At first I didnt want to believe some of the accounts from people.
It was sold as an attack from satan for years these accusations needed to be validated by twi or they were an attack to hurt others.
which they do Hope when someone says something happens and uses names I feel they have a right to defense.
We all know just because someone says something doesnt make it a true statement..
I do not have a right to say they are not true or have proof either..
This isnt a court of law just a forum of people speaking their minds.
But some were hurt and want to lash back and people are not always reasonable Hope dealing with what we deal with sometimes.
I wont say I believe everything that is said here.at GS
I have no reason to think everyone is honest or exactly healthy in their mind sets .
Or out to lie and destroy twi or a minister or leader for personal reasons.
but I am a horse of a different color, I chose to not blame twi for what people did. I think it created a haven of sorts for abuse and that is why it was so rampant but I do not blame the minstry itself...
The cult made people ill . Some came in ill some left ill and getting better means looking at situations honestly which takes a long road.
there is alot of the in between here.
Denial is a strong word Hope, some did not experience what they read here and do not want to take just an internet word for it.
I think that is ok.
but they must not stop from the telling of it and they do not for the most part right?
they may question but a question doesnt invalidate someone who is accusing somone eles of evil does it?
not in my thinking anyway.
[This message was edited by mj412 on February 28, 2003 at 16:24.]
I was highly skeptical for years, even after getting booted out of twi because I thought those out were just grousing.
But the promise of ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free has held true for me as well, and hopefully for these others who are posting their skepticism.
Truth is painful, but the only healing can come in this way.
I am so thankful for WayDale and Greasespot Cafe for giving people the opportunity to look at the facts and hear the testimonies of people that for years were thought to be just disgruntled failures.
Thankyouthankyouthankyouverymuch!
:)-->-- God
p.s. "what the deaf man heard" is a favorite of mine. Thanks for reminding me of the lesson therein
1. Always watch what you say, you never know who may be listening, and
I see no reason for anyone who was abused or mistreated by people in TWI to lie about it. Maybe I'm naive. But I think that people who put their life in writing here at GS, and share their most horrible experiences with us have no ulterior motive. I think they want to help other people see what went on as well as get it out of their systems. There is no real purpose in faking abuse here.
No, not everyone who posts here is mentally healthy. That's because we're all in the process of recovering from an abusive cult.
I am one of the people who never saw a lot of what went on behind the scenes in TWI. The first 10 -12 years I was in were great. I had fun, met great people, and had a lot of experiences I will never regret. But I will not deny that while I was having a wonderful time, there were people who were being treated maliciously and abused.
I give everyone who posts here the benefit of the doubt. For me to say "prove it" to them is like me telling them their life is a lie. They don't have to prove it. The fact they're posting it here is proof enough for me.
Hope R. color>size>face>
"Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>
Yet consider this when I was marked I actualy had people tell me what happened and why. to me.
Hope the story they said was so outrageous it wasnt even remotely close to what actualy happened and why.. I honestly said to one '"
EXCUSE ME um you are talking about MY LIFE not someone eles right???
He was trying to convince me the actual person he was talking about what had happened and how..it was different from(mine) the one who had the actual experience . I laughed out loud I couldnt believe how insane they got...
FIRST PERSON ME MY LIFE What happened and why ME and he said "no that is not what happened".
people got very very insane Hope many would not listen to reason at all. truth was as they see it or hear from another...Reality was shifty at best and often time went with what someone eles may have heard or thought without any base of personal truth..or experience yet it turned into an absolute truth...... for many.
it was amazing..... fantastic ****.
How do I know they were making up stories and lying?
IT WAS MY LIFE they said this and that about and I am not in denial I know How I got marked and avoided . they just thought they knew a story that worked for them and it was ugly and fit with what they wanted to hear to justify thier own position.
I am saying HOPE they made it up from the begining to the end and face to face they still clung to it as truth. Regardless of the reality of me saying it was not even close to what happened.
Ok?
people capable of that type of fantasy , I have no doubt some write at GS as well....
it was a cult people need to think what they need to think was truth HOPE.
Believe me that does not mean to me it is the truth of an experience.... or what really happened at all....
people love dirty laudry more than people in the way ministry. and out.
If you can believe this
I walked away full of love for the guy who marked me, not sexual boy girl love honest respect for the way leadership at the time...and full of love for God and the bible.
But a few months later I talked to those still involved and leaders and the story they told of how I was marked was one full of hate and pain.
not even close I was out , still loving and blessed , they were 000 in leadership postions and full of lies bold faced lies about me who they had never met, and hate for what happened.
It was twisted and sick....
So I have a very difficult time taking anything these posters say just for the words to say it.
I know the abuse because I know... I do not even want anyone to believe me, or pity me, or relate to me.
I am just glad I was not the only one,(I honestly believed that I was before GS) if others feel better and can help one another that makes Gs a good place.
I need no proof, I give no proof not to GS.
Yes I think people are capable of huge destructive lies from hell.
sadly the abusers and the sudo victims play in the same arena here along with those who are truthful. But that was and is the congregation of twi.... ex or not.
Don't ever underestimate the power of denial. It is the mechanism that allows people to not see what is clearly evident to others. Sometimes the pain of reality is far too much for some to handle even though it is there in black in white.
It matters very little that a handful of posters come to GS and deny the MANY testimonies that have come forward thru the years. Few can dispute that thousands saw enough reason to withdraw and separate THEMSELVES from twi studies and activities.
Hiding behind walls of seclusion and denial, twi polishes its form of godliness. Most telling, the Scriptures warn us of leaders like this and their workings of darkness.
Let those "defenders of twi" post away........ if twi was a godly ministry, then they would uphold the truth and ABSTAIN FROM ALL APPEARANCE OF EVIL. Quite the contrary, twi embraces it!!
Ya know, Woodstock was a filthy, muddy mess. No food or shelter, not enough potable drinking water or bathrooms. There were over 400,000 people there - do you think many of them got to hear anything from the main stage? I know people who went that never even got close enough to see who was playing, let alone hear anything. Not to mention the bad acid floating around (?don?t take the brown window pane!?) and the heat strokes and the rain.
