Back in my home town there's a small building with a sign outside that says "Knights of Columbus"...every Friday they have a fish fry...I know some of the members. Most of them are a bunch of drunk Irishmen...is this the same organization that you're referring to?
It would certainly be a very twisted bit of irony if it were so because VPW was staunchly ANTI- Catholic.
It's been stated that VP borrowed conspiracy theories and ideas from white supremacy materials and from john birch materials and then allowed people to falsely conclude he got those ideas by revelation.
Beyond that, though, I think the guy was really just a handful of peanuts in the giant candy dish of life.
It would certainly be a very twisted bit of irony if it were so because VPW was staunchly ANTI- Catholic.
It's been stated that VP borrowed conspiracy theories and ideas from white supremacy materials and from john birch materials and then allowed people to falsely conclude he got those ideas by revelation.
Beyond that, though, I think the guy was really just a handful of peanuts in the giant candy dish of life.
I honestly think vpw was too lazy to join any secret society.
He always took shortcuts to get anywhere in his "career".
Organizations have demands on your time-he wanted "no strings" connections that he
could use without giving anything back. (That's how he organized the programs,
in case you didn't notice.) So, getting propaganda from the John Birch Society without
actually joining it was fine for him.
The closest things to a secret society's trapping was that prank "initiation" thing with
the robes and the horseradish.
However, his inner cadre of people "in" on the sex, molestations, rapes, and so on
DID function something like a secret society running twi. It just didn't have the
every Friday they have a fish fry...I know some of the members. Most of them are a bunch of drunk Irishmen...is this the same organization that you're referring to?
Maybe that's the similarity you notice Seth. Would explain the behavior, and the fishy smell. Just take out the "Irish" part. Don't want to start a riot here..
My dad was a Fourth Degree Knight of Columbus. If there was any weird ritualism associated with it, he certainly kept it secret from me. Other than the occasional duty of escorting the Cardinal, it really seemed to be about poker with the guys. I do remember one touching thing, though: at my dad's wake, an honor guard of two Knights stood by his casket, with a guard change every hour. It would have been tough enough for young men to stand for an hour like that; but these were, shall we say, mature gentlemen. I was well beyond my Catholic days by that point, but I was still moved by the honor they paid my dad.
Does this have anything to do with Seth's post? Who knows?
If any other secret society comes to mind please reply.
The Illuminati. Or the Templars. But I'm not sure if that comes from TWI, or simply the cool dreams I've had since watching the latest "National Treasure" movie.
The Knight's of Columbus (of which my husband is a member) and the Mason's do no consider themselves 'secret societies.' A true secret society means you would not know they existed nevertheless how to get in touch with them, period. Both societies are easily found and contacted for membership; one within the Roman Catholic Church, your local cathedral or the Masons and their affiliate orders such as the Order of the Eastern Star can be reached either through a friend or relative of yours that is a member or even through the internet. Both societies and I am speaking of first hand knowledge or with that knowledge want members that will represent the society well and having a good reputation, no crimes or anything offensive in your background is a must. I don't know when that started, but with those I know, those rules are in place.
As for secret, TWI critics tried to guess what was going on during a PFAL session as well since no non paying, non registered people were allowed to attend. Secrecy and occultism is in the eye of the beholder. Many fundamental Christians consider the health and wealth gospel along with speaking things into being part of the New Age movement and as having occult roots.
It would certainly be a very twisted bit of irony if it were so because VPW was staunchly ANTI- Catholic.
It's been stated that VP borrowed conspiracy theories and ideas from white supremacy materials and from john birch materials and then allowed people to falsely conclude he got those ideas by revelation.
Beyond that, though, I think the guy was really just a handful of peanuts in the giant candy dish of life.
I beg to differ on VP being anti-catholic. 95% of ALL madern christianity is catholic. I am suprised at the forgetfulness about everything concerning Martin Luther. He broke from the catholic church aver divorce, but he didn't change much.
Christmas
Easter
Sunday Worship
Eating Unclean Animals
All this is from Rome. If Jesus himself appeared in the flesh and told a christian to keep the Sabbath or don't eat pork there would be the familiar fight. Christians didn't eat pork until around 325AD. They also kept the traditional Sabbath until Emporer Constintine, under the threat death forced christians to do sun worship and called it the new christian sabbath day. Same with christmas and that old tree - which has very specific prohibitions in Jeremiah 10. All this came from what has evolved into the catholic church.
