I am new here and I wanted to thank you all for sharing. Potato, you seem to be very intelligent like you belong to Menza or something. I really enjoy your posts. There is one thing I don't understand though. Is White Dove a representitive for the way International? What about Bumpy and Pond? Do they still fellowship with the way? Potato, is that why you respond to them so much? Just wondering. Don't want to insult anyone, just trying to understand. I feel ike this web site is very healing to those who have been hurt by the Way International. Thanks for having this web site and for all that you contribute. It has truly helped me.
I am new here and I wanted to thank you all for sharing. Potato, you seem to be very intelligent like you belong to Menza or something. I really enjoy your posts. There is one thing I don't understand though. Is White Dove a representitive for the way International? What about Bumpy and Pond? Do they still fellowship with the way? Potato, is that why you respond to them so much? Just wondering. Don't want to insult anyone, just trying to understand. I feel ike this web site is very healing to those who have been hurt by the Way International. Thanks for having this web site and for all that you contribute. It has truly helped me.
hi happyheart, welcome!
thanks for the compliments
I can't speak for what WD, pond and bumpy are up to... I respond to WD for probably the same reasons others here do when it'd be easier to ignore him, and that is because I hate bullies. I had enough when I was in twi and I just want people to let other people take their own healing road and lend a helping hand on the way... now bumpy is one I don't understand for the most part although once in a while he'll say something intelligent so I've decided to take him with a grain of salt as long as he contains his mean streak.
you'll find there's some disagreement here (which to me is great, since we couldn't do that in twi!) and lots of stories and opinions to read.
I am new here and I wanted to thank you all for sharing. Potato, you seem to be very intelligent like you belong to Menza or something. I really enjoy your posts. There is one thing I don't understand though. Is White Dove a representitive for the way International? What about Bumpy and Pond? Do they still fellowship with the way? Potato, is that why you respond to them so much? Just wondering. Don't want to insult anyone, just trying to understand. I feel ike this web site is very healing to those who have been hurt by the Way International. Thanks for having this web site and for all that you contribute. It has truly helped me.
Welcome, happyheart.
It's up to you to decide your own opinion (Gee, already with the non-twi stuff! :) )
but it often seems that-when someone posts about something someone bad in twi did something,
someone else IMMEDIATELY comes along to derail the thread completely, or to try to
bury the information in a flurry of posts, generally claiming the person's post didn't reflect
reality. They rarely come right out and honestly say "I think you're lying", but the intent
is the same, just phrased with prettier words. Then they can honestly say they never called
the person a liar, although the words they used said they thought the person wasn't telling the
truth. (In effect, they called them a liar, but didn't use the WORD "liar" to do so.)
Some people (the ones who are believed to do that) will be quick to say that they're trying to
support "the truth" (whatever that means to them), and that they are trying to uphold some
noble standard, and are immediately set upon whenever they speak, or when they recount
some pleasant memory.
Which is true?
Are they both wrong?
Well, you should read things and decide for yourself.
(I say the first paragraph is correct, but others would not.)
And thanks rascal, I believe many got it in the first post, but i don't know how many.
Even if things get off topic, the first post still remains.
I was wondering if anyone here has considered who it was that placed them in the bondage of this particular religion and who it was that also delivered them from it? I hear alot of hurt and pain concerning having been in this religion but I hear very little comments on who it is that placed them in it or who it was that delivered them from it.
I'd like you all to considered that it is God who does all things. I'm wondering if you have considered that you were exactly where God wanted you, both before during and after.
Surely none thinks that anyone or anything stands in defiance of God. There isn't a single church that stands on any corner in America in defiance of God. What I mean is, none are stronger than God, and God is not weak to do anything about defiance of his will. Keeping that in mind, have you all considered why you were placed in this particular religion and then also delivered from it? And who it is that did both those things?
Certainly you all know that Israel was placed, sent even, to Egpyt and then delivered from it.
By the way this is my first post, and I am not a "twi" member. However, there is nothing that has happened to you all that is not common to all mankind. So though I can't speak to the internal workings of the 'TWI', I can speak to methods and lessons and especially the author of the whole process. This thing you all are going through is common to all religions of the world. It happens in them all from the greatest to the smallest.
Thanks for your time, and I will be looking forward to conversing with you all.
I was wondering if anyone here has considered who it was that placed them in the bondage of this particular religion and who it was that also delivered them from it? I hear alot of hurt and pain concerning having been in this religion but I hear very little comments on who it is that placed them in it or who it was that delivered them from it.
I'd like you all to considered that it is God who does all things. I'm wondering if you have considered that you were exactly where God wanted you, both before during and after.
Surely none thinks that anyone or anything stands in defiance of God. There isn't a single church that stands on any corner in America in defiance of God. What I mean is, none are stronger than God, and God is not weak to do anything about defiance of his will. Keeping that in mind, have you all considered why you were placed in this particular religion and then also delivered from it? And who it is that did both those things?
Certainly you all know that Israel was placed, sent even, to Egpyt and then delivered from it.
By the way this is my first post, and I am not a "twi" member. However, there is nothing that has happened to you all that is not common to all mankind. So though I can't speak to the internal workings of the 'TWI', I can speak to methods and lessons and especially the author of the whole process. This thing you all are going through is common to all religions of the world. It happens in them all from the greatest to the smallest.
Thanks for your time, and I will be looking forward to conversing with you all.
welcome to GS.
let's expound on your line of reasoning, shall we?
God puts a woman in a marriage and she is beaten by her husband and loses the child she's carrying. it's God's will because she was supposed to learn something.
a married couple places their young son in the care of someone in their fellowship who's been recommended by their leadership. their young son is sodomized. it was God's will that they learn somthing from it.
a preacher puts a drug into a young woman's drink and rapes her. it was God's will so she could learn something from it.
if that's your God, keep him to yourself. I'm sure you mean well, but please don't assume that we're all christian, believe in God, or don't realize the world is f-ed up.
I'd like you all to considered that it is God who does all things. I'm wondering if you have considered that you were exactly where God wanted you, both before during and after.
Keeping that in mind, have you all considered why you were placed in this particular religion and then also delivered from it? And who it is that did both those things?
Hi cattcar9 ... glad to have you post ...
Do you consider all things that everyone goes through to be of God, since his is not weak to do anything about defiance of his will? How could you determine that TWI was God's will, unless you believed that?
I was wondering if anyone here has considered who it was that placed them in the bondage of this particular religion and who it was that also delivered them from it? I hear alot of hurt and pain concerning having been in this religion but I hear very little comments on who it is that placed them in it or who it was that delivered them from it.
I'd like you all to considered that it is God who does all things. I'm wondering if you have considered that you were exactly where God wanted you, both before during and after.
