For me, this is a worst case scenario for this situation.
DO WHAT THEY SAY, NOT WHAT THEY DO. The Lord dealt with these issues two thousand years ago and His standards are still the best that I know of.
For me, I really do strive to the truth in anyone's statements, no matter what I think of them. The King Josiah (I believe) died because he didn't listen to Pharoah when Pharoah happened to be speaking the truth.
I've been surprised when a child in a cabinet shop I was working in happened to say, "Why don't you do it like this....."
Not forgiving "CAN" turn to bitternes. Actions "CAN" invalidate the message. Maybe every situation's different.
The sins of the messenger doesn't negate the truth in the message.
Um...YES actually it does. I don`t think VP`s message was *truth* at all. The message of a man if the flesh can not be relied upon as spiritually wholesome. That would be very foolish.
Umm, the messenger was/is Jesus, not VPW. Jesus forgave those who crucified him, and the majority did not apologize nor ask Jesus to forgive them before he did in fact forgive them. A few did, but not all by a long shot. He forgave those who "cast the same into his teeth". That's biblical. I had read and seen that LONG before I ever became involved with The Way. Believe what you want I guess, but thankfully, God and Jesus Christ are far more forgiving than many humans are on this here earth. Once again, glad God and Jesus are the ones in charge. Bitterness eats like a cancer, and the white dove of Holy Spirit has no bitterness...
And according to scripture...theres gonna be folks that claim to know Jesus...Folks who will arrive thinking they have a place in heaven....they will whine that they prophesied in his name and cast devils out....yup yup yup....and THEN Jesus says....that he will tell them to *depart for I knew you not* check it out.. the bible REALLY says he will :)
Sure doesn`t sound like he is into forgiving everybody everything...shrug
I think that you are willing to ignore an awfull lot of scripture in order to back up your pet theory, friend.
I don't care about VP's message. JESUS's message is that we are to love and FORGIVE. Jesus forgave men who had him murdered, who mocked him, who spit in his face, who wrapped a robe on his bloody shoulders and let it dry and then ripped it off of him in agony. He endured a Crown Of Thorns that was pounded into his skull, as well as huge nails pounded through his hands and his feet. And he hung there in agony, humiliated and completely betrayed by his best friends, Peter, James, John, Judas, and all of the rest. And yet he forgave. He forgave those who thought that they knew what they were doing. And, he told us, as in a Commandment that we are to forgive those who "trespass against us". We cannot expect an apology from Dead Men, for they are DEAD. But we who are still living, can forgive those who have trespassed against us. We can be better than those who have passed on and never saw the light on forgiveness, because we are alive and can still decide to make right decisions..
Have any of us gone through this type of humiliation? NO. None of us have. He is the ensample, the template, the one who endured, showing us that we too can endure Life's Persecutions, Life's pitfalls, traps and snares. He it is who said "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". Oh, VP knew what he was doing, just as Pilate knew what he was doing. They both thought that they were in the right, doing what was "really okay". But they were wrong. And Jesus our lord asked The Lord God Almighty to forgive them, for they were in THE DARK Man! They didn't REALLY know what the hell they were doing!
What about when he (Jesus) tells folks to *depart for he knew them not*? Is that forgiving? Is that compassionate?? Is that forgiving those whom trespassed against him???
What about THOSE footsteps of Jesus, my friend??? I suppose THAT particular passage of scripture is unimportant because it doesn`t support your brand of religion.
well.. "forgive them brother.. take da suffering.."
I don't know if you stopped to think.. they don't WANT your or my forgiveness. Probably never will..
ok.. letsa take you up on the kind "exhortation.". Let them come to my door. I won't turn them away, and I'll say, face to face.. "I forgive you for being the lying, scumsucking weasel dirtbags who let down your bretheren and let them get pillaged, sold stolen merchandise, plundered, raped and worse, just to be filled with a piece of bread.."
the only thing I'd add:
"if I can possibly have anything to do with it, you are not going to do it to anyone else"
then again, I dunno. Maybe they committed the "unforgivable"..
"naw.. they SPEAK IN TONGUES.."