To me, it's very sad that we can read the Bible, and then do what we want and say it's OK because of "traditions of men"
My point is that while he spoke against the catholic church, he maintained much of its teaching and doctrine.
Like Martin Luther, who split from them and forming the protestant (?) denomination, there was/is very little difference in the beliefs and practices. (I can't remember right now specifically, but I think the one of the few things M.L. did away with was indulgences). The things I mentioned previously about food, sunday ect. is straight out of the Roman Catholic religion. It is not Biblical, and you will not find those things being practiced by the first christians in the Bible. It just is not there.
So, while vpw may have spoke strongly against RCC - He continued in and maintained their doctrine.
There is similarities also between the Nunnery/Preisthood with the WOW and Corp sexually.
We all know homosexuality and sex among the priests and nuns is a very real issue in the RCC. There have been thousands of stories since the dark ages of mass baby graves - babies of nuns and priests. And now the thing with priests molesting children. You put people in close quarters together and tell them to remain celibate.
Not gonna happen.
The first commandment given was to be fruitful, and God blessed each and every one of us with the desire and will to obey that commandment.
VP put single people and families together, under one roof to "move the Word" and caused them all to sin by the rampant illicit sex that can't but help to occur when men and women - or men/men - women/women live in such close quarters.
They have sex. With each other. Very few people have enough restraint to not do it, at least once. That's why we all know the absolute HORROR stories about sex in the way.
Just like in the catholic church.
I know many may disagree with me, and that's OK. But there are more similarities in doctrine and practice than differences. Sure he SPOKE against the RCC. But he taught what they teach. Repackaged, for sure, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
My point is that while he spoke against the catholic church, he maintained much of its teaching and doctrine.
Like Martin Luther, who split from them and forming the protestant (?) denomination, there was/is very little difference in the beliefs and practices. (I can't remember right now specifically, but I think the one of the few things M.L. did away with was indulgences). The things I mentioned previously about food, sunday ect. is straight out of the Roman Catholic religion. It is not Biblical, and you will not find those things being practiced by the first christians in the Bible. It just is not there.
So, while vpw may have spoke strongly against RCC - He continued in and maintained their doctrine.
There is similarities also between the Nunnery/Preisthood with the WOW and Corp sexually.
We all know homosexuality and sex among the priests and nuns is a very real issue in the RCC. There have been thousands of stories since the dark ages of mass baby graves - babies of nuns and priests. And now the thing with priests molesting children. You put people in close quarters together and tell them to remain celibate.
Not gonna happen.
The first commandment given was to be fruitful, and God blessed each and every one of us with the desire and will to obey that commandment.
VP put single people and families together, under one roof to "move the Word" and caused them all to sin by the rampant illicit sex that can't but help to occur when men and women - or men/men - women/women live in such close quarters.
They have sex. With each other. Very few people have enough restraint to not do it, at least once. That's why we all know the absolute HORROR stories about sex in the way.
Just like in the catholic church.
I know many may disagree with me, and that's OK. But there are more similarities in doctrine and practice than differences. Sure he SPOKE against the RCC. But he taught what they teach. Repackaged, for sure, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
Rachel
Thanks for your response, Rachel.
That certainly adds a great deal of clarity to the subject.
Rachel said "VP put single people and families together, under one roof to "move the Word" and caused them all to sin by the rampant illicit sex that can't but help to occur when men and women - or men/men - women/women live in such close quarters."
So is that ALL without distinction or all without exeception? Just kidding, just don't go painting everyone with the same wide sex brush you got there, not everyone and certainly not ALL had sex just because they lived together, I am proof of that.
Victor Paul Wierwille went to great lengths to separate himself from the general Christian community, which had separated themselves hundreds of years ago from the Roman Catholic doctrines that came from Rome. How you perceive that VPW continued in the Roman Catholic doctrines escapes me.
There has never been proof of mass baby graves. I know I had heard of it before, especially since TWI and VP whored a book called The Babylonian Mystery Religion which compares the RC church to Pagan (gasp) religion, and mentions mass baby graves, but there has never been archaeological proof for it. I don't doubt that any nuns could have gotten pregnant and disposed of their baby one way or another or that it could have happened to many. But that is just assumptions and it is a grand leap in assumptions to say that and then claim there are mass baby graves. Especially since the author pulled the book and retracted it.