Surely none thinks that anyone or anything stands in defiance of God. There isn't a single church that stands on any corner in America in defiance of God. What I mean is, none are stronger than God, and God is not weak to do anything about defiance of his will. Keeping that in mind, have you all considered why you were placed in this particular religion and then also delivered from it? And who it is that did both those things?
Certainly you all know that Israel was placed, sent even, to Egpyt and then delivered from it.
By the way this is my first post, and I am not a "twi" member. However, there is nothing that has happened to you all that is not common to all mankind. So though I can't speak to the internal workings of the 'TWI', I can speak to methods and lessons and especially the author of the whole process. This thing you all are going through is common to all religions of the world. It happens in them all from the greatest to the smallest.
Thanks for your time, and I will be looking forward to conversing with you all.
Well, the fact that people go around breaking the Ten Commandments all the time leads me to think it's common place for folks to stand in defiance of God – which should also be obvious by reading Romans 1…And think about I Timothy 2:4 which says it's God's will for all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. We know that not all men are saved.
Maybe there's some confusion over God's sovereign will and His moral will. God's sovereign will encompasses all the details of how everything is going to work out – as it says in Ephesians 1:11, God works out everything according to the counsel of His own will. His sovereign will - that's God's ultimate plan – so much of the details are known only to Him. But His moral will – He has made known to us – i.e. the 10 Commandments as well as other Scripture that place moral demands on us. His sovereign will – how He works out everything to accomplish His purposes CANNOT be thwarted! But His moral will can be disobeyed.
Some folks don't think that highly of God's sovereignty – thinking He would be challenged by the freewill decisions of His creatures – but that portrays Him as a less-than-omnipotent being. IMHO, it truly glorifies God's sovereignty, wisdom and foreknowledge – in that He still accomplishes His purposes unhindered by the freewill decisions of His creatures. For as it says in Romans 8:28 God causes all things to work together for good. It doesn't just say God causes all things. That would make Him the author of evil. Like Joseph expressed to his brothers in Genesis 50:20 – their plans meant to do evil – but God overruled their plans for good.
Many times I have seen God work in really horrible situations to bring things around to a positive conclusion....Did he cause the horrible situation to begin with?? I don`t think so.
Did he cause us to be decieved? Did he cause us to be used? Did he cause the destruction of lives, the dissolusion of familuies??? If that is true...what the heck did the people that died learn???? I DO however firmly believe that he was there when we looked up to help us pick up the pieces and put them back together again.
Sure, hopefully we are stronger, smarter, more vigilant for our experiences...but I`d sure be ....ed if I found out that God *caused* them to begin with.
First order is always on the house. I'll be back as soon as I get these goodies down to the booths in the Doctrinal section.
Just real quick, cause I don't want the ice cream to melt....
Cattcar, good questions and I kind of see where you're coming from. When I left TWI a lot of well meaning people would tell me, "you're right where you're supposed to be," and I thought "WTF?? I'm supposed to be hurt, depressed, suicidal, divorced, childless and alone? What the he11 kind of god is that?!?!"
Furthermore, not having been in TWI, as you said, you could be missing some critical information regarding the teachings that were ingrained into our psyche - one that comes to mind is that God is good always and nothing bad ever comes from God - if something bad happens(ed) in our lives it was because we screwed up somewhere and God could not protect us.
Also, the majority of the folks here are not here to place blame on anyone - we sometimes wonder how the heck we ended up where we did for so long, and we may talk about how we got involved with TWI and how we got out, but not with a view toward blame.
I think, too, we're all too aware of the fact that there are way too many organizations out there just as, if not more destructive than TWI.
We can certainly learn from a bad experience, but I don't necessarily think that means we were supposed to have that bad experience.
Also... just in case you're not aware, this is not a Christian site even though we all were involved with this wanna be "Christian" group at one time. Some of us have moved onto other things or nothing at all. :)
I was wondering if anyone here has considered who it was that placed them in the bondage of this particular religion and who it was that also delivered them from it? I hear alot of hurt and pain concerning having been in this religion but I hear very little comments on who it is that placed them in it or who it was that delivered them from it.
I'd like you all to considered that it is God who does all things. I'm wondering if you have considered that you were exactly where God wanted you, both before during and after.
Yes, I very briefly considered that perhaps God had put me in TWI for a purpose.
I quickly dismissed that concept.
I think what you are referring to is something that is often called "kismet" or "fate".(Que sera, sera)
I have a hard time bringing myself to believe that God INTENDED for me to devote a sizable portion of my adult life to working for the benefit of a cult.
Surely none thinks that anyone or anything stands in defiance of God. There isn't a single church that stands on any corner in America in defiance of God. What I mean is, none are stronger than God, and God is not weak to do anything about defiance of his will. Keeping that in mind, have you all considered why you were placed in this particular religion "and then also delivered from it? And who it is that did both those things?
Although I believe that God can deliver from horrible situations, I don't believe He puts us in those situations just to prove He can deliver us.
Certainly you all know that Israel was placed, sent even, to Egpyt and then delivered from it.
I don't think it is realistic to compare ourselves to Israel or something of Biblical proportions.
We were a run of the mill cult.
Nothing more, nothing less.
By the way this is my first post, and I am not a "twi" member. However, there is nothing that has happened to you all that is not common to all mankind. So though I can't speak to the internal workings of the 'TWI', I can speak to methods and lessons and especially the author of the whole process. This thing you all are going through is common to all religions of the world. It happens in them all from the greatest to the smallest.
I'm afraid I must disagree with you on this point.
Part of my time in TWI was spent living in a commune for 3 years where we were sleep deprived, underfed, deprived of our privacy, forbidden to complain, question or even privately consider that our lifestyle might be un-Biblical.
We were programmed to believe that if we left the cult, terrible things would befall us and our loved ones.
Some of those things might be applicable to mankind in general but I would not say they are "COMMON to all religions of the World" or that "it happens in them all."
Thanks for your time, and I will be looking forward to conversing with you all.
Hi, cattcar9
Welcome to GSC.
I have bolded my responses to set them apart from your words.
Much of what happened to us is not the result of what we believed about various Biblical doctrines such as"the Trinity" or "how many were crucified with Christ?" or "what happened in the Garden of Eden?"?"
No, much of what affected us is a result of a particular lifestyle that permeated our thinking.
Restrictions on independent thought played a large role in our outcomes.
This is why it is so difficult to try to explain to an "outsider"(no disrespect intended) how our involement impacted our lives and thinking.
And I'll add this which i posted on another board. With some editing.
It's not surprising to me to see light and dark and all the colors in between within one person. Not that I've seen them all in any one particular person, or even myself, which I still explore.
It is the one and selfsame spirit, light or dark, or loud to a whisper, it the same spirit. There is only one spirit. Call it soul or karma or chakras(which are 7 but 1)whatever pleases in order to get the bigger picture.
