After all that went down I'm happy to hear you've ended up following Christ.
You've listed most of the post-Way burning issues. For me, some of them remain aruable points, some not. For a few years after my departure I tried sorting out the true from the false until I had an epiphany...and rejected all of my Way teachings whole cloth. My view is that, while some of what was taught may be right, it is hopelessly woven together with fatal error. Rather than try to suss it out (an impossible task, imo) I purged te old lump and sought Christ much like it sounds you're doing.
In so doing, some of what I believed in Da Way has come back to me through other avenues, and some has remained dead in the water. But none of what I hold to is tied to the corrupt system. Make sense?
the bible reads we only "know in part, and we prophesy in part" in 1 Corinthians 13:9-10
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
other wise none of propecy ever wrote or spoken was whole or complete
its like painting a picture of a house and saying you can see the whole house but you can not
each step you take to the left of right gives you a new point of view of the same house
but lets look at your topics
1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune?
God is more than we can understand so the best we can do is see many parts of the nature of God and Christ Jesus
other wise both sides are only part right
2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit?
man is Body, Soul and Spirit but he is other things too
3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here)
yes its legit but there more to it than some think because there were tongues in OT times
4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other?
both plus
5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right?
not the way the way taught because its more about love
6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it?
there are so many that would take a long time but the first ministry was the ministry of sin
7. Prayer. What is prayer really?
talking at or too God or Christ
8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower.
he was human
9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI?
you love them no matter what
10. Salvation. How?
first by seed then by birth because of living love
11. End result. Heaven or something else?
it depends on how you want to believe
12. Rapture. Every believer or some?
not in the word of God
you might think about begining one tread a week on each question with what you believe right now and see if others agree or not
Welcome to Grease Spot, Jafin!....Waysider is right – Grease Spot is a great resource for your questions. Check out the tutorials and get into the Search feature. Look at the top bar of Grease Spot – over to the right, next to Help is Search – click on Search and then click on More Search Options.
I was in TWI for 12 years – left in 1986. I was in the Corps - and the biggest factor in my leaving was the ever-growing mountain of questions piling up in my head as I watched upper leadership scrambling through crisis management after Passing of a Patriarchcame out. Some of my first questions were so simple - yet were instrumental in activating a critical thinking process: How could this happen to a ministry that has more of the rightly divided Word than any other group on earth? How could this happen to people who operated all nine manifestations? Where is God in all this mess?
I've been a Christian all my life – and a big lesson I've learned from my TWI experience is to CHECK OUT ALL the DETAILS MYSELF! In TWI, we were encouraged to absorb rather than analyzeinformation. After leaving, I devoted a lot of time to exploring systematic theology. I believe a student of the Bible can develop good critical thinking skills from practicing the wisdom found in the book of Proverbs – exemplified in the things Jesus said and did in the gospels….And there's SO MUCH to learn from other folks - I've listed below some books that I have found helpful and like Grease Spot is great for the value of another viewpoint.
1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune?
2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit?
3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here)
4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other?
5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right?
6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it?
7. Prayer. What is prayer really?
8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower.
9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI?
10. Salvation. How?
11. End result. Heaven or something else?
12. Rapture. Every believer or some?
Thank you all who respond to this. I really am curious. I'm also open if anyone has any others they would like to mention that were big way matters.
-Jafin
Jafin,
First of all welcome to the Spot!
Second, as Waysider has mentioned the majority of these topics have been discussed at great length on the board and many were fairly recently. If you use the search button on the top right of your screen you can probably track down quite a few using only a few key words.
I could answer your questions with my opinion but that would only be my personal beliefs. Often, actually, usually individuals need to explore these questions for themselves so that they can reach conclusions that they are comfortable with. Those beliefs will change as you learn and grow. Some however are set in stone.
The law of believing = recieving...not!
Speaking in Tongues- is a gift given to every man as God wants. In other words not everyone has it, but it is real for those that do.
Prayer is you giving thanks and praise to God and also for supplication to God.
Body, Soul and Spirit? The words that VP said were different and not at all the same...not they are used interchangeably throughout the OT.
Rapture, the Bible is fairly clear here, everyone goes that is born again.
Salvation only comes from the acceptance of Christ.
End result, heaven for believers.
Now for my opinion:
Trinity or no? I say no. To me they are very distinctly different entities.
Baptism, water or spirit? I go with spirit but am not opposed to water if it helps a person "believe" better.
VP man of God or malicious seeker follower? False prophet.
Excommunication/ Mark and Avoid? The manner in which twi did this was wrong. It is easier in life to hang out with folks that share your basic belief system and moral values. Should you simply stop talking to any others? No, that is not a Christian attitude.
There they are, take 'em or leave 'em. As I said there have been lots of threads about these and there is even a section on the front page with 10 of the top errors of PFAL, most of which I agree with. Enjoy! This place is full of information and great folks!
And after all of that, don't you eventually have to wonder if there's any credibility to THE BIBLE to begin with?
No, I guess not. At least it seems like that issue isn't given a great deal of thought amongst believerville inhabitants.
The normal procedure is to simply accept the supposed authority of The Scriptures without resorting to any sort of scrutiny. We wouldn't wanna be found to be questioning GOD now would we?
Whatever. Enjoy your stay on the planet. But don't feel bound to accept the nonsensical, kay? Always worked for me, but YMMV...
1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune?
2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit?
3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here)
4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other?
5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right?
6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it?
7. Prayer. What is prayer really?
8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower.
9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI?
10. Salvation. How?
11. End result. Heaven or something else?
12. Rapture. Every believer or some?
What do you think?
There are a wide variety of opinions here at GS, some well thought out and some not, some biblical, some not. Some posters have retained a belief in large amounts of what Wierwille taught and some have thrown out everything he taught. Some of us have even (gasp) decided that the bible is no longer our "rule of faith and practice".
For every single thing that you brought up, there are reasonable people who believe both sides and can eloquently argue their position.
My advice, for what it's worth, is to critically examine everything that you were taught and reevaluate it, even the basics, like is there a God and is the bible divinely inspired. Whatever answers that you end up with will be worth much more because they will be yours.
This is my first post and... well frankly, I'm curious.
Anyways, here are the topics I'm curious about:
1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune?
2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit?
3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here)
4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other?
5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right?
6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it?
7. Prayer. What is prayer really?
8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower.
9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI?
10. Salvation. How?
11. End result. Heaven or something else?
12. Rapture. Every believer or some?
Thank you all who respond to this. I really am curious. I'm also open if anyone has any others they would like to mention that were big way matters.
