It is great to grow out of our boxes. Often it is the box that keeps a certain thing mysterious.
I took a foundations class in metaphysics that required me to do a project after it was all over. So much of the material was already part of me, and some of it blew my mind. I decided to write "My Constitution" as my project.
It seems that we are always dealing with "who am I?" and "what am I doing here?". In every place of our lives we are able to grow and find new meaning to the basic questions. TWI served it's purpose in it's time. We grew out of the box into the next big adventure! And here we are and so it is!
But for me, mystery…searching…and the occasional discovery – that's what makes life intriguing. Like the surprises in relationships when you see a different side of someone.
It seems God does have a long suit in being mysterious – but I think curiosity is the spice of life.
HI T!
The "OCCASIONAL discovery," good choice of words for the reality of searching Him out. I was so sure I knew it ALL while in TWI. So sure. In fact, sometimes, I miss that asurity. The confindence that came with ''knowing'' everything....but, it also came with a lot of heartache. EGO and PRIDE are two of the biggest sins in my book. (and His really!)
What I find intriging now, is that I don't have to know everything about HIM. I am confindent in GOD, and who He is to me, that won't change. What does keep me wondering and guessing is the fact that He is mysterious, and my human mind cannot even wrap itself around the sum of His Being.
That is why debating heavily over the Trinity is a lost cause. In TWI we put God in a neat package so that our human understanding could ''figure Him out''. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
It cracks me up now because, well, He is the one that made our minds. We say he is NOT 3 persons..........cuz to our human minds that is sensible. But, that doesn't mean outside of our human understanding He doesn't exsist in a totally different way.
I had an innie recently dig into my pshyche to find out the ''why'' of leaving TWI. And of course their only reason for staying is that they package the ''accuracy of the Word better than anyone''.
Yup, nicely tight fiting package, just the way YOU LIKE IT!
You know, I just thought of a section that's fascinating for me to compare with the verse you brought up. I can't think of the reference right off hand but I know you could find it if you want.
The place in the gospels where Jesus Christ says something like "kings and prophets wanted to see these things, but you've showed them to children" in his prayer to God.
Patrick – I like the way you put that "We grew out of the box into the next big adventure!" ….Makes me think of life being a journey – and I stayed too long on one particular path…It would be great if you shared some more about the metaphysics class and your project.
Bliss – "What does keep me wondering and guessing is the fact that He is mysterious, and my human mind cannot even wrap itself around the sum of His Being." Yes – it's frustrating at times – we're so used to the feeling of mastery in the information age – we can get on the Internet and find beaucoup of stuff on just about anything!... I'm thankful to even get a tiny glimpse of God – don't think we're capable of wrapping our minds around Him…but certainly we have touched Him…and He has touched us. Your post got me thinking of the communion John 14 talks about – mentioning the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – don't understand how it all works together but bottom line is that somehow in all that Jesus reveals Himself to us!
Jeff – I found the passage in Luke 10:
Luke 10:21-24 NASB
21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
22 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
23 Turning to the disciples, He said privately, "Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see,
24 for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them."
Maybe we're comparing apples to oranges. I'm thinking the Proverbs 25 passage addresses practical matters at hand – of which God expects kings to apply due diligence to handle appropriately. Luke 10 speaks of Jesus revealing something to whom He wills. I wonder if verse 24 is referring to the disciples literally seeing and hearing the things Jesus said and did.
I'm not casting doubt on illumination by God – yes, that's a very real and necessary part of the Christian experience. And yes – it's grace for God to do that – but I also think we are curious BY DESIGN…maybe God wants us to take a more active role in learning about Him. I would think the directive in Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you has practical application for deepening our relationship with Him.
I love reading your words they seem to have great wisdom in them
Proverbs 25:2 NASB
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
Something about this verse has always fascinated me. It's comparing the roles of God and kings – how God's knowledge and wisdom is far beyond the most powerful of people. His ways are unsearchable – whereas leaders must apply due diligence in order to handle matters.
