The thing is like Job, we must learn to listen to God rather than men who are telling us what they think we should do and think, that's the key, to develop sensitivity toward knowing God and loyalties to God only, and not what someone else has regurgitated for us as their verson of God's will as the miserable comforters did.
Getting to the place which Job attained where it truely was just him and God, with no reliances on people or things is the big thing in life, I think few attain it under fire, it's not easy to resist and not succumb to the pulls from people, however well intentioned or sincere they are.
Looking back on a lot of my own bad experiences, I can say a lot of them occurred because I hadn't put my trust completely in God. Many of those things happened because I trusted in myself or because I had trusted someone else. Speaking solely from the examples you provided - where is one placing their trust?
Why do people still blame a TWI leader, a pastor or anybody else for that matter. Why else? Because they "trusted" them. Oh yeah, it isn't something we like or that we even want to admit many times, but it's still the truth.
[Emphases mine.]
I'd like to address this, very simply:
Matthew 18:4-7 (KJV)
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Luke 17:1-2 (KJV)
1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
[Emphases mine.]
THAT'S why we blame so-called "leaders" who caused God's children to stumble, who committed offences against them.
Yes, it is God's will one learns something from these experiences, but you (like many others) end up confusing God's will with the bad experience, or end up concluding God's will is or = the bad experience. Read the book of Job. Job had a lot of bad experiences happen to him. God didn't prevent any of those bad things from happening to Job. It doesn't say that those bad things happened to him because he was a bad or a wicked person either.
God not preventing is much different than God doing, as I see it. (which separates you from catcarr on this) It indicates God did not over rule free will. The evil doer had free will and woe unto him ... as WW quotes.
Learning from these times we are "stolen" from by evildoers is also different than learning from times when God steals from us. Turning to a loving God when bad things happen is different than turning to an "abusive" Father just after he "abused" us.
If a thief steals from us, we can prosecute and buy better locks and a security system. But if it is God stealing from us, it becomes more arcane or mysterious.
It does seem in the OT that God was depicted as more of a vengeful God, and that He opened the door for evil to be done to a good Job. I guess there are many ways to evaluate that. But certainly the NT is more the loving Father, with bad things being the act of the thief.
...where is one placing their trust? Why do people still blame a TWI leader, a pastor or anybody else for that matter. Why else? Because they "trusted" them. Oh yeah, it isn't something we like or that we even want to admit many times, but it's still the truth.
You can trust people and still be trusting God. When someone is entrusted with a trust and they break that trust, I want them prosecuted. People that take on greater responsibility (positions of trust) have greater obligations. Embezzlement should be dealt with more harshly than theft, because not only did they steal, but they broke their higher duty of trust.
When you go to a TWI minister, you should have reasonable espectation that they will minister God's Word to you to the best of their ability. If they use your trust in them to convince you sex with them would be healing, this is a most heinous act of corruption. You probably realize that professional counsellors are not supposed to have sex with their patients. Ministers should be held to a higher standard, not lower.
I still blame TWI leaders for being dishonest and deceitful. I received no recompense to what I believe amounted to a fraudulent operation. The assets TWI has now, I believe were accumulated by deceit. Monies that were collected to do good, were used ony for the good of a few at the top, putting them in a position to do harm to more innocent people that came to them. They should be blamed.
That doesn't mean I didn't go on with my life. Unprosecuted bad things happen all the time. But the people that get away with things should be blamed and viewed with contempt. I see nothing wrong with that. I trust God will deal with them later perhaps, but I also believe in dealing with bad deeds now. I don't plan to prosecute TWI now, but it doesn't mean they are blameless.
It was not a religion in the same sense as Catholicism or Methodist or Lutheran, etc.
Many, but not all of us, lived a lifestyle that was dictated to us.
The people doing the "dictating" did not always have our best interests at heart.
If you are a Methodist or a Catholic or some other religion, you go to church, you possibly participate in church activities, you have a set of doctrines that you try to pattern your life after.
But, for the most part, you have freedom to live your life as you choose, within reason.
In a cult, it does not work that way.
The leaders tell you how to talk, how to smile, how to dress, what jobs you can and can't accept.
They told people when they could get pregnant and when they could not, or worse, when they should terminate their pregnancies because they would detract from the amount of commitment they could devote to the group.
You can only marry within the group.
For that matter, you can only date people in the group.
Some of the programs required a full accounting of every minute of the individuals day(in writing.)
You were not permitted to question leadership or discuss concerns with other members.
You weren't supposed to even privately think about discrepancies you saw because that could lead to your personal downfall in a manner similar to the downfall of Eve as she considered what the serpent said.
Bear in mind that I'm actually minimizing some of these things.
That is why this is not about something you expect to see in all religions.
When I left, I did not feel like I had left God but I felt like I had disappointed Him by leaving what I thought was the one true household.
My problem was never with God, per se, it was with an organization that functioned as a cult.
I believe it is the idea of associating with an organization that repulses many people, not the idea of having a relationship with God or Jesus Christ.
Many people here will tell you they now feel a freedom to know God that they were never able to while their thinking was prescribed by the cult.
In a nutshell, the scripted lifestyle we were required to live probably had a much larger impact than any one particular doctrine.
Hello Waysider,
I can understand yours and others need to explain to me because I am percieved as an outsider (no disrespect taken) because I told you I was not a member of the way interational. But I would like to add to that, I'm very familiar with what you wrote above and I'd like to add a few things to it that I do not see there.