-Jafin
1. Yes, Jafin. The Lord Jesus is God and He is part of the Trinity. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. I started out in the trinity camp, left when I went
into Stalag TWI, and when the Lord Jesus brought me out of it, He very much informed me of HIS DEITY. I no longer question this point anymore.
2. First of all, TWI had it all wrong. The Scriptures, 1 Thess 5:23 place it in the correct order. It should be SPIRIT, SOUL AND THEN BODY.
3. SIT is legitimate. It is a form of pure worship, praise, prayer or anything that the Holy Spirit needs for you to do, etc. He is the One who is now
comforting, teaching, exhorting etc etc.
4. You should experience both. There is no particular order. I was raised RC and so I received water baptism at 4 years old. My Mom returned at that time.
At 6 years, I received the Holy Spirit baptism and sang in tongues. Didn't know what it was and surely no one in the RC church was teaching about this at
the time. The RC's didn't have a HS reformation until late 60's and early 70's. I didn't experience SIT again until the session 12 of PFAL. After I left TWI
the Lord eventually led me to be re-baptized, for what this symbolizes is your intention to follow the Lord Jesus Christ for the remainder of your life. It is a public proclamation and it also symbolized your personal crossing of the Red Sea and the enemies being left behind as you come out of Egypt.
5. Yes and NO. We are to proclaim what we ask for, but what we ask for should Glorify the Heavenly Father. This is not so that you can get a new Caddy.
6. The nature of ministry is whatever the Holy Spirit will have you do at any particular time. I have come to find out, ministry is not an office per se, but
it is a Way of Life.
7. Prayer is your personal tete a tete with the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Don't you have conversations with your Father and/or Mother? This is your bonding and growth of this relationship.
8. He may have started out fine, but took a wrong turn somewhere, most likey with pride. I believe when he started stumbling with sexual sins, (time?) he
eventually blocked out the Lord Jesus Christ and this is why he rejected the Trinity and also said we should not pray to the Lord Jesus. Most likely, the
Lord Jesus was putting heavy conviction upon him and he was rejecting it and didn't want to repent and the rest is history.
9. It depends if what they are saying is Biblical or not. I believe VPW ex-communicated people, because they were speaking the WORD of GOD to him and
he didn't want to repent. Therefore, get them out of your life and you don't have to deal with the repentance.
10. Aahhh. One place, he still had right and that not by himself. Look indeed at Romans 10:9-10...CONFESS THE LORD JESUS as CHRIST and believe
indeed that the Heavenly Father has RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.
11. I believe that heaven is the end result. The Scriptures affirm that the Lord is faithful and is working on each and every one of us. If somehow we miss it
it will be because we reject his workmanship upon us. I have come to the conclusion (could change as the HS leads) that our SPIRITS are saved, and our
SOULS are being saved and our BODIES will be saved.
12. Rapture? Still struggling with that one. I used to be a die-hard pre-millennialist, and now ... Amillennialism sometimes has a lot to say and so does
pre-wrath....we might just have to wait until it is upon us.
Hope this helps in some measure.
Blessings upon you in your search for the Lord Jesus.
The Scriptures adjure us to seek him while he may be found.
I think Oakspear has it right. You have to dig into it for yourself in order for it to mean anything. There are no unequivocal biblical answers for any question you might want to ask, especially the big over-arching questions in your list.
Which is probably why I'm more attuned to George in these matters and don't much bother with scripture any more.
Here are some things I have learned since being out...I am sure not all will agree, but I believe it anyway...
1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune?
I believe God is the Father and Jesus is His Son, the firstborn from the dead. You are what your father is - human, right? I believe Jesus rose and became what His Father is - A God - Spirit Being. As to the holy spirit, I believe that is the angel Gabriel. If you look at accounts of the holy spirit telling folks stuff, it is usually Gabriel speaking for The LORD.
2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit?
I believe Man is from the earth - Earthy. He is essentially dirt. Dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return. Before man was a living lump of earth, God breathed into him and he became a living soul. I do not believe the soul is something independant from the body - they are one and the same. The spirit in man is breath life, literally. Many will say they are Born Again of God's spirit, all the while discountiing that Jesus told Nicodemus everyone that is born again can move as the wind unseen. I can't do that - Can you ar anyone you know?
3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here)
Read my responses on the SIT thread floating around here. It may be legit, I have done it. But I don't know what I am saying. Has anyone ever taped their dialog in tongues and had it professionally translated? There's got to be someone that can do that...
4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other?
I believe in water baptism. On "The Day of Pentecost" Many beleived and were baptized in water. It is a recurring theme throughout Acts and I think the way was very subtle in talking people out of this. The word says after they were baptized they were added to the church. You do the math.
5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right?
I do not believe this formula. In theory, sure. But you have to understand something, you reap what you sow. If you try really hard to live a holy life, you will receive the benefits of it. If you are a no good lowdown dirty rotten dawg, you will also reap the benefits.
6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it?
I got out before you could brush your teeth good - I am unclear on that as a doctrine. Ministry...Don't bury your talent, kid. If God gives you the ability to calm down troubled souls (They are alive, right) then you need to do that. If you can help people in any way, that is your minisrty. Do it in light of the word.
7. Prayer. What is prayer really?
You are gonna love this one. Daniel prayed, right? The way he did it was to face Jerusalem, on his knees. You see this all through the Bible, people literally bowing down in prayer. I believe prayer is formost worship. Telling God how wonderful he is. Talking to Him. There is a COmmandment that says do not bow down to them, to worship them. Makes me think of the xmas tree. You put your gifts UNDER it, then bow down to get them. It doesn't mean much to us today, but bowing down to something is a big deal in the Bible. There is a record in Kings I think, of a man that was healed and he asked the man of God to ask God to forgive him when he helped his pagan master bow down to his own god - He wanted the God of Israel to know he was just doing his job and it was nothing personal.
8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower.
Know man knoweth the heart of a man, save that man and God. By their fruits ye shall know them...It's your call. I cannot say.
9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI?
The Bible clearly teaches in 2nd Corinthians that if a brother doesn't keep the Law, we are to avoid them. Until that brother repents. If it takes forever, then it takes forever. How many times do we forgive our brother? And we do forgive, lest satan get his foot in our house. We are not to be ignorant of his devices - Hardheartedness.
10. Salvation. How?
If you love Jesus, Keep His Commandments. He that endures till the end shall be saved. It ain't over till the fat lady (Last trumpet) Sings.
11. End result. Heaven or something else?
The Bible, not one time, says anything anywhere about anybody living in Heaven. Jesus said Zion is my desire and my long dwelling place, and He has long desired to live in Jerusalem.
