Number one: Dr Wierwille is dead and can't refute or confirm any allegations against him. Martindale is alive and already admitted what he did. (and I hope he has repented by now.) Which Wierwille sins are you talking about? What is your proof, or even evidence except rumors? And what do you mean by "skunk pelt." Actually I know what you mean and how dare you use a term like that.
I dare because I hold the whole concept of someone proclaiming himself to be The Man of God for Our Time in contempt, and the silly posturing and faux symbolism of the "transfer of the mantle" in equal contempt.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
quote:Which Wierwille sins are you talking about? What is your proof, or even evidence except rumors?
Let's see, how about multiple adulterous liaisons(sp?) and sexual abuse? First-hand accounts abound, here and on other sites, too many IMHO to be discounted. How about continuous lying about his credentials, background, specific incidents and supposed phenomena? How about egregious plargarism? Scan the site LC, incidents and supporting information abound.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Actually, Linda Carter, you're not answering my question. But that's okay, the question was mainly for folks who acknowledge Wierwille's sins but excuse them for one reason or another.
So, that's the best you got? He's dead and can't defend himself? It's all rumors?
Oh, and welcome to GreaseSpotCafe :D-->
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
2027, "Now I ready to tell others about either one but I will kept it one on one if possible...I guess that all I can say about that."
I don't think that is all that you can say about that other than one on one if possible. Martindale, one of the ones in question, taught that sins against the church would be best handled privately, but that there were some circumstances that demanded that they be handled publickly. One of the things that required public address was if the offense was so wide spread that it affected a large enough percentage of the body of the Way household that it needed to be addressed publickly so that the believers hurt could know how they got hurt and be healed.
No one's sins have affected the people of the ministry as widely as Martindale'sand Wierwille's. Because of the public awareness and consequences of his offenses, they need to be addressed publickly.
Oaks - I'm not one of the minority, but I will try to answer your question as I see it...
VPW was "our father in the Word". It is much easier to deny that your "father" committed incest with any of his children than it is to accept it.
LCM is our generation. He didn't have the "father" tag to hang anyone up. And then, there's the internet, which exposed him to hundreds, if not thousands of people in one blow.
With VP, if anyone knew about it, they didn't speak up,for a multitude of reasons that have been discussed here before. When it finally started coming to light, it was mostly in 2nd or 3rd hand stories. I know when I heard about it I didn't want to think of a 60+ year old VP sexually abusing the young, beautiful women I knew. That was gross.
So if people still want to hold him in high esteem - they can make a lot of excuses for their "father", like "he's dead and he can't answer for himself" or "how do you know these woman aren't lying?"
Craig was a jerk - anyone who stuck around TWI for as long as we did knew it. It was no surprise when the first law suit came out. It figured.
I think VP being the original "Daddy MOG" makes his molestation of young women harder for a lot of people to accept - so they are more likely to excuse it rather than believe it.
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
quote:Number one: Dr Wierwille is dead and can't refute or confirm any allegations against him. ...
I do think there's something to be said about the above, especially from those who knew him and didn't experience evil, but good from him. There's a viewpoint that says, "why take personally another person's alleged evil experience, when he did right by me."
I think alot of ex-way people fall in this category, and don't feel obligated to jump on the proverbial finger-pointing bandwagon, which may explain why there are so many who don't post.
[This message was edited by oldiesman on December 29, 2003 at 6:02.]
Agreed, Oldiesman. Many people can't comprehend that the man who was nice to them, or who had nice things to say about God, could possibly have evil intent toward others. And that is exactly what a predator hopes you will feel. It makes it easier for him to have access to his victims. It also makes it easier for him to live with himself.
How many priests molested little altar boys over the years? We had one in our town, and I can't tell you how many people came forward in the local paper to support him. He couldn't possibly have done it, not our man of God, they said. Then came the discovery that he played fast and loose with the collection plate in another diocese. Oopsie.
"There's a viewpoint that says, "why take personally another person's alleged evil experience, when he did right by me."
I dont mean in any way to down-grade or lessen the victim's plights though things that I have said in the past have certainly been taken that way. Many victims feel so awful that any other view point is taken as a defense. And those victims do have that right, I do not intend to take away or dis-credit their pain. Which is why I have never used 'alleged' in describing those people's experiences. I know that from serving as a M.P. when someone is telling of how they have been victimized, to say 'alleged' sounds like an insult. I do have mean to have insulted any victims here on GreaseSpot.