I know I read that verse many times but you have just made me think about it deeper - I love it when God uses another to point out things we over looked
Another thing I think about with this passage – is how creation is filled with wonder and mystery. Why does this or that exist?...How does this or that work?...What's this or that all about? The things of life are not self-explanatory. Curiosity drives people to wonder about stuff – from scientists and philosophers to someone reflecting on a sunset.
yes I like to think about the why's, how come's, were it came from's, how it grow's, what if's, and the list is endless as we reflect on life
As much as I enjoy reading the Bible – it seems God left a lot of things bundled up in a mystery there too…so many things I don't understand. And the closer I'm drawn to God – the more I'm aware of how little I understand about Him. How odd – a very humbling yet stimulating experience.
yes uts seems we spend more time asking God about things than reading or at least I do these days
How different from when I was in TWI. Absorbing all their beliefs and perspective was about as intellectually stimulating as shooting fish in a barrel. Now I find life to be so much more interesting in "the thrill of the hunt", armed with an insatiable desire to understand…to question…to wonder….But for me, mystery…searching…and the occasional discovery – that's what makes life intriguing. Like the surprises in relationships when you see a different side of someone.
yes it does make life intriguing has it feels my heart with joy
When on Grease Spot I now read a lot more than post – and I like to read stuff by folks who have beliefs way different than mine – it gets me thinking…wondering…What an enjoyable website – not only for telling the other side of the story – but for the unique unfolding story of each person exploring life outside the TWI-box.
I like reading people beliefs way different than mine too but the day seems to go to fast were I do not get to read as must as I would like to have read - I spend time searching for old books to read but most of my time is just talking at God and Christ and people who have past on
It seems God does have a long suit in being mysterious – but I think curiosity is the spice of life.
yes curiosity is the spice of life for me too
This post has been edited by T-Bone: Dec 27 2007, 05:36 PM
i guess you asked why add this part because I see editing our heart is a big part of growing outside the box od self
Wnat can I add my heart cries out
Today my bigest fight is with my self I know some-what of what I need to do but
yes the bigbut
I can hear God talk to me as well as Christ and others clearer than years ago
but I still want to become a great person fleshly at times while I know it not about the fleshly desires but about having a heart of love
I can prophecy all day or speak in tongues with the interpretation all day and night but at times I found myself wanting to know something like a date other than what I known for sure was given to me
I guess I want to shut down all the fasle teachers of today with knowledge to prove who I am
but in true my love for God proves all that is needed and if I give good dates that just a added blessing
what I am saying is we all have things to battle in our lives at least leaving the Way cult is one win
I guess I am at a lost for words my friends with words of space more than wisdom but that what been running in my mind
Great stuff everyone – thanks!.....Something else this thread has me thinking about – how we each respond to things unknown…how we navigate in unfamiliar territory…Perhaps courage and a taste for adventure should be the companions of curiosity.
Weak is a belief system that leads a sheltered life – i.e. does not engage reality. I'm thinking of my stint in TWI – oh, what daze of humdrum fare . That was a time of false security from a grand delusion of "superior knowledge." God forbid a great calamity should have happened – I would have cratered.
Think about the experiences of Job. In the midst of his suffering one of his friends reminds him of God's awesomeness:
Job 5:9 NASB
Who does great and unsearchable things, wonders without number.
If I was Job – I would have said, "Hey, you're not helping." And by the time we get to God answering Job out of the whirlwind, you'd think He'd explain all the whys and wherefores of what's going on – but no. Instead of supplying answers, God unleashes a barrage of questions…And while today's scientists can answer some questions of how things in the physical world work – none can explain how things actually came to be:
Job 38:1-36 NASB
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
2 "Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 "Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6 "On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 "Or who enclosed the sea with doors
When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;
9 When I made a cloud its garment
And thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 And I placed boundaries on it
And set a bolt and doors,
11 And I said, 'Thus far you shall come, but no farther;
And here shall your proud waves stop'?
12 "Have you ever in your life commanded the morning,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 "It is changed like clay under the seal;
And they stand forth like a garment.
15 "From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the uplifted arm is broken.
16 "Have you entered into the springs of the sea
Or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 "Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18 "Have you understood the expanse of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
19 "Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory
And that you may discern the paths to its home?
