Who are you to say others are bitter and ....ed off because they speak up? Psychic are we?
If you don't understand who TWI is or what they taught as being evil. . . . and you still adhere to what it was they taught as Christianity. . . I can see your point.
I believe they are exactly who Jesus, Paul, Jude, and John spoke of. . . .who the OT warned us about. Read the words written. . . really read what was said about them.
It isn't a little "Oh by the way". . . it is powerful and pointed.
There would be some that pervert the gospel of God. Know exactly who it is you are advocating forgivness for and then get back to me.
You are not to go near them . . . listen to them. . . BUT remove yourselves FROM them. . . Paul WARNED others NIGHT and DAY with tears!!!!
Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, the woman caught in adultery, the woman at the well, all kinds of sinners. NO WHERE in the bible does it say to forgive false teachers.
They are an evil influence and they wax worse and worse. They corrupt--they pollute. . . .
If I were to only use what is written about them in a single post. . . would you then call me bitter? They are not my words? But they are harsh and they are pointed and they are definite in meaning.
Read them yourselves and then call me bitter.
What I find amazing is that outrage and disgust over what they taught and the evil of their actions could ever diminish. All you need do is look around at the destruction wrought in the lives of those who post here. Should renew your heart against their heresy every single day.
Just one more thing Linda. Jesus didn't tell someone they were of their father the devil, for the sake of others.
He spoke to them as God BTW. When Paul spoke of false teachers was he speaking as the Son of God?
It is NOT about us. It is about God, His glory, His Rightness, His power, His goodness. He came to destroy the works of the devil. It is not about our sense of freedom, it is about freedom from sin. . . we are empowered in Christ. Stepping out of a fight against wrong sure would be alot less burdensome.
He loved them . . . in that He came and died for the sins of the world. Should they have repented. . . they would have been forgiven. That is the condition! Look at Paul.
No one is seeking revenge. . . . no one is hating. Calling them what they are is NOT hate. . . exposing what they did is NOT revenge.
What would be hateful is to let others stumble into that cult without warning exactly who they are and what they teach.
You are going to call them evil. . . while forgiving them? Okay, but how? If a wolf comes in and eats the sheep. . .are you going to pat the wolf on the head and say "It's okay I forgive you?" Let him go His merry way to eat more sheep? After all, you forgave him, pardoned him, absolved him. . . . that is what TRUE forgiveness does. How are you going to warn the next sheep herder?
True forgiveness is divine and it is rare in we humans. Nearly impossible when one really considers it. We don't honor God with our lips. . . when we forgive it is from the heart. Don't mistake forgiveness with denial. If you forgive them. . . you speak of it no more. . . . it is gone. You no longer warn of the evil. . . . it is forgiven.
What they did was not only an offense against you, it was an offense against God.
To be forgiven by God they must repent.
Read Revelation. . . the warnings to the churches. No where does it say "good for you. . . you forgave them"
It says . . . you tolerated them. . . judgment has come upon you. . . . you didn't remove them from you.
Not "gee, you let it go to be empowered". That is Jesus speaking as well. Spiritual darkness resulting from false teaching. Severe chastening unless the true believers repented of tolerating them and believing their lies.
Are these the revelations you think we do not know geisha?
they read full of angry frustrating anxious emotions.
not a bad thing if you enjoy them I guess.
I just do not think they would really help anyone believe God is a loving God who cares for us. I do not think fear motivates those to seek a LORD it sounds as if he is so lacking the understanding of what sin can do to a person.
he really isnt he came to save them and gave his life in the loving of us in spite of us all.
o your enemys are aware you hate them, they know what you believe they did wrong by the bible standard you spew in one corner of your mouth yet reject in your actions and deeds.
I think the same God who created mankind parted a sea and had a virgin become pregnate can handle his job just fine . I trust HIM to be quite the winner in every situation I am not so anxious to think if I do not complain and yell and hate at this person one last time and warn them of the evils of the world the plan will fail.
but I do think if I can care for them and forgive maybe just maybe they will see some of the love god has given me in life and the He and Jesus can handle any problems we manage to have. The Love of God and Jesus is what changes lifes .
When the son came back home He was welcomed with opened arms and rewarded seems to be theme that worked many times .
We do not fight flesh and blood it is a war indeed between God and Satan and as a soldier I chose which army I can play in and I chose LOVE everytime. It isnt about people geisha we do not fight flesh and blood we fight attitudes of hate and unforgivness and bitterness which lead to other horrible actions that hurt people. the only behaviour I can control is my own and that begins with my attitude towards others .
You have told me I hate now several times. . . Don't worry, I forgive you. Really loving BTW.
God is Holy. We have had this discussion before. It is not about us being "okay" before Him as we are.
