well.. perhaps the strategy would be to start a new thread, where those who are blugeoning each other with the proverbial lead pipe will follow along to..
but that doesn't work most of the time either..
I've tried..
maybe it's a calling. "Here am I, blugeon me"
I'm sure it's no secret that some folks are getting a little tired of all the drama, personal attacks and general ugliness...
I'm starting to think: that's why SOME people come here to begin with..
Many folks enjoy reading the pros and cons on a given subject but nobody likes it when it turns personal...people stop reading and the thread dies.
I dunno. When it hits twenty, thirty.. forty pages.. maybe the said thread holds a different, useful purpose.
And after forty some pages, what do you expect? People have already forgotten what the brawl is really about..
but really.. I know the forum rules.. try not to keep it "personal".. but how does one do that, and really *connect* with other people..
at some point it IS *personal*.. and may I add- REAL.
jumping in at the fortieth page or so.. and asking Paw to save the "honor" of a thread is kinda futile.. I've seen some try recently. It just seems to me.. any RELEVANT (at least to the topic at hand) discussion has happened on the first three pages or so.
Maybe.. the dynamics of things demand that one start a NEW thread..
not to ask that one intervene.. "fix" a woebegone thread..
take what's "relevant" to one's way of thinking.. or inquiry.. and RUN WITH IT..
but really.. I know the forum rules.. try not to keep it "personal".. but how does one do that, and really *connect* with other people..
at some point it IS *personal*.. and may I add- REAL.
:)
I dunno...there can be a fine line between saying that the post is stupid and the poster is stupid...I suppose that common respect is out of the question...I guess I'm just thinking out loud.
I will gladly wear either description, or both, if or when they apply..
Sometimes though.. common sense would suggest to me.. that after thirty nine pages on the same subject.. I mean.. what's gonna be said has already been said..
I am honestly at a loss. I don`t know how to participate here any more. It`s like this little contingent has taken it upon themselves to discredit anyone who posts contrary to their liking.
The post or information isn`t addressed, but rather what is wrong with you personally that you would hold that opinion.
If you defend yourself against the accusations, it takes the thread off topic. If you ignore the posters that are trying to disrupt, the accusations get more rediculous and outragious....and you are persued from thread to thread...being sniped at.
Defending yourself doesn`t work, fighting back doesn`t work, shutting up is what they want you to do :(
Walk away from this site? I wrestle with that as well....would leaving be more beneficial for everyone? Is staying detrimental?
I agree, Groucho. Of course most of the people making personal attacks think they aren't, that it's those other people attacking them.
One thing that might help is if some people would take a few minutes to actually think before posting, and try to be sure they understand the other person's point before reacting in anger or hurt. Some GSers are very clear in what they say, and others are sometimes hard to understand. I see people in the latter category getting jumped on unfairly sometimes.
This seems like all too typical an exchange around here:
GSer 1. "I disagree. That wasn't what I experienced."
GSer 2: "There you go, calling me a liar!"
GSer1: "I didn't say you lied, I'm saying that wasn't my experience."
GSer2: "Why are you so cruel? Why do you have to call people liars?!?"
GSer1 (now pi$$ed): "I didn't call you a liar, but you need to get back on your meds!"
GSer1 and 2 both have fallen victim to letting their anger get the best of them, and the conversation screeches to a halt.
There are many "pairs" of posters who are constantly at each other. If I'm reading a thread and see those pairs of names, I often scroll right past. It will be the same, shrill accuations thrown back and forth that I've read hundreds of times before, so why bother?
But back to Groucho's point: Frankly, I think there's about as much chance for civil discourse about some of the hotter topics on GS as there is for world peace, but I'd love to be proven wrong!
i thought we werent supposed to be Greaspots after midnight..but you take a change on becoming one if you post anything...if you post, someone is bound to come by and slam your thought's up against a blackboard...
I know more folks would post if they felt it a safe place..GSC didnt always have this type of atmosphere...