21 "You know, for you were born then,
And the number of your days is great!
22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of war and battle?
24 "Where is the way that the light is divided,
Or the east wind scattered on the earth?
25 "Who has cleft a channel for the flood,
Or a way for the thunderbolt,
26 To bring rain on a land without people,
On a desert without a man in it,
27 To satisfy the waste and desolate land
And to make the seeds of grass to sprout?
28 "Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 "From whose womb has come the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who has given it birth?
30 "Water becomes hard like stone,
And the surface of the deep is imprisoned.
31 "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades,
Or loose the cords of Orion?
32 "Can you lead forth a constellation in its season,
And guide the Bear with her satellites?
33 "Do you know the ordinances of the heavens,
Or fix their rule over the earth?
34 "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
So that an abundance of water will cover you?
35 "Can you send forth lightnings that they may go
And say to you, 'Here we are'?
36 "Who has put wisdom in the innermost being
Or given understanding to the mind?
After a ton of questions by God, Job responds:
Job 42:1-6 NASB
1 Then Job answered the LORD and said,
2 "I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
"Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
4 'Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.'
5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
6 Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes."
Maybe as we think about the majesty, power, and wisdom of God reflected in creation we not only come to terms with our own ignorance and weakness – but God Himself looms large in our mind's eye.
How many times were peaceful while doing what twi wanted?
not much.
it was all stress and strain and gosh just to much .
This mystery you speak of T bone has done a bit of a twist with me, not knowing has brought me more peace than trying to figure it all out with stress and strain and not getting anywhere .
then when the truth is revealed such glory and joy is felt it all is worth the wonder of who Jesus Christ is.
I rather prefer it to trying to put the pieces together like twi does, because i believe the picture is ever changing .
Jeff – yup, Proverbs 9:10 is a big favorite of mine – The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. IMHO, the Bible is not something to satisfy our intellectual curiosity but is a means of drawing our souls closer to Him. This sort of ties into stuff Bride of JC and Pond talked about.
Bride of JC – "amen" to your "amen"! I was reading Ecclesiastes today and your mentioning of a path to the beginning of knowledge made me think of
Ecclesiastes 3:11 NASB
He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
The first sentence hits me as saying the universe is NOT meaningless – that our God has a purpose for everything. Maybe the next sentence alludes to that insatiable hunger in our hearts – a God-shaped-hole that is impossible to fill – perhaps a built-in desire for things eternal…We're on a path of knowledge that has no end!
I'll second your motion - Happy New Year to everyone!
Pond – your post describes how things changed for me after leaving TWI. I went from me trying to figure it all out to drawing closer to Jesus Christ – and yes, now the mental picture of life I hold seems to be in a perpetual state of flux. No complaints here – life is not boring – I'm on an adventure with my Lord!
I think you've made a great observation about the stress and strain with the mysteries in life – when we deal with such matters apart from Christ. I'm reminded of something else I came across in Ecclesiastes:
Ecclesiastes 1:12-18 NASB
12 I, the Preacher, have been king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13 And I set my mind to seek and explore by wisdom concerning all that has been done under heaven. It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.
14 I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind.
15 What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted.
16 I said to myself, "Behold, I have magnified and increased wisdom more than all who were over Jerusalem before me; and my mind has observed a wealth of wisdom and knowledge."
17 And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind.
18 Because in much wisdom there is much grief, and increasing knowledge results in increasing pain.
Some commentators point out that the phrases under heaven and under the sun used in Ecclesiastes represents a viewpoint that ignores God. Also, TheMacArthur Study Biblepoints out the covenant name "Lord" is never used in Ecclesiastes. However, "God" is found almost 40 times – with the emphasis being more on God's sovereignty and providence in the universe than His covenant relationship through redemption. Perhaps that is why Solomon concluded all is madness, folly, bringing grief and pain – when we pursue wisdom apart from a relationship with the Lord.
Maybe as we think about the majesty, power, and wisdom of God reflected in creation we not only come to terms with our own ignorance and weakness – but God Himself looms large in our mind's eye.