12. Rapture. Every believer or some?
No rapture. Not like you think.
Thank you all who respond to this. I really am curious. I'm also open if anyone has any others they would like to mention that were big way matters.
This is my first post and... well frankly, I'm curious.
I was born in 1985. My parents were very involved in the music ministry part of TWI. We had a 'twig' meeting in our house once a week every week. Around 1989 my parents left the way in the midst of all that was happening. They continued to meet with the 'branch' coordinator or whatever who also left around the same time for about another year and then left completely and haven't continued meeting with any Christians since. While I was only 5 years old when my parents almost completely severed their connections with TWI, I grew up with many of the way teachings and doctrines engrained in my head until my parents started to sort out some of what they believe to be true and what was false.
Now I'm 22 years old and I'm in a bit of a conundrum. It seems that the vast majority of what I grew up learning I'm discovering is false. I've been meeting with some Christians for the last 6 or so years and really growing. There are only a few things that seem to stay the same and I'm wondering how many are finding many of the things true or false as well. I have a list of topics below, a couple of which I have found true, most of which I think are false and I really want all your input. I think there's a lot in me that I don't know about that's been hurt by what happened in TWI and to my parents... amazing what can get to you in your formative years.
Anyways, here are the topics I'm curious about:
1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune?
2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit?
3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here)
4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other?
5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right?
6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it?
7. Prayer. What is prayer really?
8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower.
9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI?
10. Salvation. How?
11. End result. Heaven or something else?
12. Rapture. Every believer or some?
Thank you all who respond to this. I really am curious. I'm also open if anyone has any others they would like to mention that were big way matters.
-Jafin
Hi Jafin,
Welcome to Greasespot,
What a good post.
The questions you asked are some of the main ones that many of us have asked ourselves (and others)
after once being followers of the teachings of TWI.
No one can really answer these questions for you and I am not suggesting that anyone that has responded
is trying to do that. What I mean is, you will have to take the time and expend the effort to seek the answers
for yourself.
As you can see by the responses so far, many of us have found quite a bit that was taught in PFAL/TWI to be
doctrinally wrong (to one degree or another). But we don't all agree. If we did, it would be kind of scary IMO.
The process of sorting through all of the questions and getting some answers is not instantanious and can be
very challenging. It can be very uncomfortable to question a belief system that has been ingrained into us for a
good part of our lives. It can be even more uncomfortable to realize/admit that some, if not lots of it, was
wrong or even harmful ....and to change. ( like the man with the bicycle with crooked handle bars)
Probably all of the things you mentioned have been discused here "Doctrinal" in detail. I suggest you read these archived
discussions, not necessarily to get the answers, but more to get an idea of how folks went about getting the answers
for themselves.
For me, a natural reading of the Bible, (void of commentaries, margin notes , word studies and preconcieved ideas)
opened up a lot of things and helped answer a lot of questions. When I came upon a verse or section that one of TWI doctrines
hung on, not presuming TWI to be either right or wrong, I prayed for understanding and asked if that is what it really meant.
If it was something from PFAL, I looked to see if VPW actually used the "keys" that he taught. Many times I found that he did not
especially in regards to context. But most important, IMO, is to allow God/ holy spirit to guide you and to be an integtral
part of the learning / relearning process. The answers will come in time.
Jafin, It's enlightening to hear someone in this day at your age hungry for truth.
I have nothing really new to add to what's been said, except I do have a hard time trusting anyone who thinks they have the answers. Even my own self. I may have my beliefs for sure, but the last thing I want to do is try to convince someone else I'm right. What if I'm not? After leaving TWI in '86 after 15 years, Corps grad and WOW survivor, It took me ignoring stuff for awhile before I trusted the fact that I had a brain and a spirit that God gave me for insight and critical thinking. Unlike some others here, I have found it extremel ;helpful to get different opinions and feedback, just to make sure I'm not missing a big point. I, too, love to read books about things and am even trying to write one about death, but the neatest book I've read this year is Prayer by Philip Yancey and also What's so Amazing About Grace, by the same author. Informative and, yet, comforting.
Jafin, It's enlightening to hear someone in this day at your age hungry for truth.
I have nothing really new to add to what's been said, except I do have a hard time trusting anyone who thinks they have the answers. Even my own self. I may have my beliefs for sure, but the last thing I want to do is try to convince someone else I'm right. What if I'm not? After leaving TWI in '86 after 15 years, Corps grad and WOW survivor, It took me ignoring stuff for awhile before I trusted the fact that I had a brain and a spirit that God gave me for insight and critical thinking. Unlike some others here, I have found it extremel ;helpful to get different opinions and feedback, just to make sure I'm not missing a big point. I, too, love to read books about things and am even trying to write one about death, but the neatest book I've read this year is Prayer by Philip Yancey and also What's so Amazing About Grace, by the same author. Informative and, yet, comforting.
How is your research coming? Slowly I am sure. There is a lot of information just on this site alone, and that is before you go checking out other places.
I really hope you find your answers and it really is refreshing to see you looking.
Believe it or not I think that George makes a very valid point. One should clarify to themselves if they really are going to accept that there is a God and that the Bible is reliable enough to give it any veracity in their life. The Bible gets its authority in a person's life from that person themself.
First order is always on the house. What can I get ya, Hon?
Like the sage advice you've already received here - I, too, encourage you to read, research and check out what's out there and then come to your own conclusion.... my conclusion changes almost daily as I continue to read, learn and participate in discussions. I love it! I also love the freedom of not having to try to believe or blindly accept what someone else tells me I should believe or accept as the absolute truth.
If you want to see a great discussion about the foundational things we were taught by The Way International - This Link will take you to one of the best I've read.
We're a diverse group here and there are amazingly intelligent individuals here. Ask questions, hop from booth to booth getting to know us and enjoy.... just don't put your gum under the counter near the register. That's where I keep my stash.
After all that went down I'm happy to hear you've ended up following Christ.
You've listed most of the post-Way burning issues. For me, some of them remain aruable points, some not. For a few years after my departure I tried sorting out the true from the false until I had an epiphany...and rejected all of my Way teachings whole cloth. My view is that, while some of what was taught may be right, it is hopelessly woven together with fatal error. Rather than try to suss it out (an impossible task, imo) I purged te old lump and sought Christ much like it sounds you're doing.
In so doing, some of what I believed in Da Way has come back to me through other avenues, and some has remained dead in the water. But none of what I hold to is tied to the corrupt system. Make sense?
Welcome...
Allow me to echo Evan's comments.
Anybody coming out of TWI needs to, in my opinion, completely break from the teachings of TWI. Utterly.
