What do you think about one poster (Rascal) telling another poster (oldiesman) what he saw in twi? i.e. "Naw oldies...what YOU saw was works...works of the flesh."
Gosh oldies, are you denying what you have shared with us here? I know that folks were nice to you and your family personally. I know that folks taught scripture to you, and your subsequent appreciation....I know that you DIDN`T see what happened to the rest of us...shrug. I have yet however to see any references to incidences of demonstrated fruit in vpw or lcm`s life....shrug
That is solely what I based my understanding on. Have you anything in the fruit category that you personally witnessed that you WOULD care to share with us for consideration? If so I would be happy to consider a re evaluation of my understanding :)
Patience, gentleness, peace. These things will help.
I've been very honest with Rascal that I remember the Grace of God in TWI. I don't condemn her either and I've plainly stated why in the "offense" thread.
After all, a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Well I have to vehemenently disagree with that one. I witnessed fruit of the spirit from most all the leaders I saw; Vic, Craig, Ermal, Uncle Harry, Don, Howard, Vince F., Ralph D., Bo Reahard, on and on down the line...
Like the three blind guys trying to describe an elephant..
examining the trunk, one says "an elephant is like a snake"
the other, examing the legs.. "naw.. it's like a tree.."
the other.. I forget.
But I think that's what we have here.
One says, "gawd, he was a drambuie soaked a**hole.."
another: "he was an abusive and demanding sexual pervert"
another: "he was a thief and plagiarist"
and the other: "He sure was a man of gawwd.."
I prefer to look at the big picture. He was a drambuie guzzling, perverted, narcissistic, thieving intellectual pretender who could put on a fair speech.
:)
It's like the four gospels. You know, one record doesn't give ALL of the details..
Nope oldies. No mistake. Every instance that you (and anyone else for that matter) have related here concerning vp`s supposed *good* fruit, his behavior....that I can remember were not examples of fruit at all, but simply works. Ephesians says ....that won`t save us.
There is a Big difference between the two friend. You saw some of what you consider good works, Others saw bad works...but works are works and fruit is fruit.
The fruit witnessed and documented so far places wierwille squarely in the *flesh* catagory...shrug ...that makes him, his teachings AND his ministry unreliable and untrustworthy....AND the scriptures say he has no inheritance in the kingdom of God...
Are you sure you want to trust someone like him to have an accurate understanding of spiritual matters?
Just wondering how you would characterise the usage of "fruit."
I've told you that I consider myself to be fruit. Is that how you mean it?
Or are you talking about the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace.....
(added in editing)
I would like to continue this with you rascal, I just want to be sure that we're trying to discuss the same thing. Just so you know, I share computer time and I'm never sure how much time I may have.
Nope oldies. No mistake. Every instance that you (and anyone else for that matter) have related here concerning vp`s supposed *good* fruit, his behavior....that I can remember were not examples of fruit at all, but simply works.
Rascal, you said that I saw works of the flesh. Now you seem to be changing that to "simply works" and not making any distinction between good works or bad works, i.e. they are all of them works of the flesh whether good or bad.
Also I don't quite understand your distinction between fruit and works and ask for clarification. For instance, how do you know a person has fruit of the spirit, unless their actions accompany that with good works? Is it just a feeling, a look? If fruit is not behavior, what is it?
I know a person has gentleness when they are gentle with me. I know a person has love when they walk in love towards me. I know a person has patience when they are patient with me, etc. To a person who is born again and believes in Jesus, I would equate those actions with "fruit of the spirit".
Conversely, I know a person has hate when they have hatred toward me. They could be born again, but their actions in that instance indicate they are walking by the flesh rather than by the spirit.
So perhaps if you would clarify your usage of "fruit" vs. "works" we could at least be on the same page with our definition of terms, regardless of whether we may agree or disagree. Thanks.
As far as him being kind to you at one time....loved you or was once gentle...scriptures say that even the very evil can do that to those whom they care about....that is not fruit of the spirit...
Read galations 5 ....THOSE are fruit. Fruit of the spirit and fruit of the flesh....there are two different categories. there are two specific lists that identify whether you are Of the flesh or of the spirit.