The bible does not omit the phrase "Fear of God" . . . . true respect for His power and Glory as He is. . .
It is not about us. . . it is about Him. His glory.
We are forgiven when we repent and accept Jesus as Lord. Not when we lead people from Him. Not when we deny Him.
It is a great offense to do this. . . we do not tolerate it. We do not wink at it. . . we do not say it is okay.
VP raped women. . . had them drugged. . . abused them sexually. . . commited serial adultery. . . he destroyed many people Pond. . . not just physically. . . there are so many people running around believing they are saved because of VP's unique "gospel" message.
VP denied the very Lord that bought him. . . He took many down the same path. Led people into great sin.
He is not forgiven. Those who do the same must repent(change) to be forgiven. If they don't hear that it is wrong. . . if they continue to justify it by the Word of God. . . how will they repent?
By you telling them it is okay. . . God loves them ust the way they are.
Yet I am hateful for speaking up. I am wrong for not glossing over this. I am unloving by not accepting it? I am bitter.
We are at enmity with these people if we truly belong to God, but we can pray for them and tell them. That is what the bible says. . . snatch them from the FIRE.
You can call it emotion, call it anxious, call it whatever you want. Hey, VP called His actions "Spiritual".
I just find it interesting that I am the bad one.
They stoned the prophets because they didn't like the message, guess it wasn't loving enough for them?
The bible never speaks of judgment, sin, evil or hell? We don't either? Too unloving?
I know you don't like to hear these things. . . we have had this go around before, but I gotta ask you. . . if we don't really understand how bad we are before a Holy God, how do we ever truly repent?
Who is our substitute? Why do we need one? What is it about God that makes Him not abide sin? Why does He chasten us AFTER we are saved? What is the goal?
God is not a warm and fuzzy teddy bear. . . HE is a Holy God that loves us with a perfect love. He convicts us of our sins and commands us to turn away from them. He is patient and kind and good to us, merciful and gracious, longsuffering toward us as we do this. . . but, HE expects us to do it.
If we truly love we will tell people about how loving and holy God is. . . . why we need a savior. That may involve some talk of sin.
Jesus proclaimed blessings to His true believers and woe to the world. . . unloving?
What you think really doesn't matter. . . I am more interested in what God actually says. The truth of the matter, not someone's idea of God, but who He really is.
When it comes to false teachers. . . . they are so unique the bible calls them natural brute beasts. Rather unloving sounding. . .
This is a discussion forum not a private conversation between geisha and myself, I do think you take on individuals and blame them for sin.
I think we have come full circle here .
So to sumise what your saying is tell them they are wrong complain and yell and insult.
does it change anything for them or you?
maybe fuel some more angry feelings that allow you to believe you must be a better disciple.
the folks with Jesus wanted to know who was the best as well and his reply was the one who serves the others by example of washing the feet etc...
what is YOUR solution other than complaining and who did what I see no solution in your posts.
the bible is full of knowledge indeed.. and Jesus is LORD and God is a mighty God what is your point?
excuse me if it about well they sinned I do not at least not that bad anyway.
good luck with that.
Each person will stand before Jesus at the bema and i guess if your going to tell Him well I tried LORD i complained all the time and I know they sinned and I warned them and I never forgave them, your reward will be as He will determine.
I just do not think it is any news flash to Jesus on who is doing what at any given time, I believe He is fully aware and engaged in my life and others! and I believe He took the cross with JOY JOY i believe JOY is a good emotion we can all have knowing how much He loves us. we are to think good and loving thoughts not evil about one another.
see the bible is a happy story of God loving His children not a take to each other and kill one another story.
imo.
but to each his own go and be what you need to be in life we all reap what we sow basicly now and later.
Who are you to say others are bitter and ....ed off because they speak up? Psychic are we?
Please show me where I said that of anyone but myself. I can save you the trouble. I didn't. I also said speaking up is good and that one can forive and still speak up.
No, I'm not psychic, and I'm not interested in a pi$$ing match.
I read as far as I've quoted here and then I stopped. I try to be very reasonable and considerate of others' viewpoints when I post here, especially in "About the Way." To have my words twisted and thrown back at me doesn't put me in the Christmas mood, so I'm done.
Have a merry Christmas. Forgive or don't. 'Tis your choice. I only tried to share what's worked for me. Nowhere did I accuse anyone of anything or tell them what to do. If you want to interpret my words that way, have at it. I'm done.
Please show me where I said that of anyone but myself. I can save you the trouble. I didn't. I also said speaking up is good and that one can forive and still speak up.
No, I'm not psychic, and I'm not interested in a pi$$ing match.
I read as far as I've quoted here and then I stopped. I try to be very reasonable and considerate of others' viewpoints when I post here, especially in "About the Way." To have my words twisted and thrown back at me doesn't put me in the Christmas mood, so I'm done.