One thing that stands out the most here this day is that of "projection". Projecting one's self onto another. Or in other words seeing what we think is happening in another when it happens or happened in you as well. And interpreting it as the actual now that is occurring.
It's one hell of a bastard to watch within ourselves and to keep CONTROL of our minds, in order to let things be made known unto us from within and from within another.
We are all one. There is no other.
There is no demon that you have that I don't.
There is no angel that you have that I don't.
We are gods on the edge of sanity and insanity.
Yes I have used other people's words to convey or get across ideas which are formulated by words. The words escape me at times, though the idea is there and real enough.
I am not an eloquent speaker, though at times rivers of living water do flow out of my mouth, as it does for everyone. Even if they don't recognize it, some do.
Here is a great list of quotes from people all over the world that have made them public. They are not there for an arguement or for reasoning through, but for reflection. Those I get help me, others I don't get, so I pass them by. and perhaps later I will see what was said. Even if that is not where I'm at.
quotes.zaadz.com/
If one has left their own mountain, their own doctrine, their self. Other mountains can be seen from the 'air'. And as always, we can land on any mountain we choose. They all are us. and we are his and his is ours. and when flying so high, do not let another who is also flying bring you down. But finding a way and ways to synchronize a flight together with others is the heart of that mounts with wings as eagles.
Soaring in the heavens, not to be taken out by landing in hell either. Cause it happens. It has to. To take the flight further. And the higher into Heaven, the deeper into Hell.
let's expound on your line of reasoning, shall we?
God puts a woman in a marriage and she is beaten by her husband and loses the child she's carrying. it's God's will because she was supposed to learn something.
a married couple places their young son in the care of someone in their fellowship who's been recommended by their leadership. their young son is sodomized. it was God's will that they learn somthing from it.
a preacher puts a drug into a young woman's drink and rapes her. it was God's will so she could learn something from it.
if that's your God, keep him to yourself. I'm sure you mean well, but please don't assume that we're all christian, believe in God, or don't realize the world is f-ed up.
Hello potato,
Although you say "welcome" in the beginning of this you end with "keep my god to myself". I can see clearly your anger at my suggestion to take a look at your experience from a different perspective. I can also see clearly that you're not receptive to my (how did you call it...oh yeah) "line of reasoning" so you won't think me rude then to not continue this subject with you. Although you may continue to read mine and others responses throughout this thread I will not be responding to you if you decide to join in because you spoke your mind and your disapproval of my questions is crystal clear. I also do not feel welcomed by you, instead I feel like a target for your anger and hate, even though you don't know me. Having said that, I will respect your request and keep my god to myself concerning you. Have a great day.
Do you consider all things that everyone goes through to be of God, since his is not weak to do anything about defiance of his will? How could you determine that TWI was God's will, unless you believed that?
Hello Rhino,
Thanks for the warm welcome. I believe God does all things. I believe he sets up kings and takes them down, I believe he creates vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor and that each are for the purposes of Gods will. I believe what is written by the men who knew God in their day, and spoke with him in their day, and was guided by him in their day.
It was God who raised up Pharoah for Gods very will and purpose. It was God who harded Pharoah mind so that he would not let his people go no matter what Moses said or did. Why? For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
I know that you all have been through an harrowing experience. My original questions was to cause you to consider that the experience and the delivering from it (for who ever needed to be delivered from a great and wonderful thing?) was so that you might know that it is HE who loved you and brought you to it and through it that your eyes might behold him, and your witness of His works would declare his name and might thoughout all the earth.
It has been my expereince that some people will love God as long as all that they recieve of him is his good will and that they are his chosen vessels of honor. Those people who believe that way will turn back from him when they are first introduced to the reality that He also creates vipers, and sends them among the people to bite them that they might die (as in Moses time in the wilderness) unless they look upon that very viper as having come from God (as in the viper constructed and lifted up on the pole by Moses).
While all people will sign up for the vessel of honor and a life of peace and all good things from God and believe this is of God those same people beleive they recieve no ill from God, yet Job knew and said to his wife after that all his chldren were dead, all his cattle were gone, all his money gone, and sore and boils upon his skin.. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
My question to you is will I be hated here or not accepted here if I can see the GLORY of GOD in your delieverance from the vipers that He himself sent among you where you were to bite you? Because what I hear is that you all have left and escaped but you don't seem joyful of that, and I don't hear priase to God who delivered you from the bondage he first placed you in. I hear now that you're free, anger at that viper that bit you. Now having gone through this myself, I know how natural and normal it is to feel that way at first, however, this does not last forever, just long enough for us to be corrected by God as to WHO it is that does all thing and to whom the glory of it belongs.
I know you all know the example of the 10 lepers that Christ came upon and healed. Every
one of those 10 he healed yet only ONE came back and thanked him and gave him glory!
Some of the testimony I hear here is how some here think it is by their own wisdom they
escaped or left. My questions were to bring some things to your mind that you might consider who it was that delivered you from the bondage you were initally placed in.
I'm not trying to convince you or prove to you my beliefs, I am merely giving you something to consider in case you have not considered it, and forgive me if I have missed it but from the many posts I have read here (and truly I have not read them all) I do not see glory to God in the deliverance from the bondage that occured in this religion. Instead what I have read is how glad you all are that you finally wised up and got up the courage to leave a religion you picked for yourself.
In following men or looking to men to find God you have learned a valuable lesson, which brings you closer to God if you are able to see that very lesson. Some will and some won't. Although the intent in your minds might have been to learn of God and the bible and be saved and live right and find God, God's intent was to take those thoughts and show you himself in your tribulations and trials. Although we think we have finally decided to look for God or live right or get saved....It is God to drew you near to the Son and caused you to want to begin this search. For none can come to the Son EXCEPT the FATHER DRAW him.
So I will ask, how many of you can see Him in this? If you can't that's ok, He will continue to draw you and send you searching and place you in various situations and continue to reveal himself to you until you can see it was He alone that does all things and none can stay his hand nor deliver themselves nor find him of their own apart from him.
Love to you all, and prayers to the healing of your anger and pains. And Rhino, I started this to just respond to you but as you can see it is really not a personal message alone it's to us all. If some things don't pertain to any of your sistuations then you can cast that aside and take what you can from what I wrote.
Well, the fact that people go around breaking the Ten Commandments all the time leads me to think it's common place for folks to stand in defiance of God – which should also be obvious by reading Romans 1…And think about I Timothy 2:4 which says it's God's will for all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. We know that not all men are saved.
Maybe there's some confusion over God's sovereign will and His moral will. God's sovereign will encompasses all the details of how everything is going to work out – as it says in Ephesians 1:11, God works out everything according to the counsel of His own will. His sovereign will - that's God's ultimate plan – so much of the details are known only to Him. But His moral will – He has made known to us – i.e. the 10 Commandments as well as other Scripture that place moral demands on us. His sovereign will – how He works out everything to accomplish His purposes CANNOT be thwarted! But His moral will can be disobeyed.