I don't buy the s.i.t. proof and all.. anybody can babble incoherently given the proper motivation. Some can even do it without the right kind of motivation, all by themselves..
ok.. letsa take you up on the kind "exhortation.". Let them come to my door. I won't turn them away, and I'll say, face to face.. "I forgive you for being the lying, scumsucking weasels who let down your bretheren and let them get pillaged, sold stolen merchandise, plundered, raped and worse, just to be filled with a piece of bread.."
They can't come to your door. They are DEAD. So, waddya gonna do? There is only one thing you can do, if you want to emulate Jesus. Forgive 'em...
What about when he (Jesus) tells folks to *depart for he knew them not*? Is that forgiving? Is that compassionate?? Is that forgiving those whom trespassed against him???
What about THOSE footsteps of Jesus, my friend??? I suppose THAT particular passage of scripture is unimportant because it doesn`t support your brand of religion.
He told them, present tense, to "depart from him, etc". While they were alive, they had a chance to repent. Maybe some did, most likely some didn't. So, what happens to them later? Dunno. God's business I guess. But, you cannot dismiss Jesus' plea from the cross to forgive them. If Jesus did the Father's Will all of the time, then there must be something here where God's forgiveness and Jesus judgment do not run at odds. The recurring theme of "forgiving our enemies" runs through out the NT. Even Romans 12 says;
"If thine enemy hunger, feed him. If he thirsts, give him to drink. For in so doing, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." (paraphrased from memory)
Being kind and forgiving to those who persecute us has marvelous impact. And so, even though this scripture admonishes us in how to deal with "enemies in the present", it can only be that our enemies who are DEAD should be forgiven. Leave 'em where they lay! They'll have to deal with The Almighty His own dang self, and that in itself is way too heavy to even think of!
And, I am sure that you would rather have me judging you for things you did to me as opposed to vice versa, for, I would forgive your trespasses against me, although I suppose you would not forgive me. You'd probably just want to cut my nuts off. But, that's the difference between me and you, Rascal...
This is a statement from a women's magazine I remember from some years back: Forgiving someone who wronged you is a favor you do for yourself. As long as you hold bitterness against a person (or organization, I add), they hold power over you.
Certain people, in the Way and out, wronged me in incredibly hurtful ways ... but by forgiving them, I don't allow bitterness to rob me of the joys of today....I refuse to give them that kind of power over me.
Do I think they were wrong? YES! Am I going to dwell on it to my hurt? To the best of my ability, no. IMHO, that's why Jesus Christ told us to forgive .. he knew what NOT forgiving would do to us because he held the standard of love for us and knew the heart of a Holy God.
Jonny, PLEASE...you just butchered the entire passage in the scripture.... In the scripture reference being discussed......in the scenario that that Jesus told them to depart....the men were already dead trying to get into heaven. No chance to repent...
He didn`t say *I forgive you anyway come on in*...He told them to get the heck OUT!!! They thought that they knew him...THEY arrived assuming they had access...THEY had cast out demons and taught in his name....it didn`t impress HIM.....he told em LEAVE!!!!
PLEASE...if you are gonna tell folks to walk in Jesus` footsteps.......don`t chose just the few that suit you personally. If you want to exhort us to walk as Jesus...in all honesty, for goodness sakes please LOOK at who Jesus was and what he told us to do ...rather than use a few passages to try to enforce the behavior we desire or wish to add authority to our argument.
Depart from this discussion if you must ... but know that your finger pointed in condemnation accompanied with accusations of bitterness directed at folks because they don`t buy the vp myth any more certainly doesn`t impress me as very *Jesus* like.
Agreed Ham. That speaking in tongues is proof ...is yet I believe another twi myth. The bible is VERY clear about what constitutes *proof*
Jesus said was that we would recognize one another by our *fruit*.
Shoot, it isn`t about how much scripture we spouted or the thousands that sat at our feet as we taught, nor how much we witnessed....or how much money we gave or how impressive our physical stuff was....in short, all signes in twi that we were spiritual)....
Our leaders did not manifest the fruit of the spirit that would indicate that they were of Jesus ... the conclusion seems pretty obvious to me.