I suppose that common respect is out of the question...
perhaps.
I think a lot of people don't consider that there is a living, human being on the other end of *that* opinion that may be offered at the time..
that's the "problem" with this format of communication..
Many offer themselves FREELY to this mix of humanity.. a lot drop their inhibitions.. think it is a safe place to do so.. reveal things we wouldn't tell our aunt or uncle..
along with a modicum of anomymity..
as far as common respect is concerned, I TRY to give it, and not expect it.
The hams have a "fix" to this kinda problem.. the person is called "net control".
It's the guy who starts the "thread" so to speak. If somebody wants to speak, it's through him. He reigns over the discussion, keeps it relevant, keeps the contributers in line..
Some threads here, I've seen the net control guy starts something and just jumps ship.. show up every few days or so, to see how things are going..
Danny, good point about calling someone you know a butt vs. calling an anonymous poster a butt. (Yeah, I'm a good speller, but I can't operate a stud gun to save my life. It takes all of us with our various longsuits, eh? I love you, Danny, just the way you are.)
Years ago a regular GS poster was being (IMO) particularly rough on a brand-new poster. I asked if she would speak (write) so harshly if she were using her real name. She then twisted that to say I was threatening to reveal her identity, which I certainly wasn't. She side-stepped my question. WOULD she speak so harshly under her own name? She never replied to that question.
The anonymity of the Internet is a two-edged sword. One one hand, it gives some people the courage to stand up for themselves that they might not have otherwise. We all know what the "on the other hand" is.
I agree with your original point. It's why I usually stay away from the politics threads or maybe post one or two thoughts then leave when I can tell it's not worth it.
What your saying is you believe in the posters here and they have integrity etc...
and i believe that is true many are on the web site because they like and believe in one another.
thats cool. carry on.
I am addressing the point of anyone coming to this site and getting any real help or answers from the threads.
the threads are messy often full of name calling gossip hear say and just plain confusion, without having been here for a long time or knowing the inside scoop of who is who (just like twi) your at risk of colliding with any number of rabid posters who are to say the least not nice and just plain paranoid of anyone outside the circle. So it appears not much more than a gossip magazine with funny storys.
and it is unrelenting in its attack of any one "new" or percieved as not fitting in, if they do not comply with the well ingrained pecking order.
[edited for getting personal]
that is what people read and that is why people do dismiss this place. Not to metion the fact if a decent conversation does start it quickly turns into he/she attacked the victim and she is mean am not, childish games that never end and become far to much bother to read.
The sad part is those who love this place the most are the very ones who make it impossible to be be a place that welcomes or wants any question of their idea of what it is.
[edited for getting personal]
so i think most are just saying let them have it and ex is right it isnt safe.
I cut and pasted myself!
this is from a post I wrote in cman thread titled "truth" i think it works in this thread better.
if you want go read that thread and it will explain my thoughts on this topic much better.
I'm sure it's no secret that some folks are getting a little tired of all the drama, personal attacks and general ugliness...
...Wouldn't it be nice if folks would express their thoughts on the topic at hand, rather than attacking other posters. Far too many threads start off good and then disintigrate into a few people throwing insults at each other...and that's really too bad...
...
...I think it would be really nice if folks could make the effort to stay on topic and avoid personal attacks...and thoughts on this?
Yes, it would be really nice if folks could stay on topic.
Ignoring the personal attack seems to be the best way to avoid denigrating what could have been a good discussion. It is quite possible to make a point and to contribute something of value to a conversation without stooping to the level of the attacker.
So someone disagrees with a poster and personally insults them..... ignore the insult and, if there was nothing in the post about the actual topic at hand, then ignore the whole darn post. I don't see why that's so hard. :unsure:
If you defend yourself against the accusations, it takes the thread off topic. If you ignore the posters that are trying to disrupt, the accusations get more rediculous and outragious....and you are persued from thread to thread...being sniped at.