Some folks don't think that highly of God's sovereignty – thinking He would be challenged by the freewill decisions of His creatures – but that portrays Him as a less-than-omnipotent being. IMHO, it truly glorifies God's sovereignty, wisdom and foreknowledge – in that He still accomplishes His purposes unhindered by the freewill decisions of His creatures. For as it says in Romans 8:28 God causes all things to work together for good. It doesn't just say God causes all things. That would make Him the author of evil. Like Joseph expressed to his brothers in Genesis 50:20 – their plans meant to do evil – but God overruled their plans for good.
Hello T-bone,
I'd like to address your comment about how people go around breaking the ten commandments therefore is show some sort or level of defiance against God's will if you will bare with me a moment.
No one can keep the ten commandments or any of the commandments of thier own will for any length of time. Many many have tried and have been brought to tears because they could not. You say the inablilty to keep them is in the context of defiance. To defiy someone is to not want to do it to begin with. So if someone doesn't want to keep them they are not in defiance of that. Now if someone wants with all their hearts to keep them and can't they still aren't in defiance because they truly WANT to keep them.
We were NEVER going to keep them ever of our own. It's not a defiance against God's will. His will shows us we can NEVER keep them apart from Him. The first covenant waxs old and is passing away the second is this...
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. :)
This is again quoted in Hebrews.
The very first commandment, law, is how we shall have no other gods before God. But we can't do that or keep that of our own. Until the day the Lord writes that law commandment in your heart you will NEVER be able to keep it no matter how much you desire to. But the day he does write it there by His Spirit you will NEVER be able to break it. It is true with all of the laws and commandments, they are COMMANDMENTS. Anything that God Commands and then preforms cannot be broken by men. God himself does create, write in the heart, a vessel of honor and then can take that vessel and break it, and create a vessel of dishonor, and then break that vessel and create a vessel of honor again.
If we can neither keep the laws with out the working of the Spirit and the writing of them in our hearts, then we can neither take credit or blame for doing or not doing. Again the glory goes back to the Father who's glory it is and his will and for his purposes. Jesus was such a man who was the will of the new covenant. He had the laws and commands written in him and he could not sin. He could do no thing of his own, and he knew it and confessed it. He spoke that he did whatsoever he heard and saw of his father. And his father was he who created him (wrote in his heart all his will) and also gave Jesus the eyes to see it and recognize it and give ALL THE GLORY to the father even going to far as to say he could do nothing of his own and that all things were done of his father in him.
But today in another thread I read how some of you believe your faith or your words have created signs or wonders around you. Even our faith is given us, it does not come from us, it is a gift from God to know God. We don't believe because we want to believe we believe because God causes us to believe (draws us to the Son and writes it in us). There was a man who expressed that very thing in the new testament, he said to Christ...i believe, Lord HELP my unbelief. He recognized his own will and desire to believe and confessed that he did infact beleive, and in the same breath knew he did not and could not except Christ give him his belief. And if Christ give you your belief and strenghten it no man or doubt of your own will take it from you.
If you could consider the truth of the new covenant that the Lord speaks of to the prophets that I quoted in this writing it might bring you some peace knowing you can do nothing apart from God and you are his workmanship and any man you judges you as to the right or wrong of your actions only judges another mans servant, namely God's servant the Christ.
I hope my writing brings some peace or understanding but if it does not, that's ok, we can only see and hear and understand what God wills us to at any particular time and I have no stake in the matter as to who will or won't, it doesn't really matter to me personally, because I know God does all things!
Though I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss potato and the others. You really are welcomed here, even by those who disagree with you wholeheartedly. Your Old Testament view of God's Will will certainly grate on some. (By your own reasoning, though, you should welcome potato, since God must have put him here for you to learn something! ;))
I agree with you that God doesn't get enough glory for getting people out of their TWI experience; but, then again, many have quit believing in a biblical God -- or any god at all, for that matter. Maybe you can bring more light here. But don't be surprised if not everyone wants to hear you.
First order is always on the house. I'll be back as soon as I get these goodies down to the booths in the Doctrinal section.
Just real quick, cause I don't want the ice cream to melt....
Cattcar, good questions and I kind of see where you're coming from. When I left TWI a lot of well meaning people would tell me, "you're right where you're supposed to be," and I thought "WTF?? I'm supposed to be hurt, depressed, suicidal, divorced, childless and alone? What the he11 kind of god is that?!?!"
Furthermore, not having been in TWI, as you said, you could be missing some critical information regarding the teachings that were ingrained into our psyche - one that comes to mind is that God is good always and nothing bad ever comes from God - if something bad happens(ed) in our lives it was because we screwed up somewhere and God could not protect us.
Also, the majority of the folks here are not here to place blame on anyone - we sometimes wonder how the heck we ended up where we did for so long, and we may talk about how we got involved with TWI and how we got out, but not with a view toward blame.
I think, too, we're all too aware of the fact that there are way too many organizations out there just as, if not more destructive than TWI.
We can certainly learn from a bad experience, but I don't necessarily think that means we were supposed to have that bad experience.
Also... just in case you're not aware, this is not a Christian site even though we all were involved with this wanna be "Christian" group at one time. Some of us have moved onto other things or nothing at all. :)
Hello Belle,
What a wonderfully kind welcome! Belle you said ...
Cattcar, good questions and I kind of see where you're coming from. When I left TWI a lot of well meaning people would tell me, "you're right where you're supposed to be," and I thought "WTF?? I'm supposed to be hurt, depressed, suicidal, divorced, childless and alone? What the he11 kind of god is that?!?!"
Answer: the kind of God Job knew, and paul knew, and ezekiel knew, ect...
I can appreicate your resistant to actually being the purpose of God to "have" the bad experience. I understand you saying how you could learn from it but your not to sure how it was "caused" by God. Kinda like I guess people say, well the bad came from elsewhere but God used it for good. I think some one here even said that although I don't recall the name. I'd just like you to CONSIDER not agree with or disagree with but consider this...
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I'd like to ask does this have to be a "christian" site for me to speak of God here? I mean if I read betweens the lines it sounds like to me (and I could hear this wrong) you don't want me to focus on God and how this all relates to him. Or maybe it's "I've had enough of god for a while" or something to that effect. Or maybe you think I have thoughts that people want to hear or not hear christain things here. I'm not sure what you mean by this isn't a christain site, do you want me to be quiet because I sound christian? Acutally I don't even know what christain sounds like really.