And then study from a fresh perspective...not from within the TWI paradigm...but using honest research techniques:
Define what it is you wish to find out (e.g., what is Jesus' nature)
Gather data from multiple appropriate sources...for example, to answer the above, you should look at:
the scriptures (both OT and NT)
what Jesus' contemporaries believed about him
what those who were closer to Jesus' time on earth believe about him (i.e., patristic writings). While those writings are not scripture, they will indicate what the author of the writing believed...(and, since the writings were preserved for up to 2,000 years, what a considerable group of folks believed at the time, as well)
what scholars have concluded over time (with that type of source, you can see if they effectively proved their point or not)
what other scholars say today (you can look at the methodology of the scholar to see if they formed conclusions based on a reasonable, logical, basis)
[*]Form your hypothesis (What you think you should conclude from the above)
[*]Try to disprove your hypothesis...using your data above.
[*]Publish your theory and your proof (for example, on the doctrinal board at gsc) for critical review (trust me, if there are holes in your theory, there are multiple folks who will be happy to help you out here.
There are a whole, wide variety of beliefs here, from Catholic to Orthodox to Evangelical to Lutheran to Calvinist to Agnostic to militant Atheist to Neo-Pagan to Wiccan to Jewish to so on and so forth. You will get, to put it mildly, a diversity of views...
Good luck with it. If you are still looking (i.e., this wasn't a drive-by posting), I look forward to seeing what you find.
Isn't it great that we all have different opinions! I think the world would be such a boring place if we all agreed.. Then what would we have to really talk about.. If all the presidential candidates all had the same beliefs.. What a boring election.. In fact, why even have them!
I'll share my opinion as long as you promise not to take it for anything more than 1 out of a few billionth's opinion that even when taken in comparison with a poll of 100 still can't give you the answer of what is right/wrong/true/fact/ or fiction but just as Obama was suppose to lose Iowa and win New Hampshire in the pre-caucus polls, neither actually came true. That's not to say that none of my opinions could be true, just don't rest much weight on them, because that's trust, and why would you put trust in man(or women!)? But if you put trust in God and that what he had written in the scriptures is true then you will trust the saying that "He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."
1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune?
My opiinion, Scripture can be taken either way. I and my Father are one. One entity, one in mind. No scripture 100% proves one or the other. But I tend to believe due to the lack of evidence that they are one entity (i.e. Trinity/Triunity), that I would much rather take it for the simplicty that it says, God our Father, and His Son, our Lord; rather than try and cram some man's theology into it.
2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit?
I know I have a body.. Beyond that.. It could just be semantics.. What is a soul? What is a spirit? I have thoughts! If that's soul, then I am a soul. I am alive, is that spirit? Then I'm a spirit too. If we regard spirit as something you can't know by the 5 senses, well then, count me as not knowing and therefore can't answer! For who knows if the spirit of the beast goes downward and the spirit of man goes upward (Ecclesiastes)? I don't mean that to say that the spirit of God doesn't rest in us. Course I left the TWI thinking of being born with your own spirit that you can control for purposes such as SIT and prophecy at your own whim. And I regulate things of God's spirit, the spirit he places in men, just as he took of Moses and divided among the 70, to the workings of God to which are at His control and not mine.
3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here)
Depends on whether you pur your trust in God and that He had what's written in Corinthians wrote. I don't believe it is as TWI taught. Just as I said previously that I don't believe that the spirit God places in men is yours to do with as you please, but rather God's spirit given to man as down payment for the fullness of that which is to come, the flesh putting on incorrcuption.
4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other?
(My opinion of course) But if God is our Heavenly Father who loves us more than we as parents could love our own children, then ask yourself how much would you require of your children to be in favor with you? But those who come to God love Him, and that's all He's asked from the beginning, was that we return to Him, not to some doctrine or law or religios ritual or legalism. Nothing more than you would desire if you had kids that they just return to you! Spirit or Water.. Well, you can have fun and be baptized (immersed) in water every day if you take a bth/shower! And Spirit.. Well, see previous and previous previous opinions.
5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right?
Yeah sure.. We don't need God.. Just believe.. I've been believing to win the lottery, but someone has been out believing me every time! Darn those good at believing, why can't they give us unbelievers a chance!
6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it?
The word ministry means serve. Do you serve? Do you give? As a Christian we are to be imitators of God who gave. Gave His Son, gave us life, Every good and perfect gift comes from Him.. He gave.. What are doing? Do we give or do we take? If a "minister" isn't giving but rather hoarding and taking, well, they ain't ministering. If they have but others with them don't and have need, but they are unwilling to meet that when able, well, there ya go.
7. Prayer. What is prayer really?
Many kinds of prayer . I personally hate the word. Too religious.. I just call it my time to converse. Going back to God as our Father who loves us greater than we could love our own. Ask any parent what is the single biggest thril they get from their kids. It's when they spend time with them one on one. Ask a parent what they miss most when their kids leave as adults and get married. It's the time they used to spend with them. What do you think is the biggest thing God desires most? Do we spend time with him, or is it just religious actions at a church building with everyone else.
8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower.
I think Jesus said it best, You shall know them by their fruits.. His actions definitely spoke louder than words.
9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI?
I meet with others in my home every week, some are Mormons on their 'mission', some are ex-TWI, some are involved in other churches of all different association. Yet we all meet and enjoy each other's company and fellowship. Not go to fellowship, but fellowship with each other. It's a hoot. We don't all agree, but we enjoy each other's company and together we help one another and meet one another's need.
10. Salvation. How?
(My opinion as has been), God desires nothing more than that his sons return home and spend time with Him. Who shall turn none away. If you don't want to go, don't. He never forsakes any, it's only us who forsakes Him.
11. End result. Heaven or something else?
Whatever my Father has in mind. I don't particularly care. (I believe the new earth with the new heavens will be, and it will be on earth)
12. Rapture. Every believer or some?
All those who returned back to God. Why would he force those who don't want to go. Free will to the end.
Well thank you everyone for your kind posts! I've had a very busy month so this is the first chance I've had to come back to reply.
I forget exactly who, but several of you have said that the best thing to do is to get into the Word and find out for myself. And that's exactly what I've been doing. About 3 or so years ago I prayed probably the most honest prayer in my life. I said "Lord, I want to forget everything I've learned and I want You to show me Yourself." I believe it's in large part that prayer that I am pursuing Christ. All you've said has been helpful, mostly from the perspective of "Yes! I'm not the only one!"
I'm curious though... does anyone know how many other younger Way kids (more or less like myself) are here?
Thanks again everyone!
The grace of Christ, the Love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all!