I've said this before and I'll say it again..... the typical accuser's reputation is such that there is no need to defend yourself and, of course accusations will get worse because they are trying to get attention and a response. No one actually believes the accusations anyway. We're not stupid, we can see what's going on. :)
Defending yourself doesn`t work, fighting back doesn`t work, shutting up is what they want you to do
No. They want to get a rise out of the person they are attacking. They have fun being a bully. They don't care what the message is - they don't care what the topic is. They are merely getting off on making someone upset and hurting their feelings.
The best thing to do is to post whatever we want that is relevant to the topic at hand and ignore the peripheral b.s.
but the threads go off course naturaly in the form of a discussion.
what one may consider "b.s." is helpful to another right?
some want a strict police force that dictate how a thread should go.. stay on MY topic my opinion IS THE TOPIC.
and the anggry posters take over.
well then who is right and wrong?
Mr. Hammeroni thinks the one who began the thread should police it, and that would work if all had the same amount of time and devotion dedicated to typing on the puter and can sit here for days on end and comment, most do not have that type of life!
(I know hopefully i wont either soon)
not to metion that core of "friends" who back one up on a thread.. that can and is overwhelming and confusing and darn frightening if one just wants to start a topic .
the flurry of that happening friends and players getting in on the action of personal attack on just one thread can go pages long in just a few short hours and no one knows where the whole thing began and what the heck was the original idea!
and no one wants to read it for the most part to find out.
to much effort, but what it does it silents anyone who disagrees with those who are the majority here and who have the same sect as the power base.
What I find rather funny and ironic sometimes, is that there are times when there is an (admittedly heated often) discussion/argument, and some posts are made that somebody gets offended by, and the somebody gives the "C'mon! Let's keep it civil here! You're being personally offensive!", ... and maybe, just maybe, that 'offender' might be making a valid point, even amongst statements that are personally offensive. Not always, but I find it rather interesting that the "you're being offensive" accusation has been (often I think) used as a means of oversimplistically dealing with the content of a post that they don't like.
Quite a few times, both posters on either side of the argument/issue are posting what they believe, and (if you'll also notice) _both_ are about as emotional/passionate about their stands, both the 'offender' and the 'offendee'. Yes Virginia, they are. For example:
1) The Democrat (or liberal) GSer debating the Republican (or conservative) GSer
2) The Christian GSer debating the atheist GSer ;)
3) Even the TWI/spinoff GSer debating the anti-TWI/spinoff GSer
As a matter of fact, I think there are less of those who post purely to offend than people realize. They are indeed there, but I think they take up the minority.
And think about this. Greasespot, by its very nature as being (as one of its functions) a pressure valve to 'release steam' for those who were taught time and time again to be 'likeminded' (read: be a bunch of little goosesteppers for V. P. Fuehrer), ... ain't no garden party. As well as for those of us who see that kind of 'likeminded' expectations in other areas of society.
Yes, we do need to keep the ad hominum attacks down, but lets make sure that it is ad hominum attacks we're talking about here, and not non-personal content that can all too conveniently be considered ad hominum, ... ok?
P.S., And why is it that some of the loudest folks here who whine about civil discourse, are usually the ones who keep eerily silent when the people/groups they despise are the targets of same ad hominum attacks, ... hmmmmm? How about adding the word 'consistancy' to the phrases 'civil discourse' and 'staying on topic'.
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Danny
I will let you know MR G M JR
That would be a wonderful event.
I would think you would have to lock a few poster out.
Went to the movies last weekend.
Great Debaters great movie.
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Sushi
Good luck, Groucho.
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Ham
"good luck"
well.. perhaps the strategy would be to start a new thread, where those who are blugeoning each other with the proverbial lead pipe will follow along to..
but that doesn't work most of the time either..
I've tried..
maybe it's a calling. "Here am I, blugeon me"
I'm starting to think: that's why SOME people come here to begin with..