I'm not here trying to indoctrinate anyone or get you to go to a church or place do's an don't upon anyone or make judgments about if your right or wrong. I'm relaying experienced and wisdoms that came from them and from who the wisdom came. I see alot of pain and hurt and anger and feelings of betrayal here and I can idenify with all that and some and my words are for encouragement and comfort and considerations in the ways of a peaceful mind. But if what I say is unwelcome I can move on with no hard feelings just say the word and I'll be moving on. But if I stay I'd like some sense of respectful conversations and by respectful I mean that it is acknowledged what my aforementioned intent is and nothing else, no labels, christain or otherwise. Since you don't know of me let me give you some things about me. I don't make assumptions like the first person who responsed to me said, I don't make judgments like you are used to in the religious world, I don't have intents other than to write whatever is given me to write at the moment, I don't even know how what I write is used, accpeted, or otherwise and that is PERFECTLY fine with me.
Having said that, if it becomes apparent that what I say is burdesome or offensive to the person, I will politely not continue the conversation. I just happen to know that this world is not some random mess that God comes behind with a mop to clean up once it's all gone so very wrong. I believe and know God created the lemon that lemonaid is made from. I also know if what I say is offensive I can keep my faith and beliefs to myself happily.
I only began to write here because of the thread where someone asked what do they other people think of us, do they think were are (fill in the blank) YOu all have gone through what I and others have gone through, the exact same thing, it's common among ALL religions. One doesn't need to be worse than the other. All men go through feelngs of betrayal and anger and disilussionment, and fearfulness to leave, And what they do after is also the same, some search for a new church to replace the old, some look to God alone, and some turn away from anything that even sounds religious. It's all common all over the world in all faiths. Though what else is commone is most say ...to a precieved outsider (not a member of their particular religion or church) you just can't understand the depth of this thing and even if they don't say it they think it....because THAT TOOO is common among all religions.
Thanks so much for allowing me in your group for the brief time I was here!
Though I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss potato and the others. You really are welcomed here, even by those who disagree with you wholeheartedly. Your Old Testament view of God's Will will certainly grate on some. (By your own reasoning, though, you should welcome potato, since God must have put him here for you to learn something! ;))
I agree with you that God doesn't get enough glory for getting people out of their TWI experience; but, then again, many have quit believing in a biblical God -- or any god at all, for that matter. Maybe you can bring more light here. But don't be surprised if not everyone wants to hear you.
George
Hi George,
Toche! That's exactly how I veiw those who speak to me, except I don't comtemplate who is it that is the giver or the reciever for the learning, all recieve and all give. I'm not at all offended if many have quit believing in a biblical God. And to those who express that to me I will respect that and not have a conversation with them concerning that as I believe I have already done in one occasion. And I am certainly never surprised if not everyone wants to hear what I say, I 'm not surprised or offended. We are all adults here and we glean from these posts and take what we will and leave the rest and not all people take the same things and leave the same things.
Thanks for your comments, your honest heart is very refreshing. And I include all people in that who speak their heart!!! No matter where their thoughts lay on the subject.
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happyheart
Hi Everyone,
I am new here and I wanted to thank you all for sharing. Potato, you seem to be very intelligent like you belong to Menza or something. I really enjoy your posts. There is one thing I don't understand though. Is White Dove a representitive for the way International? What about Bumpy and Pond? Do they still fellowship with the way? Potato, is that why you respond to them so much? Just wondering. Don't want to insult anyone, just trying to understand. I feel ike this web site is very healing to those who have been hurt by the Way International. Thanks for having this web site and for all that you contribute. It has truly helped me.
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potato
hi happyheart, welcome!
thanks for the compliments
I can't speak for what WD, pond and bumpy are up to... I respond to WD for probably the same reasons others here do when it'd be easier to ignore him, and that is because I hate bullies. I had enough when I was in twi and I just want people to let other people take their own healing road and lend a helping hand on the way... now bumpy is one I don't understand for the most part although once in a while he'll say something intelligent so I've decided to take him with a grain of salt as long as he contains his mean streak.
you'll find there's some disagreement here (which to me is great, since we couldn't do that in twi!) and lots of stories and opinions to read.
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WordWolf
Welcome, happyheart.
It's up to you to decide your own opinion (Gee, already with the non-twi stuff! :) )
but it often seems that-when someone posts about something someone bad in twi did something,
someone else IMMEDIATELY comes along to derail the thread completely, or to try to
bury the information in a flurry of posts, generally claiming the person's post didn't reflect
reality. They rarely come right out and honestly say "I think you're lying", but the intent
is the same, just phrased with prettier words. Then they can honestly say they never called
the person a liar, although the words they used said they thought the person wasn't telling the
truth. (In effect, they called them a liar, but didn't use the WORD "liar" to do so.)
Some people (the ones who are believed to do that) will be quick to say that they're trying to
support "the truth" (whatever that means to them), and that they are trying to uphold some
noble standard, and are immediately set upon whenever they speak, or when they recount
some pleasant memory.
Which is true?
Are they both wrong?
Well, you should read things and decide for yourself.
(I say the first paragraph is correct, but others would not.)
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happyheart
Thanks Word Wolf, sounds good.
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cattcar9
I was wondering if anyone here has considered who it was that placed them in the bondage of this particular religion and who it was that also delivered them from it? I hear alot of hurt and pain concerning having been in this religion but I hear very little comments on who it is that placed them in it or who it was that delivered them from it.
I'd like you all to considered that it is God who does all things. I'm wondering if you have considered that you were exactly where God wanted you, both before during and after.
Surely none thinks that anyone or anything stands in defiance of God. There isn't a single church that stands on any corner in America in defiance of God. What I mean is, none are stronger than God, and God is not weak to do anything about defiance of his will. Keeping that in mind, have you all considered why you were placed in this particular religion and then also delivered from it? And who it is that did both those things?
Certainly you all know that Israel was placed, sent even, to Egpyt and then delivered from it.
By the way this is my first post, and I am not a "twi" member. However, there is nothing that has happened to you all that is not common to all mankind. So though I can't speak to the internal workings of the 'TWI', I can speak to methods and lessons and especially the author of the whole process. This thing you all are going through is common to all religions of the world. It happens in them all from the greatest to the smallest.
Thanks for your time, and I will be looking forward to conversing with you all.
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potato
welcome to GS.
let's expound on your line of reasoning, shall we?
God puts a woman in a marriage and she is beaten by her husband and loses the child she's carrying. it's God's will because she was supposed to learn something.
a married couple places their young son in the care of someone in their fellowship who's been recommended by their leadership. their young son is sodomized. it was God's will that they learn somthing from it.
a preacher puts a drug into a young woman's drink and rapes her. it was God's will so she could learn something from it.
if that's your God, keep him to yourself. I'm sure you mean well, but please don't assume that we're all christian, believe in God, or don't realize the world is f-ed up.
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rhino
Hi cattcar9 ... glad to have you post ...
Do you consider all things that everyone goes through to be of God, since his is not weak to do anything about defiance of his will? How could you determine that TWI was God's will, unless you believed that?