In an article I read: "It was chaos, wasn't it?" says The Who's Pete Townshend. "I mean, what was going on off the stage was just beyond comprehension -- stretchers and dead bodies and people throwing up and people having bad trips.?
But fast forward 30 years and ask anyone who went how they feel about having been at Woodstock and they?ll tell you: ?Man, it was the best! It was unbelievable! Nothing like that can ever happen again. Three days of peace and love and music. Jimi and Joni and Janis!?
Except Joni Mitchell didn?t perform at Woodstock. She wasn?t even there. She couldn?t attend because of a conflict in scheduling. Most people think she was there because she wrote the song. But nope - she never sang a note at Yasgur?s farm!
Memory is selective. We all remember the Rock of Ages like it was scaled down Woodstock sometimes. Peace, Love and Jesus. VP in a white suit. WOW burgers. Family Tables. Ahhhhh those were the good old days!
And we remember all those marvelous teachings! The lame man, the blind man, the man with the withered hand. We?ll never hear teachings like that again!
In reality, lots of us got rained on, our tents and sleeping bags were flooded. At the Shelby Fair Grounds, the flies were as thick as a rope in some places.
Some of the teachings were downright boring. And some of the music was just awful.
And many of us HAD to be there. Most of us worked our butts off and didn?t get any sleep. Some of us ran out of money, or lost jobs, or missed a wedding or special event because we went to ?the Rock!?
Our memories of those days are selective. I?ve realized that about my Corps experience recently as well. I tend to only remember the fun stuff, things that make the glass half full instead of half empty.
Then I hear stories from certain posters that bring back a lot of the reality of what TWI was really like underneath the sugar coating - and I see the empty half of the glass.
It?s easy to remember the good things. I think it may be a defense mechanism for many of us. I think the reality of TWI is a very bitter pill for many people to swallow.
Karmicdebt said it very wisely: ?Don't ever underestimate the power of denial. It is the mechanism that allows people to not see what is clearly evident to others. Sometimes the pain of reality is far too much for some to handle even though it is there in black in white.?
I never thought I?d say this but, I?m glad my parents didn?t let me go to Woodstock.
Hope R. color>size>face>
"And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>
quote: Don't ever underestimate the power of denial. It is the mechanism that allows people to not see what is clearly evident to others. Sometimes the pain of reality is far too much for some to handle even though it is there in black in white.
This can be a reality not only of the evil, but also of the good. I try to consider both, since both happened simultaneously.
quote:I am one of the people who never saw a lot of what went on behind the scenes in TWI. The first 10 -12 years I was in were great. I had fun, met great people, and had a lot of experiences I will never regret. But I will not deny that while I was having a wonderful time, there were people who were being treated maliciously and abused.
I feel the same way, but think the difference is I haven't allowed the bad experiences of others to corrupt or "talk me out of" the godly experiences. When one refers to the whole of TWI as an "abusive cult", one seems to have already jumped on the hate-TWI bandwagon, irrespective of any godliness that occurred. I am sometimes befuddled by someone who stayed in TWI for so long and can't testify or be proud of how wonderful it was. Seems like all that matters are the sins of people.
I doubt if I will ever refer to the whole of TWI as an "abusive cult." The Corps maybe...we might all have been better off had that program never gotten off the ground.
quote:I give everyone who posts here the benefit of the doubt. For me to say "prove it" to them is like me telling them their life is a lie. They don't have to prove it. The fact they're posting it here is proof enough for me.
Hope;
The problem for those of us who never had such horiffic experiences is that a forum post by an anonymous person carries little weight. If an allegation is posted by someone under their actual name, it's easy to try to verify it.
When scandalous accusations are leveled against respected leaders in society at large, most reasonable people expect some sort of corrobating evidence ala Monica Lewinsky's infamous blue dress. In the absence of corrobating evidence, it's "he said-she said"--the word of the accused vs the word of the accuser, in which case, the decision rests on the established credibility of the witnesses. But if the accuser isn't willing to reveal his or her identity, that credibility cannot be established, so the accused retains the benefit of the doubt.
One of the fundamental precepts of American life is that one is innocent until proven guilty. It's been said in this thread that this isn't a court of law. I presume the poster meant that we don't have to offer that same constitutional standard of innocence to the accused. However, one could also argue that, since we are dealing with the reputations of ministers, we should hold to ourselves to a standard that's higher than the secular one, not lower.
Let's face it, if I wanted to, I could sign on as "6th Corps Refugee" and talk of being accosted by VP in the motorcoach. So for those who still live by PFAL it's not enough that someone posted a story.
I'm not saying I don't personally believe the allegations against VP & co. The number and persistence of them is significant, and they fit with the character of things taught. In other words, I didn't see the fire, but I can clearly remember seeing and smelling the smoke.
But for those who didn't see either one and want to cling to the benefits received in TWI, it's easy to dismiss allegations offered by people who won't tell you their real names.
Credibility etablished based on revealing identities? No, I don't think so.
First of all, Hope HAS revealed the name on her Corps name tag- now, do you believe her? Didn't think so..........
Most importantly, use the spiritual perception and awareness you were trained to use! Read the Bible! I personally was not a part to first hand knowledge, HOWEVER, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has webbed feet like a duck, has feathers and a bill like a duck- I have no problem calling it a duck.
A tree is known by its fruit. Observe the fruit carefully- use everything you have.
Though they be given a sign (ie a name tag) yet they will not believe.
You know Hope there is some advantage to when a person left that allowed us to see things more clearly than what let?s say someone leaving during the fog or before.
People that left earlier and are just now looking around have their experience from being in Twi and all the good. Then they have what is easily seen as second hand reports from former followers and disgruntled leaders to compare what they knew and saw and really what they lived.
Now, after I left and had some *images* of leaders I had known personally and had nothing but respect for; well the *images* turned out to be false. I can say that because I was able to get the other side of the story from people that saw the real or evil side to the same leaders. I think of yours and John?s dealings with your last RC and being able to see the stories of the lawsuit on WayDale and get in writing denials to knowing any thing from those last leaders you had.
