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Civil discourse and staying on topic


GrouchoMarxJr
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Hi, Jonny

Since we appear to be off-topic anyway---------

Have you been to Harp-L lately?

Someone started a thread a couple days ago called "harmonica and dancing women"

It's an invitation to share Stowwwwries about ladies who like to dance in front of the bandstand while you are trying to perform.

Harp on, Brother.

Ya know, I have a story that fits right in with that! I was playing about a month ago when a woman did that to me while I was playing. It was quite nice, really... :biglaugh:

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I have seen very few real trolls on this site. That term is usually used here for anyone that posts anything that is not in keeping with the group think that a small handfull of posters want to enforce on everyone else. And I am NOT speaking of the waitress's and busboy's either. The moderator's here do an excellant job.

Rick

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I see Dead People, er,.. I mean, I see Trolls....

Twinky, the definition of a Troll and Poser from the Urban Dictionary:

A Troll is one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a web board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

A Poser is one who attempts to appear to others as something they are not,..a charlatan.

I think we have both trolls and posers here, the trolls cause more damage.

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I said I have seen VERY FEW trolls here. I did not say there have not been any. However, that term get's used very frequently here whenver someone posts an opposing viewpoint. Same with terms like waybrain....all terms used to discredit anyone who disagrees with the status quo.

As far as posers, who is to make that distinction? Only way to do that would be to actually know the person. Aything else would be pure speculation.

Rick

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Well uh, no. The thread actually was about common decency and disagreeing without being a jerk about it. At least, that is how I took it. Not saying you or anyone else is, but that is what I thought the thread was about.

Trollish behavior is a rather uncommon thing on this site. If you don't believe me, look at some other forums. There are very few posters here who act like trolls, in my opinion. There may be some posters you don't agree with. There may be some you even have a strong dislike for. That does not make them trolls.

Rick

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I'm sure I'll see a few of my posts edited, as they should be... but I have a hard time seeing other people attacked on not jumping in... guess it's the opposite of what I was expected to do in twi...

but I my main point of wonderment is: some people refuse to believe people were victimized, and want to talk about the grand times they had, so why don't they just start their own threads? posting in a thread with the intention of correcting people's testimonies tends to put them on guard. in twi if leadership told you "this is why you did it" or "yeah I reamed the guy but he was possessed" you didn't question if you wanted to stay, and of course we wanted to stay because leaving meant horrible consequences... so we're out now and find a place where we can talk about what happened to us, but some people don't want to listen. that's ok, but they don't need to be defenders of twi's integrity, either. maybe they can just show some respect and let us talk. that would be nice.

I'm trying to respect the experiences of people who had a good time in twi, after all, everyone's experiences were different. some were much worse than mine, and I almost lost my son. some had great lives, I guess. they were the lucky ones... but I still wonder why they're here if it was all puppies and rainbows.

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Potato, I think that the people who experienced the harsh treatment, their testimony can be at odds with what another person wishes to believe or remember about twi.

It would be more comfortable to dismiss the accounts or discredit the one discussing it than to readjust ones opinions about a group that one has invested so much into.

I am with you, common courtesy, just let folks talk.

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Potato, I think that the people who experienced the harsh treatment, their testimony can be at odds with what another person wishes to believe or remember about twi.

It would be more comfortable to dismiss the accounts or discredit the one discussing it than to readjust ones opinions about a group that one has invested so much into.

I am with you, common courtesy, just let folks talk.

Rascal, I agree with you. I don't like to see people on either side called liars.

It's been pointed out many times, but bears repeating. Just because YOU had a wonderful time in twi doesn't mean it was that way for everyone. Conversly, just because YOU were treated horribly in twi doesn't mean it was that way for everyone.

So to find common ground, EVERYONE needs to have respect for everyone else. I agree that if someone posts about something horrible that happened to them in twi, that no one should come right behind that person and say "Well, *I* never saw that happen and everything was just peachy for me". But that goes both ways. If a person starts a thread about the good times, the other camp (just a figure of speech, ok? :) ) needs to leave it alone as well.

But what the heck do I know. I used to be in a cult. :)

Rick

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Same with terms like waybrain....all terms used to discredit anyone who disagrees with the status quo.

I'll say. Actually years ago one of our long time posters used that term on herself...just to describe a time when she went out of her way to help someone who had done something repulsive...implying to me that going beyond tha call of duty was waybrain.

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I'm sure I'll see a few of my posts edited, as they should be... but I have a hard time seeing other people attacked on not jumping in... guess it's the opposite of what I was expected to do in twi...

but I my main point of wonderment is: some people refuse to believe people were victimized, and want to talk about the grand times they had, so why don't they just start their own threads? posting in a thread with the intention of correcting people's testimonies tends to put them on guard. in twi if leadership told you "this is why you did it" or "yeah I reamed the guy but he was possessed" you didn't question if you wanted to stay, and of course we wanted to stay because leaving meant horrible consequences... so we're out now and find a place where we can talk about what happened to us, but some people don't want to listen. that's ok, but they don't need to be defenders of twi's integrity, either. maybe they can just show some respect and let us talk. that would be nice.

I'm trying to respect the experiences of people who had a good time in twi, after all, everyone's experiences were different. some were much worse than mine, and I almost lost my son. some had great lives, I guess. they were the lucky ones... but I still wonder why they're here if it was all puppies and rainbows.

Potato,

I wonder the same thing because it reminds me of how we were shut down if we tried to have an honest conversation about what was going on. We were either reamed out at worst or at least dismissed with "what's the profit?" If the person couldn't use those two things to avoid acknowledging what happened then they would claim amnesia. An exercise in frustration to try to get any type of resolution with these people. I think it's curious that some people still imitate that kind of behavior.