I like that statement. Job did not obtain a reason for his suffering. In answering Job, God spoke in awe-inspiring majesty and reordered Job's view of Him, but did not give account of his superintendence of events to the man.
Good topic, T-Bone, and good posts.
I need to accomplish some stuff in the next few months, however, and can’t presently take time to do much more than nod.
And my dear Pond, what you said reminds me of the feeling I got when my wife's words finally got through to me one day... she said, "It's OK if you don't have it all figured out," and I believed her. (May your year, my dear, be wrinkle-free.... beyond even the promises of the cold cream manufacturers.)
This is from the "new guy" on this website who thinks you and I would get along great, once we get to know each other better. (from "mystery" - for now) I have this to offer you concerning Prov 25:2:
"Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter."
Isn't it interesting to note that the words "glory" and "honor" in this verse are the same word? (strongs #03519)
Part of its definition implies abundance and riches, along with glory and honor.
It is as though God deems himself "rich" (see definition 1a) in being a bit mysterious about many things, but is so willing to freely impart them to all who seek after them, that they too may be "rich as a king" with this knowledge, just by acting like kings should...and that is merely to search out the matter. (Act like a king, then you will be one!)
After all, why should God make everything so plain that we become responsible for many things before we can really handle them properly? Then we would be living in self-condemnation for having many things, but not really knowing how to use them wisely. It is safer for God to just hide them a bit. Would you give the keys to your car to a 5-year-old, and send him off in it? I think not! As you remember, God will not allow anything to come your way that you cannot handle. (I Co 10:13) So do not be afraid to look into matters. If you are not yet ready for something, He will "put his foot down" to make sure you are not bothered with it yet.
And when the time comes that you can handle it...you will see that it is not really hidden so bad after all. THEN WOW! How rich can you be for not only the aquiring of it, but also having the ability to use it wisely as well!
You even said of yourself, T-Bone, "Now I find life to be so much more interesting in "the thrill of the hunt", armed with an insatiable desire to understand…to question…to wonder….But for me, mystery…searching…and the occasional discovery – that's what makes life intriguing. Like the surprises in relationships when you see a different side of someone. "
You also remarked, "It seems God does have a long suit in being mysterious – but I think curiosity is the spice of life."
And even more, "...how creation is filled with wonder and mystery. Why does this or that exist?...How does this or that work?...What's this or that all about?...."
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Patrick and Sarah
Hey T,
It is great to grow out of our boxes. Often it is the box that keeps a certain thing mysterious.
I took a foundations class in metaphysics that required me to do a project after it was all over. So much of the material was already part of me, and some of it blew my mind. I decided to write "My Constitution" as my project.
It seems that we are always dealing with "who am I?" and "what am I doing here?". In every place of our lives we are able to grow and find new meaning to the basic questions. TWI served it's purpose in it's time. We grew out of the box into the next big adventure! And here we are and so it is!
Patrick
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bliss
HI T!
The "OCCASIONAL discovery," good choice of words for the reality of searching Him out. I was so sure I knew it ALL while in TWI. So sure. In fact, sometimes, I miss that asurity. The confindence that came with ''knowing'' everything....but, it also came with a lot of heartache. EGO and PRIDE are two of the biggest sins in my book. (and His really!)
What I find intriging now, is that I don't have to know everything about HIM. I am confindent in GOD, and who He is to me, that won't change. What does keep me wondering and guessing is the fact that He is mysterious, and my human mind cannot even wrap itself around the sum of His Being.
That is why debating heavily over the Trinity is a lost cause. In TWI we put God in a neat package so that our human understanding could ''figure Him out''. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
It cracks me up now because, well, He is the one that made our minds. We say he is NOT 3 persons..........cuz to our human minds that is sensible. But, that doesn't mean outside of our human understanding He doesn't exsist in a totally different way.
I had an innie recently dig into my pshyche to find out the ''why'' of leaving TWI. And of course their only reason for staying is that they package the ''accuracy of the Word better than anyone''.
Yup, nicely tight fiting package, just the way YOU LIKE IT!
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JeffSjo
Hi T-Bone,
You know, I just thought of a section that's fascinating for me to compare with the verse you brought up. I can't think of the reference right off hand but I know you could find it if you want.