Make any sense? We have had the availability to look into things, while they may be second hand to us they are first hand from the people we have talked to. Like the former RC I had, he was nothing but gracious and fun to be around as was his wife. I really enjoyed my one on one time with the guy, getting my paws all dirty and greasy with him and enjoying some down to earth conversation. But, then I got the story of how a person I knew went to leaders with a question and this guy ran them through the dirt; digging up years of filth and second hand information to destroy their credibility. I also was able to talk to people in a court room that heard testimony from former clergy and how this guy denied and tried to discredit this former clergy. Then the RC did a great job of covering and damage control.
But, if you left years ago with a Woodstock was beautiful memory it becomes almost impossible to see all the mud and disaster because you don?t trust who is calling it mud and you are not able to get fresh first hand reports from people that saw the real other side.
I think your a powerful force at grease spot because your willing to give your name an history.
that is great.
I can not and will never say all the story with names. To protect my children .
it is just that simple.
they have a right to peace and not have what happened to us all over the press.
Mine does involve courts and jail and lots of really nasty stuff but i have tried my best to be honest and protect them.
I will die some day and whatever I do I do not want to bring them in to stuff now...
my older ones would understand but I still have children that would or could be hurt and we frankly do not need to deal with it all over again.
Yes I am afraid of what people can and do when ....ed off .
I will be honest after all we went through those who spew allegations I do look at close because I feel a bit like a hero sorry if that rides some of you .
I am .
the cost has been not only my life but others are involved as well .
I am angry at times more play victim but wouldnt help the situation.
Hope if anyone understands why they didnt it would be me.... but it does not make what we went through any less damaging .
I was alone then . I may take it to my grave, I do not know when the time is right I will talk to the others the innocent ones and see if they care but I can not now.
so sometimes the proof is not going to be posted on an internet for a reason.
2 cents: I think the appearance of evil comment has a lot of merit. I keep going back to the thought that I haven't EVER read or heard of a teaching that was done on adultery even after the stuff come out publicly. I mean the PR man RM couldn't even make a statement that the ministry does not condone it?? Your "answer in the face of accusation" is "we are not prepared to make a statement at this time... we will be releasing a statement in the near future..." ?!?!?!?! Where is the "clearing of yourselves"??
I can't fathom how some claim to be so "spiritual" and can not uphold the BASIC precepts of godly sorrow. For the sake of those in the ministry they should have done that if not for the principle itself.
Seriously, how many still in hang in doubt of them to this very day because they haven't really taken a stand against it?
Masterherbalist, reread my post. You have misunderstood what I wrote.
Thou hast said, "First of all, Hope HAS revealed the name on her Corps name tag- now, do you believe her? Didn't think so.........."
Two problems there. Perhaps you didn't finish reading my post before you responded to it.
One: I didnt' say I don't believe these accounts. I said just the opposite. I'm just playing "devil's advocate" and presenting the other side of the story.
Two; I never implied that Hope herself was one of the accusers. She didn't say that any of these things happened to her. All she said was that she heard Craig scream at a friend of hers. That's not what we're talking about.
Think about WHOOOO exactly the Greasespotters are. We are a bunch of fairly bright people who somehow got convinced to not accept what our brains told us. In particular, I think of the Advanced Classes, where LCM told us that any personal experiences we might have had with ghosts, telepathy, visions, etc ... that these were all just tricks. He convinced us that our own experiences didn't count. A lot of us believed that crap. And just like many other bad habits aquired in TWI, it takes awhile to get rid of this one. A lot of us may still be denying things that really did happen to us, because that's a part of our programming that we still haven't cleaned out. We don't believe reality even when it's right there in front of us. Please don't misunderstand -- I've had some of my own posts here on GS ripped apart as though I had lied. But we gotta remember who frequents here, and how we each heal at a different pace. Love ya, Hope. -Pat
Frankly, I'm siding with JBarrax here. The concept of innocent until proven guilty is one of the things that make for a civilized society, even if the concept isn't as strictly enforced as it would be in court.
Not everybody who asks for 'proof' are doing so from a standpoint of defending VPW's reputation in such a blind fashion. Others have asked because they were indeed unaware of and shocked in hearing about this travesty inflicting the ministry, and would reasonably expect to hear of 'proof' that this happened to the extent that it did. I was one of them, and I am not sorry for asking for proof, evidence and verification that this happened. And neither did I require for people to give their names either, as I realize the security issues involved.
The vast number of accounts here have indeed proven true, but that is no reason to buy into the "I have the right to be believed" routine. Nobody has the right to be believed. They do, however, have a right to be heard.
Also, denial is a two-edged sword, and can cut both ways. And one form of denial are the oft-used excuses of 'programming', 'mind control', 'brainwashing' and the like. We use those terms because we don't want to admit to the world that we readily believed that stuff that we now see as garbage. "I must have been brainwashed to believe that stuff, that a rational person usually wouldn't believe". (--> Ya know, I've heard that line used by an atheist once, in describing what he was taught in church!) So how much 'denial' is used in this respect, eh?
It occurs to me that I may be one of the posters Hope is referring to on this thread. Let me say that I don't doubt good people were seriously hurt over the years in the course of TWI operations. In fact, I know it to be true. How many, how badly; when, where, and in what manner is impossible to say. Some were injured such that they could not simply get up, brush themselves off, and get moving again.
Before I "got into the word", I was a ski patrolman. The primary focus of our work was first-aid to injured skiers. The first thing we did upon discovering an injured skier was take off our skis and stick them tail first in the snow like an X a few yards up slope. This identified and protected the injured skier's location. Next we determined the nature and extent of the victim's (we called them victims at that time) injuries. Most of the time they were conscious and we simply asked them where they hurt. If they weren't conscious, we got them breathing, stopped the bleeding and splinted limbs. In both cases we loaded them into a sled for the ride down hill. There they were shipped to a hospital where a doctor would take over. Sometimes Mom or Dad just came and picked them up.
Point I'm driving at is no injured skier was ever helped by a bunch of patrolmen standing around discussing how bad it was or who was at fault. We didn't talk about greedy, power hungry chair lift owners. We had training and we had a plan. It worked all the time every time. Even when it didn't work it worked.