I think that I more correctly feel:
"why take personally another person's evil experience, when he did right by me."
Otherwise I would have to really hate the US Navy for how many men's lives they have totally ruined; all while they did okay by me.
I never thought of VPW as "Thee man of G-d". I thought that he taught that any and all of us, while we are standing of G-d's Word and holding it forth, ARE men of G-d.
I dont think that such a 'title' ever became common until after LCM took control of things.
". . . those who knew him and didn't experience evil, but good from him."
I did not know VPW personnaly, I was just a common twig coordinator, not a boot-licking leader-wannna-be.
VPW was a minister of a church, would found a 'hook' that multiplied his evangilism. Un-like the Catholics priests he did not claim to be celebite while he was boinking the congregation. Un-like the Baptists minister he did not use the tithe to pay for prostitutes. Un-like the Methodists minister he did not use the tithe to pay for weapons for the Nicaragian-Contras.
VPW copied other people's stuff, and was given too much power over other people's lives that it corrupted him.
I have never seen LCM as anything other than a power-hungry dictator.
What if it were the reverse, and you were the one hurt by someone in the Navy. Would you want others to validate your experience, come to your aid, perhaps expose the perpetrator, even bring him to justice if necessary?
What if they all turned aside and said, "But he was nice to me...?"
The Catholic priests, the Baptist ministers, etc. etc. who perpetrate evil should be dealt with. Many of them are now being dealt with because someone brought their error to light. Victims are getting justice, others are having their feelings validated. Churches are changing policies because someone exposed the error.
Some people were abused by what Wierwille did. Others ruined their lives by doing what he taught. I am not proposing that we dig up Wierwille's bones and hang him in effigy. I am saying that we should expose the error, so that people can begin to heal. Those people are your brothers and sisters in Christ. Are you willing to let your sister continue to suffer, and your other sisters continue to be misused, because it didn't happen to you?
Have we met? Your name rings a bell, and not just because of that TV show from the 70s. I'm thinking of a ride from Silver Bay to the Bronx. If it's you, send me an e-mail!
God Bless You and welcome to the Greasespot Cafe. I'll get you some coffee.
quote:Un-like the Catholics priests he did not claim to be celebite while he was boinking the congregation. Un-like the Baptists minister he did not use the tithe to pay for prostitutes. Un-like the Methodists minister he did not use the tithe to pay for weapons for the Nicaragian-Contras.
unlike good kind people, he was a rotten bastard
signed,
a boot licking wanna be leader who knew him personally ;)-->
I venture to say that if a Greasepot poster's sins were commented on, ad infinitem, and every sin and bad habit pattern, were encouraged to be brought forth and out in the open on the internet, the way they encourage and bring forth Dr. Wierwille's sins, it wouldn't be a pretty sight. It would be very nasty. It could be very devastating.
As long as you?ve been around, if you had half a grain of honesty, you?d quit this crap. You constantly distort what others say, both their words and their meaning. Nobody has attempted to discuss ?every sin and bad habit? of anyone. Also, No GreaseSpot posters have made claims about themselves anything like the claims Wierwille made about himself. I?m confident in saying that none have harmed anywhere near the number of people that Wierwille harmed, and that few have come close to harming any people to the degree that Wierwille harmed many.
If someone holds himself up to be one of the great men of God of the past two thousand years*, and if some people believed that, it is more than fair to examine both his life and his works.
*Anyone who claims that God Himself taught him His Word like it hadn?t been known since the first century is claiming to be one of the great men of God of the past two thousand years.
"why take personally another person's evil experience, when he did right by me."
First of all, nobody has suggested that anyone should take someone else?s experience personally or have personal animosity toward Wierwille, or anyone else. Secondly, Wierwille did not do right by you. He lied to you. Whether or not that bothers you is your business.
quote:I never thought of VPW as "Thee man of G-d". I thought that he taught that any and all of us, while we are standing of G-d's Word and holding it forth, ARE men of G-d.
I never thought of him that way, either. Doesn?t matter. Wierwille claimed that God Himself taught him His Word like it hadn?t been known for almost two thousand years. He claimed to teach the Word of God like it hadn?t been known for almost two thousand years. Wierwille called himself ?the man of God? and ?The Teacher? in the PFAL class, but he didn?t say that people who stand on God?s Word and hold it forth ARE men of God. He said they are LIKE men of God. (You have the class. Listen closely to that section.)
quote:I dont think that such a 'title' ever became common until after LCM took control of things.