Our leaders did not manifest the fruit of the spirit
Well I have to vehemenently disagree with that one. I witnessed fruit of the spirit from most all the leaders I saw; Vic, Craig, Ermal, Uncle Harry, Don, Howard, Vince F., Ralph D., Bo Reahard, on and on down the line...
Jonny, I can just FEEL the loooove of Jesus simply oozing from your post, as you walk in those footsteps my brother :)
Come on....is that really Jesus like, to accuse someone of being bitter for simply holding leaders accountable biblically, spiritually and morally?
Oldies...at least what I remember that you have shared here, any way....were works...works of the flesh (be they good or bad) and really, according to scriptures....they really don`t mean squat when it comes to spirituality.
If you view the bible as a source of accuracy, fruit and works are very different :)
I maintain, that it would be very foolish to trust a man of the flesh to appropriately understand or teach on spiritual matters.
In my opinion, the greatest damage of twi contamination is THINKING that we know what the scriptures say concerning any given subject.
Sometimes, I truly wonder how many of us, like the folks in the scenario Jesus gave....will arrive...expecting entrance...breathless in anticipation...assuming that we will have access to the kingdome of heaven...assuming because of the way we were taught....that because we spoke in tongues...we are born again...etc
How many of us will be told to depart .... I have to wonder if it is about formulas and recitation of verses, and our flesh and blood works....if that passage is true....How many of us will have to leave because we never really knew him.
I am serious... examination of fruit...not works is the only way to get an idea of who we are, and where we are spiritually.
Naw not God, oldies.....I was basing my assumptions on what you yourself have told me that you saw....and I have to say, that without exception, everything you have shared with us so far appears to have been flesh and blood works....shrug. So far, I am not impressed.
Teaching scripture?? Studying?? Amassing riches and a following?? Come on...isn`t that what false prophets do? :)
When you can show me instances of peace, long suffering, meekness, compassion, mercy. etc...the scriptural measuring stick by which we are to identify people....THEN I might consider your point worthy of consideration.
You know, the bible talks about it being EASY to be nice to the people you like...no doubt many of the men you mentioned. were real sweeties to their friends and those whom they wished to impress... I have no doubt a couple of them were even earnest in their attempts to walk as Godly men like so many of us, but were decieved as were we all...(I think it was wrong for you to place them in the same catagory as vic n lcm)..but even so....scripture say even the most evil people can accomplish that....
Our leaders lust for flesh, their documented cruelty, their unconscionable actions place them in the flesh catagory, and all of their pretty works are nothing but tinkling cymbles
Works are works...whether they be good or bad, they are no indication of a persons spirituality.
why is it when people discuss the history of the cult twi and it's leader's personalities, attitudes, and works, they are labeled as bitter and unforgiving? just because I talk about something negative, and even if I'm still angry about it, doesn't mean I'm bitter.
and btw, some of us aren't followers of Jesus, so telling us we want to forgive everyone because he did is a ridiculous commandment. he did ask God to forgive many wrongdoers, but were those individual cases, or is "forgive everyone for doing evil to you" a blanket commandment? I can get to a point where I accept the things that happened and that either 1. the person did evil out of misplaced loyalty and is capable of better actions, or 2. the person neither was nor is capable of doing spiritually genuine good (those people who do what rascal points out are works of the flesh while they are rotten inside.) I can accept and move on without "forgiving" them. forgiveness I reserve for those who realize their error and work to change their wrongs, not for people who use others and throw them away. as far as I'm concerned, they're spiritual trash, but really only God knows who is wheat and who is chaff and he's big enough to forgive someone who deserves it even if I can't, so I'm not going to worry about not forgiving the leadership who spiritually (and sometimes literally) raped their followers in twi or those people who directly had a hand in destroying my life and never made amends for it because they think they did the right thing.
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But it can certainly cast some doubt on it. Especially if you consider that the "message" was concocted by the "messenger"...
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T-Bone
Well, I beg to differ...what a "messenger" does may actually nullify the message:
"Actions speak louder than words…" - Mark Twain
"Who you are speaks so loudly I cannot hear what you say." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that. Mark 7:13 NASB
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JeffSjo
For me, this is a worst case scenario for this situation.