Power for Abundant Living is the beginning of God's training and plan for His faithful, believing believer. It is we who have neglected, and in many cases, rejected this solution. This neglect and rejection resulted in the spiritual weakness and inability we all witnessed and experienced.
Why not come back to Power for Abundant Living? Why not open the books? Why should we question God's call to serve? Was it all bogus; just another big fat lie from hell? I don't think so. If it is life's a joke. There's nothing out there. It's just matter in motion.
Why not come back to Power For Abundant Living? Because it's full of errors that's why. VP didn't follow the keys he taught. If you take a closer look at it, this will become apparent. And since PFAL claims to be the key to an accurate, systematic understanding of God's Word these systemic problems make it a complete sham.
Is there some great truth in Power For Abundant living? Yes there is. Is it the revelation of keys to the understanding of God's Word VP said it was? Not on your life.
For more information, please visit the Actual Errors in PFAL thread or the PFAL REVIEWwebsite, which is my current homepage. But be warned. There's probably more wrong doctrine, illogic and nonsense in that class than you can possibly imagine. You may not like what you read.
I would be VERY surprised to find that someone who REALLY believes we need to "come back to PFAL" will be WILLING to fully consider your major or minor premises, Jerry.
...only if they might be willing to set aside a rather extreme conclusion: That God Almighty gave PFAL to VPW of a whole cloth, right out of the sky. Even though it is demonstrably proveable that he not only read and assimilated but copy-and-pasted Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger and others word-for-word at times. Call it what you will, but vic was a presumptuous prophet. At this point, I would rather study Stiles, Leonard, et al, then a man who copied and called it his own.
sheeesh, crikey, cripes amighty, every SCHOOLKID knows that .... won't hack it.........
Garth, Do you think mind-control, progamming, and brainwashing are not real? -Pat
schwaiger@direcway.com
Not in the pat fashion that many 'anti-cult' people seem to think and apply the terms, Pat. (sorry for the play on your name. :D-->)
Not to the degree or fashion that the 'experts' have depicted by their illustration of Korean War POWs and then used in such a liberal fashion about the current day 'cults'.
Not w/o further *independent* (and may I say, more professionally done) means of verifying and more honest application of the terms.
I appreciate all your responses. I don't think some of you got what I was trying to say, and I apologize for not making myself clearer.
Grizzy - I think I get what you're trying to communicate - and I agree. A lot of people who left early on have had a lot of time to forget the mud - and might not like seeing it when it's brought to their attention. (did I get it right?)
And Jerry, I didn't see the fire either. But I don't need to know where the fire is or who started it to see the smoke. For me,(and this is just me, mind you), if, as you said, the incident "fits with the character of things taught", I will always take the victim's word for it. That is not to say I never have any doubts about some incidents that were posted here. I have. But again - I try to give the victim the benefit of the doubt. I don't need to know their real name in order to believe them. And I may be a bleeding heart, but I do not understand how anyone would need to know someone's real name in order to make their story credible.
Masterherb - I don't think Jerry was being mean at all. I understand what he was trying to communicate, I just don't necessarily agree with him 100%.
MJ - I have never doubted you. I don't need to know your real name. I know you have been hurt. I don't think you are lying. I understand your reasons for not revealing who you are. Not knowing someone's real identity has never been a problem for me when it comes to their testimony.
Pat - I didn't think I implied that those who were abused were in denial. If I did, I apologize - it's not what I meant. The denial was in reference to the people who do not believe the stories of abuse. The fact that someone wouldn't believe your story and rip you apart as though you had lied is abhorrent to me. That's the kind of denial I'm talking about. The people who don't believe your story or mine. (love you, too!)
Garth - I know not everyone who asks for proof is doing so to defend TWI. You're right - the shock of hearing some of this stuff may require more information in order for our own heads to comprehend it.
But I could tell you a story about a guy who EVERYONE probably still thinks was the greatest guy in TWI, who made me feel like I was 2 inches tall. It would be hard for a lot of people here to believe because most people have had nothing but great experiences with this man. I couldn't prove it happened. No one else was there. Should I not tell the story because I have no proof? (I never have on these forums, btw, not because I have no proof, I just don't want to).
And I agree no one has the right to be believed. But we don't have the right to say their stories aren't true without proof.
Seaspray - I never mentioned any names. It has just been a general feeling of frustration. These forums are ex-TWI sites. And yes, we can present whatever side of TWI we want to, pro or con. But when people have been hurt beyond repair by the doctrines and practices of TWI, and a poster tells them to master PFAL or listen to old tapes of VP or read Blue Book - I want to SCREAM. They don't get it. I believe they refuse to see the other side of TWI. And I agree 100% with what Jerry said about PFAL. Go to the link he posted. It's an eye opener to those who think PFAL is akin to the Word of God.
Karmicdebt said it - and I think I might make it into a poster and hang it over my computer to remind me not to get so frustrated...
I'll repost it again because it makes so much sense that I'm sorry I didn't see it.
quote:?Don't ever underestimate the power of denial. It is the mechanism that allows people to not see what is clearly evident to others. Sometimes the pain of reality is far too much for some to handle even though it is there in black in white.?
Thanks Karmicdebt - drop me an email sometime -
Hope R. color>size>face>
"And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>
Power for Abundant Living is the beginning of God's training and plan for His faithful, believing believer. It is we who have neglected, and in many cases, rejected this solution. This neglect and rejection resulted in the spiritual weakness and inability we all witnessed and experienced.
Why not come back to Power for Abundant Living? Why not open the books? Why should we question God's call to serve? Was it all bogus; just another big fat lie from hell? I don't think so. If it is life's a joke. There's nothing out there. It's just matter in motion.
Ohh looky! Smikeol, Part Deux: The PFAL Wars. --> (looking around for my Mike of Borg pic)
So if PFAL is all a bogus, then all of life is a joke?? Come on man, isn't your God bigger than some 36 hour class taught by a guy who had a lousy selection of '50's style ties? Please tell me that He is, please!
And the abuse was because of our neglecting and rejecting of the PFAL Word?? Dr.s Last Teaching? Oh right! Spare me. Jeez! I don't think I need a 'god' (notice small 'g' here) like that.