You are wrong. I was on my way out when LCM took over, and left completely shortly afterwards. I?d heard many people call Wierwille THE Man of God, including on the main stage of ROA.
quote:I did not know VPW personnaly, I was just a common twig coordinator, not a boot-licking leader-wannna-be.
What a hard-hearted thing to say! (I originally wrote quite a bit stronger reply.) And how hypocritical, too! You go on about not using ?alleged?, then you imply that every teenage WOW and young Corps girl he sexually assaulted, every other person he abused in other ways, and even everyone who knew him personally was a ?boot-licking leader-wanna-be.?
I can appreciate Galen's POV even though I've had close ones hurt by others too. It was very well said. Galen, I didn't take any justification of their behavior from your post at all. I took it as simply recognizing that your experience was different.
Personally, I never met VPW so have no strong, direct feelings either way. However, I see a lot of evidence of his actions and treat them emotionally like I would anyone who has done great harm. It comes as part of my compassion for my fellow man. (Wow, that's a phrase that TWI had stamped out of my vocabulary) Joseph Stalin and co. had most of my family executed. Do I dwell on it? No. Does it affect me? Yes, in some ways. Would I put a bullet in his head if he were alive? Probably. Even though he too was "just a sinner." (Just kidding about that last bit!)
For those who may read into things, I am NOT advocating violence. Just expressing a strong feeling. I think people like that deserve justice not revenge. How satisfying it was to see Saddam Hussein, for example, cowering in a hole. Beats making him a glorious figure in death. IMO, if LCM did these things, my prayer would be that justice would be served.
Piece of a sidebar to a tangent that may be relevant or not...
IMO how anyone views VPW (or anyone else who attempts to function as a pastor, teacher, overseer, etc. to the church) has to include the overall standards for that kind of work and those kinds of "jobs". I think Timothy was referenced above and those things that Paul told Timothy would certainly apply. Why did he tell him...because as time went on and the church grew there would be increased need for service and help to the followers of Jesus Christ, of all kinds. Well, here we are, perhaps much further down the line than Paul saw, but nevertheless the standards of Timothy are applicable. (as well as so other things too, of course).
VPW, like so many others, was self-employed. He started his own church, organization, ministry whatever you want to call it. He hung out his shingle and opened for business. How that organization was set up was determined him. The whole concept of the Board of Trustees as a governing body for the Way was supported by him. Yes, there were "leaders" meetings up the ying yang for region, limb, area, department coordinators held by him, but anyone who ever attended any of those knows that the doctrinal direction of the Way wasn't determined by the concensus of that group. Direction was very well crafted to support the overall themes and interests set forth by the prez of the Way. Right or wrong, that's the way it was, with the "Way Tree" system as the primary means to communicate.
Point - nothing was set up within the Way to collect, evaluate or assess the performance of the President in detail. No performance criteria, other than "what the Word says", and no means of redress if it was felt that the "Word" wasn't being reflected properly in performance unless you want to count writing him personally - no one else knows and there's nothing requiring VP to respond - or publically discussing it with him, to which he could simply dismiss you or deface the validity of your claims in other ways.
Short version - One man, one Boss, Answerable to No One, other than his brother, his closest supporter, and uh, God.
This experience in the Way taught me that's not a good way to do things. Within the constraints of anyone's own authority it's always possible to cover up our own mistakes or excuse our own behavior. The more open things are, through both personal accountability and through processes, the more our behavior can be honestly evaluated. And look at the benefit! Perhaps VPW would have ended his endeavors in a more constructive and dynamic note than where he did.
I think anyone can see that the qualifications to serve the church in a trusted, offical capacity requires above average tenacity, honesty and meekness. Without those things it's a meat grinder of a world of hurt. It would be hard to see VPW in any other light than someone who needed the kind of help the church itself can provide. By shielding himself from that, he suffered and others did too. Getting up close and personal with the things of God is an honor and a privilege. When that's forgotten and abused, your day will go very, very dark indeed.
and the position is similar to, say, a counselor. you have this trust already that they are going to "help" you -- which makes it very difficult -- when you're betrayed
If what folks say about Wierwille is "rumors without evidence", Martindale falls into the same category, with one exception. He admitted to a "one-time consensual affair".