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TheEvan
After all that went down I'm happy to hear you've ended up following Christ.
You've listed most of the post-Way burning issues. For me, some of them remain aruable points, some not. For a few years after my departure I tried sorting out the true from the false until I had an epiphany...and rejected all of my Way teachings whole cloth. My view is that, while some of what was taught may be right, it is hopelessly woven together with fatal error. Rather than try to suss it out (an impossible task, imo) I purged te old lump and sought Christ much like it sounds you're doing.
In so doing, some of what I believed in Da Way has come back to me through other avenues, and some has remained dead in the water. But none of what I hold to is tied to the corrupt system. Make sense?
Welcome...
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year2027
God first
Beloved Jafin
God loves you my dear friend
let me first say welcome to the board
now let me add a bit about truth
the bible reads we only "know in part, and we prophesy in part" in 1 Corinthians 13:9-10
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
other wise none of propecy ever wrote or spoken was whole or complete
its like painting a picture of a house and saying you can see the whole house but you can not
each step you take to the left of right gives you a new point of view of the same house
but lets look at your topics
1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune?
God is more than we can understand so the best we can do is see many parts of the nature of God and Christ Jesus
other wise both sides are only part right
2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit?
man is Body, Soul and Spirit but he is other things too
3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here)
yes its legit but there more to it than some think because there were tongues in OT times
4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other?
both plus
5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right?
not the way the way taught because its more about love
6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it?
there are so many that would take a long time but the first ministry was the ministry of sin
7. Prayer. What is prayer really?
talking at or too God or Christ
8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower.
he was human
9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI?
you love them no matter what
10. Salvation. How?
first by seed then by birth because of living love
11. End result. Heaven or something else?
it depends on how you want to believe
12. Rapture. Every believer or some?
not in the word of God
you might think about begining one tread a week on each question with what you believe right now and see if others agree or not
the group of people here will share their imput
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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waysider
Hi, Jafin
Welcome
There is a wealth of information here that addresses the very questions you have posed.
Two items, in particular, that have been discussed here recently are:
1.The "law" of believing".
2.VPW's true nature.
Something that helps in understanding GSC, is to start at the very beginning, on the home page.
Read some of the articles and documents.
Next, look at some of the tutorials for new posters.
It takes a bit of time to approach it that way, but the forums make more sense if you do.
There is also a search feature here which may be of interest to you.
waysider
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T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Jafin!....Waysider is right – Grease Spot is a great resource for your questions. Check out the tutorials and get into the Search feature. Look at the top bar of Grease Spot – over to the right, next to Help is Search – click on Search and then click on More Search Options.
I was in TWI for 12 years – left in 1986. I was in the Corps - and the biggest factor in my leaving was the ever-growing mountain of questions piling up in my head as I watched upper leadership scrambling through crisis management after Passing of a Patriarch came out. Some of my first questions were so simple - yet were instrumental in activating a critical thinking process: How could this happen to a ministry that has more of the rightly divided Word than any other group on earth? How could this happen to people who operated all nine manifestations? Where is God in all this mess?
I've been a Christian all my life – and a big lesson I've learned from my TWI experience is to CHECK OUT ALL the DETAILS MYSELF! In TWI, we were encouraged to absorb rather than analyze information. After leaving, I devoted a lot of time to exploring systematic theology. I believe a student of the Bible can develop good critical thinking skills from practicing the wisdom found in the book of Proverbs – exemplified in the things Jesus said and did in the gospels….And there's SO MUCH to learn from other folks - I've listed below some books that I have found helpful and like Grease Spot is great for the value of another viewpoint.
Understanding the Bible by John Stott
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Bible-John-R-Stott/dp/0801012295/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199627893&sr=1-15
30 Days to Understanding the Bible by Max Anders
http://www.amazon.com/Days-Understanding-Bible-Max-Anders/dp/1418500143/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199627775&sr=1-4
What to do on Thursday: A Layman's Guide to the Practical Use of the Scriptures by Jay Adams
http://www.amazon.com/What-Do-Thursday-Practical-Scriptures/dp/0964355671/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199628487&sr=1-1
Decision Making and the Will of God by Garry Friesen & J Robin Maxson
http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Making-Will-God-Alternative/dp/1590522052/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199628561&sr=1-1
Step by Step: Divine Guidance for Ordinary Christians by James Petty
http://www.amazon.com/Step-Guidance-Ordinary-Christians-Resources/dp/0875526039/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199628787&sr=1-1
Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible by James Sire
http://www.amazon.com/Scripture-Twisting-Twenty-Cults-Misread/dp/0877846111/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199628090&sr=1-1
Beyond Seduction: A Return to Biblical Christianity by Dave Hunt
http://www.amazon.com/BEYOND-SEDUCTION-RETURN-BIBLICAL-CHRISTIANITY/dp/B000IO8YUQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199628334&sr=1-1
Critical Thinking: Tools for Taking Charge of Your Professional and Personal Life by Richard Paul and Linda Elder
http://www.amazon.com/Critical-Thinking-Taking-Professional-Personal/dp/0130647608/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199628889&sr=1-3
Believer's Bible Commentary by William MacDonald
http://www.amazon.com/Believers-Bible-Commentary-William-MacDonald/dp/0785212167/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199629099&sr=1-1
Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary Old & New Testament by Kenneth Barker & John Kohlenberger
http://www.amazon.com/Zondervan-NIV-Bible-Commentary-Abridgment/dp/0310578507/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199629231&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Zondervan-NIV-Bible-Commentary-Abridgment/dp/031057840X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199629231&sr=1-1
Christian Theology by Millard Erickson
http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Theology-Millard-J-Erickson/dp/0801021820/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199629517&sr=1-1
More Than Redemption: A Theology of Christian Counseling by Jay Adams
http://www.amazon.com/More-Than-Redemption-Christian-Counseling/dp/0875520405/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199629598&sr=1-1
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Eyesopen
Jafin,
First of all welcome to the Spot!
Second, as Waysider has mentioned the majority of these topics have been discussed at great length on the board and many were fairly recently. If you use the search button on the top right of your screen you can probably track down quite a few using only a few key words.
I could answer your questions with my opinion but that would only be my personal beliefs. Often, actually, usually individuals need to explore these questions for themselves so that they can reach conclusions that they are comfortable with. Those beliefs will change as you learn and grow. Some however are set in stone.
The law of believing = recieving...not!
Speaking in Tongues- is a gift given to every man as God wants. In other words not everyone has it, but it is real for those that do.
Prayer is you giving thanks and praise to God and also for supplication to God.
Body, Soul and Spirit? The words that VP said were different and not at all the same...not they are used interchangeably throughout the OT.