Have a merry Christmas. Forgive or don't. 'Tis your choice. I only tried to share what's worked for me. Nowhere did I accuse anyone of anything or tell them what to do. If you want to interpret my words that way, have at it. I'm done.
I take it your done :) and so was I until I saw your post. Just to let you know, I really respect what you have to say. . . I don't read everyone, I read you though.
What I saw and what you said must have been two differing things. So, I hope you will forgive me? :) Now, don't tell me you don't know how. . . I hear you have some practice!!
It sounded like you were implying it was said that we are to hate our enemies. My bad if you were not directing that at me.
Let's meet up in politics--we can have some fun there. . . we are both as liberal as they come. . . I think. I am at least. . . and happy to admit it. I also have some great recipes. . .
On this topic. . . we will not agree, but that does not mean I don't respect you. I like the glimpse of your heart I often see.
Merry Christmas. Hubby and I are going to a women's prison this Christmas. . . there is a little party. . . believe it or not. . . many of those prisoners are amazing people. Truly wonderful. Sometimes it is heartbreaking, but always rewarding.
openly acknowledging that the things some people did to us and the policies of twi were/are WRONG changed a lot of things for me.
for one thing, it freed me from them. it freed me from the insidious seed of guilt they'd planted about things like the lockbox, like never making their stupid ministry look bad, like obeying my husband even when he's wrong or leadership even when they were wrong. it may come across as complaining and bitterness to advocates of "forgive and forget", but it really isn't. it's just me being guilt-free and open about the experiences of 2 decades of my life and how I feel about the things that were done to me and about how I feel about the people who did them and how I feel about the organization that systemized abuse as a way to control even what we thought about.
...half the time I worry I am not reading it correctly myself.
Not to worry, it's a worthy endeavor you pursue! - Merry Christmas, all!
Excellentdiscussion and plenty of food for thought on all fronts, it seems.
I tie forgiveness into Jesus's rendering of the Old Testament laws into the two "great" ones - to love God (with my whole heart) and others (as myself).
When asked who are the "others" the answer switches to define who is the "lover", a true lover as it were. In the parable it's the one who did the lovin', who helped the person in need.
Basically Jesus teaches there I think - worry less about who to love and more about doing. Love everyone, be the "lover".
Inevitably that parable won't fit every situation, there's going to be people and circumstance that won't warrant my active love it would seem - but to treat another as I would like to be treated always works, general "rule of thumb". Making my purpose to be the lover in every situation I can works, all the time.
Applying that to forgiveness I can concentrate on understanding others, trying to anyway, and finding a way to close the gap on what I or another may lack to come to forgiveness and bringing it to them. Treated the way I would want to be treated I'd want understanding and an opportunity to right the wrong. Not all rights can be wronged though, and while I might not deserve it I may want it, need it. Will it be given, can it? Should it? Good questions.
I go back to the parable - those things in my path, my grasp, I'll simply work through with the example of mercy, grace and forgiveness that I see God extends and Jesus exemplifies. The process of thinking, praying and striving to understand throughout all of life's affairs is always ongoing, I think.
Fascinating summation Pond. Guess you must be right. . . blows the whole point of Greasespot. . . to tell the other side of the story.
So glad the bible is silent on the topic as well. Jesus was silent. . . Paul, John, Jude, the watchmen who blow the whistle. . . all complainers.
Brute beasts and all the other pejorative used in the bible to describe them. . . hurling insults I guess.
Just as long as it is not offensive cause it is all about lovey dovey. . happy thoughts and good feelings. . . right?
I hope some day you actually understand what joy of the Lord means. . . might just surprize you.
Good post Geisha,
When I think of "The joy of the Lord" I think of Caleb and his family standing over the giants' dead carcasses and singing praises to the Lord for the victory. Or the prophetess Deborah singin praise to the Lord after the Lord trounced the enemies as Barak fought them. (As an interesting side note what the Cannanites were doing to the Israelite women wasn't that much different than what Wierwille did. At least the Cannanites didn't do it in the Lord's name!)
IMO what TWI did was to harness these emotions and scriptures to fight honest and good people to the point where they lost everything. The same goes for my former splinter group. When these things are harnessed by any religious group they usually lead to some kind of deluded and destructive force. Historically, the crusades seem to fit too.
When to fight and when to forgive is one of the things the the Lord Jesus Christ had to confront his own disciples onn. Once he told them that they didn't even know which spirit that they were of. At another point he told his disciples not to fight, but told Pilate that if his kingdom were of this world they would fight.
I think we are talking about the applying of these things lately on this thread. If I were still a member of my splinter group I would allow a twisted bastard with sociopathic characteristics to tell me who to hate. Wierwille did the same thing. Their judgements are written before hand in black and white for those of us who believe the scriptures and considering the issues I like how Geisha is handling them.