In my opinion, Wierwille covered his foot better than Martindale did, he presented himself to the masses better, he played the role of our "father in the Word" to the hilt, and orchestrated things so that even questioning him became taboo.
Martindale, evidently thought that the conferring of the skunk pelt :P--> gave him the same aura of holiness that Wierwille cultivated over decades. Martindale therefore made no effort to appear wise and loving; he was the MOG, so that was that. He did not "work the crowd" like Wierwille did, so he appeared as he was, a jerk.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
I was in a great twig and then ran a tender twig prior to the corps. If that was my only experience with TWI I would be very defensive of VPW. After all, it was the PFAL class that helped me out of confusion at that time and the fellowships that gave me the "family love" I needed. If all I saw were tender times, I would be a Weirwille fan unable to handle hearing anything negative about him. I would even use the "he is dead and cannot defend himself" defense of him.
In a way, I wish I was still sheltered from a lot of what happened behind closed doors, as I believe when I saw what laid behind the doors, it shattered the sweetness forever when I think of TWI. Not that I wanted the sweetness to change, but I found out "what was in the box is not what was painted on the box" so to speak. Like the expression "shattering of innocence" you cannot go back and be innocent again.
Because of my good experience in twig and running fellowships I wanted to go be one of God's committed corps. I wanted to give up my house and money and commit my life to serving God and loving his people.
Only when I got there VPW called me in the coach and was naked. He presented himself to me and asked me to do something to him and I refused.
What I found out was in the corps there was a group within the group that was very different. Some smoked pot, the married people "blessed" the single people sexually "to make them feel like a woman" or to "bless a man of God". The inside of the box was toxic.
And I did confront VPW while he was alive as did Ralph D. and others. He was beyond reproof regardless of how meek he said he was at large meetings. He always made it sound as if we could approach him with "chapter and verse" and we would be considered. That was not true.
This inner circle sinned and believed that they lived above the word of God. It was described to me as a higher plane and only people who "could handle it" were invited to partake. Anyone who objected or reproved their behavior were considered someone who "stumbled" at their freedom in their walk with Christ. Therefore, there was no way to correct them, they exalted themselves as gods deciding what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 3:5).
As a matter of fact when a Reverend was behaving in a manner that was not acceptable, i.e., getting drunk, bring home people from bars and having sex with them ?to get their needs met?, I reported the person. I figured it would help them and it was the right thing to do. Well, I was almost thrown out of the corps and had to go see Craig. When I saw him he asked me, ?Do you know what you did wrong?? I thought heck no! He said, ?I opened my mouth and this was stuff that needed to be in a lock box.?
So when VPW sent for me I thought I would tell him what was going on in his ministry. I figured he would stop it. So, I walked in, ready to tell him what the minister was doing and how Craig told me I was wrong for talking about it! And there VPW sat ? naked. What a shock. Then, I knew he was the one behind the weirdness. And I followed up on it with him and did correct him with the Bible. He would not listen. Later, he told me that I need to learn when to shut-up and not talk about things that should not be talked about.
My ninth corps friend also was reproving the ?secret doctrine? with her research paper and was told by VPW to stop working on her subject which was ?Adultery?.
I have shared this before but I do again for you Linda. Your instincts maybe to call me a liar. Especially if you had a nice twig and never went beyond that level.
There are others you can speak with if you want to know what was really happening. Karl K wrote a book on it. If you believe Ralph D to be a stand up guy and know how to reach him, he?ll tell you and perhaps you will consider his words.
You can go back through threads and see many accounts on what happened. I do not fault you for having a hard time with what was really going on. It is frustrating when a person hears it for several years and does not relinquish their position that VPW was some kind of innocent guy who may be slipped up and had a few consensual affairs. That is the ?spin? put on it to combat the truth.
Woman confronted VPW all along and either left the ministry or the corps or were slandered by TWI and tossed out.
I know one girl in the corps who was stuck having to ?service? the MOG on a regular basis. Well, she was having a nervous breakdown over it. So, what did TWI do? They told the corps she could not handle her position on the field so she was being replaced and brought back to HQS. To straighten her out. She gets back to HQS. And the source of her breakdown was there! Him and his doctrine of devils. He continued to touch her even when she did not want to be touched. And MOG made sure nobody would listen to her by telling everyone at a meeting that she was f?d up corps. He isolated her. It was awful for her. But I knew she wasn?t lying cause they tried to ?get? me.