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T-Bone
Well, the fact that people go around breaking the Ten Commandments all the time leads me to think it's common place for folks to stand in defiance of God – which should also be obvious by reading Romans 1…And think about I Timothy 2:4 which says it's God's will for all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. We know that not all men are saved.
Maybe there's some confusion over God's sovereign will and His moral will. God's sovereign will encompasses all the details of how everything is going to work out – as it says in Ephesians 1:11, God works out everything according to the counsel of His own will. His sovereign will - that's God's ultimate plan – so much of the details are known only to Him. But His moral will – He has made known to us – i.e. the 10 Commandments as well as other Scripture that place moral demands on us. His sovereign will – how He works out everything to accomplish His purposes CANNOT be thwarted! But His moral will can be disobeyed.
Some folks don't think that highly of God's sovereignty – thinking He would be challenged by the freewill decisions of His creatures – but that portrays Him as a less-than-omnipotent being. IMHO, it truly glorifies God's sovereignty, wisdom and foreknowledge – in that He still accomplishes His purposes unhindered by the freewill decisions of His creatures. For as it says in Romans 8:28 God causes all things to work together for good. It doesn't just say God causes all things. That would make Him the author of evil. Like Joseph expressed to his brothers in Genesis 50:20 – their plans meant to do evil – but God overruled their plans for good.
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rascal
That is a VERY interesting point TBone.
Many times I have seen God work in really horrible situations to bring things around to a positive conclusion....Did he cause the horrible situation to begin with?? I don`t think so.
Did he cause us to be decieved? Did he cause us to be used? Did he cause the destruction of lives, the dissolusion of familuies??? If that is true...what the heck did the people that died learn???? I DO however firmly believe that he was there when we looked up to help us pick up the pieces and put them back together again.
Sure, hopefully we are stronger, smarter, more vigilant for our experiences...but I`d sure be ....ed if I found out that God *caused* them to begin with.
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Belle
Wow, lots of new people at the booths lately.
Welcome!!
Welcome HappyHeart! Welcome Cattcar!
First order is always on the house. I'll be back as soon as I get these goodies down to the booths in the Doctrinal section.
Just real quick, cause I don't want the ice cream to melt....
Cattcar, good questions and I kind of see where you're coming from. When I left TWI a lot of well meaning people would tell me, "you're right where you're supposed to be," and I thought "WTF?? I'm supposed to be hurt, depressed, suicidal, divorced, childless and alone? What the he11 kind of god is that?!?!"
Furthermore, not having been in TWI, as you said, you could be missing some critical information regarding the teachings that were ingrained into our psyche - one that comes to mind is that God is good always and nothing bad ever comes from God - if something bad happens(ed) in our lives it was because we screwed up somewhere and God could not protect us.
Also, the majority of the folks here are not here to place blame on anyone - we sometimes wonder how the heck we ended up where we did for so long, and we may talk about how we got involved with TWI and how we got out, but not with a view toward blame.
I think, too, we're all too aware of the fact that there are way too many organizations out there just as, if not more destructive than TWI.
We can certainly learn from a bad experience, but I don't necessarily think that means we were supposed to have that bad experience.
Also... just in case you're not aware, this is not a Christian site even though we all were involved with this wanna be "Christian" group at one time. Some of us have moved onto other things or nothing at all. :)
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potato
you're so sweet, Belle. my avatar should be a porcupine :(
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waysider
Hi, cattcar9
Welcome to GSC.
I have bolded my responses to set them apart from your words.
Much of what happened to us is not the result of what we believed about various Biblical doctrines such as"the Trinity" or "how many were crucified with Christ?" or "what happened in the Garden of Eden?"?"
No, much of what affected us is a result of a particular lifestyle that permeated our thinking.
Restrictions on independent thought played a large role in our outcomes.
This is why it is so difficult to try to explain to an "outsider"(no disrespect intended) how our involement impacted our lives and thinking.
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Belle
:P You wouldn't fool us with any porcupine outfit, Potato. We know you're just a Sweet Tater!
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excathedra
this is a very interesting thread
when i left twi, i had no one to talk to. i stumbled upon waydale (thank you god)
waydale closed and pawtucket opened up greasespot for people like me (thank you god)
i have a really hard time with questions about where god led me or put me or allowed me to be (no thank you god ;))
because i don't think he would ever ever hurt me on purpose
so what i'm thinking is..... crazy as it may sound).....
in all my searching and misery, i got to know him better, because he had to keep "talking" to me
i'm sure this makes no sense but what else is new ?
--
like he had to keep telling me he loves me which i do believe so thank you god (christ too)
--
but i did believe in him and christ long before twi
--
but i don't know if i saw his immense love until.... well.... i don't know.... maybe now.....
pps. LG (long gone) was not a cartoon character
god rest his soul
and i miss him so much
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excathedra
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happyheart
Thanks Belle. I've read some of your posts. Well written and well said.
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cman
I'd say that for the most part the experience for me has been one of 'where and who is God'.
Not finding God in the many books that we were to learn and master and take them further.
Not finding God in the disciplining myself to follow the 'leaders'.
Not finding God in any kind of 'like minded' thinking based on the two above.
Not finding God in the many study tools that we used either.
A big what it is NOT, stands out as my twi experience and involvement.
Withour twi, I would not have known that.
Without twi I would not have read as much scripture.
Which borders on whether I really needed to or not.
But I did and thankful that I read it.
Cause these days they come to mind occasionally.
Finding God meant letting go of all these mind matters.
To let go of definitions and another person's idea of God.
To let go of the books and constant barrage of what someone else thinks I should think.
To quit fighting the growing hunger for Truth and let myself go.
Letting myself go after the real questions of God and Jesus Christ.
Certain ones just kept hanging on and would not go away.
What is being born again.
What is eternal life.
Where is God, heaven, hell.
Until this hunger drove me out of twi, knowing that the answers were not there.
I find this place, GSC, the wilderness I called my own in a sense.
And this was the wilderness to search through to find some answers.
And sure enough it was found.
Or rather an adventure in finding and seeing.
Cause of a few words unrelated to my search directly.
Words that mixed with the tongue of the Spirit awakened my Spirit within.
Words from the living spirit in another and in others that were not aware.
Like seed sprouting and becoming a seedling, a sprout.
The sprouts of wings to fly in the air in the spirit.
Doubtful that this was real, and in the wisdom I thought I had.
I tested it, holding on to previous thought like an anchor.
Soon finding that my previous thought had to be released.
in order to soar the heights of heaven and the depths of hell.
Hell which is needed to burn off the self, the ego, the pride,
all those things that are against the very nature of God,
the works of the mind trying to make itself something.
Can still descend into hell and ascend into heaven at His will.
Leaving my will behind and entering the will of God.
Which is in us all and all of us in it.
Casting off the chains of bondage to books and self.