For those of you who don't wish to consider how the scriptural, moral and/or ethical issues apply to TWI I certainly bear you no ill will.
I will apologize in advance and hope that no-one takes this too personally, but honestly, all the back and forth on the hundreds of posts about what "the word" says and what Jesus meant, and that forgiveness is serious stuff, and this is punctuated, and that is work not fruit, and ya-da-ya-da-ya-da is really giving me the creeps. To me, its all that doctrine-jargon-rationalization-making the Bible say what you want it to say, that was the essence of TWI.
I understand that many of you hold on to the Bible and its study even after the Way experience, and I really do respect that--its just that all of this combat using chapter and verse and parables and such just strikes me as a bunch of same ol', same ol' nonsense. Personally, I don't really care what the Bible says.
And then for people to actually get worked up about what another person promotes as the true meaning of "God's Word"---well,
first, the moment anyone goes forth confidently declaring that their interpretation is the right one, well, they lose credibility, completely, in my eyes--that's the same ego-maniacal .... propelled by VPW==I have no use for it. Who REALLY knows what it ALL means? NO ONE, and to me, that is the question and answer that saves us, after all.
Second, to respond defensively and fight back with scripture of his or her own, that strikes me as continuing on with the same Way personality that many members developed (ie, I always felt that twi was aggressive in its teaching and promotion of its doctrine).
So it gives me the creeps, and I sense that some posters have not shed the indoctrination (whether it be the information we received or the behavioral expectations imposed upon us). The tone of this board feels like a bunch of twi members witnessing to each other, just like we used to witness to others when we were fully "in" the group.
Or maybe I am misinterpreting and just feeling jumpy with all the wayspeak in this thread, who knows--that is quite possible.
As for forgiveness, I am still working on forgiving myself for being so easily duped and manipulated--and I have been out since 1981! Rapists, con artists and sociopaths can be found everywhere on this planet--that is nothing new and just because they surfaced in twi doesn't make them any more or less evil than the rapists, sociopaths and con artists in other venues--they all prey on our vulnerabilities. I still can't wrap my head around why I fell for it--I am not being hard on myself, I am just unable to grasp it quite yet.
I am angered by twi, and as I read more about what others went through, I become disgusted and feel a little scared, in that those experiences could have happened to me. I feel horrible for the folks in the WACO disaster, and feel more empathy than the average person because that could have been me--as the 30 year anniversary of Jonestown has come and gone this year, I have felt real dread and grief for those people and those poor little children, mainly because that could have been me. If you listen to the Jonestown "death tape" (Jones and his people during the poisoning--widely available on the internet) be prepared to hear a horrific experience that goes without saying, but also, you will hear members stand up and refer to Jones, and their group and their cause with similar phrases, devotion and cult speak that we used to use or hear at ROA or other similar events. Now THAT is creepy!
Mostly, I feel very grateful that I got out without inordinate harm--I know others were not so lucky as I, but that is not to say I was not harmed--I definitely was harmed--twi took my mind away from me---that creeps me out the most.
Just my .02 -- consider it for what it is worth to you
Certainly didn't mean to make you sick. Glad you have risen above whatever. . .
I hardly post on the Way threads anymore. . . . but this one irked me a bit.
If someone is going to admonish to do something using Jesus as a reason and it somehow justifys the absolute cruelty of TWI and the pain and destruction it caused.
I might just take exception. Then again, I might not . . . .
You make a powerful point. . . . you don't CARE what the bible thinks. . . Yet somehow, you have a pretty darn good moral compass.
Ask any atheist or pagan or agnostic . . . they will have a handle on it. . . . ought to make a Christian pay attention.
I think every post on here is valid. Know why? Because each and every person is a unique individual. Mushy, I know, but ... I have not walked in your (everybody collectively on here) shoes and you have not walked in mine (everybody collectively on here).
Life is fragile.....people are fragile. Hearts, lives, thoughts.....are fragile. The flesh of such tears easily. Yes, tears as in crying and tears as in ripping. On account of that, each has their own journey. Journey meaning exit from TWI or whutevuh. Their shoes not mine. My shoes not theirs.
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geisha779
Who are you to say others are bitter and ....ed off because they speak up? Psychic are we?
If you don't understand who TWI is or what they taught as being evil. . . . and you still adhere to what it was they taught as Christianity. . . I can see your point.
I believe they are exactly who Jesus, Paul, Jude, and John spoke of. . . .who the OT warned us about. Read the words written. . . really read what was said about them.
It isn't a little "Oh by the way". . . it is powerful and pointed.
There would be some that pervert the gospel of God. Know exactly who it is you are advocating forgivness for and then get back to me.