But then the people who let me talk and honestly acknowledged that things were wrong were a different story. I found that I was able to let it go and not be angry about it anymore, no matter how bad their behavior had been. I didn't feel the need to talk about it anymore because we had handled it.

For me, I don't appreciate it when people would rather have me think I'm crazy and imagined everything than just say something simple like "yeah, that wasn't right."

But sometimes people don't have that in them to give, for various reasons.

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Having been on the recieving end of some of your *extremely viscious verbal assaults*, Jonny.....I am at a loss as to understand why you would castigate Groucho for the same thing :(

Why not start over fresh...as was the point, rather than using this thread that is intended to encourage civil discourse, to instead instigate yet more uncivil behavior?

Are you looking for an apology Jonny? Are you offering any?

Groucho made excellent points, and I personally think that great progress (maybe even because of this thread) has been made as far as being able to communicate without having someone constantly climbing you like a tree for your pov.

Edited by rascal
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Rascal, I agree with you. I don't like to see people on either side called liars.

It's been pointed out many times, but bears repeating. Just because YOU had a wonderful time in twi doesn't mean it was that way for everyone. Conversly, just because YOU were treated horribly in twi doesn't mean it was that way for everyone.

So to find common ground, EVERYONE needs to have respect for everyone else. I agree that if someone posts about something horrible that happened to them in twi, that no one should come right behind that person and say "Well, *I* never saw that happen and everything was just peachy for me". But that goes both ways. If a person starts a thread about the good times, the other camp (just a figure of speech, ok? :) ) needs to leave it alone as well.

Very good post IMO. Just because someone starts a thread on good experiences they had doesn't mean they are saying someone's bad experience didn't happen just because they dont mention it in that post. Just because someone posts about bad things that happened doesnt mean they are saying someone's good experiences didn't happen. It is when people are afraid that just posting about the good negates the bad, or the other way around, that they feel they have to jump in and in some way state or plainly imply that others are liars.

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...and I think it's worth mentioning that being civil doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with someone.

As far as I know, independant thought is encouraged here. Presenting contrasting views is part of honest dialogue and debate. Someone loves twi, someone else hates it...each present their point of view. That's all fine until it becomes personal. Each poster is responsible for what they type...seems simple to me.

Even in this thread, I was accused by Jonny of being dishonest...I thought that my post was clearly "tongue in cheek" and presented in good humor. :) ...I didn't think too many folks would take it literally...but did I retaliate against Jonny?...Nope!

The literal truth is that, although Jonny himself is a fine man, I don't care much for his stories. I'll refrain from elaborating as to why I don't like them...but that's ok...there's no reason for anyone to get mad. Life would be boring if we all had the same opinions. Actually, I enjoy reading the pros and cons of different opinions...and at times, I enjoy expressing my own. :spy:

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If we had 20 or 30 more moderators...maybe :asdf:

The small number of moderators have different ways of addressing these issues. I won't attempt to speak for the other mods, but I don't have time to visit every forum on a regular basis, let alone all the threads and certainly not all the posts. I edit or delete things as I see them. Not the most efficient way mebbe, but I'm not paid much <_<

Pawtucket said;

Well that certainly seems to be fair, really. But I ask you, what if someone tells a story of a fine and wonderful time that they had in The Way Corps or as a WOW and then gets lambasted as a "Wierwille apologist" with a "sophomoric attitude" because they have chosen to focus on the "good times" (rather than the bad times) that they had in The Way Ministry or in The Way Corps?

What if the person who tells a story with a positive twist is accused of "Way brain-ism" which is tantamount to de-railing the mission of the Grease Spot Cafe and therefore is still an "automaton" and akin to Wierwille and his "evil minions"? Will you not tolerate those kind of attacks also? I can't count the times I have told a positive story here about times in The Way and then been outright attacked for doing so. I hope the wind blows both ways if there is to be a more intensive amount of moderation (censorship?) here...

I personally have deleted several posts recently where the attacker was anti-TWI and the attackee was waxing nostagic about TWI experiences
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Moddishwasher

that is why pawtucket wants posters to report posts, I think so then you can hone in on the ugly ones i suppose.

"the more eyes the better", was what he said. ask for a raise maybe, Is it really all about the love for you these days ?

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I thought that my post was clearly "tongue in cheek" and presented in good humor.

Well there is nothing wrong with that approach, though we have to be ready not to blame the other person if our attempts at "tongue in cheek" humor strike a raw nerve and get an unexpected reaction. Chances are there is a good reason for that reaction that we dont know about or know about but dont take the time to think through before saying/posting.

I dont know if that is the case here...I post this response because Groucho's remark reminded me of an occasion not too long ago where at attempt at light humor that I made went sour.

There is a quality of being ready to listen to something from someone else that doesnt fit perfectly with what yoo think. There is another quality of understanding that asking a question is not necessarily doubting what someone says but might be an honest attempt to learn more. Groucho has those qualities.

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Interesting thread... Jonny, you write about what kind of adventures??

All kinds! I have enjoyed telling of funny things that happened to me in the way corps. Also of incidents that have happened out here in real life, funny or not so funny. There is a thread down in "The Soap Opera Continues" that I started about a local young lady by the name of "Honnalee" who was wearing a shirt where she works that says "made in vagina". I shared the incident which caused no small stir here at the GSCafe, and I was accused by many of being a young gal chaser and adulterer. It was quite a raucous thread. There was opinions on it that ranged from A to Z. And now that this "new civility" seems to have come upon us here, I am wondering how the mods would have dealt with that thread had it been started today.

Personally, I am enjoying the new and more civil Groucho Marx Junior! :)

Edited by Jonny Lingo
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