I could then let go and quit fighting the Spirit which had been willing all along.
So the way and it's ways have proven a big 'What it is Not'.
While casting it off, soon freedom became to be realized.
Although in doing so, the door opened to what it IS.
A true freedom beyond what I myself could ask or think,
but according to the will and doings of another, a comforter,
the holy spirit could be seen, by it's will not mine.
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cman
And I'll add this which i posted on another board. With some editing.
It's not surprising to me to see light and dark and all the colors in between within one person. Not that I've seen them all in any one particular person, or even myself, which I still explore.
It is the one and selfsame spirit, light or dark, or loud to a whisper, it the same spirit. There is only one spirit. Call it soul or karma or chakras(which are 7 but 1)whatever pleases in order to get the bigger picture.
One thing that stands out the most here this day is that of "projection". Projecting one's self onto another. Or in other words seeing what we think is happening in another when it happens or happened in you as well. And interpreting it as the actual now that is occurring.
It's one hell of a bastard to watch within ourselves and to keep CONTROL of our minds, in order to let things be made known unto us from within and from within another.
We are all one. There is no other.
There is no demon that you have that I don't.
There is no angel that you have that I don't.
We are gods on the edge of sanity and insanity.
Yes I have used other people's words to convey or get across ideas which are formulated by words. The words escape me at times, though the idea is there and real enough.
I am not an eloquent speaker, though at times rivers of living water do flow out of my mouth, as it does for everyone. Even if they don't recognize it, some do.
Here is a great list of quotes from people all over the world that have made them public. They are not there for an arguement or for reasoning through, but for reflection. Those I get help me, others I don't get, so I pass them by. and perhaps later I will see what was said. Even if that is not where I'm at.
quotes.zaadz.com/
If one has left their own mountain, their own doctrine, their self. Other mountains can be seen from the 'air'. And as always, we can land on any mountain we choose. They all are us. and we are his and his is ours. and when flying so high, do not let another who is also flying bring you down. But finding a way and ways to synchronize a flight together with others is the heart of that mounts with wings as eagles.
Soaring in the heavens, not to be taken out by landing in hell either. Cause it happens. It has to. To take the flight further. And the higher into Heaven, the deeper into Hell.
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cattcar9
Hello potato,
Although you say "welcome" in the beginning of this you end with "keep my god to myself". I can see clearly your anger at my suggestion to take a look at your experience from a different perspective. I can also see clearly that you're not receptive to my (how did you call it...oh yeah) "line of reasoning" so you won't think me rude then to not continue this subject with you. Although you may continue to read mine and others responses throughout this thread I will not be responding to you if you decide to join in because you spoke your mind and your disapproval of my questions is crystal clear. I also do not feel welcomed by you, instead I feel like a target for your anger and hate, even though you don't know me. Having said that, I will respect your request and keep my god to myself concerning you. Have a great day.
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cattcar9
Hello Rhino,
Thanks for the warm welcome. I believe God does all things. I believe he sets up kings and takes them down, I believe he creates vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor and that each are for the purposes of Gods will. I believe what is written by the men who knew God in their day, and spoke with him in their day, and was guided by him in their day.
It was God who raised up Pharoah for Gods very will and purpose. It was God who harded Pharoah mind so that he would not let his people go no matter what Moses said or did. Why? For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
I know that you all have been through an harrowing experience. My original questions was to cause you to consider that the experience and the delivering from it (for who ever needed to be delivered from a great and wonderful thing?) was so that you might know that it is HE who loved you and brought you to it and through it that your eyes might behold him, and your witness of His works would declare his name and might thoughout all the earth.
It has been my expereince that some people will love God as long as all that they recieve of him is his good will and that they are his chosen vessels of honor. Those people who believe that way will turn back from him when they are first introduced to the reality that He also creates vipers, and sends them among the people to bite them that they might die (as in Moses time in the wilderness) unless they look upon that very viper as having come from God (as in the viper constructed and lifted up on the pole by Moses).
While all people will sign up for the vessel of honor and a life of peace and all good things from God and believe this is of God those same people beleive they recieve no ill from God, yet Job knew and said to his wife after that all his chldren were dead, all his cattle were gone, all his money gone, and sore and boils upon his skin.. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
My question to you is will I be hated here or not accepted here if I can see the GLORY of GOD in your delieverance from the vipers that He himself sent among you where you were to bite you? Because what I hear is that you all have left and escaped but you don't seem joyful of that, and I don't hear priase to God who delivered you from the bondage he first placed you in. I hear now that you're free, anger at that viper that bit you. Now having gone through this myself, I know how natural and normal it is to feel that way at first, however, this does not last forever, just long enough for us to be corrected by God as to WHO it is that does all thing and to whom the glory of it belongs.
I know you all know the example of the 10 lepers that Christ came upon and healed. Every
one of those 10 he healed yet only ONE came back and thanked him and gave him glory!
Some of the testimony I hear here is how some here think it is by their own wisdom they
escaped or left. My questions were to bring some things to your mind that you might consider who it was that delivered you from the bondage you were initally placed in.
I'm not trying to convince you or prove to you my beliefs, I am merely giving you something to consider in case you have not considered it, and forgive me if I have missed it but from the many posts I have read here (and truly I have not read them all) I do not see glory to God in the deliverance from the bondage that occured in this religion. Instead what I have read is how glad you all are that you finally wised up and got up the courage to leave a religion you picked for yourself.
In following men or looking to men to find God you have learned a valuable lesson, which brings you closer to God if you are able to see that very lesson. Some will and some won't. Although the intent in your minds might have been to learn of God and the bible and be saved and live right and find God, God's intent was to take those thoughts and show you himself in your tribulations and trials. Although we think we have finally decided to look for God or live right or get saved....It is God to drew you near to the Son and caused you to want to begin this search. For none can come to the Son EXCEPT the FATHER DRAW him.
So I will ask, how many of you can see Him in this? If you can't that's ok, He will continue to draw you and send you searching and place you in various situations and continue to reveal himself to you until you can see it was He alone that does all things and none can stay his hand nor deliver themselves nor find him of their own apart from him.
Love to you all, and prayers to the healing of your anger and pains. And Rhino, I started this to just respond to you but as you can see it is really not a personal message alone it's to us all. If some things don't pertain to any of your sistuations then you can cast that aside and take what you can from what I wrote.
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cattcar9
Hello T-bone,
I'd like to address your comment about how people go around breaking the ten commandments therefore is show some sort or level of defiance against God's will if you will bare with me a moment.
No one can keep the ten commandments or any of the commandments of thier own will for any length of time. Many many have tried and have been brought to tears because they could not. You say the inablilty to keep them is in the context of defiance. To defiy someone is to not want to do it to begin with. So if someone doesn't want to keep them they are not in defiance of that. Now if someone wants with all their hearts to keep them and can't they still aren't in defiance because they truly WANT to keep them.