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waysider
The weather sure was gloomy today.
:blink:
Just kidding, Groucho.
I agree with you.
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Ham
I dunno. When it hits twenty, thirty.. forty pages.. maybe the said thread holds a different, useful purpose.
And after forty some pages, what do you expect? People have already forgotten what the brawl is really about..
but really.. I know the forum rules.. try not to keep it "personal".. but how does one do that, and really *connect* with other people..
at some point it IS *personal*.. and may I add- REAL.
jumping in at the fortieth page or so.. and asking Paw to save the "honor" of a thread is kinda futile.. I've seen some try recently. It just seems to me.. any RELEVANT (at least to the topic at hand) discussion has happened on the first three pages or so.
Maybe.. the dynamics of things demand that one start a NEW thread..
not to ask that one intervene.. "fix" a woebegone thread..
take what's "relevant" to one's way of thinking.. or inquiry.. and RUN WITH IT..
well, it's just a thought..
:)
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GrouchoMarxJr
I dunno...there can be a fine line between saying that the post is stupid and the poster is stupid...I suppose that common respect is out of the question...I guess I'm just thinking out loud.
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Ham
heheh.
I will gladly wear either description, or both, if or when they apply..
Sometimes though.. common sense would suggest to me.. that after thirty nine pages on the same subject.. I mean.. what's gonna be said has already been said..
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Danny
I would have to say I am guilty of a few shots over the bow.
But where else could you see after years oldies say VP was wrong.
Far the most part treads move on. I think if you narrowed it
down just a few posters run the table in always wanting to be
in the spotlight no matter the subject matter.
Any tread will be doomed when they join in.
I would say I am the better for being here.
Much understanding is gained from being here.
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rascal
I am honestly at a loss. I don`t know how to participate here any more. It`s like this little contingent has taken it upon themselves to discredit anyone who posts contrary to their liking.
The post or information isn`t addressed, but rather what is wrong with you personally that you would hold that opinion.
If you defend yourself against the accusations, it takes the thread off topic. If you ignore the posters that are trying to disrupt, the accusations get more rediculous and outragious....and you are persued from thread to thread...being sniped at.
Defending yourself doesn`t work, fighting back doesn`t work, shutting up is what they want you to do :(
Walk away from this site? I wrestle with that as well....would leaving be more beneficial for everyone? Is staying detrimental?
I am open for suggestions.
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Linda Z
I agree, Groucho. Of course most of the people making personal attacks think they aren't, that it's those other people attacking them.
One thing that might help is if some people would take a few minutes to actually think before posting, and try to be sure they understand the other person's point before reacting in anger or hurt. Some GSers are very clear in what they say, and others are sometimes hard to understand. I see people in the latter category getting jumped on unfairly sometimes.
This seems like all too typical an exchange around here:
GSer 1. "I disagree. That wasn't what I experienced."
GSer 2: "There you go, calling me a liar!"
GSer1: "I didn't say you lied, I'm saying that wasn't my experience."
GSer2: "Why are you so cruel? Why do you have to call people liars?!?"
GSer1 (now pi$$ed): "I didn't call you a liar, but you need to get back on your meds!"
GSer1 and 2 both have fallen victim to letting their anger get the best of them, and the conversation screeches to a halt.
There are many "pairs" of posters who are constantly at each other. If I'm reading a thread and see those pairs of names, I often scroll right past. It will be the same, shrill accuations thrown back and forth that I've read hundreds of times before, so why bother?
But back to Groucho's point: Frankly, I think there's about as much chance for civil discourse about some of the hotter topics on GS as there is for world peace, but I'd love to be proven wrong!
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likeaneagle
i thought we werent supposed to be Greaspots after midnight..but you take a change on becoming one if you post anything...if you post, someone is bound to come by and slam your thought's up against a blackboard...
I know more folks would post if they felt it a safe place..GSC didnt always have this type of atmosphere...
