Sexual abuse poll

[excathedra]

and some of us could vote more than once in more than once box

[potato]

if there was a box for leadership condoned domestic abuse, I could vote.

luckily I was too much on the fringe and not in rez long enough for the predators to get to me.

[waysider]

There are two things that I have seldom seen addressed in detail here on GSC.

1. Sexual abuse or harassment of men by other men.

(not the same as adult men abusing male children)

In an organization as large as TWI, it seems like the possibility that it happened is likely.

Add to that the lust by some individuals to attain higher ranking status in the organization and it doesn't seem impossible.

I had a guy come on to me once at ROA.

It was subtle and ambiguous.

Plus, I didn't want to think that what I was seeing was accurate.

(Can't think bad things about a brother in Christ, now, can we?)

Of course, today, I would probably see EXACTLY what his intentions were without trying to deny the reality.

I don't have anything against the guy but my door doesn't swing that direction, for sure.

2. Sexual harassment of men by women.

This is one that I personally saw.

While I was in FLO, a single WC female who was acting as an area leader or something, had designs on a married FLO man. She frequently leveraged her Corps status to make sure she found herself in situations where there was no one but the two of them present.

Kinda like the motor coach strategy.

She also used her status to suggest that he should do what she said if he wanted to advance himself into higher leadership positions.

I know this because his wife confided in me. (She was furious!)

When I discussed it with him, it was the same old mumbo-jumbo about how "even suspecting such a thing" was a sign of "unrenewed mind". I don't think he wanted to admit to himself what was really happening and I don't believe anything ever really did. God knows she sure tried, though.

He had absolutely no interest in her but she constantly persisted in trying.

I'm not sure HOW or even IF that fits here.

edited for grammar.

Edited January 4, 2008 by waysider

[potato]

This is one that I personally saw.

While I was in FLO, a single WC female who was acting as an area leader or something, had designs on a married FLO man. She frequently leveraged her Corps status to make sure she found herself in situations where there was no one but the two of them present.

Kinda like the motor coach strategy.

She also used her status to suggest that he should do what she said if he wanted to advance himself into higher leadership positions.

I know this because his wife confided in me. (She was furious!)

When I discussed it with him, it was the same old mumbo-jumbo about how "even suspecting such a thing" was a sign of "unrenewed mind". I don't think he wanted to admit to himself what was really happening and I don't believe anything ever really did. God knows she sure tried, though.

He had absolutely no interest in her but she constantly persisted in trying.

I'm not sure HOW or even IF that fits here.

edited for grammar.

yes, this is sexual abuse for sure. I'd be surprised to find out that women sexually abusing men (or other women) wasn't fairly common (I heard some stories), but I'd be equally surprised to find that it was as widespread as the male abusers.

[waysider]

yes, this is sexual abuse for sure. I'd be surprised to find out that women sexually abusing men (or other women) wasn't fairly common (I heard some stories), but I'd be equally surprised to find that it was as widespread as the male abusers.

Thanks, Potato for adding women vs. women to the mix.

Don't know how that one eluded me.

Yes, I think you are correct in posing the probability that men harassing women is more common than the opposite.

Also, men tend to be very reluctant to divulge such secrets.

Dang!---edited for yet another spelling error.

Edited January 4, 2008 by waysider

[excathedra]

hi waysider you bring up a really good point

love,ex

[Bumpy]

Thanks, Potato for adding women vs. women to the mix.

Don't know how that one eluded me.

Yes, I think you are correct in posing the probability that men harassing women is more common than the opposite.

Also, men tend to be very reluctant to divulge such secrets.

Hey Waysider! Now that I (think) I know you're really a guy! What about adding one more question to the sexual equation of "the mix"... That being the "group grope"! Did the folks watching those novelty films in the basement ever get down to a real sex party? I was going to ask Tom that question! You know the brown acid might have been a useful additive!!

[Eyesopen]

Did the folks watching those novelty films in the basement ever get down to a real sex party?

I know that this was intended as a joke but...I did not "experience" it or "see" it but yes I know that it happened in at least one state at one Limb Leaders house.

What I find really disturbing with this poll is the number of abortions. All I can say is "Wow! I am so sorry to hear about this." To me this is just the hight of arrogance. To tell someone to murder a defenseless child and expect them to obey....

Sorry...that's all I could think of.

[pond]

That is a very sensitive topic and one i will probably get into trouble for speaking about.

twi stance on body soul and spirit was very clear it is the first session of the pfal class.

because of this session a pregnacy was not a baby, a life etc.