Jesus listed the fruit where by we could identify one another. Peace, long suffering, meekness, love, etc.
Ephesians talks about works....the ones that look good, but won`t save us.
What you listed of vp`s behavior so far is a few good works.
We have some good works that you saw....we have lots of bad works that other people saw....
Those don`t condemn him or save him either way......
What DOES identify him as *of the flesh* and consequently according to galatians ... what completely condemns him as a man of the flesh, rather than man of the spirit and having no inheritance in the kingdom of God....was the fruit that HE manifested....not the fruit of the spirit...but the fruit of the flesh...Adultery, drunkeness, lying, lasciviousness....etc
Scriptures condemn him friend, and all of the works that you saw will never make it ok or save him...I am sorry.
Is it possible to have love, joy, peace, goodness. meekness... etc. AND to also have committed "acts of the flesh"? (Either before or after having shown these fruit of the spirit)
What makes "love - et al" works of the flesh as opposed to fruit of the spirit?
I'm not arguing here. I do think that these questions are worth considering.
For instance, how do you know a person has fruit of the spirit, unless their actions accompany that with good works? Is it just a feeling, a look? If fruit is not behavior, what is it?
Oldies. It is a "look". For instance, one day, I saw Craig looking off into the clouds over Camp Gunnison. He had the most peaceful "look" on his face, that I just knew he was manifesting the "fruit of the spirit" known as "peace". Another time, he was explaining to my wife something about his Grandma, and they got into the whole "lineage" thing concerning Craig's family. And, because the whole "family tree thing" can be very confusing, he was very patient with my wife (his long ago friend from Oklahoma), which showed me that Craig was at that moment manifesting the fruit of the spirit known as "long suffering" (patience). BUT, not really.
And on another side of a ridiculous coin, it's very simple, really. All one has to do with judging another person's soul is just "guess" what is going on in their heart in order to determine whether or not that person will die the eternal death or be given entrance into Eternal Life. It doesn't matter that only God knows what is really in the heart of a man or a woman, all we have to do is look at their works, and if bad, and then simply judge them! Yeah, that's the ticket! And then, go around telling everyone that they are in fact going to die "The Death", because you have placed your eternal; death sentence upon them! My God, this is so ridiculous that it is unbelievable. The TRUTH is, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS the motive of a man or woman but God Almighty! Good works in a person's life may bear good fruit! Bad works in a person's life may bear bad fruit! Good works with out the love of God may very well bear some damn fine good looking fruit, but only God will know the motive behind the works. Shoot, there are all kinds of combinations, but God, the Father Of Lights, is the only one who can really judge
Personally, I would rather forgive as Jesus has so obviously told us to do, and leave the HEAVY JUDGING to God Almighty, the ONLY one who can rightfully judge a man or a woman's heart. And if I am wrong for forgiving someone who will be sentenced to die the Second Death, than I would rather err on the side of kindness, compassion, and forgiveness. And don't mistake my saying that for giving the person's actions a "pass". I didn't say give them a pass. If they did wrong, as VPW did in fact do wrong, then their actions should not be "swept under the rug" so to speak. In fact, others should be warned (unless of course the guy is ow dead). But, it is better to forgive and love than it is to hate and be angry over long ago actions by a man who is now dead and not able to come back and apologize.
why is it when people discuss the history of the cult twi and it's leader's personalities, attitudes, and works, they are labeled as bitter and unforgiving? just because I talk about something negative, and even if I'm still angry about it, doesn't mean I'm bitter.
Actually, it depends who the listener is. Some people are able to have a conversation with someone about the twi and not label them bitter. These kind of people have been helpful to me. Like if we discuss what happened at Pearl Harbor, doesn't mean I am bitter against the Japanese. It's just discussing history.
Sometimes I wonder if it's a residual affect from all of the years of leaders accusing us of not "renewing our minds" or "being negative" whenever we tried to have an honest conversation about something.
I'm not bitter, but I am fascinated with why we all said and did such stupid things and thought we were being Godly. It's therapeutic to talk over the "history" of twi.
All one has to do with judging another person's soul is just "guess" what is going on in their heart in order to determine whether or not that person will die the eternal death or be given entrance into Eternal Life.
That does presuppose that the said person even has or had a heart, to begin with.