Rapture, the Bible is fairly clear here, everyone goes that is born again.
Salvation only comes from the acceptance of Christ.
End result, heaven for believers.
Now for my opinion:
Trinity or no? I say no. To me they are very distinctly different entities.
Baptism, water or spirit? I go with spirit but am not opposed to water if it helps a person "believe" better.
VP man of God or malicious seeker follower? False prophet.
Excommunication/ Mark and Avoid? The manner in which twi did this was wrong. It is easier in life to hang out with folks that share your basic belief system and moral values. Should you simply stop talking to any others? No, that is not a Christian attitude.
There they are, take 'em or leave 'em. As I said there have been lots of threads about these and there is even a section on the front page with 10 of the top errors of PFAL, most of which I agree with. Enjoy! This place is full of information and great folks!
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George Aar
And after all of that, don't you eventually have to wonder if there's any credibility to THE BIBLE to begin with?
No, I guess not. At least it seems like that issue isn't given a great deal of thought amongst believerville inhabitants.
The normal procedure is to simply accept the supposed authority of The Scriptures without resorting to any sort of scrutiny. We wouldn't wanna be found to be questioning GOD now would we?
Whatever. Enjoy your stay on the planet. But don't feel bound to accept the nonsensical, kay? Always worked for me, but YMMV...
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Oakspear
What do you think?
There are a wide variety of opinions here at GS, some well thought out and some not, some biblical, some not. Some posters have retained a belief in large amounts of what Wierwille taught and some have thrown out everything he taught. Some of us have even (gasp) decided that the bible is no longer our "rule of faith and practice".
For every single thing that you brought up, there are reasonable people who believe both sides and can eloquently argue their position.
My advice, for what it's worth, is to critically examine everything that you were taught and reevaluate it, even the basics, like is there a God and is the bible divinely inspired. Whatever answers that you end up with will be worth much more because they will be yours.
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Cynic
Jafin,
Yes, Jesus Christ is God and God is triune.
I cannot get involved in time-demanding posting right now, but suggest the following for some theological reading:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds.htm
http://www.monergism.com
http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/lor_boettner...sthegospel.html
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brideofjc
1. Yes, Jafin. The Lord Jesus is God and He is part of the Trinity. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. I started out in the trinity camp, left when I went
into Stalag TWI, and when the Lord Jesus brought me out of it, He very much informed me of HIS DEITY. I no longer question this point anymore.
2. First of all, TWI had it all wrong. The Scriptures, 1 Thess 5:23 place it in the correct order. It should be SPIRIT, SOUL AND THEN BODY.
3. SIT is legitimate. It is a form of pure worship, praise, prayer or anything that the Holy Spirit needs for you to do, etc. He is the One who is now
comforting, teaching, exhorting etc etc.
4. You should experience both. There is no particular order. I was raised RC and so I received water baptism at 4 years old. My Mom returned at that time.
At 6 years, I received the Holy Spirit baptism and sang in tongues. Didn't know what it was and surely no one in the RC church was teaching about this at
the time. The RC's didn't have a HS reformation until late 60's and early 70's. I didn't experience SIT again until the session 12 of PFAL. After I left TWI
the Lord eventually led me to be re-baptized, for what this symbolizes is your intention to follow the Lord Jesus Christ for the remainder of your life. It is a public proclamation and it also symbolized your personal crossing of the Red Sea and the enemies being left behind as you come out of Egypt.
5. Yes and NO. We are to proclaim what we ask for, but what we ask for should Glorify the Heavenly Father. This is not so that you can get a new Caddy.
6. The nature of ministry is whatever the Holy Spirit will have you do at any particular time. I have come to find out, ministry is not an office per se, but
it is a Way of Life.
7. Prayer is your personal tete a tete with the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Don't you have conversations with your Father and/or Mother? This is your bonding and growth of this relationship.
8. He may have started out fine, but took a wrong turn somewhere, most likey with pride. I believe when he started stumbling with sexual sins, (time?) he
eventually blocked out the Lord Jesus Christ and this is why he rejected the Trinity and also said we should not pray to the Lord Jesus. Most likely, the
Lord Jesus was putting heavy conviction upon him and he was rejecting it and didn't want to repent and the rest is history.
9. It depends if what they are saying is Biblical or not. I believe VPW ex-communicated people, because they were speaking the WORD of GOD to him and
he didn't want to repent. Therefore, get them out of your life and you don't have to deal with the repentance.
10. Aahhh. One place, he still had right and that not by himself. Look indeed at Romans 10:9-10...CONFESS THE LORD JESUS as CHRIST and believe
indeed that the Heavenly Father has RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.
11. I believe that heaven is the end result. The Scriptures affirm that the Lord is faithful and is working on each and every one of us. If somehow we miss it
it will be because we reject his workmanship upon us. I have come to the conclusion (could change as the HS leads) that our SPIRITS are saved, and our
SOULS are being saved and our BODIES will be saved.
12. Rapture? Still struggling with that one. I used to be a die-hard pre-millennialist, and now ... Amillennialism sometimes has a lot to say and so does
pre-wrath....we might just have to wait until it is upon us.
Hope this helps in some measure.
Blessings upon you in your search for the Lord Jesus.
The Scriptures adjure us to seek him while he may be found.
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JumpinJive
I think Oakspear has it right. You have to dig into it for yourself in order for it to mean anything. There are no unequivocal biblical answers for any question you might want to ask, especially the big over-arching questions in your list.
Which is probably why I'm more attuned to George in these matters and don't much bother with scripture any more.
-JJ
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RachelYsrael
Here are some things I have learned since being out...I am sure not all will agree, but I believe it anyway...
1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune?
I believe God is the Father and Jesus is His Son, the firstborn from the dead. You are what your father is - human, right? I believe Jesus rose and became what His Father is - A God - Spirit Being. As to the holy spirit, I believe that is the angel Gabriel. If you look at accounts of the holy spirit telling folks stuff, it is usually Gabriel speaking for The LORD.
2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit?
I believe Man is from the earth - Earthy. He is essentially dirt. Dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return. Before man was a living lump of earth, God breathed into him and he became a living soul. I do not believe the soul is something independant from the body - they are one and the same. The spirit in man is breath life, literally. Many will say they are Born Again of God's spirit, all the while discountiing that Jesus told Nicodemus everyone that is born again can move as the wind unseen. I can't do that - Can you ar anyone you know?
3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here)
Read my responses on the SIT thread floating around here. It may be legit, I have done it. But I don't know what I am saying. Has anyone ever taped their dialog in tongues and had it professionally translated? There's got to be someone that can do that...