The place in the gospels where Jesus Christ says something like "kings and prophets wanted to see these things, but you've showed them to children" in his prayer to God.
I'll have to check it out later.
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T-Bone
Patrick – I like the way you put that "We grew out of the box into the next big adventure!" ….Makes me think of life being a journey – and I stayed too long on one particular path…It would be great if you shared some more about the metaphysics class and your project.
Bliss – "What does keep me wondering and guessing is the fact that He is mysterious, and my human mind cannot even wrap itself around the sum of His Being." Yes – it's frustrating at times – we're so used to the feeling of mastery in the information age – we can get on the Internet and find beaucoup of stuff on just about anything!... I'm thankful to even get a tiny glimpse of God – don't think we're capable of wrapping our minds around Him…but certainly we have touched Him…and He has touched us. Your post got me thinking of the communion John 14 talks about – mentioning the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – don't understand how it all works together but bottom line is that somehow in all that Jesus reveals Himself to us!
Jeff – I found the passage in Luke 10:
Luke 10:21-24 NASB
21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
22 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
23 Turning to the disciples, He said privately, "Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see,
24 for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them."
Maybe we're comparing apples to oranges. I'm thinking the Proverbs 25 passage addresses practical matters at hand – of which God expects kings to apply due diligence to handle appropriately. Luke 10 speaks of Jesus revealing something to whom He wills. I wonder if verse 24 is referring to the disciples literally seeing and hearing the things Jesus said and did.
I'm not casting doubt on illumination by God – yes, that's a very real and necessary part of the Christian experience. And yes – it's grace for God to do that – but I also think we are curious BY DESIGN…maybe God wants us to take a more active role in learning about Him. I would think the directive in Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you has practical application for deepening our relationship with Him.
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JeffSjo
Hi T-bone,
The best way that I know to consider the matter goes something like this:
If I'm considering a matter, don't get a clear answer,and don't come to a bad conclusion, I'm doing o.k.
If I think I have a clear answer but am mistaken, I need correction.
If I have a clear answer, it could only be by the grace of God.
IT SEEMS TO ME T-BONE THAT BOTH SCRIPTURES FIT TOGETHER AS PART OF A LARGER PICTURE.
That picture might be phrased as "Seeking the truth and finding it, get it right." Easy to say, hard to do.
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anotherDan
I have nothing to add other than that I enjoyed reading this thread!
:)
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waysider
Hi,Dan
Ditto on your post
Just wanted to pop in and say----------
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year2027
God first
Beloved T-Bone and others
God loves you my dear friend
I love reading your words they seem to have great wisdom in them
Wnat can I add my heart cries out
Today my bigest fight is with my self I know some-what of what I need to do but
yes the bigbut
I can hear God talk to me as well as Christ and others clearer than years ago
but I still want to become a great person fleshly at times while I know it not about the fleshly desires but about having a heart of love
I can prophecy all day or speak in tongues with the interpretation all day and night but at times I found myself wanting to know something like a date other than what I known for sure was given to me
I guess I want to shut down all the fasle teachers of today with knowledge to prove who I am
but in true my love for God proves all that is needed and if I give good dates that just a added blessing
what I am saying is we all have things to battle in our lives at least leaving the Way cult is one win
I guess I am at a lost for words my friends with words of space more than wisdom but that what been running in my mind
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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anotherDan
Roy, I sometimes get that a lot.... "words of space." That's when it's so nice to have friends like you and TB and waysider
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year2027
God first
Beloved anotherDan
God loves you my dear friend
I am glad I am not the only one
yes its nice to have you as a friend too
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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T-Bone
Great stuff everyone – thanks!.....Something else this thread has me thinking about – how we each respond to things unknown…how we navigate in unfamiliar territory…Perhaps courage and a taste for adventure should be the companions of curiosity.
Weak is a belief system that leads a sheltered life – i.e. does not engage reality. I'm thinking of my stint in TWI – oh, what daze of humdrum fare
. That was a time of false security from a grand delusion of "superior knowledge." God forbid a great calamity should have happened – I would have cratered.