This is tough to take if you came from a sweet twig. But you may want to read some of the archived stuff or seek out some other early corps ? a lot of them knew and if they left they may be willing to talk with you about it.
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Linda Carter
Number one: Dr Wierwille is dead and can't refute or confirm any allegations against him. Martindale is alive and already admitted what he did. (and I hope he has repented by now.) Which Wierwille sins are you talking about? What is your proof, or even evidence except rumors? And what do you mean by "skunk pelt." Actually I know what you mean and how dare you use a term like that.
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Oakspear
I dare because I hold the whole concept of someone proclaiming himself to be The Man of God for Our Time in contempt, and the silly posturing and faux symbolism of the "transfer of the mantle" in equal contempt.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Oakspear
Actually, Linda Carter, you're not answering my question. But that's okay, the question was mainly for folks who acknowledge Wierwille's sins but excuse them for one reason or another.
So, that's the best you got? He's dead and can't defend himself? It's all rumors?
Oh, and welcome to GreaseSpotCafe
:D-->
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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WordWolf
Hello, Linda.
I haven't seen you or the Mr posting here before, but it doesn't mean
I like either of you any less for that.
:)--> We all arrived here at
different times, and I, personally, would have guessed you'd arrive
sooner.
If you're late to the movie, you missed a few scenes.
Please review the documents and editorials on the GSC main page.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com
There's been many, many threads where many, many witnesses have come
forth-people who were victimized by vpw, people who were used as
unwitting pawns to victimize others and realized it years later
(but trusted him too much to suspect him THEN), and people who've
witnessed either, and put the pieces together since then.
This is hardly an issue where one person is making a single claim.
This is not a "smear" or "whisper" campaign. These things WOULD have
come to light if there had been an internet long ago, instead of
people vanishing and there being a "lockbox" policy about coverups,
and people who vanish were not subject to their OWN smear campaign
by twi.
Review some of this stuff, and you'll see what I mean.
lcm didn't make this up on his own-he imitated his instructor.
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Tom
2027, "Now I ready to tell others about either one but I will kept it one on one if possible...I guess that all I can say about that."
I don't think that is all that you can say about that other than one on one if possible. Martindale, one of the ones in question, taught that sins against the church would be best handled privately, but that there were some circumstances that demanded that they be handled publickly. One of the things that required public address was if the offense was so wide spread that it affected a large enough percentage of the body of the Way household that it needed to be addressed publickly so that the believers hurt could know how they got hurt and be healed.
No one's sins have affected the people of the ministry as widely as Martindale'sand Wierwille's. Because of the public awareness and consequences of his offenses, they need to be addressed publickly.
Tom
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Hope R.
Oaks - I'm not one of the minority, but I will try to answer your question as I see it...
VPW was "our father in the Word". It is much easier to deny that your "father" committed incest with any of his children than it is to accept it.
LCM is our generation. He didn't have the "father" tag to hang anyone up. And then, there's the internet, which exposed him to hundreds, if not thousands of people in one blow.
With VP, if anyone knew about it, they didn't speak up,for a multitude of reasons that have been discussed here before. When it finally started coming to light, it was mostly in 2nd or 3rd hand stories. I know when I heard about it I didn't want to think of a 60+ year old VP sexually abusing the young, beautiful women I knew. That was gross.
So if people still want to hold him in high esteem - they can make a lot of excuses for their "father", like "he's dead and he can't answer for himself" or "how do you know these woman aren't lying?"
Craig was a jerk - anyone who stuck around TWI for as long as we did knew it. It was no surprise when the first law suit came out. It figured.
I think VP being the original "Daddy MOG" makes his molestation of young women harder for a lot of people to accept - so they are more likely to excuse it rather than believe it.
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
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oldiesman
I do think there's something to be said about the above, especially from those who knew him and didn't experience evil, but good from him. There's a viewpoint that says, "why take personally another person's alleged evil experience, when he did right by me."
I think alot of ex-way people fall in this category, and don't feel obligated to jump on the proverbial finger-pointing bandwagon, which may explain why there are so many who don't post.
[This message was edited by oldiesman on December 29, 2003 at 6:02.]
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shazdancer
Agreed, Oldiesman. Many people can't comprehend that the man who was nice to them, or who had nice things to say about God, could possibly have evil intent toward others. And that is exactly what a predator hopes you will feel. It makes it easier for him to have access to his victims. It also makes it easier for him to live with himself.