Not being permitted to vote, not being permitted to join the military, not being permitted to recieve a blood transfusion in effect watching your spouse or children die if one is needed, making that decision to stand by and accept their death rather than give permission for a blood transfusion. One must also SHUN their entire family who is not part of the religion. Not ever permitted to go inside a chruch. Not ever permitted to speak to a minister. TV and raido programs not permitted to be watched or listened to as well as movies at the moive theaters. Not being permitted to ever celebrate any type of holiday or birthday. Manditory reporting of fellow member if you see them do any of these things plus the ones you listed in your own account. Not permitted to hold any type of government job or political office. Adhereing to a list of jobs not permitted to be employed as. Children not permitted to date until the age of 18 and only then by chaperone and for the purpose of a prospective husband or wife. Divorcing a spouse who leaves the religion. Shuning all adult children over the age of 18 who are not members. Forced baptism after a certain length of time or shunning. Not permitted to engage in ANY social activity with a non member including but not limited to dinners unless you are in the process of making them converts. Making non members converts in a certain length of time or else shunning them. Not permitted for your children to say the plege of alegiance or even stand while others are saying it. Not to permit your children to engage in any social school activity. Home schooling perferred to public school. The type of employment acceptable for women is cleaning houses or offices. Required hours a week in service to the religion anywhere from 10-20.
I could go on and on but I think you get the picture that I am not an outsider to this "way of life" you are so dillegently try to explain to me. As I said before in previous posts there is nothing that has happened to you that is not common to all men. In other words just because a person tells you they are not a TWI member and never was it's not often wise to assume they need educated in the ways of you former life so that they could at least try and understand, but in your mind never fully, really, as you so elequently stated.
The desire to continue to set yourself in a special class of people is only the effects still lingering of your former religion. Assuming that people can't possibly understand your pain and anger and hurt because they were not apart of your religion is display of a STILL "special class of people" that you thought you found to begin with.
And I'd like you to consider that there are people in this world who HAVE NEVER GONE TO CHURCH or been apart of ANY religion who live these kind of lives just because they are involved with abusives spouses or parents who are often murder them for not complying. It is common among all men. I'm sorry you feel and "excluisvness" here but it just is not so. The only exclusive part of your whole experience is the NAME of the orgination, certainly NOT the expereince.
I'm sorry I almost feel like I need to lay my "credentials"of abuse on the table here for people to relax and accept when I say, "I know what you are talking about" instead of just at face value accepting it because I said I did.
I have at face value accepted everything every one has said about their feelsing of betrayal and anger and disappointment and they didn't need to explain to me what kind of life they lived in that religion for me to beleive it. I would have believed you wayside (and already did) without the laundry list of evidence of your abusers. But since you put it up there, I complied to it and placed my own for you to witness so that we can get past the "you just don't understand no disrespect intended" conversations.
Let none us fool ourselves or kid ourselves that we have a corner on abusive lifystles whether in a name of a religion or otherwise. What happens to you my friend is COMMON among all people. You may or maynot agree with that statment, some might even find it resentful. I'm not belittling anyone's experience but at the same time I'm not making is some special thing either.
WE all go through these things for a reason and a purpose which is why it IS common among all men. I'd like for you to honestly consider the why of your experince instead of the harrowing experience itself.
Paul spoke to them who came to him concerning the aweful things they suffered. Yet he told them as I tell you today, you have not suffered anything more than others or myself.
Wayside I heard in your words you make a seperation between your experience in the Way and God. Your ok with God it really isn't a problem with Christ or God you say just with that cult. I'd ask you to consider for yourself linking the two together for a moment. If you don't want to that fine, it's just said for you to consider.
Have you ever taken a class taught by Dr. Bruce Wilkinson titled "Secrets of the Vine" or maybe read the book? Your doctrine and beliefs are very close to his, that God causes the bad things to happen to you as well as the good things.
Lessee. I have a disease called insulin dependent diabetes mellitus. I don't know what you know about diabetes. It is a malfunction of the body's ability to produce insulin, in part or in whole. Mine is in whole. My pancreas shut down 13 years ago.
At the time, I was involved with TWI. I was asked, "Do you understand what it is THAT YOU DID that caused this to happen to you."
The questioner's thought was that surely I had sinned and God was punishing me, or "disciplining" me as the good Dr. Wilkinson would call it, for some sin I had committed.
But I think you are saying that God gave me diabetes indeed, but His purpose is not necessarily to discipline me but to bless me, by later delivering me from the disease, hopefully before my legs rot off or I go on dialysis?
You have just blessed Satan mightily by ascribing evil to God, or by saying all things are from God and therefore there is NO evil.
I'm no scholar, and I really don't care to be, but I do not see any evil in God. And trust me, diabetes, cancer, hepatitis, heart disease, suffering and death are not good things.
Personally, when Satan hands me lemons, I try to use them to make lemon chiffon pie, to bring glory to God and defy the wiles of the devil.
Ask yourself this: Is Jesus Christ the living Word? Did He represent God accurately? If you answer yes, then look in the gospels and show me where Jesus did something evil to someone. Did He make people sick or heal them? Did raise people from the dead or kill them? Who is the "thief" in John 10:10?
wg
Hello Watered Garden,
I do not know the individual you are talking about nor ever even heard of him. Unfortunately Watered you have made quite a few assumptions about what I believe and then commented on them and then you have given me senerios to ponder in light of those assumption.
The first thing I'd like to clear up is... I don't believe diabetes, cancer, hepatitis,heart disease, suffering and death are EVIL things. They are illnesses and common neither good or evil. Unfortuantely, many people believe that if illness befalls them it is EVIL, I don't believe that. But what I do know is that when illnesses befall men (and it befalls all mankind) they certainly turn their thoughts towards God whether in anger or for comfort. Either way they turn.
I really am not going to get into a debate as to why these things happen and to whom they happen to and whether that in itself is also evil. If everything in this world is either good or evil we will without a doubt spend our lives in anger or happy depending whether or not we percieve we are being given good or evil.
I'm going to give you an example of what I'm saying.