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Free at last, free at last! Thank you, Hope, for saying EXACTLY what is right!
A post of clarity, truth, honesty and sense for a change!
Remind me to hug you!
:D-->
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mj412
yes Hope
At first I didnt want to believe some of the accounts from people.
It was sold as an attack from satan for years these accusations needed to be validated by twi or they were an attack to hurt others.
which they do Hope when someone says something happens and uses names I feel they have a right to defense.
We all know just because someone says something doesnt make it a true statement..
I do not have a right to say they are not true or have proof either..
This isnt a court of law just a forum of people speaking their minds.
But some were hurt and want to lash back and people are not always reasonable Hope dealing with what we deal with sometimes.
I wont say I believe everything that is said here.at GS
I have no reason to think everyone is honest or exactly healthy in their mind sets .
Or out to lie and destroy twi or a minister or leader for personal reasons.
but I am a horse of a different color, I chose to not blame twi for what people did. I think it created a haven of sorts for abuse and that is why it was so rampant but I do not blame the minstry itself...
The cult made people ill . Some came in ill some left ill and getting better means looking at situations honestly which takes a long road.
there is alot of the in between here.
Denial is a strong word Hope, some did not experience what they read here and do not want to take just an internet word for it.
I think that is ok.
but they must not stop from the telling of it and they do not for the most part right?
they may question but a question doesnt invalidate someone who is accusing somone eles of evil does it?
not in my thinking anyway.
[This message was edited by mj412 on February 28, 2003 at 16:24.]
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Kit Sober
I was highly skeptical for years, even after getting booted out of twi because I thought those out were just grousing.
But the promise of ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free has held true for me as well, and hopefully for these others who are posting their skepticism.
Truth is painful, but the only healing can come in this way.
I am so thankful for WayDale and Greasespot Cafe for giving people the opportunity to look at the facts and hear the testimonies of people that for years were thought to be just disgruntled failures.
Thankyouthankyouthankyouverymuch!
p.s. "what the deaf man heard" is a favorite of mine. Thanks for reminding me of the lesson therein
1. Always watch what you say, you never know who may be listening, and
2. Always treat people kindly.
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Hope R.
I don't know, MJ...
I see no reason for anyone who was abused or mistreated by people in TWI to lie about it. Maybe I'm naive. But I think that people who put their life in writing here at GS, and share their most horrible experiences with us have no ulterior motive. I think they want to help other people see what went on as well as get it out of their systems. There is no real purpose in faking abuse here.
No, not everyone who posts here is mentally healthy. That's because we're all in the process of recovering from an abusive cult.
I am one of the people who never saw a lot of what went on behind the scenes in TWI. The first 10 -12 years I was in were great. I had fun, met great people, and had a lot of experiences I will never regret. But I will not deny that while I was having a wonderful time, there were people who were being treated maliciously and abused.
I give everyone who posts here the benefit of the doubt. For me to say "prove it" to them is like me telling them their life is a lie. They don't have to prove it. The fact they're posting it here is proof enough for me.
Hope R. color>size>face>
"Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>
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mj412
Hope
I do not say anyone is lying .
Yet consider this when I was marked I actualy had people tell me what happened and why. to me.
Hope the story they said was so outrageous it wasnt even remotely close to what actualy happened and why.. I honestly said to one '"
EXCUSE ME um you are talking about MY LIFE not someone eles right???
He was trying to convince me the actual person he was talking about what had happened and how..it was different from(mine) the one who had the actual experience . I laughed out loud I couldnt believe how insane they got...
FIRST PERSON ME MY LIFE What happened and why ME and he said "no that is not what happened".
people got very very insane Hope many would not listen to reason at all. truth was as they see it or hear from another...Reality was shifty at best and often time went with what someone eles may have heard or thought without any base of personal truth..or experience yet it turned into an absolute truth...... for many.
it was amazing..... fantastic ****.
How do I know they were making up stories and lying?
IT WAS MY LIFE they said this and that about and I am not in denial I know How I got marked and avoided . they just thought they knew a story that worked for them and it was ugly and fit with what they wanted to hear to justify thier own position.
I am saying HOPE they made it up from the begining to the end and face to face they still clung to it as truth. Regardless of the reality of me saying it was not even close to what happened.
Ok?
people capable of that type of fantasy , I have no doubt some write at GS as well....
it was a cult people need to think what they need to think was truth HOPE.
Believe me that does not mean to me it is the truth of an experience.... or what really happened at all....
people love dirty laudry more than people in the way ministry. and out.
If you can believe this
I walked away full of love for the guy who marked me, not sexual boy girl love honest respect for the way leadership at the time...and full of love for God and the bible.
But a few months later I talked to those still involved and leaders and the story they told of how I was marked was one full of hate and pain.
not even close I was out , still loving and blessed , they were 000 in leadership postions and full of lies bold faced lies about me who they had never met, and hate for what happened.
It was twisted and sick....
So I have a very difficult time taking anything these posters say just for the words to say it.
I know the abuse because I know... I do not even want anyone to believe me, or pity me, or relate to me.
I am just glad I was not the only one,(I honestly believed that I was before GS) if others feel better and can help one another that makes Gs a good place.
I need no proof, I give no proof not to GS.
Yes I think people are capable of huge destructive lies from hell.
sadly the abusers and the sudo victims play in the same arena here along with those who are truthful. But that was and is the congregation of twi.... ex or not.
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karmicdebt
Hope,
Don't ever underestimate the power of denial. It is the mechanism that allows people to not see what is clearly evident to others. Sometimes the pain of reality is far too much for some to handle even though it is there in black in white.
I know. I nearly drowned in that river in Egypt.
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FreshAir 99
Hope,
Thanks for SPEAKING UP.
:)-->
It matters very little that a handful of posters come to GS and deny the MANY testimonies that have come forward thru the years. Few can dispute that thousands saw enough reason to withdraw and separate THEMSELVES from twi studies and activities.
Hiding behind walls of seclusion and denial, twi polishes its form of godliness. Most telling, the Scriptures warn us of leaders like this and their workings of darkness.