You are not to go near them . . . listen to them. . . BUT remove yourselves FROM them. . . Paul WARNED others NIGHT and DAY with tears!!!!
Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, the woman caught in adultery, the woman at the well, all kinds of sinners. NO WHERE in the bible does it say to forgive false teachers.
They are an evil influence and they wax worse and worse. They corrupt--they pollute. . . .
If I were to only use what is written about them in a single post. . . would you then call me bitter? They are not my words? But they are harsh and they are pointed and they are definite in meaning.
Read them yourselves and then call me bitter.
What I find amazing is that outrage and disgust over what they taught and the evil of their actions could ever diminish. All you need do is look around at the destruction wrought in the lives of those who post here. Should renew your heart against their heresy every single day.
People who love God abhor evil. Hate it.
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geisha779
Just one more thing Linda. Jesus didn't tell someone they were of their father the devil, for the sake of others.
He spoke to them as God BTW. When Paul spoke of false teachers was he speaking as the Son of God?
It is NOT about us. It is about God, His glory, His Rightness, His power, His goodness. He came to destroy the works of the devil. It is not about our sense of freedom, it is about freedom from sin. . . we are empowered in Christ. Stepping out of a fight against wrong sure would be alot less burdensome.
He loved them . . . in that He came and died for the sins of the world. Should they have repented. . . they would have been forgiven. That is the condition! Look at Paul.
No one is seeking revenge. . . . no one is hating. Calling them what they are is NOT hate. . . exposing what they did is NOT revenge.
What would be hateful is to let others stumble into that cult without warning exactly who they are and what they teach.
You are going to call them evil. . . while forgiving them? Okay, but how? If a wolf comes in and eats the sheep. . .are you going to pat the wolf on the head and say "It's okay I forgive you?" Let him go His merry way to eat more sheep? After all, you forgave him, pardoned him, absolved him. . . . that is what TRUE forgiveness does. How are you going to warn the next sheep herder?
True forgiveness is divine and it is rare in we humans. Nearly impossible when one really considers it. We don't honor God with our lips. . . when we forgive it is from the heart. Don't mistake forgiveness with denial. If you forgive them. . . you speak of it no more. . . . it is gone. You no longer warn of the evil. . . . it is forgiven.
What they did was not only an offense against you, it was an offense against God.
To be forgiven by God they must repent.
Read Revelation. . . the warnings to the churches. No where does it say "good for you. . . you forgave them"
It says . . . you tolerated them. . . judgment has come upon you. . . . you didn't remove them from you.
Not "gee, you let it go to be empowered". That is Jesus speaking as well. Spiritual darkness resulting from false teaching. Severe chastening unless the true believers repented of tolerating them and believing their lies.
Pretty bitter?
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pond
Jesus calls us to peace and love and forgivness.
the world i can be an evil place .
bad things happen even to good people.
Are these the revelations you think we do not know geisha?
they read full of angry frustrating anxious emotions.
not a bad thing if you enjoy them I guess.
I just do not think they would really help anyone believe God is a loving God who cares for us. I do not think fear motivates those to seek a LORD it sounds as if he is so lacking the understanding of what sin can do to a person.
he really isnt he came to save them and gave his life in the loving of us in spite of us all.
o your enemys are aware you hate them, they know what you believe they did wrong by the bible standard you spew in one corner of your mouth yet reject in your actions and deeds.
I think the same God who created mankind parted a sea and had a virgin become pregnate can handle his job just fine . I trust HIM to be quite the winner in every situation I am not so anxious to think if I do not complain and yell and hate at this person one last time and warn them of the evils of the world the plan will fail.
but I do think if I can care for them and forgive maybe just maybe they will see some of the love god has given me in life and the He and Jesus can handle any problems we manage to have. The Love of God and Jesus is what changes lifes .
When the son came back home He was welcomed with opened arms and rewarded seems to be theme that worked many times .
We do not fight flesh and blood it is a war indeed between God and Satan and as a soldier I chose which army I can play in and I chose LOVE everytime. It isnt about people geisha we do not fight flesh and blood we fight attitudes of hate and unforgivness and bitterness which lead to other horrible actions that hurt people. the only behaviour I can control is my own and that begins with my attitude towards others .
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geisha779
Pond,
You have told me I hate now several times. . . Don't worry, I forgive you. Really loving BTW.
God is Holy. We have had this discussion before. It is not about us being "okay" before Him as we are.
The bible does not omit the phrase "Fear of God" . . . . true respect for His power and Glory as He is. . .
It is not about us. . . it is about Him. His glory.
We are forgiven when we repent and accept Jesus as Lord. Not when we lead people from Him. Not when we deny Him.