In hurricane Katrina many people lost their homes and all their belongs ect. It was a devastating event to say the least. In the days that followed there were interviews on the TV with the people affected by Katrina. Two type of people emerged. Thoses who were crushed in soul and spirit and those who were not. Those who were crushed by it were also angry and accusitory. Those who were not were peaceful and accepting. The event itself did not cause that reaction is either of those two type of people. Those that were already of a crushed heart and mind continued in that and those who were already of a peaceful accepting mind continued in that.
Now I know one might argue with me to the enth dregree that the event itself is what caused a normally peaceful mind to go into hopelessness and a normally crushed heart to "see the light" and peace set in. But I would like you to consider that the event caused the people to see themselves in truth and not what they want others to see them as or want they want to beleive about themselves.
Hardships of anykind WILL REVEAL to the world and ESPECIALLY to ourselves our true hearts and where they lie.
Another example is... I was always a person who just could never understand how an abused wife would stay in that relationship. Even to the point that I would recount to my friends and family and especially myself how I would have handled that. Of course I would not take that and I would leave and I was just shocked that these women didn't. I was SOLID in my "philosophy" (thinking) concerning what I would do. That is until the day I found myself in that very situation. I wished I could say I held to my former words and set emtions on the subject, but to my surprise I did not. The situation caused me to take a good hard look at myself and my own thoughts verus reality of the real sistuation. Does it always end like that? Do all women think they will never put up with that and then it happens and then they fail? Absolutely not, some do just as they said they would do. However, the point is...the hardship causes us to look AT US AND GOD in an honest way. Can't fake it anymore, can't pretend to know the answers and even if we know them can't always do what we know is right...hense the law of Moses that no man can keep.
Was God evil to place me in that situation to reveal my true self to me? God forbid. Was I angry with God because of it? No, although some will be, which is not evil either. Because the whole point no matter how you react is you are FORCED to face YOURSELF and your feelings about God. Jonah was!
Illness acomplishs this, deaths accomplish this, all trials and tribulations accomplish this! Job was an upright man in Gods eyes and he said so, all his trials and tribulations were to REVEAL this very truth to Satan and those watching, his friends, his wife. Have you ever considered that the Lord might use you MORE in this area to reveal his power and Glory through you and to you and OTHERS who are watching? Although in religions it's spoken just the opposite, it's said that these things happen to you because you are the free picking of satan unless you get saved, ofcourse all overlook that part. The part that you are incharge of your own salvation because you have the choice to do it or not and Jesus is just the means to accomplish your goal.
But we are NOT saved of ourselves! It is Gods will that all men be saved and not in a method in which they can boast of it either. No man comes to the Son EXCEPT the father draw him.
God is not evil, illnesses and deaths are not evil. You asked me if Jesus ran around doing evil to others but I would like to ask you if God was evil to have his son beaten, smacked, spit up, mocked, spit upon, nailed to a cross and put to death in the flesh? Of course you're going to say NOW WAY and that's not the same, but my friend is most certainly is!!! How is it you can see the "good" in that yet all other such things are evils? Is it because it is 2000 years later and now you know the purpose? Well how about them who stood that day and watched it, it not being even three days later when he would arise yet? They were FORCED to look at themselves and their beliefs AND at God, and he is no different today.
I know you have lived long enough on this earth to say many years after the fact, wow I know why that happened it was because of .....But no man is joyful while the chastiment is occuring. You see chastiments are NOT PUNISHMENTS for sins or wrongdoings (ask God about Job) they are to reveal the Lord to you and YOU TO YOU your true heart!!! Even though Job was and upright man who loved good and escwed evil, and even when the hardships came in all the things he said concerning God he sinned not with his lips, yet there was some pride in that heart of his that God wanted to reveal to Job, even after he set Job up as a light to those around him during the process. In the end Job's pride was revealed, and his friends saw his faith through the whole ordeal and Job himself acknowledge in the end he needed to be quiet now because although he knew much and had much faith...these things were given him of God and he didn't know "nuttin" in the end. That's what Job learned for himself by the experience.
Count it all joy when you suffer trials and tribulations...is not an empty usless ridiculous word. But see my friends when they come though you'd love to live in that manner and have that peace of mind and think you would even...you might very well find that you are VERY angry and resentful instead. The point being you will find out YOU in the hardship and also your true thoughts about God.
All these things the Spirit performs in men to the GLORY OF GOD who does all things and to whom all glory and honor and priase belongs!!!
Yes, it is God's will one learns something from these experiences, but you (like many others) end up confusing God's will with the bad experience, or end up concluding God's will is or = the bad experience. Read the book of Job. Job had a lot of bad experiences happen to him. God didn't prevent any of those bad things from happening to Job. It doesn't say that those bad things happened to him because he was a bad or a wicked person either.
WTH is this directed at me? if it is, I thought I'd just point out I'm NOT confused about God's will vs. bad experience.
Hi Cattcar9 and excuse my bad manners – I forgot to welcome you to Grease Spot.
As far as your response to my post - I don't mean to sound critical but maybe the doctrinal forum would be a better place for this stuff - where you could elaborate more on how you draw certain inferences from Scripture. Anyway – I'm a bit confused over your assertions – and you've failed to convince me from Scripture or logic that God does all things and that we believe because He causes us to believe…See, there's two ideas for threads in doctrinal right there…Have fun at Grease Spot – great people here – but I warn ya – folks will take you to task on the details of just about anything!
Hi T-bone,
Thank you so much for that reception, it is very nice to meet you! I know that you are not in any way trying to sound critical, but even if you were, that's ok. The way I see it T-bone, is I haven't failed in that thing you say I failed at because my goal was never to try and convince you of anything. It's just a witness of the things done in my life of God. I know it sounds absurd, but believing me isn't really what this is about to me. Speaking with and conversing with people is very enjoyable to me, and the ability to give witness of God concerning the things I speak about is AWESOME to me! As far as doctines go, I'm more speak of the things I've expereinced. Doctrine is something one follows or aheres to or practices, once that thing has been written in you and you experience it it no longer is doctrine but life!