Think about the experiences of Job. In the midst of his suffering one of his friends reminds him of God's awesomeness:
Job 5:9 NASB
Who does great and unsearchable things, wonders without number.
If I was Job – I would have said, "Hey, you're not helping." And by the time we get to God answering Job out of the whirlwind, you'd think He'd explain all the whys and wherefores of what's going on – but no. Instead of supplying answers, God unleashes a barrage of questions…And while today's scientists can answer some questions of how things in the physical world work – none can explain how things actually came to be:
Job 38:1-36 NASB
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
2 "Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 "Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6 "On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 "Or who enclosed the sea with doors
When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;
9 When I made a cloud its garment
And thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 And I placed boundaries on it
And set a bolt and doors,
11 And I said, 'Thus far you shall come, but no farther;
And here shall your proud waves stop'?
12 "Have you ever in your life commanded the morning,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 "It is changed like clay under the seal;
And they stand forth like a garment.
15 "From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the uplifted arm is broken.
16 "Have you entered into the springs of the sea
Or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 "Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18 "Have you understood the expanse of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
19 "Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory
And that you may discern the paths to its home?
21 "You know, for you were born then,
And the number of your days is great!
22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of war and battle?
24 "Where is the way that the light is divided,
Or the east wind scattered on the earth?
25 "Who has cleft a channel for the flood,
Or a way for the thunderbolt,
26 To bring rain on a land without people,
On a desert without a man in it,
27 To satisfy the waste and desolate land
And to make the seeds of grass to sprout?
28 "Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 "From whose womb has come the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who has given it birth?
30 "Water becomes hard like stone,
And the surface of the deep is imprisoned.
31 "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades,
Or loose the cords of Orion?
32 "Can you lead forth a constellation in its season,
And guide the Bear with her satellites?
33 "Do you know the ordinances of the heavens,
Or fix their rule over the earth?
34 "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
So that an abundance of water will cover you?
35 "Can you send forth lightnings that they may go
And say to you, 'Here we are'?
36 "Who has put wisdom in the innermost being
Or given understanding to the mind?
After a ton of questions by God, Job responds:
Job 42:1-6 NASB
1 Then Job answered the LORD and said,
2 "I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
"Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
4 'Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.'
5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
6 Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes."
Maybe as we think about the majesty, power, and wisdom of God reflected in creation we not only come to terms with our own ignorance and weakness – but God Himself looms large in our mind's eye.
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anotherDan
Reading what TB writes is like listening to myself think..... if only I were in a better frame of mind!
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JeffSjo
Hi T-Bone,
I like this thread. Your sentiments bring to mind another scripture for me.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge."
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brideofjc
Amen to that! The wonderful aspect of it all, is that the Lord's wisdom is unfathomable and therefore
I do believe, we will always feel like we are only just beginning to know the HOLY ONE.
After leaving TWI, this is when the path to the beginning of knowledge began. TWI was like being in kindergarten
but new vistas keep opening up for anyone who dares to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hope you all have a Great 2008, the year of New Beginnings.
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pond
Jesus says He brings us peace.
How many times were peaceful while doing what twi wanted?
not much.
it was all stress and strain and gosh just to much .
This mystery you speak of T bone has done a bit of a twist with me, not knowing has brought me more peace than trying to figure it all out with stress and strain and not getting anywhere .
then when the truth is revealed such glory and joy is felt it all is worth the wonder of who Jesus Christ is.
I rather prefer it to trying to put the pieces together like twi does, because i believe the picture is ever changing .
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T-Bone
Jeff – yup, Proverbs 9:10 is a big favorite of mine – The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. IMHO, the Bible is not something to satisfy our intellectual curiosity but is a means of drawing our souls closer to Him. This sort of ties into stuff Bride of JC and Pond talked about.
Bride of JC – "amen" to your "amen"! I was reading Ecclesiastes today and your mentioning of a path to the beginning of knowledge made me think of
Ecclesiastes 3:11 NASB
He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
The first sentence hits me as saying the universe is NOT meaningless – that our God has a purpose for everything. Maybe the next sentence alludes to that insatiable hunger in our hearts – a God-shaped-hole that is impossible to fill – perhaps a built-in desire for things eternal…We're on a path of knowledge that has no end!