Let those "defenders of twi" post away........ if twi was a godly ministry, then they would uphold the truth and ABSTAIN FROM ALL APPEARANCE OF EVIL. Quite the contrary, twi embraces it!!
Fresh
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Hope R.
Ya know, Woodstock was a filthy, muddy mess. No food or shelter, not enough potable drinking water or bathrooms. There were over 400,000 people there - do you think many of them got to hear anything from the main stage? I know people who went that never even got close enough to see who was playing, let alone hear anything. Not to mention the bad acid floating around (?don?t take the brown window pane!?) and the heat strokes and the rain.
In an article I read: "It was chaos, wasn't it?" says The Who's Pete Townshend. "I mean, what was going on off the stage was just beyond comprehension -- stretchers and dead bodies and people throwing up and people having bad trips.?
But fast forward 30 years and ask anyone who went how they feel about having been at Woodstock and they?ll tell you: ?Man, it was the best! It was unbelievable! Nothing like that can ever happen again. Three days of peace and love and music. Jimi and Joni and Janis!?
Except Joni Mitchell didn?t perform at Woodstock. She wasn?t even there. She couldn?t attend because of a conflict in scheduling. Most people think she was there because she wrote the song. But nope - she never sang a note at Yasgur?s farm!
Memory is selective. We all remember the Rock of Ages like it was scaled down Woodstock sometimes. Peace, Love and Jesus. VP in a white suit. WOW burgers. Family Tables. Ahhhhh those were the good old days!
And we remember all those marvelous teachings! The lame man, the blind man, the man with the withered hand. We?ll never hear teachings like that again!
In reality, lots of us got rained on, our tents and sleeping bags were flooded. At the Shelby Fair Grounds, the flies were as thick as a rope in some places.
Some of the teachings were downright boring. And some of the music was just awful.
And many of us HAD to be there. Most of us worked our butts off and didn?t get any sleep. Some of us ran out of money, or lost jobs, or missed a wedding or special event because we went to ?the Rock!?
Our memories of those days are selective. I?ve realized that about my Corps experience recently as well. I tend to only remember the fun stuff, things that make the glass half full instead of half empty.
Then I hear stories from certain posters that bring back a lot of the reality of what TWI was really like underneath the sugar coating - and I see the empty half of the glass.
It?s easy to remember the good things. I think it may be a defense mechanism for many of us. I think the reality of TWI is a very bitter pill for many people to swallow.
Karmicdebt said it very wisely: ?Don't ever underestimate the power of denial. It is the mechanism that allows people to not see what is clearly evident to others. Sometimes the pain of reality is far too much for some to handle even though it is there in black in white.?
I never thought I?d say this but, I?m glad my parents didn?t let me go to Woodstock.
Hope R. color>size>face>
"And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>
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oldiesman
This can be a reality not only of the evil, but also of the good. I try to consider both, since both happened simultaneously.
I feel the same way, but think the difference is I haven't allowed the bad experiences of others to corrupt or "talk me out of" the godly experiences. When one refers to the whole of TWI as an "abusive cult", one seems to have already jumped on the hate-TWI bandwagon, irrespective of any godliness that occurred. I am sometimes befuddled by someone who stayed in TWI for so long and can't testify or be proud of how wonderful it was. Seems like all that matters are the sins of people.
I doubt if I will ever refer to the whole of TWI as an "abusive cult." The Corps maybe...we might all have been better off had that program never gotten off the ground.
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Jbarrax
Hope;
The problem for those of us who never had such horiffic experiences is that a forum post by an anonymous person carries little weight. If an allegation is posted by someone under their actual name, it's easy to try to verify it.
When scandalous accusations are leveled against respected leaders in society at large, most reasonable people expect some sort of corrobating evidence ala Monica Lewinsky's infamous blue dress. In the absence of corrobating evidence, it's "he said-she said"--the word of the accused vs the word of the accuser, in which case, the decision rests on the established credibility of the witnesses. But if the accuser isn't willing to reveal his or her identity, that credibility cannot be established, so the accused retains the benefit of the doubt.
One of the fundamental precepts of American life is that one is innocent until proven guilty. It's been said in this thread that this isn't a court of law. I presume the poster meant that we don't have to offer that same constitutional standard of innocence to the accused. However, one could also argue that, since we are dealing with the reputations of ministers, we should hold to ourselves to a standard that's higher than the secular one, not lower.
Let's face it, if I wanted to, I could sign on as "6th Corps Refugee" and talk of being accosted by VP in the motorcoach. So for those who still live by PFAL it's not enough that someone posted a story.
I'm not saying I don't personally believe the allegations against VP & co. The number and persistence of them is significant, and they fit with the character of things taught. In other words, I didn't see the fire, but I can clearly remember seeing and smelling the smoke.
But for those who didn't see either one and want to cling to the benefits received in TWI, it's easy to dismiss allegations offered by people who won't tell you their real names.
Peace
JerryB
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masterherbalist
Credibility etablished based on revealing identities? No, I don't think so.
First of all, Hope HAS revealed the name on her Corps name tag- now, do you believe her? Didn't think so..........
Most importantly, use the spiritual perception and awareness you were trained to use! Read the Bible! I personally was not a part to first hand knowledge, HOWEVER, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has webbed feet like a duck, has feathers and a bill like a duck- I have no problem calling it a duck.
A tree is known by its fruit. Observe the fruit carefully- use everything you have.
Though they be given a sign (ie a name tag) yet they will not believe.
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Grizzy
You know Hope there is some advantage to when a person left that allowed us to see things more clearly than what let?s say someone leaving during the fog or before.
People that left earlier and are just now looking around have their experience from being in Twi and all the good. Then they have what is easily seen as second hand reports from former followers and disgruntled leaders to compare what they knew and saw and really what they lived.
Now, after I left and had some *images* of leaders I had known personally and had nothing but respect for; well the *images* turned out to be false. I can say that because I was able to get the other side of the story from people that saw the real or evil side to the same leaders. I think of yours and John?s dealings with your last RC and being able to see the stories of the lawsuit on WayDale and get in writing denials to knowing any thing from those last leaders you had.