I enjoyed reading your reply. If you read some of the other replys I have written you will see I am well aquainted with the style of leadership you were under. No matter what or how it happened or how you see leaving happened I am very glad to see you out from under the thing that grieved you! Also if you read other replys I have wriiten you will see that this is not about doctrine to me. I'm not trying to teach doctrine or persuade anyone of any kind of doctrine. I'm just recounting my life expereinced as they relate to myself and God.
Thank you for responding...till next time...have a wonderful day!!!
So what you are telling me is that Yes, God gave me diabetes, and I should be grateful and thankful, because He gave it to me for a purpose, whether it be to chastise me for sin or to prepare me for service?
You took a long, tortuous route to almost answer my questions. Most of them could be answered yes or no.
1) Do sickness and disease come from God? Yes or no.
2) For what purpose?
A) Education
B) Discipline
C) Blessing
3) Are sickness and disease therefore
A) Good
B) Gifts
C) Neither or both, depending on the attitude of the recipient.
4) Does Satan exist?
5) Is Satan evil?
6) Does Satan come to steal, kill and destroy? Does God? How do we know when something we perceive as negative comes into our lives if it is from God and good or from Satan and evil?
I myself believe that Adam and Eve sinned so enormously when they fell from grace that the earth and all that was in it was gradually poisoned by sin. The very soil no longer contains the nutrients needed to grow food that will provide health to our bodies. Our bodies themselves are so polluted by generation after generation of sin that even our genetic structure has been devastatingly affected. Hence, many diseases are genetically mediated. Is this the result of sin? Well, in the long run, yes. Not necessarily sin in that an individual is not tithing, praying, thinking Christ-like thoughts or performing good works, so God smites that individual with sickness, disease, and/or death, but that the very nature of man is sin, and even our DNA contains the markers of that sin.
Looking back, I see you kinda answered #1 that you don't believe catastrophes are good or evil, they just are, and how we react to them is what is important.
No it never has occurred to me that God might USE me more in this situation, i.e. diabetes. It has never occurred to me that God USES people like tools or a mop or broom or whatever. I know most churches pray thus, for us to be used by God as He sees fit. But I think that's pretty weird, that the God of the universe has to USE a dumb little person for some lesson He wants to teach someone. I don't think God is USING diabetes to teach me anything, either. He gave me His Word to teach me stuff.
That sounds like a parent threatening his child, "If you don't clean up your room RIGHT NOW, I will TAKE OFF MY BELT AND TEACH YOU A LESSON YOU WILL NOT SOON FORGET!"
I'm not angry at God that I'm diabetic. I'm not thankful, either. I don't personally believe that God is punishing me OR blessing me. I think most sickness and disease come under the heading of ".... Happens."
So what you are telling me is that Yes, God gave me diabetes, and I should be grateful and thankful, because He gave it to me for a purpose, whether it be to chastise me for sin or to prepare me for service?
You took a long, tortuous route to almost answer my questions. Most of them could be answered yes or no.
1) Do sickness and disease come from God? Yes or no.
2) For what purpose?
A) Education
B) Discipline
C) Blessing
3) Are sickness and disease therefore
A) Good
B) Gifts
C) Neither or both, depending on the attitude of the recipient.
4) Does Satan exist?
5) Is Satan evil?
6) Does Satan come to steal, kill and destroy? Does God? How do we know when something we perceive as negative comes into our lives if it is from God and good or from Satan and evil?
I myself believe that Adam and Eve sinned so enormously when they fell from grace that the earth and all that was in it was gradually poisoned by sin. The very soil no longer contains the nutrients needed to grow food that will provide health to our bodies. Our bodies themselves are so polluted by generation after generation of sin that even our genetic structure has been devastatingly affected. Hence, many diseases are genetically mediated. Is this the result of sin? Well, in the long run, yes. Not necessarily sin in that an individual is not tithing, praying, thinking Christ-like thoughts or performing good works, so God smites that individual with sickness, disease, and/or death, but that the very nature of man is sin, and even our DNA contains the markers of that sin.
Looking back, I see you kinda answered #1 that you don't believe catastrophes are good or evil, they just are, and how we react to them is what is important.
No it never has occurred to me that God might USE me more in this situation, i.e. diabetes. It has never occurred to me that God USES people like tools or a mop or broom or whatever. I know most churches pray thus, for us to be used by God as He sees fit. But I think that's pretty weird, that the God of the universe has to USE a dumb little person for some lesson He wants to teach someone. I don't think God is USING diabetes to teach me anything, either. He gave me His Word to teach me stuff.
That sounds like a parent threatening his child, "If you don't clean up your room RIGHT NOW, I will TAKE OFF MY BELT AND TEACH YOU A LESSON YOU WILL NOT SOON FORGET!"
I'm not angry at God that I'm diabetic. I'm not thankful, either. I don't personally believe that God is punishing me OR blessing me. I think most sickness and disease come under the heading of ".... Happens."
WG
I'm not telling you anything of the kind. I'm not sure who my comments were tortuose to, you possibly? In any event just because you want me to answer you in a way you have dertermined doesn't mean that I will, I don' t do here's the question and here's the options now pick which answer I have given you from the three that I will accept, sorry that's not my style. Thats not even a two way communication, it's one man deciding the question and the outcome, the only variable left to the person who he want's the conversation with is to pick which of three A,B,orC you have supplied them with. Either you are interested in this conversation because I am my own person or you're not. Seems to me your not. That's ok with me. As far as the rest of the questions that are not mutiple choice, wow is all I can say.