I really do not want to discuss the merits of whether abortion is right or wrong.

so I believe abortion became common place because of two reason sex was not that big of a sin if you could handle it, etc... the priority was GOD ie the ministry and their needs being the bigger God .

to serve God was bigger than a pregnancy which was not a life anyways as defined in body soul and spirt.

so many so very many really believed we were changing the world ya know really saving it all in the fact we belonged to the way ministry!!! right up there with all of it mini jesus's running around on a mission from God almighty through the way international.

it was really that grandeous .

so abortion turned into not a real big thing for a christian outfit.

but pfal was everything or going wow or the corps.. etc.

when i was pregnate with my second child , my marriage was rocky and my obgyn knew it, she nearly demanded i abort that pregnancy , she said and i quote "you have a responsibility to (MY first born child name here) if you decide to carry this pregnacy you will be taking food out of her mouth"!

i felt the pressure to abort so strong from my own MD who i loved dearly and trusted .

it was my choice and as much as i didnt want to lose her , i considered what she said and it did frighten me as the future was unknown for me .. on many levels i had serious medical concerns the pregnacy was extremly troublesome and the odds were i would miscarriage anyways. she told me i will not carry it five months and why not just be safe and healthy and do the right thing.

she conseled me out of love and concern and her expertise as a very very good obgyn. she was/is one the best dr's in this city.

i switched dr.s ended up with a freak who didnt speak english. another story but i was told i would miscarry anyways so it was only a matter of time.

well my son is a fine upstanding man pushing thirty now. ok my point.. sorry

so i do know the pressure one can feel to make a choice other than what their heart says is best. and I do know how twi taught that twi was God business and it was more important than anything and certainly more important than a pregnancy.

that being said consel yes i believe to maybe have an abortion, if your heart and souls desire was to serve God or twi the same thing in their eyes, because it was not a huge issue of murder etc.

since then many have changed their views on abortion and now reject the idea of body soul and spirit.

but i do not believe any woman was thrown out of the way minstry because they chose not to have an abortion and not go wow or into the corps.

now if it is a personal thing where one is having sex and one gets pregnate and one is married or something and all icky and sinful like that well then im sure the pressure would be greater.. as it would be outside of a cult as well.

the thinking was

1 it was not murder

2 it was not a baby

3 the exspectation of twi was to serve twi first and foremost

4 as always the choice was/is made by the woman who was pregnate and her dr. it is a medical procedure in which no one eles can force you to do. twi didnt perform abortions, im sure they made arrangements, they were good at helping one reach their goals of serving twi.

twi loved kids look at their big leaders in the 80 Vince F. had a ton of children they all had many kids supported by twi and your abundant sharing, in the eighties they did NoT restrict how many children the leaders could have in their family.

geez they were always pregante .. Yates is another one they all had at least three or four . which i didnt have a problem with.

later it got down to that tho when the well was going dry.

[potato]

I was told by LC if I got pregnant after committing to go in the corps I'd have to get an abortion or I'd be a liar because I'd be breaking my promise to God.

I was also reamed by FC for trying to get pregnant with my second child because I hadn't discussed it with her.

[Tom Strange]

pond, I'm glad you're son is doing fine... what you relate, IMO, is this: the Doctor counselled you out of love and concern, TWI counselled out of FEAR.

[pond]

I agree tom strange totaly.

we were all a little crazy i remember well .

potato

exactly what i was saying twi had priorities and if your desire was to go corps get sponsors ask them to pay for it they took it very seriously.

i know i was there too, so IFyou did get pregnate while in the corps , you had to leave and "break a vow to God", or the simple and it was very easily given as the solution to alot of that type of problem going on was just have an abortion, no one get hurts and you keep your vow to God continue in the corps.

i saw one couple go in and out of the corps three times in three years.. they had children one was ill so they had to leave.. and that poor couple ENTIRE life was all about getting to go into the way corps to please God.

and they had very tiny children at the time who should have in my opinion been their focus esp. since one was very seriously ill and born with many problems.

i think and this is so sad i want to cry I think they thought if they pleased God enoug by doing what twi said they needed to do then the baby would have abetter chance of being healthy and healed.

is that not pitiful? but that was the group i was involved in.

they ended up divorced and the child went into a home for the disabled. they ran classes they opened their home to fellowship 3 times a week they towed the line.. they did everything right.

just to remember this is getting to me. sorry. Im glad im out .

[Twinky]

nothing physically happened

That has to be defined a bit better. TWI was into hugs and kisses. What about Howard's alleged French kisses, is that nothing (because not intercourse) or something (because unwelcome)? What about a hug that goes on just a little too long... or almost in the "wrong place" as a sort of try-on, but not quite enough to slap someone's face? What if you were a "willing victim" at the time and only now come to see it as abuse ... because barriers had been broken down.

What level is "leadership" - ordained? Not yet ordained but became so later? WC? A non-WC TC? (=for an answer to the poll)

(Sorry, folks, I have some hang-ups in this area.)

Be assured: it wasn't just in the USA. The famous "international outreach" reached out in the sexual area also.

Excuse me now while I go and scream.

(okay I screamed and then came back to edit a typo. Now I'm going to get a shower, I feel filthy)

Edited January 4, 2008 by Twinky

[simonzelotes]

Wouldn't the poll be more representative of the community if one of the answers was "I was never sexually abused while in the way"?...

[outintexas]

Wouldn't the poll be more representative of the community if one of the answers was "I was never sexually abused while in the way"?...

