he lied about many things and hurt many people.) Well, it took many years, but that simplistic ideology began to visibly change and I began to see some of the decay and corruption within the ?household?, but that did (does not) negate the positives that I also learned.
The hurt is so deep (as many have attested to) because the trust was so complete. Hearts and lives are delicate commodities and we very rarely allow ourselves to readily trust anything ? it is a survival defense mechanism. When we do, we become vulnerable to outside influences ? for both good and bad. I did not personally see the overt corruption, nor was I taught to ever mistreat other people. I cannot forgive VP for the harm he knowingly did to those who trusted him with their lives (thankfully, that task is for God and God alone), but that does not negate everything that I learned while in TWI (This is not a defense of doctrine or lifestyle). We are the sum of our pasts and we cannot escape what happened to us, but as evidenced by the varied responses and the range of emotions, there are degrees and stages of our individual introspection. If you believe you are a good person now, then at least some of that is because of your past. It?s good to be able to talk about it.
quote:I believe my years with TWI were mostly enjoyable because I was told very early on to never ever follow a man or a ministry. Instead, I was to study and believe for myself. If I ever found anything better or more profitable to me, I was told to follow it instead. I remember VP saying that if the Way Ministry ever got in the way of moving the Word, he would can the whole thing.
yep... heard and believed that too... here's the deal though... everything else was geared to make derway your whole life and existence... now, once you do see something that was a little off center, you're less likely to object to it, less likely to question it... or if you do, you do so and stay anyway...
because to "can the whole thing" meant giving up your life as you knew it... get it?
it's awfully hard to just "walk away" from your entire life... very hard...
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
Read the quote from my post in context of the whole post. This was a real instance that took place, not a fantasy. Perhaps you don't know that I was kicked out less than three years ago, long after your departure from TWI.
While you and I and others perhaps could easily see that Wierwille, Martindale and others made mistakes, I don't recall too many incidents where they were admitted, at least not publically.
Do you know of any significant instances where anyone corrected Wierwille and Wierwille admitted his error? And that person was allowed to stick around?
You would never hear Wierwille (or Martindale) flatly say that they were never wrong, but the expectation was that you would follow them, right or wrong. Corrections, if any, were made quitly and behind the scenes. Admittedly, this escalated and was codified during Martindale's reign, but are you saying that Wierwille's teachings weren't the standard by which the bible was interpreted during his lifetime?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
I remember being taught that if you follow leadership (including vp & lcm) then even if leadership was wrong, God would homor your obedience.
So damded if you do and damded if you don't...just obey! Be good! Don't talk back!
I know ofa time when the lcm "affair" was announced in fellowship. When asked later in the meeting what we thought, most of us little robots tried to justify it with the David & Bathsheba thing amongst others. One lady had the balls to say that maybe it would cause us to be a little more humble & not to think so much higher of ourselves over others. Well the wc leader ripped her a new one in front of everyone. How dare she!
It was definately inferred that they were infallable. After all, God does talk to them all the time, right? -->
quote:... but are you saying that Wierwille's teachings weren't the standard by which the bible was interpreted during his lifetime?
Oakspear, yes I agree with you on that. All I'm saying is, if you be fair you'll also see this in a whole lot of other religions. It isn't entirely a Way phenomenon to think that the leaders speak God's will and are thought of as men of God. That's the point I was making.
BTW, I know very little about life in TWI-2 so feel free to correct my errors on that all you want ... I left TWI in 1990.
wherever the thought of "skunk pelt" originated from... certainly makes impacts of thought... hence i started a thread about it... and came back here my short comment...
quote:... but are you saying that Wierwille's teachings weren't the standard by which the bible was interpreted during his lifetime?
Oakspear, yes I agree with you on that. All I'm saying is, if you be fair you'll also see this in a whole lot of other religions. It isn't entirely a Way phenomenon to think that the leaders speak God's will and are thought of as men of God. That's the point I was making.
BTW, I know very little about life in TWI-2 so feel free to correct my errors on that all you want ... I left TWI in 1990.
Oh, so it happens all over the place, so therefore docvic(praise be his name) can be excused for his transgressions! Is that what you are saying?
Good Lord, man! Where is your moral center?
When you love God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength, it's not all that impossible to keep your penis in your pants!
Regardless of ANYONE ELSE'S RESPONSIBILITY in any of these matters, the facts remain that adultery was committed by docvic(praise be his name), stinkendale, and a slough of others at the "top".
That in and of itself is enough to convict, regardless of any culpability on the parts of other people.