Same could be said for a conscience, for that matter.
But then again.. maybe the old guy was bipolar. The nicest, most tranquil person on the face of the earth, one moment. Then a raging bug-eyed monster the next.
I could see how someone could mistake the "down swings" with some kinda peace or something..
and the manic episodes.. "sheesh. he's valiant for da truth.." "man, what a teaching.."
Sometimes I wonder if it's a residual affect from all of the years of leaders accusing us of not "renewing our minds" or "being negative" whenever we tried to have an honest conversation about something.
I think we were taught not to think. If one can't understand or consider what one considers "negative" maybe one cannot make a sound decision regarding it..
Perhaps these kind of dicsussions are just too painful for some people, and they'd rather shut it out.. wake up in twig somewhere in 1972..
I think there's a big difference between being angry to the extreme in the present-tense over events of the distant past; and continuing to voice anger that is from the past, but has been dealt with and healed.
In the first case, the angst can grow like a cancer. (Can - not saying it definitely will.)
In the second case it's the re-telling of a story with the emotions being added for emphasis. This would be how someone could empathize with someone relating similar events.
Is it possible to have love, joy, peace, goodness. meekness... etc. AND to also have committed "acts of the flesh"? (Either before or after having shown these fruit of the spirit)
I certainly do believe this and lack evidence to the contrary. I've seen this over and over in twi and elsewhere in life. One strong example from history, King Solomon, was a holy man of God reputed to be the wisest man in the world. Yet he also was an idolator, baby killer and sex addict.
It seems that a lot of us have an on button. It's "just get over it.. sheesh been twenty some years..he's dead, can't do anything about it now.. you're just being bitter.."
I would suggest, if one does not want to hear the elaboration over the past, don't bring it up, or don't try to disannul it. Do it to yourself if you want.. but it usually just hits the on button in others here.. at least that I've observed.
oh.. the few issues I have left are with are still alive.. in a cozy palace, insulated from any kind of confrontation, outside of legal proceedings.
Oh well..
I pity the poor bas*ards.. really. They are worse off than I am. rosie might have more cashola than what she knows what to do with.. but what happens when she's even older than she is now..
can't remember where it's all at
really. Unless she has a team of guards (lawyers), and guards to guard the guards (even more lawyers).. they will bleed her dry..
all the estate will go to pay the legal fees
me? I'll die broke, barring winning the lottery.. I don't have those kind of worries
and donna. when rosie's gone, what's her fate.. next pres of da way? I really don't think so..
I really can't see her having the stamina to go out with a bucket, ammonia, squeege.. and hit the beat, trying to dredge up a few window cleaning jobs for her next meal.. she'd fold inside of a week.
In my opinion.
and harvey.. maybe he could go back playing licks in bars.. but his years of experience in da ministry.. what's that gonna look like on a resume? Ya know.. they'll check out the corporation he claims to be on the board with.. maybe look at the history a little bit..
It was YEARS of USELESS toil.
In my opinion.
And they think they are sitting on a gold mine or something.. wait till the dow goes below 2,000..
don't say "never".. my statistics prof says of other similar matters "if it is POSSIBLE, the odds of it happening is 100%"
See Johnny.. I've "gotten over it"
I've moved on.. made a few friends, gotten a few marketable skills.. though I'll probably have to work till seventy to pay off all the student loans.
but like the salmon, I find myself swimming back up to the the little pond here..
One strong example from history, King Solomon, was a holy man of God reputed to be the wisest man in the world. Yet he also was an idolator, baby killer and sex addict.
so in the end.. he died as a fool.
maybe he wasn't "all he was cracked up to be"..
maybe he didn't have "wisdom like it hath notter been known since the -3000th century"..
Dooj, you described how I feel. Just because I am angry, deeply offended over how some imposters masqueraded as ministers destroying lives and families of the innocents that trusted them to be the ministers that they claimed to be........doesn`t mean that I am currently bitter or that it grows.....I am a reasonably happy well adjusted adult. I have managed to shed the dangerous thought patterns that kept me immobilized, and actually managed to accomplish a few worthy goals. Life is very very good these days.
I CAN say, that the horrors of past twi life inspire me to appreciate and treasure the joys and freedom I currently enjoy much more than if I had never suffered.