Edited by likeaneagleLink to comment
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Danny
Thanks Linda
Hope I not on the list.
Part of the deal is I'm Danny and was born that way.
Not affraid to say I'm Danny. Can't spell but try.
When you don't know who you are talking to are let me say
if you don't know who you are going to shoot down is part of
the problem.
I understand why some might not want to reveal who they are.
Gives a great reason not to make up a bunch of lies.
I'm listed in the phone book.
I am a sinner and know it.
I never did a bunch of bad things in twi. Saw plenty though.
And try to be respectfull here for the most part.
I also think there are those you love to hate, That's the sin part.
I will get better I said it Jan. 1.
It's hard for me to call Linda a butt because she knows me.
I know her.
She's a good speller.
I just think it's very easy to insult a code name than a real person.
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Ham
perhaps.
I think a lot of people don't consider that there is a living, human being on the other end of *that* opinion that may be offered at the time..
that's the "problem" with this format of communication..
Many offer themselves FREELY to this mix of humanity.. a lot drop their inhibitions.. think it is a safe place to do so.. reveal things we wouldn't tell our aunt or uncle..
along with a modicum of anomymity..
as far as common respect is concerned, I TRY to give it, and not expect it.
The hams have a "fix" to this kinda problem.. the person is called "net control".
It's the guy who starts the "thread" so to speak. If somebody wants to speak, it's through him. He reigns over the discussion, keeps it relevant, keeps the contributers in line..
Some threads here, I've seen the net control guy starts something and just jumps ship.. show up every few days or so, to see how things are going..
I guess I'm thinking out loud too..
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washn'wear
Rascal - that's why I am not here much anymore.
... formerly washingtonweather
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Linda Z
Danny, good point about calling someone you know a butt vs. calling an anonymous poster a butt. (Yeah, I'm a good speller, but I can't operate a stud gun to save my life. It takes all of us with our various longsuits, eh? I love you, Danny, just the way you are.)
Years ago a regular GS poster was being (IMO) particularly rough on a brand-new poster. I asked if she would speak (write) so harshly if she were using her real name. She then twisted that to say I was threatening to reveal her identity, which I certainly wasn't. She side-stepped my question. WOULD she speak so harshly under her own name? She never replied to that question.
The anonymity of the Internet is a two-edged sword. One one hand, it gives some people the courage to stand up for themselves that they might not have otherwise. We all know what the "on the other hand" is.
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TOMMYZ
Groucho,
I agree with your original point. It's why I usually stay away from the politics threads or maybe post one or two thoughts then leave when I can tell it's not worth it.
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socks
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pond
What your saying is you believe in the posters here and they have integrity etc...
and i believe that is true many are on the web site because they like and believe in one another.
thats cool. carry on.
I am addressing the point of anyone coming to this site and getting any real help or answers from the threads.
the threads are messy often full of name calling gossip hear say and just plain confusion, without having been here for a long time or knowing the inside scoop of who is who (just like twi) your at risk of colliding with any number of rabid posters who are to say the least not nice and just plain paranoid of anyone outside the circle. So it appears not much more than a gossip magazine with funny storys.
and it is unrelenting in its attack of any one "new" or percieved as not fitting in, if they do not comply with the well ingrained pecking order.
[edited for getting personal]
that is what people read and that is why people do dismiss this place. Not to metion the fact if a decent conversation does start it quickly turns into he/she attacked the victim and she is mean am not, childish games that never end and become far to much bother to read.
The sad part is those who love this place the most are the very ones who make it impossible to be be a place that welcomes or wants any question of their idea of what it is.
[edited for getting personal]
so i think most are just saying let them have it and ex is right it isnt safe.
I cut and pasted myself!
this is from a post I wrote in cman thread titled "truth" i think it works in this thread better.
if you want go read that thread and it will explain my thoughts on this topic much better.