Well since you never considered that God might use a natural occuring event that is usually a hardship in peoples lives in a way that that person might take a good hard look at themselves and God, and others watching that might see things as well, I'm glad I brought it up because now you have considered it (Job, Paul and the man born blind from birth certainly did). Although I don't think yet you have considered what I am saying fully because your understanding of what I said and mine don't match up. Maybe you should consider re reading this paragraph or what I wrote to you again and see if you can see that how your hearing it is not how I am saying it. But in any event, there is a breakdown in communication here so I will be leaving off this subject with you for a while.
It is sin in our life that allows hurt and trouble.
yes God get glory when we humble our self and learn from our trials . What is life without learning?
some sin is handed down for generations, some blessings are handed down for generations it is promised in the bible that your childrens children will be blessed. Sin also goes down in generation, like a birth defect or a bad gene that causes issues in life.
God doesnt hurt his children he doesnt abuse them to teahc them a lesson, lessons are leanred because we have free will and decide to do some stupid thing just to say man i wont do that again, why so Jesus can teach us the Gods way of right livng.
I happen to believe Jesus saved us from more than death although that is plenty he also saves us from sin.
why would we need a saviour if life is all about god playing cat and mouse with His people?
I dunno dear no one wants their child hurt or to be betrayed, so your solution is what hate?
Love God hate your neighbor? Nah lady Jesus commanded we love no he doesnt say be stupid and trust he didnt trust man... but we make mistakes and that is why he says forgivness is theother key .
my take on God is pretty much: s**t happens, God delivers, but you work your arse off and pay attention because there's always more s**t coming your way. it's just life.
Well since you never considered that God might use a natural occuring event that is usually a hardship in peoples lives in a way that that person might take a good hard look at themselves and God
But didn't you say God does all things ... so God caused the "naturally occuring event".
You seem to feel when people disagree with you, they are upset so you take that as ... well I won't discuss this becasue you are upset, and I take it as .. you won't discuss it becasue you disagree.
I agree people should agree with me, because I am right ... but I usually take the time to try to correct their ill conceived ideas.
But I don't see much progress here, we still don't know why God allows evil to exist. Why didn't he just make us perfect and happy all the time?
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rascal
Wow WTH, that is the first post I have ever read from you that has made any sense to me!
As far as blaming those we trusted?? Shoot yeah, but as ministers of God...one would EXPECT them to be trustworthy :)
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Bluzeman
No problem here Clay. :)
Rick
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now I see
Good post What the Hey!
The thing is like Job, we must learn to listen to God rather than men who are telling us what they think we should do and think, that's the key, to develop sensitivity toward knowing God and loyalties to God only, and not what someone else has regurgitated for us as their verson of God's will as the miserable comforters did.
Getting to the place which Job attained where it truely was just him and God, with no reliances on people or things is the big thing in life, I think few attain it under fire, it's not easy to resist and not succumb to the pulls from people, however well intentioned or sincere they are.
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waysider
Seems to me like we could probably discuss this stuff in BOTH forums.
Take the doctrinal components and start a related thread(s) in "doctrinal".
Leave the components that relate to the organization here in "about the cult Way".
Just a thought.
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cman
you know when it's really looked at.
It has been people speaking the word in the bible.
Most of the books have peoples names on them.
One must listen to see if the one speaking strikes a spiritual chord within.
And I don't mean just more head knowledge to acquire.
But words spoken that activate the spirit.
Yes it will be new at first and even frightening possibly.
How to recognize this would be in the individual.
Not of 'ourselves' but still within us.
Words that are beyond the human self and touching something else inside.
And there are people that can recognize the tongue of the spirit.
And speak in the spirit.
As we know.
The bible-written by men.
If it is a man to man communication, which it is in part.
Then very little is to be gained, but the start or basic knowledge of the words written.
But I believe it is a spirit to spirit communication, still one spirit.
And these spiritual words will be understood as we are given the understanding and wisdom.
Also not to be stopped or hindered by one understanding but to grow in understanding and wisdom.
A progression which continues into more and new things as well as redemtion of the old.
Keeping that which is to be kept.
We are given it, it is not our doing,
And there is also spirit to spirit, one spirit, communication among people.
Of which is the very ingredient that I'm trying to point out.
To let go and just reflect and consider.
No Decision is being forced.
Just a chance to see and decide for yourself.
If it is godly, there are no strings attached.
But the endeavor and hunger for more persists.
Or can be forsaken..........
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WordWolf
[Emphases mine.]
I'd like to address this, very simply:
Matthew 18:4-7 (KJV)
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Luke 17:1-2 (KJV)
1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
[Emphases mine.]
THAT'S why we blame so-called "leaders" who caused God's children to stumble, who committed offences against them.
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rhino
God not preventing is much different than God doing, as I see it. (which separates you from catcarr on this) It indicates God did not over rule free will. The evil doer had free will and woe unto him ... as WW quotes.
Learning from these times we are "stolen" from by evildoers is also different than learning from times when God steals from us. Turning to a loving God when bad things happen is different than turning to an "abusive" Father just after he "abused" us.
If a thief steals from us, we can prosecute and buy better locks and a security system. But if it is God stealing from us, it becomes more arcane or mysterious.
It does seem in the OT that God was depicted as more of a vengeful God, and that He opened the door for evil to be done to a good Job. I guess there are many ways to evaluate that. But certainly the NT is more the loving Father, with bad things being the act of the thief.
You can trust people and still be trusting God. When someone is entrusted with a trust and they break that trust, I want them prosecuted. People that take on greater responsibility (positions of trust) have greater obligations. Embezzlement should be dealt with more harshly than theft, because not only did they steal, but they broke their higher duty of trust.
When you go to a TWI minister, you should have reasonable espectation that they will minister God's Word to you to the best of their ability. If they use your trust in them to convince you sex with them would be healing, this is a most heinous act of corruption. You probably realize that professional counsellors are not supposed to have sex with their patients. Ministers should be held to a higher standard, not lower.