We were NEVER going to keep them ever of our own. It's not a defiance against God's will. His will shows us we can NEVER keep them apart from Him. The first covenant waxs old and is passing away the second is this...
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. :)
This is again quoted in Hebrews.
The very first commandment, law, is how we shall have no other gods before God. But we can't do that or keep that of our own. Until the day the Lord writes that law commandment in your heart you will NEVER be able to keep it no matter how much you desire to. But the day he does write it there by His Spirit you will NEVER be able to break it. It is true with all of the laws and commandments, they are COMMANDMENTS. Anything that God Commands and then preforms cannot be broken by men. God himself does create, write in the heart, a vessel of honor and then can take that vessel and break it, and create a vessel of dishonor, and then break that vessel and create a vessel of honor again.
If we can neither keep the laws with out the working of the Spirit and the writing of them in our hearts, then we can neither take credit or blame for doing or not doing. Again the glory goes back to the Father who's glory it is and his will and for his purposes. Jesus was such a man who was the will of the new covenant. He had the laws and commands written in him and he could not sin. He could do no thing of his own, and he knew it and confessed it. He spoke that he did whatsoever he heard and saw of his father. And his father was he who created him (wrote in his heart all his will) and also gave Jesus the eyes to see it and recognize it and give ALL THE GLORY to the father even going to far as to say he could do nothing of his own and that all things were done of his father in him.
But today in another thread I read how some of you believe your faith or your words have created signs or wonders around you. Even our faith is given us, it does not come from us, it is a gift from God to know God. We don't believe because we want to believe we believe because God causes us to believe (draws us to the Son and writes it in us). There was a man who expressed that very thing in the new testament, he said to Christ...i believe, Lord HELP my unbelief. He recognized his own will and desire to believe and confessed that he did infact beleive, and in the same breath knew he did not and could not except Christ give him his belief. And if Christ give you your belief and strenghten it no man or doubt of your own will take it from you.
If you could consider the truth of the new covenant that the Lord speaks of to the prophets that I quoted in this writing it might bring you some peace knowing you can do nothing apart from God and you are his workmanship and any man you judges you as to the right or wrong of your actions only judges another mans servant, namely God's servant the Christ.
I hope my writing brings some peace or understanding but if it does not, that's ok, we can only see and hear and understand what God wills us to at any particular time and I have no stake in the matter as to who will or won't, it doesn't really matter to me personally, because I know God does all things!
Peace to you and yours
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GeorgeStGeorge
Interesting points, cattcar.
Though I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss potato and the others. You really are welcomed here, even by those who disagree with you wholeheartedly. Your Old Testament view of God's Will will certainly grate on some. (By your own reasoning, though, you should welcome potato, since God must have put him here for you to learn something! ;))
I agree with you that God doesn't get enough glory for getting people out of their TWI experience; but, then again, many have quit believing in a biblical God -- or any god at all, for that matter. Maybe you can bring more light here. But don't be surprised if not everyone wants to hear you.
George
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cattcar9
Hello Belle,
What a wonderfully kind welcome! Belle you said ...
Cattcar, good questions and I kind of see where you're coming from. When I left TWI a lot of well meaning people would tell me, "you're right where you're supposed to be," and I thought "WTF?? I'm supposed to be hurt, depressed, suicidal, divorced, childless and alone? What the he11 kind of god is that?!?!"
Answer: the kind of God Job knew, and paul knew, and ezekiel knew, ect...
I can appreicate your resistant to actually being the purpose of God to "have" the bad experience. I understand you saying how you could learn from it but your not to sure how it was "caused" by God. Kinda like I guess people say, well the bad came from elsewhere but God used it for good. I think some one here even said that although I don't recall the name. I'd just like you to CONSIDER not agree with or disagree with but consider this...
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I'd like to ask does this have to be a "christian" site for me to speak of God here? I mean if I read betweens the lines it sounds like to me (and I could hear this wrong) you don't want me to focus on God and how this all relates to him. Or maybe it's "I've had enough of god for a while" or something to that effect. Or maybe you think I have thoughts that people want to hear or not hear christain things here. I'm not sure what you mean by this isn't a christain site, do you want me to be quiet because I sound christian? Acutally I don't even know what christain sounds like really.
I'm not here trying to indoctrinate anyone or get you to go to a church or place do's an don't upon anyone or make judgments about if your right or wrong. I'm relaying experienced and wisdoms that came from them and from who the wisdom came. I see alot of pain and hurt and anger and feelings of betrayal here and I can idenify with all that and some and my words are for encouragement and comfort and considerations in the ways of a peaceful mind. But if what I say is unwelcome I can move on with no hard feelings just say the word and I'll be moving on. But if I stay I'd like some sense of respectful conversations and by respectful I mean that it is acknowledged what my aforementioned intent is and nothing else, no labels, christain or otherwise. Since you don't know of me let me give you some things about me. I don't make assumptions like the first person who responsed to me said, I don't make judgments like you are used to in the religious world, I don't have intents other than to write whatever is given me to write at the moment, I don't even know how what I write is used, accpeted, or otherwise and that is PERFECTLY fine with me.
Having said that, if it becomes apparent that what I say is burdesome or offensive to the person, I will politely not continue the conversation. I just happen to know that this world is not some random mess that God comes behind with a mop to clean up once it's all gone so very wrong. I believe and know God created the lemon that lemonaid is made from. I also know if what I say is offensive I can keep my faith and beliefs to myself happily.
I only began to write here because of the thread where someone asked what do they other people think of us, do they think were are (fill in the blank) YOu all have gone through what I and others have gone through, the exact same thing, it's common among ALL religions. One doesn't need to be worse than the other. All men go through feelngs of betrayal and anger and disilussionment, and fearfulness to leave, And what they do after is also the same, some search for a new church to replace the old, some look to God alone, and some turn away from anything that even sounds religious. It's all common all over the world in all faiths. Though what else is commone is most say ...to a precieved outsider (not a member of their particular religion or church) you just can't understand the depth of this thing and even if they don't say it they think it....because THAT TOOO is common among all religions.
Thanks so much for allowing me in your group for the brief time I was here!
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cattcar9
Hi George,
Toche! That's exactly how I veiw those who speak to me, except I don't comtemplate who is it that is the giver or the reciever for the learning, all recieve and all give. I'm not at all offended if many have quit believing in a biblical God. And to those who express that to me I will respect that and not have a conversation with them concerning that as I believe I have already done in one occasion. And I am certainly never surprised if not everyone wants to hear what I say, I 'm not surprised or offended. We are all adults here and we glean from these posts and take what we will and leave the rest and not all people take the same things and leave the same things.
Thanks for your comments, your honest heart is very refreshing. And I include all people in that who speak their heart!!! No matter where their thoughts lay on the subject.
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