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Danny
[edited for getting personal]
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pond
[the post that this post responds to was deleted]
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Belle
Yes, it would be really nice if folks could stay on topic.
Ignoring the personal attack seems to be the best way to avoid denigrating what could have been a good discussion. It is quite possible to make a point and to contribute something of value to a conversation without stooping to the level of the attacker.
So someone disagrees with a poster and personally insults them..... ignore the insult and, if there was nothing in the post about the actual topic at hand, then ignore the whole darn post. I don't see why that's so hard. :unsure:
I've said this before and I'll say it again..... the typical accuser's reputation is such that there is no need to defend yourself and, of course accusations will get worse because they are trying to get attention and a response. No one actually believes the accusations anyway. We're not stupid, we can see what's going on. :)No. They want to get a rise out of the person they are attacking. They have fun being a bully. They don't care what the message is - they don't care what the topic is. They are merely getting off on making someone upset and hurting their feelings.
The best thing to do is to post whatever we want that is relevant to the topic at hand and ignore the peripheral b.s.
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pond
but the threads go off course naturaly in the form of a discussion.
what one may consider "b.s." is helpful to another right?
some want a strict police force that dictate how a thread should go.. stay on MY topic my opinion IS THE TOPIC.
and the anggry posters take over.
well then who is right and wrong?
Mr. Hammeroni thinks the one who began the thread should police it, and that would work if all had the same amount of time and devotion dedicated to typing on the puter and can sit here for days on end and comment, most do not have that type of life!
(I know hopefully i wont either soon)
not to metion that core of "friends" who back one up on a thread.. that can and is overwhelming and confusing and darn frightening if one just wants to start a topic .
the flurry of that happening friends and players getting in on the action of personal attack on just one thread can go pages long in just a few short hours and no one knows where the whole thing began and what the heck was the original idea!
and no one wants to read it for the most part to find out.
to much effort, but what it does it silents anyone who disagrees with those who are the majority here and who have the same sect as the power base.
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GarthP2000
What I find rather funny and ironic sometimes, is that there are times when there is an (admittedly heated often) discussion/argument, and some posts are made that somebody gets offended by, and the somebody gives the "C'mon! Let's keep it civil here! You're being personally offensive!", ... and maybe, just maybe, that 'offender' might be making a valid point, even amongst statements that are personally offensive. Not always, but I find it rather interesting that the "you're being offensive" accusation has been (often I think) used as a means of oversimplistically dealing with the content of a post that they don't like.
Quite a few times, both posters on either side of the argument/issue are posting what they believe, and (if you'll also notice) _both_ are about as emotional/passionate about their stands, both the 'offender' and the 'offendee'. Yes Virginia, they are. For example:
1) The Democrat (or liberal) GSer debating the Republican (or conservative) GSer
2) The Christian GSer debating the atheist GSer ;)
3) Even the TWI/spinoff GSer debating the anti-TWI/spinoff GSer
As a matter of fact, I think there are less of those who post purely to offend than people realize. They are indeed there, but I think they take up the minority.
And think about this. Greasespot, by its very nature as being (as one of its functions) a pressure valve to 'release steam' for those who were taught time and time again to be 'likeminded' (read: be a bunch of little goosesteppers for V. P. Fuehrer), ... ain't no garden party. As well as for those of us who see that kind of 'likeminded' expectations in other areas of society.
Yes, we do need to keep the ad hominum attacks down, but lets make sure that it is ad hominum attacks we're talking about here, and not non-personal content that can all too conveniently be considered ad hominum, ... ok?
P.S., And why is it that some of the loudest folks here who whine about civil discourse, are usually the ones who keep eerily silent when the people/groups they despise are the targets of same ad hominum attacks, ... hmmmmm? How about adding the word 'consistancy' to the phrases 'civil discourse' and 'staying on topic'.
P.P.S., Ooopsie! Was I being too uncivil again?
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Bumpy
If it was, it would have been....deleted!
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