I still blame TWI leaders for being dishonest and deceitful. I received no recompense to what I believe amounted to a fraudulent operation. The assets TWI has now, I believe were accumulated by deceit. Monies that were collected to do good, were used ony for the good of a few at the top, putting them in a position to do harm to more innocent people that came to them. They should be blamed.
That doesn't mean I didn't go on with my life. Unprosecuted bad things happen all the time. But the people that get away with things should be blamed and viewed with contempt. I see nothing wrong with that. I trust God will deal with them later perhaps, but I also believe in dealing with bad deeds now. I don't plan to prosecute TWI now, but it doesn't mean they are blameless.
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cattcar9
Hello Waysider,
I can understand yours and others need to explain to me because I am percieved as an outsider (no disrespect taken) because I told you I was not a member of the way interational. But I would like to add to that, I'm very familiar with what you wrote above and I'd like to add a few things to it that I do not see there.
Not being permitted to vote, not being permitted to join the military, not being permitted to recieve a blood transfusion in effect watching your spouse or children die if one is needed, making that decision to stand by and accept their death rather than give permission for a blood transfusion. One must also SHUN their entire family who is not part of the religion. Not ever permitted to go inside a chruch. Not ever permitted to speak to a minister. TV and raido programs not permitted to be watched or listened to as well as movies at the moive theaters. Not being permitted to ever celebrate any type of holiday or birthday. Manditory reporting of fellow member if you see them do any of these things plus the ones you listed in your own account. Not permitted to hold any type of government job or political office. Adhereing to a list of jobs not permitted to be employed as. Children not permitted to date until the age of 18 and only then by chaperone and for the purpose of a prospective husband or wife. Divorcing a spouse who leaves the religion. Shuning all adult children over the age of 18 who are not members. Forced baptism after a certain length of time or shunning. Not permitted to engage in ANY social activity with a non member including but not limited to dinners unless you are in the process of making them converts. Making non members converts in a certain length of time or else shunning them. Not permitted for your children to say the plege of alegiance or even stand while others are saying it. Not to permit your children to engage in any social school activity. Home schooling perferred to public school. The type of employment acceptable for women is cleaning houses or offices. Required hours a week in service to the religion anywhere from 10-20.
I could go on and on but I think you get the picture that I am not an outsider to this "way of life" you are so dillegently try to explain to me. As I said before in previous posts there is nothing that has happened to you that is not common to all men. In other words just because a person tells you they are not a TWI member and never was it's not often wise to assume they need educated in the ways of you former life so that they could at least try and understand, but in your mind never fully, really, as you so elequently stated.
The desire to continue to set yourself in a special class of people is only the effects still lingering of your former religion. Assuming that people can't possibly understand your pain and anger and hurt because they were not apart of your religion is display of a STILL "special class of people" that you thought you found to begin with.
And I'd like you to consider that there are people in this world who HAVE NEVER GONE TO CHURCH or been apart of ANY religion who live these kind of lives just because they are involved with abusives spouses or parents who are often murder them for not complying. It is common among all men. I'm sorry you feel and "excluisvness" here but it just is not so. The only exclusive part of your whole experience is the NAME of the orgination, certainly NOT the expereince.
I'm sorry I almost feel like I need to lay my "credentials"of abuse on the table here for people to relax and accept when I say, "I know what you are talking about" instead of just at face value accepting it because I said I did.
I have at face value accepted everything every one has said about their feelsing of betrayal and anger and disappointment and they didn't need to explain to me what kind of life they lived in that religion for me to beleive it. I would have believed you wayside (and already did) without the laundry list of evidence of your abusers. But since you put it up there, I complied to it and placed my own for you to witness so that we can get past the "you just don't understand no disrespect intended" conversations.
Let none us fool ourselves or kid ourselves that we have a corner on abusive lifystles whether in a name of a religion or otherwise. What happens to you my friend is COMMON among all people. You may or maynot agree with that statment, some might even find it resentful. I'm not belittling anyone's experience but at the same time I'm not making is some special thing either.
WE all go through these things for a reason and a purpose which is why it IS common among all men. I'd like for you to honestly consider the why of your experince instead of the harrowing experience itself.
Paul spoke to them who came to him concerning the aweful things they suffered. Yet he told them as I tell you today, you have not suffered anything more than others or myself.
Wayside I heard in your words you make a seperation between your experience in the Way and God. Your ok with God it really isn't a problem with Christ or God you say just with that cult. I'd ask you to consider for yourself linking the two together for a moment. If you don't want to that fine, it's just said for you to consider.
Till next time...have a great day!!!
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cattcar9
Hello Watered Garden,
I do not know the individual you are talking about nor ever even heard of him. Unfortunately Watered you have made quite a few assumptions about what I believe and then commented on them and then you have given me senerios to ponder in light of those assumption.
The first thing I'd like to clear up is... I don't believe diabetes, cancer, hepatitis,heart disease, suffering and death are EVIL things. They are illnesses and common neither good or evil. Unfortuantely, many people believe that if illness befalls them it is EVIL, I don't believe that. But what I do know is that when illnesses befall men (and it befalls all mankind) they certainly turn their thoughts towards God whether in anger or for comfort. Either way they turn.
I really am not going to get into a debate as to why these things happen and to whom they happen to and whether that in itself is also evil. If everything in this world is either good or evil we will without a doubt spend our lives in anger or happy depending whether or not we percieve we are being given good or evil.
I'm going to give you an example of what I'm saying.
In hurricane Katrina many people lost their homes and all their belongs ect. It was a devastating event to say the least. In the days that followed there were interviews on the TV with the people affected by Katrina. Two type of people emerged. Thoses who were crushed in soul and spirit and those who were not. Those who were crushed by it were also angry and accusitory. Those who were not were peaceful and accepting. The event itself did not cause that reaction is either of those two type of people. Those that were already of a crushed heart and mind continued in that and those who were already of a peaceful accepting mind continued in that.