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oldiesman
Well golly, it sure is.
Hey Jeff,
What do you think about one poster (Rascal) telling another poster (oldiesman) what he saw in twi? i.e. "Naw oldies...what YOU saw was works...works of the flesh."
Do you have an opinion on that?
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rascal
Gosh oldies, are you denying what you have shared with us here? I know that folks were nice to you and your family personally. I know that folks taught scripture to you, and your subsequent appreciation....I know that you DIDN`T see what happened to the rest of us...shrug. I have yet however to see any references to incidences of demonstrated fruit in vpw or lcm`s life....shrug
That is solely what I based my understanding on. Have you anything in the fruit category that you personally witnessed that you WOULD care to share with us for consideration? If so I would be happy to consider a re evaluation of my understanding :)
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JeffSjo
Hi Oldiesman,
Patience, gentleness, peace. These things will help.
I've been very honest with Rascal that I remember the Grace of God in TWI. I don't condemn her either and I've plainly stated why in the "offense" thread.
After all, a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
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rascal
:)
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waysider
Care to share some specifics?
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Ham
I think it's a matter of perspective.
Like the three blind guys trying to describe an elephant..
examining the trunk, one says "an elephant is like a snake"
the other, examing the legs.. "naw.. it's like a tree.."
the other.. I forget.
But I think that's what we have here.
One says, "gawd, he was a drambuie soaked a**hole.."
another: "he was an abusive and demanding sexual pervert"
another: "he was a thief and plagiarist"
and the other: "He sure was a man of gawwd.."
I prefer to look at the big picture. He was a drambuie guzzling, perverted, narcissistic, thieving intellectual pretender who could put on a fair speech.
:)
It's like the four gospels. You know, one record doesn't give ALL of the details..
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Ham
It's the fourth one that "stands out" from the rest. The first three are merely "synoptic" accounts
sowy..
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oldiesman
I shared with the people here that I saw works of the flesh?
I think you may have me mixed up with another poster.
yesno
that's nice to know. I'll keep that in mind for future reference.
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JeffSjo
I hope you're doing o.k. Oldiesman. That answer seems much better.
(Added in editing) If it's true, it's bigger than me and I don't have to defend it, I just stand. Grace and mercy required.
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waysider
So, then, you witnessed these people displaying fruit of the spirit but you are not willing to give examples or specifics?
Forgive me, but that sounds suspiciously like "You'll just have to take my word on this."
Hmmm?--- Now where did I hear that before?
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rascal
Nope oldies. No mistake. Every instance that you (and anyone else for that matter) have related here concerning vp`s supposed *good* fruit, his behavior....that I can remember were not examples of fruit at all, but simply works. Ephesians says ....that won`t save us.
There is a Big difference between the two friend. You saw some of what you consider good works, Others saw bad works...but works are works and fruit is fruit.
The fruit witnessed and documented so far places wierwille squarely in the *flesh* catagory...shrug ...that makes him, his teachings AND his ministry unreliable and untrustworthy....AND the scriptures say he has no inheritance in the kingdom of God...
Are you sure you want to trust someone like him to have an accurate understanding of spiritual matters?
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JeffSjo
Hi Rascal,
Just wondering how you would characterise the usage of "fruit."
I've told you that I consider myself to be fruit. Is that how you mean it?
Or are you talking about the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace.....
(added in editing)
I would like to continue this with you rascal, I just want to be sure that we're trying to discuss the same thing. Just so you know, I share computer time and I'm never sure how much time I may have.
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oldiesman
Rascal, you said that I saw works of the flesh. Now you seem to be changing that to "simply works" and not making any distinction between good works or bad works, i.e. they are all of them works of the flesh whether good or bad.
Also I don't quite understand your distinction between fruit and works and ask for clarification. For instance, how do you know a person has fruit of the spirit, unless their actions accompany that with good works? Is it just a feeling, a look? If fruit is not behavior, what is it?
I know a person has gentleness when they are gentle with me. I know a person has love when they walk in love towards me. I know a person has patience when they are patient with me, etc. To a person who is born again and believes in Jesus, I would equate those actions with "fruit of the spirit".