Dang, but you have a narrow view of things - take off them blinders!
and oakie dokie you are right, we are discussing TWI
shoot if i ever got started on my upbringing in the catholic church, i'd probably blow up some computers
**
and while we're talking about these WAYMOGs, i remember meekly and humbly crawling up to craig one time to "ask" a question about something he taught at a sunday night service which contradicted something in a pfal collateral
holy crap. he yelled and spit until i thought i would drown. jerkoff. the least he could have done was stood with his father in the fog
ps. this was in the late 70's so major moggy was still the (dick)head
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Al Poole
I never trusted the bod etc from before I got in the corpse. vp would attack the rc's for beleiving that the pope spoke "excthedra" (sp?)
then turned around and expected us to treat him like he was "speaking for God. Yeah right!
I knew that the lunch rants were "flavored" if you will, the first week in rez. I was wrongly crucified during lunch by jal for something reported to him during a fire drill the night before.
I guess I was just lucky/blessed? (almost hate to use a perfectly good word because of the associated with it)
I can't imagine staying in as long as some did.
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dabobbada
oldiesman...
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
Yeah, now I know who you are, good to see you again.
:)--> 
:)--> I loved Meg's Manta, that was a nice little car. It was a bummer to see it all torn up afterward and it was God's intervention somehow that kept you not only alive, but basically unhurt.
Good ol' Blue, the rusty '63 Ford. Everyone thought it would be the first onr to expire on the WOW field. It was the last one to have any problems, and once Roger got his car going again, it seems we loaned ol' Blue out to several families in need at times.
It was an honor to have saved yerazs.
(Do you remember the red white and blue steering wheel?
:D--> )
(How about the gas tank heldon by a tow chain?
:D--> 
:D-->
Talk about an ultimate wowmobile!?
)
Way II much fun for one man.
love ya,
Bob Hansen
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oldiesman
Bob that's so funny, thanks for the memories.
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excathedra
Al,
ex cathedra
;)-->
?
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WordWolf
You noticed.
vpw and lcm derided the RC church for the doctrines of
papal infallibility and apostolic succession,
then tried to claim those very things.
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excathedra
having come from both religions.....
is one reason i picked my handle
:)-->
?
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Oakspear
Yeah, funny, isn't it, Wolf.
The infallibility thing was even more insidious. Very seldom would you hear anyone come right out and say that Wierwille or Martindale was always right, but that's what it amounted to.
Even if the possibility of fallibility was brought up, only the MOG could decide if the MOG had been wrong.
For example, just before I was kicked out, I had gone to one of the Trustees about doctrinal errors that I had seen. He referred me to my Region Coordinator. The RC gave a few examples of things that Wierwille had been wrong about and changed. When I responded with the observation that these errors were evidence that the current doctrine could be wrong, the RC told me that the Trustees would let us know if what they were teaching was wrong.
This whole mindset is the very foundation for abuse. The whole concept that the leaders cannot be wrong, but if they are, they will let us know, is a blueprint for mind control.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Sunny1
Hello, Wordwoof,
Right on!! I agree with YEW!
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Sunny1
good nite grease spots
me tired
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oldiesman
I know of no instance when Dr. V or Craig said they "cannot be wrong, but if they are, they will let us know." That seems a little over the top, because everyone makes mistakes and folks who've been around the ministry for years know that they (VPW and LCM) have made mistakes.
Also, if twi engaged in mind control because the adherents believed that the words spoken by the leaders were "from God", or "revelation", then so many many other religions engage in mind control as well. Let's face it, twi is not alone in this respect.
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Flow7
Sorry this is so long, so please forgive my rambling,but I have read with interest many of the threads and have grown to respect, empathize with, and anxiously await many posters on this forum. Certainly, the range of feelings and ideas span the entire emotional and ideological scale. I became involved with TWI in 1971 when I was still in high school and left in 1989. It was a long and enlightening process and dominated my adolescent and early adult life. As such, many of my beliefs, attitudes, and my lifestyle were molded while I was actively involved. Given that history, I offer my (with the emphasis on MY) opinions, observations and insight. There is no such thing as an objective opinion, since an opinion is exactly that; a subjective viewpoint on any given topic ? it may be right or wrong ? but is nevertheless an individual perspective.
This is not written as an apology for any actions that harmed or hurt anyone ? and there were many. Sin is sin, but the consequences and effects vary considerably. Most people and events are multi-dimensional. History is replete with infinite examples of bad people doing good things and vice-versa. Alleged sexual deviants, dipsomaniacs, and megalomaniacs founded our country, but we are historically kind to them because their good outweighed the bad. Judas Iscariot is remembered only for his betrayal of Jesus. All of these people are ironically complex but are singularly defined by (associated with) their major accomplishments or deeds.
I believe my years with TWI were mostly enjoyable because I was told very early on to never ever follow a man or a ministry. Instead, I was to study and believe for myself. If I ever found anything better or more profitable to me, I was told to follow it instead. I remember VP saying that if the Way Ministry ever got in the way of moving the Word, he would can the whole thing. (Please remember, these are my thoughts and memories ? I know he lied about many things and hurt many people.) Well, it took many years, but that simplistic ideology began to visibly change and I began to see some of the decay and corruption within the ?household?, but that did (does not) negate the positives that I also learned.