I'll second your motion - Happy New Year to everyone!
Pond – your post describes how things changed for me after leaving TWI. I went from me trying to figure it all out to drawing closer to Jesus Christ – and yes, now the mental picture of life I hold seems to be in a perpetual state of flux. No complaints here – life is not boring – I'm on an adventure with my Lord!
I think you've made a great observation about the stress and strain with the mysteries in life – when we deal with such matters apart from Christ. I'm reminded of something else I came across in Ecclesiastes:
Ecclesiastes 1:12-18 NASB
12 I, the Preacher, have been king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13 And I set my mind to seek and explore by wisdom concerning all that has been done under heaven. It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.
14 I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind.
15 What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted.
16 I said to myself, "Behold, I have magnified and increased wisdom more than all who were over Jerusalem before me; and my mind has observed a wealth of wisdom and knowledge."
17 And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind.
18 Because in much wisdom there is much grief, and increasing knowledge results in increasing pain.
Some commentators point out that the phrases under heaven and under the sun used in Ecclesiastes represents a viewpoint that ignores God. Also, The MacArthur Study Bible points out the covenant name "Lord" is never used in Ecclesiastes. However, "God" is found almost 40 times – with the emphasis being more on God's sovereignty and providence in the universe than His covenant relationship through redemption. Perhaps that is why Solomon concluded all is madness, folly, bringing grief and pain – when we pursue wisdom apart from a relationship with the Lord.
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Cynic
I like that statement. Job did not obtain a reason for his suffering. In answering Job, God spoke in awe-inspiring majesty and reordered Job's view of Him, but did not give account of his superintendence of events to the man.
Good topic, T-Bone, and good posts.
I need to accomplish some stuff in the next few months, however, and can’t presently take time to do much more than nod.
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anotherDan
I second Cynic's comments regarding TB's words.
And my dear Pond, what you said reminds me of the feeling I got when my wife's words finally got through to me one day... she said, "It's OK if you don't have it all figured out," and I believed her. (May your year, my dear, be wrinkle-free.... beyond even the promises of the cold cream manufacturers.)
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spectrum49
Hi T-Bone!
This is from the "new guy" on this website who thinks you and I would get along great, once we get to know each other better. (from "mystery" - for now) I have this to offer you concerning Prov 25:2:
"Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter."
Isn't it interesting to note that the words "glory" and "honor" in this verse are the same word? (strongs #03519)
Part of its definition implies abundance and riches, along with glory and honor.
It is as though God deems himself "rich" (see definition 1a) in being a bit mysterious about many things, but is so willing to freely impart them to all who seek after them, that they too may be "rich as a king" with this knowledge, just by acting like kings should...and that is merely to search out the matter. (Act like a king, then you will be one!)
After all, why should God make everything so plain that we become responsible for many things before we can really handle them properly? Then we would be living in self-condemnation for having many things, but not really knowing how to use them wisely. It is safer for God to just hide them a bit. Would you give the keys to your car to a 5-year-old, and send him off in it? I think not! As you remember, God will not allow anything to come your way that you cannot handle. (I Co 10:13) So do not be afraid to look into matters. If you are not yet ready for something, He will "put his foot down" to make sure you are not bothered with it yet.
And when the time comes that you can handle it...you will see that it is not really hidden so bad after all. THEN WOW! How rich can you be for not only the aquiring of it, but also having the ability to use it wisely as well!
You even said of yourself, T-Bone, "Now I find life to be so much more interesting in "the thrill of the hunt", armed with an insatiable desire to understand…to question…to wonder….But for me, mystery…searching…and the occasional discovery – that's what makes life intriguing. Like the surprises in relationships when you see a different side of someone. "
You also remarked, "It seems God does have a long suit in being mysterious – but I think curiosity is the spice of life."
And even more, "...how creation is filled with wonder and mystery. Why does this or that exist?...How does this or that work?...What's this or that all about?...."
Thanks for listening!
(mystery - for now)
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T-Bone
Great post Spectrum 49, and welcome to Grease Spot!
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