It is a great offense to do this. . . we do not tolerate it. We do not wink at it. . . we do not say it is okay.
VP raped women. . . had them drugged. . . abused them sexually. . . commited serial adultery. . . he destroyed many people Pond. . . not just physically. . . there are so many people running around believing they are saved because of VP's unique "gospel" message.
VP denied the very Lord that bought him. . . He took many down the same path. Led people into great sin.
He is not forgiven. Those who do the same must repent(change) to be forgiven. If they don't hear that it is wrong. . . if they continue to justify it by the Word of God. . . how will they repent?
By you telling them it is okay. . . God loves them ust the way they are.
Yet I am hateful for speaking up. I am wrong for not glossing over this. I am unloving by not accepting it? I am bitter.
We are at enmity with these people if we truly belong to God, but we can pray for them and tell them. That is what the bible says. . . snatch them from the FIRE.
You can call it emotion, call it anxious, call it whatever you want. Hey, VP called His actions "Spiritual".
I just find it interesting that I am the bad one.
They stoned the prophets because they didn't like the message, guess it wasn't loving enough for them?
The bible never speaks of judgment, sin, evil or hell? We don't either? Too unloving?
I know you don't like to hear these things. . . we have had this go around before, but I gotta ask you. . . if we don't really understand how bad we are before a Holy God, how do we ever truly repent?
Who is our substitute? Why do we need one? What is it about God that makes Him not abide sin? Why does He chasten us AFTER we are saved? What is the goal?
God is not a warm and fuzzy teddy bear. . . HE is a Holy God that loves us with a perfect love. He convicts us of our sins and commands us to turn away from them. He is patient and kind and good to us, merciful and gracious, longsuffering toward us as we do this. . . but, HE expects us to do it.
If we truly love we will tell people about how loving and holy God is. . . . why we need a savior. That may involve some talk of sin.
Jesus proclaimed blessings to His true believers and woe to the world. . . unloving?
What you think really doesn't matter. . . I am more interested in what God actually says. The truth of the matter, not someone's idea of God, but who He really is.
When it comes to false teachers. . . . they are so unique the bible calls them natural brute beasts. Rather unloving sounding. . .
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pond
This is a discussion forum not a private conversation between geisha and myself, I do think you take on individuals and blame them for sin.
I think we have come full circle here .
So to sumise what your saying is tell them they are wrong complain and yell and insult.
does it change anything for them or you?
maybe fuel some more angry feelings that allow you to believe you must be a better disciple.
the folks with Jesus wanted to know who was the best as well and his reply was the one who serves the others by example of washing the feet etc...
what is YOUR solution other than complaining and who did what I see no solution in your posts.
the bible is full of knowledge indeed.. and Jesus is LORD and God is a mighty God what is your point?
excuse me if it about well they sinned I do not at least not that bad anyway.
good luck with that.
Each person will stand before Jesus at the bema and i guess if your going to tell Him well I tried LORD i complained all the time and I know they sinned and I warned them and I never forgave them, your reward will be as He will determine.
I just do not think it is any news flash to Jesus on who is doing what at any given time, I believe He is fully aware and engaged in my life and others! and I believe He took the cross with JOY JOY i believe JOY is a good emotion we can all have knowing how much He loves us. we are to think good and loving thoughts not evil about one another.
see the bible is a happy story of God loving His children not a take to each other and kill one another story.
imo.
but to each his own go and be what you need to be in life we all reap what we sow basicly now and later.
peace.
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geisha779
Fascinating summation Pond. Guess you must be right. . . blows the whole point of Greasespot. . . to tell the other side of the story.
So glad the bible is silent on the topic as well. Jesus was silent. . . Paul, John, Jude, the watchmen who blow the whistle. . . all complainers.
Brute beasts and all the other pejorative used in the bible to describe them. . . hurling insults I guess.
Just as long as it is not offensive cause it is all about lovey dovey. . happy thoughts and good feelings. . . right?
I hope some day you actually understand what joy of the Lord means. . . might just surprize you.
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Linda Z
Please show me where I said that of anyone but myself. I can save you the trouble. I didn't. I also said speaking up is good and that one can forive and still speak up.
No, I'm not psychic, and I'm not interested in a pi$$ing match.
I read as far as I've quoted here and then I stopped. I try to be very reasonable and considerate of others' viewpoints when I post here, especially in "About the Way." To have my words twisted and thrown back at me doesn't put me in the Christmas mood, so I'm done.
Have a merry Christmas. Forgive or don't. 'Tis your choice. I only tried to share what's worked for me. Nowhere did I accuse anyone of anything or tell them what to do. If you want to interpret my words that way, have at it. I'm done.