Make any sense? We have had the availability to look into things, while they may be second hand to us they are first hand from the people we have talked to. Like the former RC I had, he was nothing but gracious and fun to be around as was his wife. I really enjoyed my one on one time with the guy, getting my paws all dirty and greasy with him and enjoying some down to earth conversation. But, then I got the story of how a person I knew went to leaders with a question and this guy ran them through the dirt; digging up years of filth and second hand information to destroy their credibility. I also was able to talk to people in a court room that heard testimony from former clergy and how this guy denied and tried to discredit this former clergy. Then the RC did a great job of covering and damage control.
But, if you left years ago with a Woodstock was beautiful memory it becomes almost impossible to see all the mud and disaster because you don?t trust who is calling it mud and you are not able to get fresh first hand reports from people that saw the real other side.
Grizzy COLOR>SIZE>
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mj412
hope
I think your a powerful force at grease spot because your willing to give your name an history.
that is great.
I can not and will never say all the story with names. To protect my children .
it is just that simple.
they have a right to peace and not have what happened to us all over the press.
Mine does involve courts and jail and lots of really nasty stuff but i have tried my best to be honest and protect them.
I will die some day and whatever I do I do not want to bring them in to stuff now...
my older ones would understand but I still have children that would or could be hurt and we frankly do not need to deal with it all over again.
Yes I am afraid of what people can and do when ....ed off .
I will be honest after all we went through those who spew allegations I do look at close because I feel a bit like a hero sorry if that rides some of you .
I am .
the cost has been not only my life but others are involved as well .
I am angry at times more play victim but wouldnt help the situation.
Hope if anyone understands why they didnt it would be me.... but it does not make what we went through any less damaging .
I was alone then . I may take it to my grave, I do not know when the time is right I will talk to the others the innocent ones and see if they care but I can not now.
so sometimes the proof is not going to be posted on an internet for a reason.
if that isnt good enough so be it.
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troubledwine
2 cents: I think the appearance of evil comment has a lot of merit. I keep going back to the thought that I haven't EVER read or heard of a teaching that was done on adultery even after the stuff come out publicly. I mean the PR man RM couldn't even make a statement that the ministry does not condone it?? Your "answer in the face of accusation" is "we are not prepared to make a statement at this time... we will be releasing a statement in the near future..." ?!?!?!?! Where is the "clearing of yourselves"??
I can't fathom how some claim to be so "spiritual" and can not uphold the BASIC precepts of godly sorrow. For the sake of those in the ministry they should have done that if not for the principle itself.
Seriously, how many still in hang in doubt of them to this very day because they haven't really taken a stand against it?
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Jbarrax
Masterherbalist, reread my post. You have misunderstood what I wrote.
Thou hast said, "First of all, Hope HAS revealed the name on her Corps name tag- now, do you believe her? Didn't think so.........."
Two problems there. Perhaps you didn't finish reading my post before you responded to it.
One: I didnt' say I don't believe these accounts. I said just the opposite. I'm just playing "devil's advocate" and presenting the other side of the story.
Two; I never implied that Hope herself was one of the accusers. She didn't say that any of these things happened to her. All she said was that she heard Craig scream at a friend of hers. That's not what we're talking about.
JerryB
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Schwaigers
Hope,
Think about WHOOOO exactly the Greasespotters are. We are a bunch of fairly bright people who somehow got convinced to not accept what our brains told us. In particular, I think of the Advanced Classes, where LCM told us that any personal experiences we might have had with ghosts, telepathy, visions, etc ... that these were all just tricks. He convinced us that our own experiences didn't count. A lot of us believed that crap. And just like many other bad habits aquired in TWI, it takes awhile to get rid of this one. A lot of us may still be denying things that really did happen to us, because that's a part of our programming that we still haven't cleaned out. We don't believe reality even when it's right there in front of us. Please don't misunderstand -- I've had some of my own posts here on GS ripped apart as though I had lied. But we gotta remember who frequents here, and how we each heal at a different pace. Love ya, Hope. -Pat
schwaiger@direcway.com
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GarthP2000
Frankly, I'm siding with JBarrax here. The concept of innocent until proven guilty is one of the things that make for a civilized society, even if the concept isn't as strictly enforced as it would be in court.
Not everybody who asks for 'proof' are doing so from a standpoint of defending VPW's reputation in such a blind fashion. Others have asked because they were indeed unaware of and shocked in hearing about this travesty inflicting the ministry, and would reasonably expect to hear of 'proof' that this happened to the extent that it did. I was one of them, and I am not sorry for asking for proof, evidence and verification that this happened. And neither did I require for people to give their names either, as I realize the security issues involved.
The vast number of accounts here have indeed proven true, but that is no reason to buy into the "I have the right to be believed" routine. Nobody has the right to be believed. They do, however, have a right to be heard.
Also, denial is a two-edged sword, and can cut both ways. And one form of denial are the oft-used excuses of 'programming', 'mind control', 'brainwashing' and the like. We use those terms because we don't want to admit to the world that we readily believed that stuff that we now see as garbage. "I must have been brainwashed to believe that stuff, that a rational person usually wouldn't believe". (
--> Ya know, I've heard that line used by an atheist once, in describing what he was taught in church!) So how much 'denial' is used in this respect, eh?
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Schwaigers
Garth, Do you think mind-control, progamming, and brainwashing are not real? -Pat
schwaiger@direcway.com
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seaspray
It occurs to me that I may be one of the posters Hope is referring to on this thread. Let me say that I don't doubt good people were seriously hurt over the years in the course of TWI operations. In fact, I know it to be true. How many, how badly; when, where, and in what manner is impossible to say. Some were injured such that they could not simply get up, brush themselves off, and get moving again.
Before I "got into the word", I was a ski patrolman. The primary focus of our work was first-aid to injured skiers. The first thing we did upon discovering an injured skier was take off our skis and stick them tail first in the snow like an X a few yards up slope. This identified and protected the injured skier's location. Next we determined the nature and extent of the victim's (we called them victims at that time) injuries. Most of the time they were conscious and we simply asked them where they hurt. If they weren't conscious, we got them breathing, stopped the bleeding and splinted limbs. In both cases we loaded them into a sled for the ride down hill. There they were shipped to a hospital where a doctor would take over. Sometimes Mom or Dad just came and picked them up.