That was also my thought.

[potato]

that question wouldn't cover everything either. some people were sexually abused but not by ordained leaders.

[waysider]

Ya know, this stuff just takes all kinds of twisted turns.

When I went into FLO(mid '70s) I signed an agreement that my marital status would not change during my time in the program. I went in as a single person.(not exactly a kid, either.)

It was MEGA, MEGA taboo to engage in sexual activity in the program.

(not the teenage variety)

To do so(and be caught) meant you would be immediately expelled from the program.

And, this did, in fact, happen. (not going to give names)

So, I did my part to live up to the bargain.

Yeah, I know, there are probably some FLO who will read this and think"GEEZE!, waysider, you sure were naive!"

That doesn't bother me. I did what I thought I needed to do to honor my commitment.

All the while, the limb leader, who ran the program, had his own personal crew of "cleaning ladies" who took care of his house when his wife was out of town.

Naturally, this raised the usual suspicions.

----BUT----

We were not allowed to voice those suspicions with one another.

And lest you forget, we lived in a commune where not much happened privately.

To even voice a suspicion, was considered a spiritual weakness and sign of a carnal mind.

That's why , during that half hour of free time at night, we would make a "junk run" to The Wayside Truck Stop and try to privately make some sense of what was going on.(hence the name "waysider")

After I graduated, I got married and went back in as the spouse of a first time FLO.

(marital status rule thus circumvented.)

My spouse(long since divorced) was one of the limb leader's favorite people and also cleaned his house on various occasions.

I guess I'm really just kinda rambling here.

I hope some of that makes sense.

Edited January 5, 2008 by waysider

[excathedra]

Wouldn't the poll be more representative of the community if one of the answers was "I was never sexually abused while in the way"?...

i think it's a poll on who WAS

but you might be right about it being more e representative of this community, since most that i know, who were, are not here, in this community

--

i get you waysider and thanks for the bit about your name

[excathedra]

a poll on spiritual abuse might be nice

although i have feeling that would fly right over the cuckoo's nest

[excathedra]

someone on another forum made an effort to discredit me

something about my being abused as a young girl by my uncle (well that's true -- i was not a teen however -- i was younger)

AND they also said veepee never did such a thing to a teenager

i just wanted to say veepee TRIED when i was a teenager (freshman year in college) - he just didn't get his believing up until about 5 years later

it's been bugging me and i didn't know where else to share it

and my drinking doesn't change the facts

thanks

[pond]

What does that mean he didnt get his believing up until 5 years later.

the drinking doesnt change the fact he came on to you. he may have been drinking as well it makes some make bad choices that is why i do not drink.

legal age for consentual Sex in NY is 17, some states it is much younger.

you feel he was a creep because he was a MOG, he was married, and you didnt want his advances correct?

no one knows if he did or didnt "have sex with teenagers" unless they were in the room I reckon, and married men who hit on other woman mostly deny it .

I know this bothers you still ex and im trying to word it as gently as I can , Im glad you now realize you do not have to do what a MOG asks you to do but to stay in like you did (five years later!) why did you really?

and

you know what? i really do not have the time or energy to have an onslaught of accusations that i am blaming the victim now it is really serious question I would like to know since you want to share.

Edited January 5, 2008 by pond

[excathedra]

thanks pond i'm not offended

when he got his believing up was when i lost my free will

but even if i didn't know what was happening exactly (that particular night on the coach journey)

the fact that he counseled me for 5 years telling me why it was his "godly" calling to help me get over my childhood sexual abuse

and believe that god wanted me to understand the proper way of a man with a maiden

i hope this is making sense

it's about manipulation, dear pond

and a screwed up person (me)

thanks

.... as far as 17 or 18 or whatever... i don't know what to say about that

you see, i was already messed up

it's a shame he pounced on that

but to stay in like you did (five years later!) why did you really?

i stayed in longer than that, pond

why ?

i don't know

[potato]

some people find it easy to blame the victim for not repelling advances, for not being stronger. they say, don't blame the MOG for your upbringing making you vulnerable. if you weren't already screwed up, you wouldn't have been taken advantage of. your emotional problems and mental instability are really the problem.

I counter this with, the MOG abusers looked for people who were already in pain, who needed healing, who were vulnerable because they were easier to push over the edge than someone with no self-esteem issues and no confusion about love. it wasn't my problems that made me pick my abuser, it was my problems that made my abuser pick me and become what I needed the most, so he could get close enough to use me emotionally.

people like vpw are bottom-feeders. they look for people who need a hand up out of the pits of despair because they are easier to drag all the way under. let's not blame the victims for the predation they were subjected to.

i stayed in longer than that, pond

why ?

i don't know

the water was nice and cool when you jumped in the pot, little froggie.

as it was for me.

[excathedra]

a spiritual leader should be a good person

in fact, anyone we let in our life should be a good person

duh

[excathedra]

i know i'm going to sound like an azzbut for politically correct peopleand suchthis is me--