DO WHAT THEY SAY, NOT WHAT THEY DO. The Lord dealt with these issues two thousand years ago and His standards are still the best that I know of.
For me, I really do strive to the truth in anyone's statements, no matter what I think of them. The King Josiah (I believe) died because he didn't listen to Pharoah when Pharoah happened to be speaking the truth.
I've been surprised when a child in a cabinet shop I was working in happened to say, "Why don't you do it like this....."
Not forgiving "CAN" turn to bitternes. Actions "CAN" invalidate the message. Maybe every situation's different.
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excathedra
does anyone really know who has forgiven whom ? i don't and i don't think it's my business nor do i think anyone owes me an explanation about it
i also get tired of hearing teachings
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rascal
Um...YES actually it does. I don`t think VP`s message was *truth* at all. The message of a man if the flesh can not be relied upon as spiritually wholesome. That would be very foolish.
And according to scripture...theres gonna be folks that claim to know Jesus...Folks who will arrive thinking they have a place in heaven....they will whine that they prophesied in his name and cast devils out....yup yup yup....and THEN Jesus says....that he will tell them to *depart for I knew you not* check it out.. the bible REALLY says he will :)
Sure doesn`t sound like he is into forgiving everybody everything...shrug
I think that you are willing to ignore an awfull lot of scripture in order to back up your pet theory, friend.
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J0nny Ling0
I don't care about VP's message. JESUS's message is that we are to love and FORGIVE. Jesus forgave men who had him murdered, who mocked him, who spit in his face, who wrapped a robe on his bloody shoulders and let it dry and then ripped it off of him in agony. He endured a Crown Of Thorns that was pounded into his skull, as well as huge nails pounded through his hands and his feet. And he hung there in agony, humiliated and completely betrayed by his best friends, Peter, James, John, Judas, and all of the rest. And yet he forgave. He forgave those who thought that they knew what they were doing. And, he told us, as in a Commandment that we are to forgive those who "trespass against us". We cannot expect an apology from Dead Men, for they are DEAD. But we who are still living, can forgive those who have trespassed against us. We can be better than those who have passed on and never saw the light on forgiveness, because we are alive and can still decide to make right decisions..
Have any of us gone through this type of humiliation? NO. None of us have. He is the ensample, the template, the one who endured, showing us that we too can endure Life's Persecutions, Life's pitfalls, traps and snares. He it is who said "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". Oh, VP knew what he was doing, just as Pilate knew what he was doing. They both thought that they were in the right, doing what was "really okay". But they were wrong. And Jesus our lord asked The Lord God Almighty to forgive them, for they were in THE DARK Man! They didn't REALLY know what the hell they were doing!
And so, we should follow in Jesus' footsteps...
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rascal
What about when he (Jesus) tells folks to *depart for he knew them not*? Is that forgiving? Is that compassionate?? Is that forgiving those whom trespassed against him???
What about THOSE footsteps of Jesus, my friend??? I suppose THAT particular passage of scripture is unimportant because it doesn`t support your brand of religion.
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Ham
well.. "forgive them brother.. take da suffering.."
I don't know if you stopped to think.. they don't WANT your or my forgiveness. Probably never will..
ok.. letsa take you up on the kind "exhortation.". Let them come to my door. I won't turn them away, and I'll say, face to face.. "I forgive you for being the lying, scumsucking weasel dirtbags who let down your bretheren and let them get pillaged, sold stolen merchandise, plundered, raped and worse, just to be filled with a piece of bread.."
the only thing I'd add:
"if I can possibly have anything to do with it, you are not going to do it to anyone else"
then again, I dunno. Maybe they committed the "unforgivable"..
"naw.. they SPEAK IN TONGUES.."
I don't buy the s.i.t. proof and all.. anybody can babble incoherently given the proper motivation. Some can even do it without the right kind of motivation, all by themselves..
:)
edited to add "dirtbags". sounded right..