How many priests molested little altar boys over the years? We had one in our town, and I can't tell you how many people came forward in the local paper to support him. He couldn't possibly have done it, not our man of God, they said. Then came the discovery that he played fast and loose with the collection plate in another diocese. Oopsie.
Regards,
Shaz
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GarthP2000
So is Hitler. ..... and your point is? .....
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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detour
Dear Linda Carter
There is more than rumor here that VP used
young women for his benefit. You are foolish
to think that many women that were used by
VP or others will not be anything but upset
by your attitude. It did happen.
Let us not forget that.
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Galen
oldiesman:
I feel that you have largely ex-plained my P.O.V.
"There's a viewpoint that says, "why take personally another person's alleged evil experience, when he did right by me."
I dont mean in any way to down-grade or lessen the victim's plights though things that I have said in the past have certainly been taken that way. Many victims feel so awful that any other view point is taken as a defense. And those victims do have that right, I do not intend to take away or dis-credit their pain. Which is why I have never used 'alleged' in describing those people's experiences. I know that from serving as a M.P. when someone is telling of how they have been victimized, to say 'alleged' sounds like an insult. I do have mean to have insulted any victims here on GreaseSpot.
I think that I more correctly feel:
"why take personally another person's evil experience, when he did right by me."
Otherwise I would have to really hate the US Navy for how many men's lives they have totally ruined; all while they did okay by me.
I never thought of VPW as "Thee man of G-d". I thought that he taught that any and all of us, while we are standing of G-d's Word and holding it forth, ARE men of G-d.
I dont think that such a 'title' ever became common until after LCM took control of things.
". . . those who knew him and didn't experience evil, but good from him."
I did not know VPW personnaly, I was just a common twig coordinator, not a boot-licking leader-wannna-be.
VPW was a minister of a church, would found a 'hook' that multiplied his evangilism. Un-like the Catholics priests he did not claim to be celebite while he was boinking the congregation. Un-like the Baptists minister he did not use the tithe to pay for prostitutes. Un-like the Methodists minister he did not use the tithe to pay for weapons for the Nicaragian-Contras.
VPW copied other people's stuff, and was given too much power over other people's lives that it corrupted him.
I have never seen LCM as anything other than a power-hungry dictator.
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excathedra
they both make me sick
?
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shazdancer
Dear Galen,
What if it were the reverse, and you were the one hurt by someone in the Navy. Would you want others to validate your experience, come to your aid, perhaps expose the perpetrator, even bring him to justice if necessary?
What if they all turned aside and said, "But he was nice to me...?"
The Catholic priests, the Baptist ministers, etc. etc. who perpetrate evil should be dealt with. Many of them are now being dealt with because someone brought their error to light. Victims are getting justice, others are having their feelings validated. Churches are changing policies because someone exposed the error.
Some people were abused by what Wierwille did. Others ruined their lives by doing what he taught. I am not proposing that we dig up Wierwille's bones and hang him in effigy. I am saying that we should expose the error, so that people can begin to heal. Those people are your brothers and sisters in Christ. Are you willing to let your sister continue to suffer, and your other sisters continue to be misused, because it didn't happen to you?
I am not.
Regards,
Shaz
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Raf
Dear Linda,
Have we met? Your name rings a bell, and not just because of that TV show from the 70s. I'm thinking of a ride from Silver Bay to the Bronx. If it's you, send me an e-mail!
God Bless You and welcome to the Greasespot Cafe. I'll get you some coffee.
The Living Epistles Society
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excathedra
signed,
a boot licking wanna be leader who knew him personally
;)-->
?
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LG
As long as you?ve been around, if you had half a grain of honesty, you?d quit this crap. You constantly distort what others say, both their words and their meaning. Nobody has attempted to discuss ?every sin and bad habit? of anyone. Also, No GreaseSpot posters have made claims about themselves anything like the claims Wierwille made about himself. I?m confident in saying that none have harmed anywhere near the number of people that Wierwille harmed, and that few have come close to harming any people to the degree that Wierwille harmed many.
If someone holds himself up to be one of the great men of God of the past two thousand years*, and if some people believed that, it is more than fair to examine both his life and his works.
*Anyone who claims that God Himself taught him His Word like it hadn?t been known since the first century is claiming to be one of the great men of God of the past two thousand years.