Conversely, I know a person has hate when they have hatred toward me. They could be born again, but their actions in that instance indicate they are walking by the flesh rather than by the spirit.
So perhaps if you would clarify your usage of "fruit" vs. "works" we could at least be on the same page with our definition of terms, regardless of whether we may agree or disagree. Thanks.
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rascal
Sure oldies....
As far as him being kind to you at one time....loved you or was once gentle...scriptures say that even the very evil can do that to those whom they care about....that is not fruit of the spirit...
Read galations 5 ....THOSE are fruit. Fruit of the spirit and fruit of the flesh....there are two different categories. there are two specific lists that identify whether you are Of the flesh or of the spirit.
Jesus listed the fruit where by we could identify one another. Peace, long suffering, meekness, love, etc.
Ephesians talks about works....the ones that look good, but won`t save us.
What you listed of vp`s behavior so far is a few good works.
We have some good works that you saw....we have lots of bad works that other people saw....
Those don`t condemn him or save him either way......
What DOES identify him as *of the flesh* and consequently according to galatians ... what completely condemns him as a man of the flesh, rather than man of the spirit and having no inheritance in the kingdom of God....was the fruit that HE manifested....not the fruit of the spirit...but the fruit of the flesh...Adultery, drunkeness, lying, lasciviousness....etc
Scriptures condemn him friend, and all of the works that you saw will never make it ok or save him...I am sorry.
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waysider
I heard Ted B^ndy was a real swell fella, too.
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doojable
Neutral questions here:
Is it possible to have love, joy, peace, goodness. meekness... etc. AND to also have committed "acts of the flesh"? (Either before or after having shown these fruit of the spirit)
What makes "love - et al" works of the flesh as opposed to fruit of the spirit?
I'm not arguing here. I do think that these questions are worth considering.
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J0nny Ling0
Oldies. It is a "look". For instance, one day, I saw Craig looking off into the clouds over Camp Gunnison. He had the most peaceful "look" on his face, that I just knew he was manifesting the "fruit of the spirit" known as "peace". Another time, he was explaining to my wife something about his Grandma, and they got into the whole "lineage" thing concerning Craig's family. And, because the whole "family tree thing" can be very confusing, he was very patient with my wife (his long ago friend from Oklahoma), which showed me that Craig was at that moment manifesting the fruit of the spirit known as "long suffering" (patience). BUT, not really.
And on another side of a ridiculous coin, it's very simple, really. All one has to do with judging another person's soul is just "guess" what is going on in their heart in order to determine whether or not that person will die the eternal death or be given entrance into Eternal Life. It doesn't matter that only God knows what is really in the heart of a man or a woman, all we have to do is look at their works, and if bad, and then simply judge them! Yeah, that's the ticket! And then, go around telling everyone that they are in fact going to die "The Death", because you have placed your eternal; death sentence upon them! My God, this is so ridiculous that it is unbelievable. The TRUTH is, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS the motive of a man or woman but God Almighty! Good works in a person's life may bear good fruit! Bad works in a person's life may bear bad fruit! Good works with out the love of God may very well bear some damn fine good looking fruit, but only God will know the motive behind the works. Shoot, there are all kinds of combinations, but God, the Father Of Lights, is the only one who can really judge
Personally, I would rather forgive as Jesus has so obviously told us to do, and leave the HEAVY JUDGING to God Almighty, the ONLY one who can rightfully judge a man or a woman's heart. And if I am wrong for forgiving someone who will be sentenced to die the Second Death, than I would rather err on the side of kindness, compassion, and forgiveness. And don't mistake my saying that for giving the person's actions a "pass". I didn't say give them a pass. If they did wrong, as VPW did in fact do wrong, then their actions should not be "swept under the rug" so to speak. In fact, others should be warned (unless of course the guy is ow dead). But, it is better to forgive and love than it is to hate and be angry over long ago actions by a man who is now dead and not able to come back and apologize.
(it was hard to stay away)
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happyheart
Actually, it depends who the listener is. Some people are able to have a conversation with someone about the twi and not label them bitter. These kind of people have been helpful to me. Like if we discuss what happened at Pearl Harbor, doesn't mean I am bitter against the Japanese. It's just discussing history.