Now I know one might argue with me to the enth dregree that the event itself is what caused a normally peaceful mind to go into hopelessness and a normally crushed heart to "see the light" and peace set in. But I would like you to consider that the event caused the people to see themselves in truth and not what they want others to see them as or want they want to beleive about themselves.
Hardships of anykind WILL REVEAL to the world and ESPECIALLY to ourselves our true hearts and where they lie.
Another example is... I was always a person who just could never understand how an abused wife would stay in that relationship. Even to the point that I would recount to my friends and family and especially myself how I would have handled that. Of course I would not take that and I would leave and I was just shocked that these women didn't. I was SOLID in my "philosophy" (thinking) concerning what I would do. That is until the day I found myself in that very situation. I wished I could say I held to my former words and set emtions on the subject, but to my surprise I did not. The situation caused me to take a good hard look at myself and my own thoughts verus reality of the real sistuation. Does it always end like that? Do all women think they will never put up with that and then it happens and then they fail? Absolutely not, some do just as they said they would do. However, the point is...the hardship causes us to look AT US AND GOD in an honest way. Can't fake it anymore, can't pretend to know the answers and even if we know them can't always do what we know is right...hense the law of Moses that no man can keep.
Was God evil to place me in that situation to reveal my true self to me? God forbid. Was I angry with God because of it? No, although some will be, which is not evil either. Because the whole point no matter how you react is you are FORCED to face YOURSELF and your feelings about God. Jonah was!
Illness acomplishs this, deaths accomplish this, all trials and tribulations accomplish this! Job was an upright man in Gods eyes and he said so, all his trials and tribulations were to REVEAL this very truth to Satan and those watching, his friends, his wife. Have you ever considered that the Lord might use you MORE in this area to reveal his power and Glory through you and to you and OTHERS who are watching? Although in religions it's spoken just the opposite, it's said that these things happen to you because you are the free picking of satan unless you get saved, ofcourse all overlook that part. The part that you are incharge of your own salvation because you have the choice to do it or not and Jesus is just the means to accomplish your goal.
But we are NOT saved of ourselves! It is Gods will that all men be saved and not in a method in which they can boast of it either. No man comes to the Son EXCEPT the father draw him.
God is not evil, illnesses and deaths are not evil. You asked me if Jesus ran around doing evil to others but I would like to ask you if God was evil to have his son beaten, smacked, spit up, mocked, spit upon, nailed to a cross and put to death in the flesh? Of course you're going to say NOW WAY and that's not the same, but my friend is most certainly is!!! How is it you can see the "good" in that yet all other such things are evils? Is it because it is 2000 years later and now you know the purpose? Well how about them who stood that day and watched it, it not being even three days later when he would arise yet? They were FORCED to look at themselves and their beliefs AND at God, and he is no different today.
I know you have lived long enough on this earth to say many years after the fact, wow I know why that happened it was because of .....But no man is joyful while the chastiment is occuring. You see chastiments are NOT PUNISHMENTS for sins or wrongdoings (ask God about Job) they are to reveal the Lord to you and YOU TO YOU your true heart!!! Even though Job was and upright man who loved good and escwed evil, and even when the hardships came in all the things he said concerning God he sinned not with his lips, yet there was some pride in that heart of his that God wanted to reveal to Job, even after he set Job up as a light to those around him during the process. In the end Job's pride was revealed, and his friends saw his faith through the whole ordeal and Job himself acknowledge in the end he needed to be quiet now because although he knew much and had much faith...these things were given him of God and he didn't know "nuttin" in the end. That's what Job learned for himself by the experience.
Count it all joy when you suffer trials and tribulations...is not an empty usless ridiculous word. But see my friends when they come though you'd love to live in that manner and have that peace of mind and think you would even...you might very well find that you are VERY angry and resentful instead. The point being you will find out YOU in the hardship and also your true thoughts about God.
All these things the Spirit performs in men to the GLORY OF GOD who does all things and to whom all glory and honor and priase belongs!!!
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potato
WTH
is this directed at me? if it is, I thought I'd just point out I'm NOT confused about God's will vs. bad experience.
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cattcar9
Hi T-bone,
Thank you so much for that reception, it is very nice to meet you! I know that you are not in any way trying to sound critical, but even if you were, that's ok. The way I see it T-bone, is I haven't failed in that thing you say I failed at because my goal was never to try and convince you of anything. It's just a witness of the things done in my life of God. I know it sounds absurd, but believing me isn't really what this is about to me. Speaking with and conversing with people is very enjoyable to me, and the ability to give witness of God concerning the things I speak about is AWESOME to me! As far as doctines go, I'm more speak of the things I've expereinced. Doctrine is something one follows or aheres to or practices, once that thing has been written in you and you experience it it no longer is doctrine but life!
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cattcar9
Hi Bramble,
I enjoyed reading your reply. If you read some of the other replys I have written you will see I am well aquainted with the style of leadership you were under. No matter what or how it happened or how you see leaving happened I am very glad to see you out from under the thing that grieved you! Also if you read other replys I have wriiten you will see that this is not about doctrine to me. I'm not trying to teach doctrine or persuade anyone of any kind of doctrine. I'm just recounting my life expereinced as they relate to myself and God.
Thank you for responding...till next time...have a wonderful day!!!
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Watered Garden
So what you are telling me is that Yes, God gave me diabetes, and I should be grateful and thankful, because He gave it to me for a purpose, whether it be to chastise me for sin or to prepare me for service?
You took a long, tortuous route to almost answer my questions. Most of them could be answered yes or no.
1) Do sickness and disease come from God? Yes or no.
2) For what purpose?
A) Education
B) Discipline
C) Blessing
3) Are sickness and disease therefore
A) Good
B) Gifts
C) Neither or both, depending on the attitude of the recipient.