VPW denied the Trinity, a major crux of many mainstream Christian religions and many not so mainstream.
He denied that one could lose their salavation which the RC church maintains. The RC church also believes in different types of sins such as venial and cardinal which is hinged upon the person's motivation and understanding which VP mocked in the PFAL class as being wrong. All sins were sins and it was just called a mising of the mark. Further, VP did away with sin in a believer's life and called it broken fellowship while other Christians call it sin.
He denied that the dead are alive now, which most Christian religions believe that they are alive elsewhere.
He denied giving to charities, all money should go to TWI to help move his version of the Bible.
He did not believe in the Lord's Prayer. Vain repetition.
He did not believe in the Saints, can't prayer to anyone not even Jesus.
He did not believe in the Immaculate Conception which has nothing to do with Jesus but everything to do with his Mother, Mary as it is believed she was born without the stain of original sin so that she would be a worthy vessel to carry the Logos, the Son of the FAther. Reference is made to the fellow in the Old Testament who reached out to touch the ark of God when it look like it was going to fall off the stand it was on and he was struck down dead and how Mary had to be beautified, sanctified and set apart from others to be able to be granted to carry the only begotten Son of God.
VP claimed along with other leaders that the Pope was born of the seed of the serpent.
VP claimed that along with Martindale that all Christian images such as the cross and those statues were like dog whistles that debil spirits could hear and were like lightening rods in attracting them.
VP did not believe in a middle man confession to a priest and did not believe in confessing individual sins (PFAL) he believed in as he said, Confessing the Savior from sins.
VP did not believe in fasting in a type of worship mode or in self sacrifice while the RC church does along with many other Christian religions. VP didn't believe in any type of self sacrifice for himself and the other fasts we were introduced was some new improved quack way to cleanse out your bowels, all fads.
VP taught we were free from the law and that the Ten Commandments were not for us and that the gospels were never addressed to us. The RC church along with many Christian religions do not believe this and the RC church gives emminence to the gospels.
The RC church does believe you will still answer for what you have done here while VP taught that there is no accounting for sins at the Bema. Now some other Christian religions agree with that, but the RC church does not and that is the issue here.
In investigating the RC church and it's hold on people way back when when church and state were never separated over in Euorpe, yes we see some dietary laws instituted through the church, because they WERE the law. Not eating meat on Fridays, I read once was a response to a shortage of meat and to solve that problem people were told to fast. As for not eating unclean animals such as pigs, I do not know if that is true. I know other sources say that pigs were a big part of the medieval diet. http://books.google.com/books?id=MO_Obx4ns...-ARfC0#PPA72,M1
I guess my main purpose in responding to you post is that it has never been my opinion that VPW and TWI has continued in standard Christian practice and doctrine. I do believe and for many good reasons that VPW and LCM and TWI have done everything to distance themselves from just that and do not consider other Christians to be on the same par with them and I think that doctrine has gotten even more judgmental since I left TWI.
VPW was not a wanderer in the many tenets of Christianity but sought to make himself a king with a new religion that just borrowed Christian terminology from a widely accepted religion to make his look more legit. The only true Christianity that could have been found in TWI were the people who were recruited that somewhere in their hearts the love of God truly lived. VP sought to make himself a leader with an army. He did not want a bunch of reclusive people who did nothing but hide behind convent walls who prayed but rather who could go out and further the purposes of TWI and in my opinion, be there to fullfil his own dark purposes. There was nothing haphazard or accidental about anything he did, anything he taught and anything that happened. His ministry was not in response to a society where church ruled everyone aspect of a person's life and the best way a poor person could climb in society was to get a patron to sponsor him in the church. VP's club existed solely through the desires and ego of one man, and that was himself.
It is not the fault of any other religion, government or institution that caused VP to form TWI. There are no excuses for what he did, what he taught and what he taught the inner sanctum of his male leaders to do. Claiming that it was modeled after another corrupted institution does not smooth it over or make it understanble or less devilish. TWI is what it is and all on it's own; a train out of control.
I had never heard a Catholic joke until getting involved with TWI.
That being said, yes, for as much as vee pee and craiggers ridiculed, joked about, despised the Catholic church and for as much hatred as they built toward that particular church - TWI is way more like them than they would ever like to admit.