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excathedra
this is getting too doctrinally and whatever for me
i liked
and there was something about if you love god, you abhor evil. was that it? i guess i abhor myself ha
jesus christ is my savior and saved me to the uttermost or however that saying goes
i don't really care about much else
i know i'm not a bible believing fan sorry
when it comes to forgiveness, i'm just trying to get along in this life and i'll take what i get in the next
i know i'm not explaining myself well, but i see a lot of your points, but i feel I would have to be god or chirst to really speak with authority
love,
ex
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geisha779
I take it your done :) and so was I until I saw your post. Just to let you know, I really respect what you have to say. . . I don't read everyone, I read you though.
What I saw and what you said must have been two differing things. So, I hope you will forgive me? :) Now, don't tell me you don't know how. . . I hear you have some practice!!
It sounded like you were implying it was said that we are to hate our enemies. My bad if you were not directing that at me.
Let's meet up in politics--we can have some fun there. . . we are both as liberal as they come. . . I think. I am at least. . . and happy to admit it. I also have some great recipes. . .
On this topic. . . we will not agree, but that does not mean I don't respect you. I like the glimpse of your heart I often see.
Merry Christmas. Hubby and I are going to a women's prison this Christmas. . . there is a little party. . . believe it or not. . . many of those prisoners are amazing people. Truly wonderful. Sometimes it is heartbreaking, but always rewarding.
Take Care,
Geisha
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potato
actually it does, and A LOT.
openly acknowledging that the things some people did to us and the policies of twi were/are WRONG changed a lot of things for me.
for one thing, it freed me from them. it freed me from the insidious seed of guilt they'd planted about things like the lockbox, like never making their stupid ministry look bad, like obeying my husband even when he's wrong or leadership even when they were wrong. it may come across as complaining and bitterness to advocates of "forgive and forget", but it really isn't. it's just me being guilt-free and open about the experiences of 2 decades of my life and how I feel about the things that were done to me and about how I feel about the people who did them and how I feel about the organization that systemized abuse as a way to control even what we thought about.
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socks
...half the time I worry I am not reading it correctly myself.
Not to worry, it's a worthy endeavor you pursue! - Merry Christmas, all!
Excellent discussion and plenty of food for thought on all fronts, it seems.
I tie forgiveness into Jesus's rendering of the Old Testament laws into the two "great" ones - to love God (with my whole heart) and others (as myself).
When asked who are the "others" the answer switches to define who is the "lover", a true lover as it were. In the parable it's the one who did the lovin', who helped the person in need.
Basically Jesus teaches there I think - worry less about who to love and more about doing. Love everyone, be the "lover".
Inevitably that parable won't fit every situation, there's going to be people and circumstance that won't warrant my active love it would seem - but to treat another as I would like to be treated always works, general "rule of thumb". Making my purpose to be the lover in every situation I can works, all the time.
Applying that to forgiveness I can concentrate on understanding others, trying to anyway, and finding a way to close the gap on what I or another may lack to come to forgiveness and bringing it to them. Treated the way I would want to be treated I'd want understanding and an opportunity to right the wrong. Not all rights can be wronged though, and while I might not deserve it I may want it, need it. Will it be given, can it? Should it? Good questions.
I go back to the parable - those things in my path, my grasp, I'll simply work through with the example of mercy, grace and forgiveness that I see God extends and Jesus exemplifies. The process of thinking, praying and striving to understand throughout all of life's affairs is always ongoing, I think.
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JeffSjo
Good post Geisha,
When I think of "The joy of the Lord" I think of Caleb and his family standing over the giants' dead carcasses and singing praises to the Lord for the victory. Or the prophetess Deborah singin praise to the Lord after the Lord trounced the enemies as Barak fought them. (As an interesting side note what the Cannanites were doing to the Israelite women wasn't that much different than what Wierwille did. At least the Cannanites didn't do it in the Lord's name!)
IMO what TWI did was to harness these emotions and scriptures to fight honest and good people to the point where they lost everything. The same goes for my former splinter group. When these things are harnessed by any religious group they usually lead to some kind of deluded and destructive force. Historically, the crusades seem to fit too.
When to fight and when to forgive is one of the things the the Lord Jesus Christ had to confront his own disciples onn. Once he told them that they didn't even know which spirit that they were of. At another point he told his disciples not to fight, but told Pilate that if his kingdom were of this world they would fight.
I think we are talking about the applying of these things lately on this thread. If I were still a member of my splinter group I would allow a twisted bastard with sociopathic characteristics to tell me who to hate. Wierwille did the same thing. Their judgements are written before hand in black and white for those of us who believe the scriptures and considering the issues I like how Geisha is handling them.
For those of you who don't wish to consider how the scriptural, moral and/or ethical issues apply to TWI I certainly bear you no ill will.