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LG
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JustThinking
I can appreciate Galen's POV even though I've had close ones hurt by others too. It was very well said. Galen, I didn't take any justification of their behavior from your post at all. I took it as simply recognizing that your experience was different.
Personally, I never met VPW so have no strong, direct feelings either way. However, I see a lot of evidence of his actions and treat them emotionally like I would anyone who has done great harm. It comes as part of my compassion for my fellow man. (Wow, that's a phrase that TWI had stamped out of my vocabulary) Joseph Stalin and co. had most of my family executed. Do I dwell on it? No. Does it affect me? Yes, in some ways. Would I put a bullet in his head if he were alive? Probably. Even though he too was "just a sinner." (Just kidding about that last bit!)
For those who may read into things, I am NOT advocating violence. Just expressing a strong feeling. I think people like that deserve justice not revenge. How satisfying it was to see Saddam Hussein, for example, cowering in a hole. Beats making him a glorious figure in death. IMO, if LCM did these things, my prayer would be that justice would be served.
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socks
Piece of a sidebar to a tangent that may be relevant or not...
IMO how anyone views VPW (or anyone else who attempts to function as a pastor, teacher, overseer, etc. to the church) has to include the overall standards for that kind of work and those kinds of "jobs". I think Timothy was referenced above and those things that Paul told Timothy would certainly apply. Why did he tell him...because as time went on and the church grew there would be increased need for service and help to the followers of Jesus Christ, of all kinds. Well, here we are, perhaps much further down the line than Paul saw, but nevertheless the standards of Timothy are applicable. (as well as so other things too, of course).
VPW, like so many others, was self-employed. He started his own church, organization, ministry whatever you want to call it. He hung out his shingle and opened for business. How that organization was set up was determined him. The whole concept of the Board of Trustees as a governing body for the Way was supported by him. Yes, there were "leaders" meetings up the ying yang for region, limb, area, department coordinators held by him, but anyone who ever attended any of those knows that the doctrinal direction of the Way wasn't determined by the concensus of that group. Direction was very well crafted to support the overall themes and interests set forth by the prez of the Way. Right or wrong, that's the way it was, with the "Way Tree" system as the primary means to communicate.
Point - nothing was set up within the Way to collect, evaluate or assess the performance of the President in detail. No performance criteria, other than "what the Word says", and no means of redress if it was felt that the "Word" wasn't being reflected properly in performance unless you want to count writing him personally - no one else knows and there's nothing requiring VP to respond - or publically discussing it with him, to which he could simply dismiss you or deface the validity of your claims in other ways.
Short version - One man, one Boss, Answerable to No One, other than his brother, his closest supporter, and uh, God.
This experience in the Way taught me that's not a good way to do things. Within the constraints of anyone's own authority it's always possible to cover up our own mistakes or excuse our own behavior. The more open things are, through both personal accountability and through processes, the more our behavior can be honestly evaluated. And look at the benefit! Perhaps VPW would have ended his endeavors in a more constructive and dynamic note than where he did.
I think anyone can see that the qualifications to serve the church in a trusted, offical capacity requires above average tenacity, honesty and meekness. Without those things it's a meat grinder of a world of hurt. It would be hard to see VPW in any other light than someone who needed the kind of help the church itself can provide. By shielding himself from that, he suffered and others did too. Getting up close and personal with the things of God is an honor and a privilege. When that's forgotten and abused, your day will go very, very dark indeed.
baby's calling me home,
she keeps on callin' me home....
(boz scaggs)
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excathedra
and the position is similar to, say, a counselor. you have this trust already that they are going to "help" you -- which makes it very difficult -- when you're betrayed
?
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Oakspear
If what folks say about Wierwille is "rumors without evidence", Martindale falls into the same category, with one exception. He admitted to a "one-time consensual affair".
In my opinion, Wierwille covered his foot better than Martindale did, he presented himself to the masses better, he played the role of our "father in the Word" to the hilt, and orchestrated things so that even questioning him became taboo.
Martindale, evidently thought that the conferring of the skunk pelt
:P--> gave him the same aura of holiness that Wierwille cultivated over decades. Martindale therefore made no effort to appear wise and loving; he was the MOG, so that was that. He did not "work the crowd" like Wierwille did, so he appeared as he was, a jerk.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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excathedra
father skunk
raised son skunk
and son skunk took the stink and ran with it
pew
?