4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other?
I believe in water baptism. On "The Day of Pentecost" Many beleived and were baptized in water. It is a recurring theme throughout Acts and I think the way was very subtle in talking people out of this. The word says after they were baptized they were added to the church. You do the math.
5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right?
I do not believe this formula. In theory, sure. But you have to understand something, you reap what you sow. If you try really hard to live a holy life, you will receive the benefits of it. If you are a no good lowdown dirty rotten dawg, you will also reap the benefits.
6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it?
I got out before you could brush your teeth good - I am unclear on that as a doctrine. Ministry...Don't bury your talent, kid. If God gives you the ability to calm down troubled souls (They are alive, right) then you need to do that. If you can help people in any way, that is your minisrty. Do it in light of the word.
7. Prayer. What is prayer really?
You are gonna love this one. Daniel prayed, right? The way he did it was to face Jerusalem, on his knees. You see this all through the Bible, people literally bowing down in prayer. I believe prayer is formost worship. Telling God how wonderful he is. Talking to Him. There is a COmmandment that says do not bow down to them, to worship them. Makes me think of the xmas tree. You put your gifts UNDER it, then bow down to get them. It doesn't mean much to us today, but bowing down to something is a big deal in the Bible. There is a record in Kings I think, of a man that was healed and he asked the man of God to ask God to forgive him when he helped his pagan master bow down to his own god - He wanted the God of Israel to know he was just doing his job and it was nothing personal.
8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower.
Know man knoweth the heart of a man, save that man and God. By their fruits ye shall know them...It's your call. I cannot say.
9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI?
The Bible clearly teaches in 2nd Corinthians that if a brother doesn't keep the Law, we are to avoid them. Until that brother repents. If it takes forever, then it takes forever. How many times do we forgive our brother? And we do forgive, lest satan get his foot in our house. We are not to be ignorant of his devices - Hardheartedness.
10. Salvation. How?
If you love Jesus, Keep His Commandments. He that endures till the end shall be saved. It ain't over till the fat lady (Last trumpet) Sings.
11. End result. Heaven or something else?
The Bible, not one time, says anything anywhere about anybody living in Heaven. Jesus said Zion is my desire and my long dwelling place, and He has long desired to live in Jerusalem.
12. Rapture. Every believer or some?
No rapture. Not like you think.
Thank you all who respond to this. I really am curious. I'm also open if anyone has any others they would like to mention that were big way matters.
-Jafin
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Goey
Hi Jafin,
Welcome to Greasespot,
What a good post.
The questions you asked are some of the main ones that many of us have asked ourselves (and others)
after once being followers of the teachings of TWI.
No one can really answer these questions for you and I am not suggesting that anyone that has responded
is trying to do that. What I mean is, you will have to take the time and expend the effort to seek the answers
for yourself.
As you can see by the responses so far, many of us have found quite a bit that was taught in PFAL/TWI to be
doctrinally wrong (to one degree or another). But we don't all agree. If we did, it would be kind of scary IMO.
The process of sorting through all of the questions and getting some answers is not instantanious and can be
very challenging. It can be very uncomfortable to question a belief system that has been ingrained into us for a
good part of our lives. It can be even more uncomfortable to realize/admit that some, if not lots of it, was
wrong or even harmful ....and to change. ( like the man with the bicycle with crooked handle bars)
Probably all of the things you mentioned have been discused here "Doctrinal" in detail. I suggest you read these archived
discussions, not necessarily to get the answers, but more to get an idea of how folks went about getting the answers
for themselves.
For me, a natural reading of the Bible, (void of commentaries, margin notes , word studies and preconcieved ideas)
opened up a lot of things and helped answer a lot of questions. When I came upon a verse or section that one of TWI doctrines
hung on, not presuming TWI to be either right or wrong, I prayed for understanding and asked if that is what it really meant.
If it was something from PFAL, I looked to see if VPW actually used the "keys" that he taught. Many times I found that he did not
especially in regards to context. But most important, IMO, is to allow God/ holy spirit to guide you and to be an integtral
part of the learning / relearning process. The answers will come in time.
Glad you're here.
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irisheyes
Jafin, It's enlightening to hear someone in this day at your age hungry for truth.
I have nothing really new to add to what's been said, except I do have a hard time trusting anyone who thinks they have the answers. Even my own self. I may have my beliefs for sure, but the last thing I want to do is try to convince someone else I'm right. What if I'm not? After leaving TWI in '86 after 15 years, Corps grad and WOW survivor, It took me ignoring stuff for awhile before I trusted the fact that I had a brain and a spirit that God gave me for insight and critical thinking. Unlike some others here, I have found it extremel ;helpful to get different opinions and feedback, just to make sure I'm not missing a big point. I, too, love to read books about things and am even trying to write one about death, but the neatest book I've read this year is Prayer by Philip Yancey and also What's so Amazing About Grace, by the same author. Informative and, yet, comforting.
Hope to talk with you again. Good hunting!
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irisheyes
Jafin, It's enlightening to hear someone in this day at your age hungry for truth.
I have nothing really new to add to what's been said, except I do have a hard time trusting anyone who thinks they have the answers. Even my own self. I may have my beliefs for sure, but the last thing I want to do is try to convince someone else I'm right. What if I'm not? After leaving TWI in '86 after 15 years, Corps grad and WOW survivor, It took me ignoring stuff for awhile before I trusted the fact that I had a brain and a spirit that God gave me for insight and critical thinking. Unlike some others here, I have found it extremel ;helpful to get different opinions and feedback, just to make sure I'm not missing a big point. I, too, love to read books about things and am even trying to write one about death, but the neatest book I've read this year is Prayer by Philip Yancey and also What's so Amazing About Grace, by the same author. Informative and, yet, comforting.
Hope to talk with you again. Good hunting!
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T-Bone
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Eyesopen
So Jafin,
How is your research coming? Slowly I am sure. There is a lot of information just on this site alone, and that is before you go checking out other places.
I really hope you find your answers and it really is refreshing to see you looking.
Believe it or not I think that George makes a very valid point. One should clarify to themselves if they really are going to accept that there is a God and that the Bible is reliable enough to give it any veracity in their life. The Bible gets its authority in a person's life from that person themself.
Good hunting.
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Belle
Well, welcome, Jafin!
First order is always on the house. What can I get ya, Hon?
Like the sage advice you've already received here - I, too, encourage you to read, research and check out what's out there and then come to your own conclusion.... my conclusion changes almost daily as I continue to read, learn and participate in discussions. I love it! I also love the freedom of not having to try to believe or blindly accept what someone else tells me I should believe or accept as the absolute truth.