There were quite a few threads on WayDale about the similarities between the two. I've tried to find the ones here at the cafe (if there were any), but I believe we used the abbreviation RC and that's not enough letters for the search feature to find.
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excathedra
i dont' think there's a connection to "the way" the knights are catholic
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GrouchoMarxJr
Back in my home town there's a small building with a sign outside that says "Knights of Columbus"...every Friday they have a fish fry...I know some of the members. Most of them are a bunch of drunk Irishmen...is this the same organization that you're referring to?
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waysider
Seth
It would certainly be a very twisted bit of irony if it were so because VPW was staunchly ANTI- Catholic.
It's been stated that VP borrowed conspiracy theories and ideas from white supremacy materials and from john birch materials and then allowed people to falsely conclude he got those ideas by revelation.
Beyond that, though, I think the guy was really just a handful of peanuts in the giant candy dish of life.
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WordWolf
I honestly think vpw was too lazy to join any secret society.
He always took shortcuts to get anywhere in his "career".
Organizations have demands on your time-he wanted "no strings" connections that he
could use without giving anything back. (That's how he organized the programs,
in case you didn't notice.) So, getting propaganda from the John Birch Society without
actually joining it was fine for him.
The closest things to a secret society's trapping was that prank "initiation" thing with
the robes and the horseradish.
However, his inner cadre of people "in" on the sex, molestations, rapes, and so on
DID function something like a secret society running twi. It just didn't have the
trappings, the symbolism, of one.
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GarthP2000
Ha ha ha! Right!
I'm sure that MarkO and other Catholics here would get a good laugh out of this idea that the Knights of Columbus was in cahoots with TWI. :lol:
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Ham
Maybe that's the similarity you notice Seth. Would explain the behavior, and the fishy smell. Just take out the "Irish" part. Don't want to start a riot here..
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GeorgeStGeorge
My dad was a Fourth Degree Knight of Columbus. If there was any weird ritualism associated with it, he certainly kept it secret from me. Other than the occasional duty of escorting the Cardinal, it really seemed to be about poker with the guys. I do remember one touching thing, though: at my dad's wake, an honor guard of two Knights stood by his casket, with a guard change every hour. It would have been tough enough for young men to stand for an hour like that; but these were, shall we say, mature gentlemen. I was well beyond my Catholic days by that point, but I was still moved by the honor they paid my dad.
Does this have anything to do with Seth's post? Who knows?
George
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ChasUFarley
Knights of Columbus is a Roman Catholic fraternity.
Not sure how you'd connect this to TWI, considering VPW's POV of the RC Church...
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chockfull
The Illuminati. Or the Templars. But I'm not sure if that comes from TWI, or simply the cool dreams I've had since watching the latest "National Treasure" movie.
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coolchef
the masons?
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waysider
I think he was secretly pledged to the Sacred Order of Balogna Slingers
Which, of course, would mean he was a card carrying S.O.B.
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markomalley
ROTFLMAO
Next thing you know, he'll claim that VPW was a permanent deacon at Holy Rosary Parish in St. Mary's City, OH.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I'll say one thing...this thread has given me a few good belly laughs...
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Really Mandii
The Knight's of Columbus (of which my husband is a member) and the Mason's do no consider themselves 'secret societies.' A true secret society means you would not know they existed nevertheless how to get in touch with them, period. Both societies are easily found and contacted for membership; one within the Roman Catholic Church, your local cathedral or the Masons and their affiliate orders such as the Order of the Eastern Star can be reached either through a friend or relative of yours that is a member or even through the internet. Both societies and I am speaking of first hand knowledge or with that knowledge want members that will represent the society well and having a good reputation, no crimes or anything offensive in your background is a must. I don't know when that started, but with those I know, those rules are in place.
As for secret, TWI critics tried to guess what was going on during a PFAL session as well since no non paying, non registered people were allowed to attend. Secrecy and occultism is in the eye of the beholder. Many fundamental Christians consider the health and wealth gospel along with speaking things into being part of the New Age movement and as having occult roots.
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waysider
Yo, Seth
Just wanted to let you know I wasn't poking fun at your question.
Actually, your motivation in asking it seems to have some real merit.
VP probably would have been pickled tink if he could have been associated with a real genuine "secret society".
After all, he was all the time trying to promote his "ministry" as the appointed keepers of "the greatest secret in the world today", now wasn't he?