4) Does Satan exist?
5) Is Satan evil?
6) Does Satan come to steal, kill and destroy? Does God? How do we know when something we perceive as negative comes into our lives if it is from God and good or from Satan and evil?
I myself believe that Adam and Eve sinned so enormously when they fell from grace that the earth and all that was in it was gradually poisoned by sin. The very soil no longer contains the nutrients needed to grow food that will provide health to our bodies. Our bodies themselves are so polluted by generation after generation of sin that even our genetic structure has been devastatingly affected. Hence, many diseases are genetically mediated. Is this the result of sin? Well, in the long run, yes. Not necessarily sin in that an individual is not tithing, praying, thinking Christ-like thoughts or performing good works, so God smites that individual with sickness, disease, and/or death, but that the very nature of man is sin, and even our DNA contains the markers of that sin.
Looking back, I see you kinda answered #1 that you don't believe catastrophes are good or evil, they just are, and how we react to them is what is important.
No it never has occurred to me that God might USE me more in this situation, i.e. diabetes. It has never occurred to me that God USES people like tools or a mop or broom or whatever. I know most churches pray thus, for us to be used by God as He sees fit. But I think that's pretty weird, that the God of the universe has to USE a dumb little person for some lesson He wants to teach someone. I don't think God is USING diabetes to teach me anything, either. He gave me His Word to teach me stuff.
That sounds like a parent threatening his child, "If you don't clean up your room RIGHT NOW, I will TAKE OFF MY BELT AND TEACH YOU A LESSON YOU WILL NOT SOON FORGET!"
I'm not angry at God that I'm diabetic. I'm not thankful, either. I don't personally believe that God is punishing me OR blessing me. I think most sickness and disease come under the heading of ".... Happens."
WG
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cattcar9
I'm not telling you anything of the kind. I'm not sure who my comments were tortuose to, you possibly? In any event just because you want me to answer you in a way you have dertermined doesn't mean that I will, I don' t do here's the question and here's the options now pick which answer I have given you from the three that I will accept, sorry that's not my style. Thats not even a two way communication, it's one man deciding the question and the outcome, the only variable left to the person who he want's the conversation with is to pick which of three A,B,orC you have supplied them with. Either you are interested in this conversation because I am my own person or you're not. Seems to me your not. That's ok with me. As far as the rest of the questions that are not mutiple choice, wow is all I can say.
Well since you never considered that God might use a natural occuring event that is usually a hardship in peoples lives in a way that that person might take a good hard look at themselves and God, and others watching that might see things as well, I'm glad I brought it up because now you have considered it (Job, Paul and the man born blind from birth certainly did). Although I don't think yet you have considered what I am saying fully because your understanding of what I said and mine don't match up. Maybe you should consider re reading this paragraph or what I wrote to you again and see if you can see that how your hearing it is not how I am saying it. But in any event, there is a breakdown in communication here so I will be leaving off this subject with you for a while.
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pond
It is sin in our life that allows hurt and trouble.
yes God get glory when we humble our self and learn from our trials . What is life without learning?
some sin is handed down for generations, some blessings are handed down for generations it is promised in the bible that your childrens children will be blessed. Sin also goes down in generation, like a birth defect or a bad gene that causes issues in life.
God doesnt hurt his children he doesnt abuse them to teahc them a lesson, lessons are leanred because we have free will and decide to do some stupid thing just to say man i wont do that again, why so Jesus can teach us the Gods way of right livng.
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waysider
"God is love."
How much simpler can it get?
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pond
I happen to believe Jesus saved us from more than death although that is plenty he also saves us from sin.
why would we need a saviour if life is all about god playing cat and mouse with His people?
I dunno dear no one wants their child hurt or to be betrayed, so your solution is what hate?
Love God hate your neighbor? Nah lady Jesus commanded we love no he doesnt say be stupid and trust he didnt trust man... but we make mistakes and that is why he says forgivness is theother key .
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potato
my take on God is pretty much: s**t happens, God delivers, but you work your arse off and pay attention because there's always more s**t coming your way. it's just life.
and that's the truth
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rhino
But didn't you say God does all things ... so God caused the "naturally occuring event".
You seem to feel when people disagree with you, they are upset so you take that as ... well I won't discuss this becasue you are upset, and I take it as .. you won't discuss it becasue you disagree.
I agree people should agree with me, because I am right ... but I usually take the time to try to correct their ill conceived ideas.
But I don't see much progress here, we still don't know why God allows evil to exist. Why didn't he just make us perfect and happy all the time?
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pond
I think He id make us perfect and happy all the time.
then sin happened because adam decided to sin, it iw written in the bible how the whole mess began quite clearly.
The second Adam Jesus christ cleared things up nicely, now to accept Him as the one who Saved us form what adam did is up to each of us.
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waysider
This whole conversation kinda reminds me of selling PLAF witnessing.
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happyheart
LOL. It was like we were all unpaid amway reps.
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cman
Yeah blame Adam.
Not God, of which not many understand.
Not that we blame God but this is the human condition.
Adam made it better-believe it or not.
Show me on e scripture that says what Adam did was the 'fall' of man.
As so many say.
And whether we have diabiates or anything else.
It's how we deal with these things that matter.
We will all die of something, that is certain.
Genesis is just plain misunderstood.
Perhaps some time we could explore the other possibilities.
And yes God is Love and Love is God.
No matter what we are dealing with.
The perceived good and the natural course of life and death and life.
And btw, we are all dieing.
And will.
In the same boat, ya know.
The last enemy to be destroyed.
Heck, how Are we dealing with the present ones.
We Are Told to LOVE our enemies.
Figure that one out and get a new smile. :)
How many things are recorded that these men and women who spoke the word endured.
What was their response?
What was God's response?
Both the same.
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Watered Garden
What Waysider said!
WG
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