Sometimes I wonder if it's a residual affect from all of the years of leaders accusing us of not "renewing our minds" or "being negative" whenever we tried to have an honest conversation about something.
I'm not bitter, but I am fascinated with why we all said and did such stupid things and thought we were being Godly. It's therapeutic to talk over the "history" of twi.
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Ham
Same could be said for a conscience, for that matter.
But then again.. maybe the old guy was bipolar. The nicest, most tranquil person on the face of the earth, one moment. Then a raging bug-eyed monster the next.
I could see how someone could mistake the "down swings" with some kinda peace or something..
and the manic episodes.. "sheesh. he's valiant for da truth.." "man, what a teaching.."
I think we were taught not to think. If one can't understand or consider what one considers "negative" maybe one cannot make a sound decision regarding it..
Perhaps these kind of dicsussions are just too painful for some people, and they'd rather shut it out.. wake up in twig somewhere in 1972..
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doojable
I think there's a big difference between being angry to the extreme in the present-tense over events of the distant past; and continuing to voice anger that is from the past, but has been dealt with and healed.
In the first case, the angst can grow like a cancer. (Can - not saying it definitely will.)
In the second case it's the re-telling of a story with the emotions being added for emphasis. This would be how someone could empathize with someone relating similar events.
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oldiesman
I certainly do believe this and lack evidence to the contrary. I've seen this over and over in twi and elsewhere in life. One strong example from history, King Solomon, was a holy man of God reputed to be the wisest man in the world. Yet he also was an idolator, baby killer and sex addict.
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Ham
It seems that a lot of us have an on button. It's "just get over it.. sheesh been twenty some years..he's dead, can't do anything about it now.. you're just being bitter.."
I would suggest, if one does not want to hear the elaboration over the past, don't bring it up, or don't try to disannul it. Do it to yourself if you want.. but it usually just hits the on button in others here.. at least that I've observed.
oh.. the few issues I have left are with are still alive.. in a cozy palace, insulated from any kind of confrontation, outside of legal proceedings.
Oh well..
I pity the poor bas*ards.. really. They are worse off than I am. rosie might have more cashola than what she knows what to do with.. but what happens when she's even older than she is now..
can't remember where it's all at
really. Unless she has a team of guards (lawyers), and guards to guard the guards (even more lawyers).. they will bleed her dry..
all the estate will go to pay the legal fees
me? I'll die broke, barring winning the lottery.. I don't have those kind of worries
and donna. when rosie's gone, what's her fate.. next pres of da way? I really don't think so..
I really can't see her having the stamina to go out with a bucket, ammonia, squeege.. and hit the beat, trying to dredge up a few window cleaning jobs for her next meal.. she'd fold inside of a week.
In my opinion.
and harvey.. maybe he could go back playing licks in bars.. but his years of experience in da ministry.. what's that gonna look like on a resume? Ya know.. they'll check out the corporation he claims to be on the board with.. maybe look at the history a little bit..
It was YEARS of USELESS toil.
In my opinion.
And they think they are sitting on a gold mine or something.. wait till the dow goes below 2,000..
don't say "never".. my statistics prof says of other similar matters "if it is POSSIBLE, the odds of it happening is 100%"
See Johnny.. I've "gotten over it"
I've moved on.. made a few friends, gotten a few marketable skills.. though I'll probably have to work till seventy to pay off all the student loans.
but like the salmon, I find myself swimming back up to the the little pond here..
:)
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Ham
so in the end.. he died as a fool.
maybe he wasn't "all he was cracked up to be"..
maybe he didn't have "wisdom like it hath notter been known since the -3000th century"..
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rascal
Dooj, you described how I feel. Just because I am angry, deeply offended over how some imposters masqueraded as ministers destroying lives and families of the innocents that trusted them to be the ministers that they claimed to be........doesn`t mean that I am currently bitter or that it grows.....I am a reasonably happy well adjusted adult. I have managed to shed the dangerous thought patterns that kept me immobilized, and actually managed to accomplish a few worthy goals. Life is very very good these days.
I CAN say, that the horrors of past twi life inspire me to appreciate and treasure the joys and freedom I currently enjoy much more than if I had never suffered.
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