Yeah, we could have called ourselves the Sacred Hierarchy of Interpretation and Tongues.
Do I really need to call attention to the fact that an appropriate acronym describing The Way could thus be drawn from that name?
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excathedra
do you think that would have helped veepee ? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah ah ah ah ah
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RachelYsrael
I beg to differ on VP being anti-catholic. 95% of ALL madern christianity is catholic. I am suprised at the forgetfulness about everything concerning Martin Luther. He broke from the catholic church aver divorce, but he didn't change much.
Christmas
Easter
Sunday Worship
Eating Unclean Animals
All this is from Rome. If Jesus himself appeared in the flesh and told a christian to keep the Sabbath or don't eat pork there would be the familiar fight. Christians didn't eat pork until around 325AD. They also kept the traditional Sabbath until Emporer Constintine, under the threat death forced christians to do sun worship and called it the new christian sabbath day. Same with christmas and that old tree - which has very specific prohibitions in Jeremiah 10. All this came from what has evolved into the catholic church.
To me, it's very sad that we can read the Bible, and then do what we want and say it's OK because of "traditions of men"
Rachel
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waysider
Rachel
I don't quite understand your point.
VP frequently spoke in a derogatory manner regarding the Catholic Church as well as the doctrines that the Catholic Church adhered to.
How is that not "anti" Catholic?
Maybe I have misunderstood your post.
Could you clarify?
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RachelYsrael
Hi there,
My point is that while he spoke against the catholic church, he maintained much of its teaching and doctrine.
Like Martin Luther, who split from them and forming the protestant (?) denomination, there was/is very little difference in the beliefs and practices. (I can't remember right now specifically, but I think the one of the few things M.L. did away with was indulgences). The things I mentioned previously about food, sunday ect. is straight out of the Roman Catholic religion. It is not Biblical, and you will not find those things being practiced by the first christians in the Bible. It just is not there.
So, while vpw may have spoke strongly against RCC - He continued in and maintained their doctrine.
There is similarities also between the Nunnery/Preisthood with the WOW and Corp sexually.
We all know homosexuality and sex among the priests and nuns is a very real issue in the RCC. There have been thousands of stories since the dark ages of mass baby graves - babies of nuns and priests. And now the thing with priests molesting children. You put people in close quarters together and tell them to remain celibate.
Not gonna happen.
The first commandment given was to be fruitful, and God blessed each and every one of us with the desire and will to obey that commandment.
VP put single people and families together, under one roof to "move the Word" and caused them all to sin by the rampant illicit sex that can't but help to occur when men and women - or men/men - women/women live in such close quarters.
They have sex. With each other. Very few people have enough restraint to not do it, at least once. That's why we all know the absolute HORROR stories about sex in the way.
Just like in the catholic church.
I know many may disagree with me, and that's OK. But there are more similarities in doctrine and practice than differences. Sure he SPOKE against the RCC. But he taught what they teach. Repackaged, for sure, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
Rachel
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waysider
Thanks for your response, Rachel.
That certainly adds a great deal of clarity to the subject.
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Really Mandii
Rachel said "VP put single people and families together, under one roof to "move the Word" and caused them all to sin by the rampant illicit sex that can't but help to occur when men and women - or men/men - women/women live in such close quarters."
So is that ALL without distinction or all without exeception? Just kidding, just don't go painting everyone with the same wide sex brush you got there, not everyone and certainly not ALL had sex just because they lived together, I am proof of that.
Victor Paul Wierwille went to great lengths to separate himself from the general Christian community, which had separated themselves hundreds of years ago from the Roman Catholic doctrines that came from Rome. How you perceive that VPW continued in the Roman Catholic doctrines escapes me.
There has never been proof of mass baby graves. I know I had heard of it before, especially since TWI and VP whored a book called The Babylonian Mystery Religion which compares the RC church to Pagan (gasp) religion, and mentions mass baby graves, but there has never been archaeological proof for it. I don't doubt that any nuns could have gotten pregnant and disposed of their baby one way or another or that it could have happened to many. But that is just assumptions and it is a grand leap in assumptions to say that and then claim there are mass baby graves. Especially since the author pulled the book and retracted it.
VPW denied the Trinity, a major crux of many mainstream Christian religions and many not so mainstream.