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J0nny Ling0
He told them, present tense, to "depart from him, etc". While they were alive, they had a chance to repent. Maybe some did, most likely some didn't. So, what happens to them later? Dunno. God's business I guess. But, you cannot dismiss Jesus' plea from the cross to forgive them. If Jesus did the Father's Will all of the time, then there must be something here where God's forgiveness and Jesus judgment do not run at odds. The recurring theme of "forgiving our enemies" runs through out the NT. Even Romans 12 says;
"If thine enemy hunger, feed him. If he thirsts, give him to drink. For in so doing, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." (paraphrased from memory)
Being kind and forgiving to those who persecute us has marvelous impact. And so, even though this scripture admonishes us in how to deal with "enemies in the present", it can only be that our enemies who are DEAD should be forgiven. Leave 'em where they lay! They'll have to deal with The Almighty His own dang self, and that in itself is way too heavy to even think of!
And, I am sure that you would rather have me judging you for things you did to me as opposed to vice versa, for, I would forgive your trespasses against me, although I suppose you would not forgive me. You'd probably just want to cut my nuts off. But, that's the difference between me and you, Rascal...
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excathedra
ohmygod, you all should join a church, not a discussion forum
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J0nny Ling0
I'm done here. If I come back in two years, I'll probably see the same old same old all over again...
:yawn1:
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DogLover
This is a statement from a women's magazine I remember from some years back: Forgiving someone who wronged you is a favor you do for yourself. As long as you hold bitterness against a person (or organization, I add), they hold power over you.
Certain people, in the Way and out, wronged me in incredibly hurtful ways ... but by forgiving them, I don't allow bitterness to rob me of the joys of today....I refuse to give them that kind of power over me.
Do I think they were wrong? YES! Am I going to dwell on it to my hurt? To the best of my ability, no. IMHO, that's why Jesus Christ told us to forgive .. he knew what NOT forgiving would do to us because he held the standard of love for us and knew the heart of a Holy God.
DogLover
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Ham
umm.. the ones I'm speaking of are still alive.. at least they look that way.. maybe dead inside, who knows..
ya know, it's impossible to "forgive" a dead man.. understand him maybe, why he did what he did.. try to forget- but "forgive"?
see.. there is nothing I can personally think of to make the situation "right" between you and him.
there is still a chance for the living. At least in this particular life..
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rascal
Jonny, PLEASE...you just butchered the entire passage in the scripture.... In the scripture reference being discussed......in the scenario that that Jesus told them to depart....the men were already dead trying to get into heaven. No chance to repent...
He didn`t say *I forgive you anyway come on in*...He told them to get the heck OUT!!! They thought that they knew him...THEY arrived assuming they had access...THEY had cast out demons and taught in his name....it didn`t impress HIM.....he told em LEAVE!!!!
PLEASE...if you are gonna tell folks to walk in Jesus` footsteps.......don`t chose just the few that suit you personally. If you want to exhort us to walk as Jesus...in all honesty, for goodness sakes please LOOK at who Jesus was and what he told us to do ...rather than use a few passages to try to enforce the behavior we desire or wish to add authority to our argument.
Depart from this discussion if you must ... but know that your finger pointed in condemnation accompanied with accusations of bitterness directed at folks because they don`t buy the vp myth any more certainly doesn`t impress me as very *Jesus* like.
Agreed Ham. That speaking in tongues is proof ...is yet I believe another twi myth. The bible is VERY clear about what constitutes *proof*
Jesus said was that we would recognize one another by our *fruit*.
Shoot, it isn`t about how much scripture we spouted or the thousands that sat at our feet as we taught, nor how much we witnessed....or how much money we gave or how impressive our physical stuff was....in short, all signes in twi that we were spiritual)....
Our leaders did not manifest the fruit of the spirit that would indicate that they were of Jesus ... the conclusion seems pretty obvious to me.
Edited: my apologies for unnecessary ugliness :)
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J0nny Ling0
You a real piece of work Rascal. Enjoy your bitter pill I guess...
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oldiesman
Well I have to vehemenently disagree with that one. I witnessed fruit of the spirit from most all the leaders I saw; Vic, Craig, Ermal, Uncle Harry, Don, Howard, Vince F., Ralph D., Bo Reahard, on and on down the line...