Point I'm driving at is no injured skier was ever helped by a bunch of patrolmen standing around discussing how bad it was or who was at fault. We didn't talk about greedy, power hungry chair lift owners. We had training and we had a plan. It worked all the time every time. Even when it didn't work it worked.
Power for Abundant Living is the beginning of God's training and plan for His faithful, believing believer. It is we who have neglected, and in many cases, rejected this solution. This neglect and rejection resulted in the spiritual weakness and inability we all witnessed and experienced.
Why not come back to Power for Abundant Living? Why not open the books? Why should we question God's call to serve? Was it all bogus; just another big fat lie from hell? I don't think so. If it is life's a joke. There's nothing out there. It's just matter in motion.
Hope, is this what the deaf man heard?
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Jbarrax
To Seaspray:
Why not come back to Power For Abundant Living? Because it's full of errors that's why. VP didn't follow the keys he taught. If you take a closer look at it, this will become apparent. And since PFAL claims to be the key to an accurate, systematic understanding of God's Word these systemic problems make it a complete sham.
Is there some great truth in Power For Abundant living? Yes there is. Is it the revelation of keys to the understanding of God's Word VP said it was? Not on your life.
For more information, please visit the Actual Errors in PFAL thread or the PFAL REVIEWwebsite, which is my current homepage. But be warned. There's probably more wrong doctrine, illogic and nonsense in that class than you can possibly imagine. You may not like what you read.
Peace
JerryB
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alfakat
I would be VERY surprised to find that someone who REALLY believes we need to "come back to PFAL" will be WILLING to fully consider your major or minor premises, Jerry.
...only if they might be willing to set aside a rather extreme conclusion: That God Almighty gave PFAL to VPW of a whole cloth, right out of the sky. Even though it is demonstrably proveable that he not only read and assimilated but copy-and-pasted Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger and others word-for-word at times. Call it what you will, but vic was a presumptuous prophet. At this point, I would rather study Stiles, Leonard, et al, then a man who copied and called it his own.
sheeesh, crikey, cripes amighty, every SCHOOLKID knows that .... won't hack it.........
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GarthP2000
Not in the pat fashion that many 'anti-cult' people seem to think and apply the terms, Pat. (sorry for the play on your name.
:D-->)
Not to the degree or fashion that the 'experts' have depicted by their illustration of Korean War POWs and then used in such a liberal fashion about the current day 'cults'.
Not w/o further *independent* (and may I say, more professionally done) means of verifying and more honest application of the terms.
Does that answer your question?
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Hope R.
I appreciate all your responses. I don't think some of you got what I was trying to say, and I apologize for not making myself clearer.
Grizzy - I think I get what you're trying to communicate - and I agree. A lot of people who left early on have had a lot of time to forget the mud - and might not like seeing it when it's brought to their attention. (did I get it right?)
And Jerry, I didn't see the fire either. But I don't need to know where the fire is or who started it to see the smoke. For me,(and this is just me, mind you), if, as you said, the incident "fits with the character of things taught", I will always take the victim's word for it. That is not to say I never have any doubts about some incidents that were posted here. I have. But again - I try to give the victim the benefit of the doubt. I don't need to know their real name in order to believe them. And I may be a bleeding heart, but I do not understand how anyone would need to know someone's real name in order to make their story credible.
Masterherb - I don't think Jerry was being mean at all. I understand what he was trying to communicate, I just don't necessarily agree with him 100%.
MJ - I have never doubted you. I don't need to know your real name. I know you have been hurt. I don't think you are lying. I understand your reasons for not revealing who you are. Not knowing someone's real identity has never been a problem for me when it comes to their testimony.
Pat - I didn't think I implied that those who were abused were in denial. If I did, I apologize - it's not what I meant. The denial was in reference to the people who do not believe the stories of abuse. The fact that someone wouldn't believe your story and rip you apart as though you had lied is abhorrent to me. That's the kind of denial I'm talking about. The people who don't believe your story or mine. (love you, too!)
Garth - I know not everyone who asks for proof is doing so to defend TWI. You're right - the shock of hearing some of this stuff may require more information in order for our own heads to comprehend it.
But I could tell you a story about a guy who EVERYONE probably still thinks was the greatest guy in TWI, who made me feel like I was 2 inches tall. It would be hard for a lot of people here to believe because most people have had nothing but great experiences with this man. I couldn't prove it happened. No one else was there. Should I not tell the story because I have no proof? (I never have on these forums, btw, not because I have no proof, I just don't want to).
And I agree no one has the right to be believed. But we don't have the right to say their stories aren't true without proof.
Seaspray - I never mentioned any names. It has just been a general feeling of frustration. These forums are ex-TWI sites. And yes, we can present whatever side of TWI we want to, pro or con. But when people have been hurt beyond repair by the doctrines and practices of TWI, and a poster tells them to master PFAL or listen to old tapes of VP or read Blue Book - I want to SCREAM. They don't get it. I believe they refuse to see the other side of TWI. And I agree 100% with what Jerry said about PFAL. Go to the link he posted. It's an eye opener to those who think PFAL is akin to the Word of God.
Karmicdebt said it - and I think I might make it into a poster and hang it over my computer to remind me not to get so frustrated...
I'll repost it again because it makes so much sense that I'm sorry I didn't see it.
Thanks Karmicdebt - drop me an email sometime -
Hope R. color>size>face>
"And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>
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GarthP2000
Ohh looky! Smikeol, Part Deux: The PFAL Wars.
--> (looking around for my Mike of Borg pic)
So if PFAL is all a bogus, then all of life is a joke?? Come on man, isn't your God bigger than some 36 hour class taught by a guy who had a lousy selection of '50's style ties? Please tell me that He is, please!
And the abuse was because of our neglecting and rejecting of the PFAL Word?? Dr.s Last Teaching? Oh right! Spare me. Jeez! I don't think I need a 'god' (notice small 'g' here) like that.
Yukk!
:P-->
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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