If you want to see a great discussion about the foundational things we were taught by The Way International - This Link will take you to one of the best I've read.
We're a diverse group here and there are amazingly intelligent individuals here. Ask questions, hop from booth to booth getting to know us and enjoy.... just don't put your gum under the counter near the register. That's where I keep my stash.
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markomalley
Allow me to echo Evan's comments.
Anybody coming out of TWI needs to, in my opinion, completely break from the teachings of TWI. Utterly.
And then study from a fresh perspective...not from within the TWI paradigm...but using honest research techniques:
[*]Form your hypothesis (What you think you should conclude from the above)
[*]Try to disprove your hypothesis...using your data above.
[*]Publish your theory and your proof (for example, on the doctrinal board at gsc) for critical review (trust me, if there are holes in your theory, there are multiple folks who will be happy to help you out here.
There are a whole, wide variety of beliefs here, from Catholic to Orthodox to Evangelical to Lutheran to Calvinist to Agnostic to militant Atheist to Neo-Pagan to Wiccan to Jewish to so on and so forth. You will get, to put it mildly, a diversity of views...
Good luck with it. If you are still looking (i.e., this wasn't a drive-by posting), I look forward to seeing what you find.
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JeffSjo
Welcome Jafin,
Welcome to Greasespot and I hope your seeking is fruitful.
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TrustAndObey
Isn't it great that we all have different opinions! I think the world would be such a boring place if we all agreed.. Then what would we have to really talk about.. If all the presidential candidates all had the same beliefs.. What a boring election.. In fact, why even have them!
I'll share my opinion as long as you promise not to take it for anything more than 1 out of a few billionth's opinion that even when taken in comparison with a poll of 100 still can't give you the answer of what is right/wrong/true/fact/ or fiction but just as Obama was suppose to lose Iowa and win New Hampshire in the pre-caucus polls, neither actually came true. That's not to say that none of my opinions could be true, just don't rest much weight on them, because that's trust, and why would you put trust in man(or women!)? But if you put trust in God and that what he had written in the scriptures is true then you will trust the saying that "He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."
1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune?
My opiinion, Scripture can be taken either way. I and my Father are one. One entity, one in mind. No scripture 100% proves one or the other. But I tend to believe due to the lack of evidence that they are one entity (i.e. Trinity/Triunity), that I would much rather take it for the simplicty that it says, God our Father, and His Son, our Lord; rather than try and cram some man's theology into it.
2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit?
I know I have a body.. Beyond that.. It could just be semantics.. What is a soul? What is a spirit? I have thoughts! If that's soul, then I am a soul. I am alive, is that spirit? Then I'm a spirit too. If we regard spirit as something you can't know by the 5 senses, well then, count me as not knowing and therefore can't answer! For who knows if the spirit of the beast goes downward and the spirit of man goes upward (Ecclesiastes)? I don't mean that to say that the spirit of God doesn't rest in us. Course I left the TWI thinking of being born with your own spirit that you can control for purposes such as SIT and prophecy at your own whim. And I regulate things of God's spirit, the spirit he places in men, just as he took of Moses and divided among the 70, to the workings of God to which are at His control and not mine.
3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here)
Depends on whether you pur your trust in God and that He had what's written in Corinthians wrote. I don't believe it is as TWI taught. Just as I said previously that I don't believe that the spirit God places in men is yours to do with as you please, but rather God's spirit given to man as down payment for the fullness of that which is to come, the flesh putting on incorrcuption.
4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other?
(My opinion of course) But if God is our Heavenly Father who loves us more than we as parents could love our own children, then ask yourself how much would you require of your children to be in favor with you? But those who come to God love Him, and that's all He's asked from the beginning, was that we return to Him, not to some doctrine or law or religios ritual or legalism. Nothing more than you would desire if you had kids that they just return to you! Spirit or Water.. Well, you can have fun and be baptized (immersed) in water every day if you take a bth/shower! And Spirit.. Well, see previous and previous previous opinions.
5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right?
Yeah sure.. We don't need God.. Just believe.. I've been believing to win the lottery, but someone has been out believing me every time! Darn those good at believing, why can't they give us unbelievers a chance!
6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it?
The word ministry means serve. Do you serve? Do you give? As a Christian we are to be imitators of God who gave. Gave His Son, gave us life, Every good and perfect gift comes from Him.. He gave.. What are doing? Do we give or do we take? If a "minister" isn't giving but rather hoarding and taking, well, they ain't ministering. If they have but others with them don't and have need, but they are unwilling to meet that when able, well, there ya go.
7. Prayer. What is prayer really?
Many kinds of prayer . I personally hate the word. Too religious.. I just call it my time to converse. Going back to God as our Father who loves us greater than we could love our own. Ask any parent what is the single biggest thril they get from their kids. It's when they spend time with them one on one. Ask a parent what they miss most when their kids leave as adults and get married. It's the time they used to spend with them. What do you think is the biggest thing God desires most? Do we spend time with him, or is it just religious actions at a church building with everyone else.
8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower.
I think Jesus said it best, You shall know them by their fruits.. His actions definitely spoke louder than words.
9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI?
I meet with others in my home every week, some are Mormons on their 'mission', some are ex-TWI, some are involved in other churches of all different association. Yet we all meet and enjoy each other's company and fellowship. Not go to fellowship, but fellowship with each other. It's a hoot. We don't all agree, but we enjoy each other's company and together we help one another and meet one another's need.
10. Salvation. How?
(My opinion as has been), God desires nothing more than that his sons return home and spend time with Him. Who shall turn none away. If you don't want to go, don't. He never forsakes any, it's only us who forsakes Him.
11. End result. Heaven or something else?
Whatever my Father has in mind. I don't particularly care. (I believe the new earth with the new heavens will be, and it will be on earth)
12. Rapture. Every believer or some?
All those who returned back to God. Why would he force those who don't want to go. Free will to the end.
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Jafin
Well thank you everyone for your kind posts! I've had a very busy month so this is the first chance I've had to come back to reply.
I forget exactly who, but several of you have said that the best thing to do is to get into the Word and find out for myself. And that's exactly what I've been doing. About 3 or so years ago I prayed probably the most honest prayer in my life. I said "Lord, I want to forget everything I've learned and I want You to show me Yourself." I believe it's in large part that prayer that I am pursuing Christ. All you've said has been helpful, mostly from the perspective of "Yes! I'm not the only one!"
I'm curious though... does anyone know how many other younger Way kids (more or less like myself) are here?
Thanks again everyone!
The grace of Christ, the Love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all!
-Jafin
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