The hurt is so deep (as many have attested to) because the trust was so complete. Hearts and lives are delicate commodities and we very rarely allow ourselves to readily trust anything ? it is a survival defense mechanism. When we do, we become vulnerable to outside influences ? for both good and bad. I did not personally see the overt corruption, nor was I taught to ever mistreat other people. I cannot forgive VP for the harm he knowingly did to those who trusted him with their lives (thankfully, that task is for God and God alone), but that does not negate everything that I learned while in TWI (This is not a defense of doctrine or lifestyle). We are the sum of our pasts and we cannot escape what happened to us, but as evidenced by the varied responses and the range of emotions, there are degrees and stages of our individual introspection. If you believe you are a good person now, then at least some of that is because of your past. It?s good to be able to talk about it.
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Raf
But you forgot to answer the fundamental question:
How do you take your coffee?
(My way of saying welcome to the Cafe).
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Tom Strange
yep... heard and believed that too... here's the deal though... everything else was geared to make derway your whole life and existence... now, once you do see something that was a little off center, you're less likely to object to it, less likely to question it... or if you do, you do so and stay anyway...
because to "can the whole thing" meant giving up your life as you knew it... get it?
it's awfully hard to just "walk away" from your entire life... very hard...
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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Oakspear
Oldies:
Read the quote from my post in context of the whole post. This was a real instance that took place, not a fantasy. Perhaps you don't know that I was kicked out less than three years ago, long after your departure from TWI.
While you and I and others perhaps could easily see that Wierwille, Martindale and others made mistakes, I don't recall too many incidents where they were admitted, at least not publically.
Do you know of any significant instances where anyone corrected Wierwille and Wierwille admitted his error? And that person was allowed to stick around?
You would never hear Wierwille (or Martindale) flatly say that they were never wrong, but the expectation was that you would follow them, right or wrong. Corrections, if any, were made quitly and behind the scenes. Admittedly, this escalated and was codified during Martindale's reign, but are you saying that Wierwille's teachings weren't the standard by which the bible was interpreted during his lifetime?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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LuckyGirl
I remember being taught that if you follow leadership (including vp & lcm) then even if leadership was wrong, God would homor your obedience.
So damded if you do and damded if you don't...just obey! Be good! Don't talk back!
I know ofa time when the lcm "affair" was announced in fellowship. When asked later in the meeting what we thought, most of us little robots tried to justify it with the David & Bathsheba thing amongst others. One lady had the balls to say that maybe it would cause us to be a little more humble & not to think so much higher of ourselves over others. Well the wc leader ripped her a new one in front of everyone. How dare she!
It was definately inferred that they were infallable. After all, God does talk to them all the time, right?
-->
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oldiesman
Oakspear, yes I agree with you on that. All I'm saying is, if you be fair you'll also see this in a whole lot of other religions. It isn't entirely a Way phenomenon to think that the leaders speak God's will and are thought of as men of God. That's the point I was making.
BTW, I know very little about life in TWI-2 so feel free to correct my errors on that all you want ... I left TWI in 1990.
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vickles
The difference oldies, is these churches don't require as much of a commitment as TWI does.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Oakspear,
wherever the thought of "skunk pelt" originated from... certainly makes impacts of thought... hence i started a thread about it... and came back here my short comment...
Rok On
Song
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Steve!
Oh, so it happens all over the place, so therefore docvic(praise be his name) can be excused for his transgressions! Is that what you are saying?
Good Lord, man! Where is your moral center?
When you love God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength, it's not all that impossible to keep your penis in your pants!
Regardless of ANYONE ELSE'S RESPONSIBILITY in any of these matters, the facts remain that adultery was committed by docvic(praise be his name), stinkendale, and a slough of others at the "top".
That in and of itself is enough to convict, regardless of any culpability on the parts of other people.
Dang, but you have a narrow view of things - take off them blinders!
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oldiesman
Steve, go back and read what I was responding to. It had to do with a statement about mind control, not adultery...
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Steve!
Okay, so on that I stand corrected.
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Oakspear
Of course TWI wasn't unique. But TWI is what we're talking about here
:D-->
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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excathedra
luckygirl ohmygosh i KNOW
and oakie dokie you are right, we are discussing TWI
shoot if i ever got started on my upbringing in the catholic church, i'd probably blow up some computers
**
and while we're talking about these WAYMOGs, i remember meekly and humbly crawling up to craig one time to "ask" a question about something he taught at a sunday night service which contradicted something in a pfal collateral
holy crap. he yelled and spit until i thought i would drown. jerkoff. the least he could have done was stood with his father in the fog
ps. this was in the late 70's so major moggy was still the (dick)head
?
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Dot Matrix
Laughing to death!
:D-->
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