He denied that one could lose their salavation which the RC church maintains. The RC church also believes in different types of sins such as venial and cardinal which is hinged upon the person's motivation and understanding which VP mocked in the PFAL class as being wrong. All sins were sins and it was just called a mising of the mark. Further, VP did away with sin in a believer's life and called it broken fellowship while other Christians call it sin.
He denied that the dead are alive now, which most Christian religions believe that they are alive elsewhere.
He denied giving to charities, all money should go to TWI to help move his version of the Bible.
He did not believe in the Lord's Prayer. Vain repetition.
He did not believe in the Saints, can't prayer to anyone not even Jesus.
He did not believe in the Immaculate Conception which has nothing to do with Jesus but everything to do with his Mother, Mary as it is believed she was born without the stain of original sin so that she would be a worthy vessel to carry the Logos, the Son of the FAther. Reference is made to the fellow in the Old Testament who reached out to touch the ark of God when it look like it was going to fall off the stand it was on and he was struck down dead and how Mary had to be beautified, sanctified and set apart from others to be able to be granted to carry the only begotten Son of God.
VP claimed along with other leaders that the Pope was born of the seed of the serpent.
VP claimed that along with Martindale that all Christian images such as the cross and those statues were like dog whistles that debil spirits could hear and were like lightening rods in attracting them.
VP did not believe in a middle man confession to a priest and did not believe in confessing individual sins (PFAL) he believed in as he said, Confessing the Savior from sins.
VP did not believe in fasting in a type of worship mode or in self sacrifice while the RC church does along with many other Christian religions. VP didn't believe in any type of self sacrifice for himself and the other fasts we were introduced was some new improved quack way to cleanse out your bowels, all fads.
VP taught we were free from the law and that the Ten Commandments were not for us and that the gospels were never addressed to us. The RC church along with many Christian religions do not believe this and the RC church gives emminence to the gospels.
The RC church does believe you will still answer for what you have done here while VP taught that there is no accounting for sins at the Bema. Now some other Christian religions agree with that, but the RC church does not and that is the issue here.
In investigating the RC church and it's hold on people way back when when church and state were never separated over in Euorpe, yes we see some dietary laws instituted through the church, because they WERE the law. Not eating meat on Fridays, I read once was a response to a shortage of meat and to solve that problem people were told to fast. As for not eating unclean animals such as pigs, I do not know if that is true. I know other sources say that pigs were a big part of the medieval diet. http://books.google.com/books?id=MO_Obx4ns...-ARfC0#PPA72,M1
I guess my main purpose in responding to you post is that it has never been my opinion that VPW and TWI has continued in standard Christian practice and doctrine. I do believe and for many good reasons that VPW and LCM and TWI have done everything to distance themselves from just that and do not consider other Christians to be on the same par with them and I think that doctrine has gotten even more judgmental since I left TWI.
VPW was not a wanderer in the many tenets of Christianity but sought to make himself a king with a new religion that just borrowed Christian terminology from a widely accepted religion to make his look more legit. The only true Christianity that could have been found in TWI were the people who were recruited that somewhere in their hearts the love of God truly lived. VP sought to make himself a leader with an army. He did not want a bunch of reclusive people who did nothing but hide behind convent walls who prayed but rather who could go out and further the purposes of TWI and in my opinion, be there to fullfil his own dark purposes. There was nothing haphazard or accidental about anything he did, anything he taught and anything that happened. His ministry was not in response to a society where church ruled everyone aspect of a person's life and the best way a poor person could climb in society was to get a patron to sponsor him in the church. VP's club existed solely through the desires and ego of one man, and that was himself.
It is not the fault of any other religion, government or institution that caused VP to form TWI. There are no excuses for what he did, what he taught and what he taught the inner sanctum of his male leaders to do. Claiming that it was modeled after another corrupted institution does not smooth it over or make it understanble or less devilish. TWI is what it is and all on it's own; a train out of control.
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Belle
I had never heard a Catholic joke until getting involved with TWI.
That being said, yes, for as much as vee pee and craiggers ridiculed, joked about, despised the Catholic church and for as much hatred as they built toward that particular church - TWI is way more like them than they would ever like to admit.
There were quite a few threads on WayDale about the similarities between the two. I've tried to find the ones here at the cafe (if there were any), but I believe we used the abbreviation RC and that's not enough letters for the search feature to find.
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