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Dot Matrix
Linda
I was in a great twig and then ran a tender twig prior to the corps. If that was my only experience with TWI I would be very defensive of VPW. After all, it was the PFAL class that helped me out of confusion at that time and the fellowships that gave me the "family love" I needed. If all I saw were tender times, I would be a Weirwille fan unable to handle hearing anything negative about him. I would even use the "he is dead and cannot defend himself" defense of him.
In a way, I wish I was still sheltered from a lot of what happened behind closed doors, as I believe when I saw what laid behind the doors, it shattered the sweetness forever when I think of TWI. Not that I wanted the sweetness to change, but I found out "what was in the box is not what was painted on the box" so to speak. Like the expression "shattering of innocence" you cannot go back and be innocent again.
Because of my good experience in twig and running fellowships I wanted to go be one of God's committed corps. I wanted to give up my house and money and commit my life to serving God and loving his people.
Only when I got there VPW called me in the coach and was naked. He presented himself to me and asked me to do something to him and I refused.
What I found out was in the corps there was a group within the group that was very different. Some smoked pot, the married people "blessed" the single people sexually "to make them feel like a woman" or to "bless a man of God". The inside of the box was toxic.
And I did confront VPW while he was alive as did Ralph D. and others. He was beyond reproof regardless of how meek he said he was at large meetings. He always made it sound as if we could approach him with "chapter and verse" and we would be considered. That was not true.
This inner circle sinned and believed that they lived above the word of God. It was described to me as a higher plane and only people who "could handle it" were invited to partake. Anyone who objected or reproved their behavior were considered someone who "stumbled" at their freedom in their walk with Christ. Therefore, there was no way to correct them, they exalted themselves as gods deciding what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 3:5).
As a matter of fact when a Reverend was behaving in a manner that was not acceptable, i.e., getting drunk, bring home people from bars and having sex with them ?to get their needs met?, I reported the person. I figured it would help them and it was the right thing to do. Well, I was almost thrown out of the corps and had to go see Craig. When I saw him he asked me, ?Do you know what you did wrong?? I thought heck no! He said, ?I opened my mouth and this was stuff that needed to be in a lock box.?
So when VPW sent for me I thought I would tell him what was going on in his ministry. I figured he would stop it. So, I walked in, ready to tell him what the minister was doing and how Craig told me I was wrong for talking about it! And there VPW sat ? naked. What a shock. Then, I knew he was the one behind the weirdness. And I followed up on it with him and did correct him with the Bible. He would not listen. Later, he told me that I need to learn when to shut-up and not talk about things that should not be talked about.
My ninth corps friend also was reproving the ?secret doctrine? with her research paper and was told by VPW to stop working on her subject which was ?Adultery?.
I have shared this before but I do again for you Linda. Your instincts maybe to call me a liar. Especially if you had a nice twig and never went beyond that level.
There are others you can speak with if you want to know what was really happening. Karl K wrote a book on it. If you believe Ralph D to be a stand up guy and know how to reach him, he?ll tell you and perhaps you will consider his words.
You can go back through threads and see many accounts on what happened. I do not fault you for having a hard time with what was really going on. It is frustrating when a person hears it for several years and does not relinquish their position that VPW was some kind of innocent guy who may be slipped up and had a few consensual affairs. That is the ?spin? put on it to combat the truth.
Woman confronted VPW all along and either left the ministry or the corps or were slandered by TWI and tossed out.
I know one girl in the corps who was stuck having to ?service? the MOG on a regular basis. Well, she was having a nervous breakdown over it. So, what did TWI do? They told the corps she could not handle her position on the field so she was being replaced and brought back to HQS. To straighten her out. She gets back to HQS. And the source of her breakdown was there! Him and his doctrine of devils. He continued to touch her even when she did not want to be touched. And MOG made sure nobody would listen to her by telling everyone at a meeting that she was f?d up corps. He isolated her. It was awful for her. But I knew she wasn?t lying cause they tried to ?get? me.
This is tough to take if you came from a sweet twig. But you may want to read some of the archived stuff or seek out some other early corps ? a lot of them knew and if they left they may be willing to talk with you about it.
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm
You may just choose to think of anyone who says anything you do not like about VPW is a liar. I hope you are more open than that.
Long gone - you da man!!
:)-->
Socks, Oak and Shaz! Good posts!
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on December 29, 2003 at 19:50.]
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