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rascal
Jonny, I can just FEEL the loooove of Jesus simply oozing from your post, as you walk in those footsteps my brother :)
Come on....is that really Jesus like, to accuse someone of being bitter for simply holding leaders accountable biblically, spiritually and morally?
Oldies...at least what I remember that you have shared here, any way....were works...works of the flesh (be they good or bad) and really, according to scriptures....they really don`t mean squat when it comes to spirituality.
If you view the bible as a source of accuracy, fruit and works are very different :)
I maintain, that it would be very foolish to trust a man of the flesh to appropriately understand or teach on spiritual matters.
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oldiesman
You're telling me what *I* saw? How can you do that? Are you God Almighty?
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rascal
In my opinion, the greatest damage of twi contamination is THINKING that we know what the scriptures say concerning any given subject.
Sometimes, I truly wonder how many of us, like the folks in the scenario Jesus gave....will arrive...expecting entrance...breathless in anticipation...assuming that we will have access to the kingdome of heaven...assuming because of the way we were taught....that because we spoke in tongues...we are born again...etc
How many of us will be told to depart .... I have to wonder if it is about formulas and recitation of verses, and our flesh and blood works....if that passage is true....How many of us will have to leave because we never really knew him.
I am serious... examination of fruit...not works is the only way to get an idea of who we are, and where we are spiritually.
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oldiesman
Not so... actually I didn't see these *works of the flesh* some posters refer to.
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rascal
Naw not God, oldies.....I was basing my assumptions on what you yourself have told me that you saw....and I have to say, that without exception, everything you have shared with us so far appears to have been flesh and blood works....shrug. So far, I am not impressed.
Teaching scripture?? Studying?? Amassing riches and a following?? Come on...isn`t that what false prophets do? :)
When you can show me instances of peace, long suffering, meekness, compassion, mercy. etc...the scriptural measuring stick by which we are to identify people....THEN I might consider your point worthy of consideration.
You know, the bible talks about it being EASY to be nice to the people you like...no doubt many of the men you mentioned. were real sweeties to their friends and those whom they wished to impress... I have no doubt a couple of them were even earnest in their attempts to walk as Godly men like so many of us, but were decieved as were we all...(I think it was wrong for you to place them in the same catagory as vic n lcm)..but even so....scripture say even the most evil people can accomplish that....
Our leaders lust for flesh, their documented cruelty, their unconscionable actions place them in the flesh catagory, and all of their pretty works are nothing but tinkling cymbles
Works are works...whether they be good or bad, they are no indication of a persons spirituality.
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potato
why is it when people discuss the history of the cult twi and it's leader's personalities, attitudes, and works, they are labeled as bitter and unforgiving? just because I talk about something negative, and even if I'm still angry about it, doesn't mean I'm bitter.
and btw, some of us aren't followers of Jesus, so telling us we want to forgive everyone because he did is a ridiculous commandment. he did ask God to forgive many wrongdoers, but were those individual cases, or is "forgive everyone for doing evil to you" a blanket commandment? I can get to a point where I accept the things that happened and that either 1. the person did evil out of misplaced loyalty and is capable of better actions, or 2. the person neither was nor is capable of doing spiritually genuine good (those people who do what rascal points out are works of the flesh while they are rotten inside.) I can accept and move on without "forgiving" them. forgiveness I reserve for those who realize their error and work to change their wrongs, not for people who use others and throw them away. as far as I'm concerned, they're spiritual trash, but really only God knows who is wheat and who is chaff and he's big enough to forgive someone who deserves it even if I can't, so I'm not going to worry about not forgiving the leadership who spiritually (and sometimes literally) raped their followers in twi or those people who directly had a hand in destroying my life and never made amends for it because they think they did the right thing.
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rascal
Wow, well said potato. I ought to erase everything I wrote and just let your post stand as the gem it is.
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JeffSjo
Dear Excathedra,
Personally, I hope that I'm not wearing you out. I'd rather see you blessed and refreshed.
Hi Sweetpotato, it's been a while.
THIS DANCE SURE SEEMS LIVELY TODAY
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