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jrglade
I will apologize in advance and hope that no-one takes this too personally, but honestly, all the back and forth on the hundreds of posts about what "the word" says and what Jesus meant, and that forgiveness is serious stuff, and this is punctuated, and that is work not fruit, and ya-da-ya-da-ya-da is really giving me the creeps. To me, its all that doctrine-jargon-rationalization-making the Bible say what you want it to say, that was the essence of TWI.
I understand that many of you hold on to the Bible and its study even after the Way experience, and I really do respect that--its just that all of this combat using chapter and verse and parables and such just strikes me as a bunch of same ol', same ol' nonsense. Personally, I don't really care what the Bible says.
And then for people to actually get worked up about what another person promotes as the true meaning of "God's Word"---well,
first, the moment anyone goes forth confidently declaring that their interpretation is the right one, well, they lose credibility, completely, in my eyes--that's the same ego-maniacal .... propelled by VPW==I have no use for it. Who REALLY knows what it ALL means? NO ONE, and to me, that is the question and answer that saves us, after all.
Second, to respond defensively and fight back with scripture of his or her own, that strikes me as continuing on with the same Way personality that many members developed (ie, I always felt that twi was aggressive in its teaching and promotion of its doctrine).
So it gives me the creeps, and I sense that some posters have not shed the indoctrination (whether it be the information we received or the behavioral expectations imposed upon us). The tone of this board feels like a bunch of twi members witnessing to each other, just like we used to witness to others when we were fully "in" the group.
Or maybe I am misinterpreting and just feeling jumpy with all the wayspeak in this thread, who knows--that is quite possible.
As for forgiveness, I am still working on forgiving myself for being so easily duped and manipulated--and I have been out since 1981! Rapists, con artists and sociopaths can be found everywhere on this planet--that is nothing new and just because they surfaced in twi doesn't make them any more or less evil than the rapists, sociopaths and con artists in other venues--they all prey on our vulnerabilities. I still can't wrap my head around why I fell for it--I am not being hard on myself, I am just unable to grasp it quite yet.
I am angered by twi, and as I read more about what others went through, I become disgusted and feel a little scared, in that those experiences could have happened to me. I feel horrible for the folks in the WACO disaster, and feel more empathy than the average person because that could have been me--as the 30 year anniversary of Jonestown has come and gone this year, I have felt real dread and grief for those people and those poor little children, mainly because that could have been me. If you listen to the Jonestown "death tape" (Jones and his people during the poisoning--widely available on the internet) be prepared to hear a horrific experience that goes without saying, but also, you will hear members stand up and refer to Jones, and their group and their cause with similar phrases, devotion and cult speak that we used to use or hear at ROA or other similar events. Now THAT is creepy!
Mostly, I feel very grateful that I got out without inordinate harm--I know others were not so lucky as I, but that is not to say I was not harmed--I definitely was harmed--twi took my mind away from me---that creeps me out the most.
Just my .02 -- consider it for what it is worth to you
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waysider
Powerful post, jr
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geisha779
Certainly didn't mean to make you sick. Glad you have risen above whatever. . .
I hardly post on the Way threads anymore. . . . but this one irked me a bit.
If someone is going to admonish to do something using Jesus as a reason and it somehow justifys the absolute cruelty of TWI and the pain and destruction it caused.
I might just take exception. Then again, I might not . . . .
You make a powerful point. . . . you don't CARE what the bible thinks. . . Yet somehow, you have a pretty darn good moral compass.
Ask any atheist or pagan or agnostic . . . they will have a handle on it. . . . ought to make a Christian pay attention.
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kimberly
I think every post on here is valid. Know why? Because each and every person is a unique individual. Mushy, I know, but ... I have not walked in your (everybody collectively on here) shoes and you have not walked in mine (everybody collectively on here).
Life is fragile.....people are fragile. Hearts, lives, thoughts.....are fragile. The flesh of such tears easily. Yes, tears as in crying and tears as in ripping. On account of that, each has their own journey. Journey meaning exit from TWI or whutevuh. Their shoes not mine. My shoes not theirs.
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JeffSjo
Dear jrglade,
For what it's worth to you sometimes I'm a little amazed that I desire to see the truth of my experiences and hold on to the scriptures.....
but I really do see the validity of your perspective and see your post as good and powerful as well.
JEFF
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jrglade
Thanks for your responses y'all---I just re-read my post-- kinda heavy -- sorry about that.
I just don't understand why I am so engrossed in my Way Days (daze) all of a sudden after all this time, and here I am yacking like I just escaped.
Thank you for your patience and tolerance.....
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Shellon
I think about forgiveness ALOT and someone here at greasespot finally put it into perspective for me.
"Not forgiving is like you drinking the poison and hoping they die"
I knew when I read that in her note to me that I'd be ok.
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