Received a nice note on forgiving from Watchman Nee, "The Lord my Portion."
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you. Matthew 5.44.
The aforesaid actions are taken because there is love. If we are fretful, we will not be able to pray for our persecutors. The love in view here is neither due to liking nor to familiarity, rather it is because of mercy. We should never shut up a heart of mercy.
By acting according to verse 44 we may be sons of the heavenly Father, since we have exhibited His nature. Verse 45 (“That ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good . . .”) shows us how liberal is the way God treats mankind. Were He like us, none would ever be saved. Only God can forget man’s evil. Man does not possess the ability to forget evil; he does not have absolute forgetfulness.
Two things I pray for pretty regularly, that the Lord keeps the root of bitterness out of my heart and never shuts up my bowels of compassion.
Some years ago a rottweiler attacked our golden retriever puppy at a kennel. The worthless animal climbed out of its run and into Molly’s and nearly killed her. He left her with dozens of gashes and a dangling ear. I wrote a letter to the dog’s owner, urging him to put the dog to sleep.
But when I showed the letter to the kennel owner, she begged me to reconsider. “What that dog did was horrible, but I’m still training him. I’m not finished with him yet.”
God would say the same about the rottweiler who attacked you. “What he did was unthinkable, unacceptable, inexcusable, but I’m not finished yet.”
Your enemies still figure into God’s plan. Their pulse is proof: God hasn’t given up on them. They may be out of God’s will, but not out of his reach. You honor God when you see them, not as his failures, but as his projects.
God occupies the only seat on the supreme court of heaven. He wears the robe and refuses to share the gavel. For this reason Paul wrote, “Don’t insist on getting even; that’s not for you to do. ‘I’ll do the judging,’ says God. ‘I’ll take care of it’ ” (Rom. 12:19 MSG).
Revenge removes God from the equation. Vigilantes displace and replace God. “I’m not sure you can handle this one, Lord. You may punish too little or too slowly. I’ll take this matter into my hands, thank you.”
Is this what you want to say? Jesus didn’t. No one had a clearer sense of right and wrong than the perfect Son of God. Yet, “when he suffered, he didn’t make any threats but left everything to the one who judges fairly” (1 Pet. 2:23 GOD’S WORD).
Only God assesses accurate judgments. We impose punishments too slight or severe. God dispenses perfect justice. Vengeance is his job. Leave your enemies in God’s hands. You’re not endorsing their misbehavior when you do. You can hate what someone did without letting hatred consume you. Forgiveness is not excusing.
Nor is forgiveness pretending. David didn’t gloss over or sidestep Saul’s sin. He addressed it directly. He didn’t avoid the issue, but he did avoid Saul.
Do the same. Give grace, but, if need be, keep your distance. You can forgive the abusive husband without living with him. Be quick to give mercy to the immoral pastor, but be slow to give him a pulpit. Society can dispense grace and prison terms at the same time. Offer the child molester a second chance, but keep him off the playgrounds.
Forgiveness is not foolishness.
Forgiveness is, at its core, choosing to see your offender with different eyes. You don’t excuse him, endorse her, or embrace them. You just route thoughts about them through heaven. You see your enemy as God’s child and revenge as God’s job.
By the way, how can we grace-recipients do anything less? Dare we ask God for grace when we refuse to give it? This is a huge issue in Scripture. Jesus was tough on sinners who refused to forgive other sinners. In the final sum, we give grace because we’ve been given grace.
Max Lucado is a special thing to me. When I first was introduced to him, after twi of course, I was grieved that I hadn't "met" him earlier. His stuff hits my heart. Hope you enjoy this. Thanks for reading it.
been thinking about forgiveness, just because people seem to crop up on a regular basis with the commandment to forgive and it's always for our own good, blah blah blah.
I looked up "forgive" in the dictionary:
1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b: to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon <forgive one's enemies>
in applying this to twi or to leaders of twi who committed crimes, I have this to say:
1 a: people who've been hurt will feel resentment and may feel that they are owed an apology (claim to requital). actively giving up those feelings do not happen in a vacuum. it takes a lot of processing time to come to terms with how a victim feels after being used and abused. no one has the right to tell them when they should forgive, or give up on the feeling they are owed an apology, or even in the case of a real crime, when they should give up on the hope of justice.
1 b: in a family, it makes sense to grant relief from payment of debt when a family member has a hard time paying, so that family relationships aren't damaged. in some cases it makes good business sense as well. twi may not technically be in debt to any of us, but they did make a promise to steward god's people and did not do that. they didn't pay their debt. personally I still consider them accountable for this, although anyone who wants can forgive that debt. I think in the end, it's actually god's debt alone to forgive.
2: see 1 a.
I think it's possible to move on with your life and accept that your claim to requital or an unpaid debt will be ignored by the other party, without letting them off the hook for it: in other words, you don't have to "forgive" to move on, and you don't have to forget, either.
I've moved on. twi is no longer part of my life and I'm actively recovering from the damage done during my 2 decade involvement with them. I will never get to a point in my life, however, where twi wasn't part of my past or the harm done by power-hungry leaders never took place. it will always be there. my hope of a better future is not dependent on forgiving them. I consider them accountable for their actions and always will.
I'm glad Kit brought this thread back, partly because she is one person...to those who are familiar with her posts over all the years...who can talk about the subject without giving the impression that she is telling anyone they have to forgive. She has not only acknowledged the hurts many have suffered, but expressed her anger, all while keeping her heart on God.
Potato is right; no person should tell another that they have to forgive for their hurt; that has to be the decision of the person who suffered the hurt.
Regarding forgiveness, I think if a kid is getting harrassed and bullied by another kid, and then musters the courage to fight back and punch the bullies lights out, whereby the kid is never bothered by the bully again is something to rejoice in. Or when the woman who is raped, testifies against her assailant in court, whereby he is sentenced and publically outed and put away for 15 years, that would be a triumph and justice.
If absolute forgiveness was always the right thing to do, there would be no jails. If forgiveness is something God Almighty always directed, then why were there wars in the OT, and why did they stone people? There is something to be said for standing up for one's self and sanding up to evil doers. Forgiveness in degrees is subjective, is not for others to dictate it's definition, and cannot be legislated with a broad paintbrush.
Forgiveness in degrees is subjective, is not for others to dictate it's definition, and cannot be legislated with a broad paintbrush.
</snip>
I think this is perhaps what bothers me the most, is that the concept of "forgiveness" has become a religious philosophy with many definitions, rules, and consequences. that's why I went back to the dictionary, and realized that in its simplest and most straightforward form, the choice to not forgive is not harmful. it is not synonymous with seeking revenge.
Are forgiveness and fighting back mutually exclusive?
Of course, the latter can lead to the former I guess. In H.S. I was getting so irritated once by this guy sitting right behind me, I turned around suddenly and whacked him in the chest, shocking him and everyone else. I was probably the last person anyone would have thought would do that). The teacher, who had seen everything, said something short to the other guy, and not me, and otherwise did nothing. Within the next few weeks we (the guy I whacked and I) had become friends.
It doesn't matter if VP knew his sins or not, just like Jesus forgave those who sinned against him, yet didn't even know they had sinned against him. Yet Jesus, in his AGONY, forgave them...
Not according to what's written on the page. He (Jesus) didn't forgive them. He (Jesus) asked his father to forgive them. Furthermore, this asking of "forgiveness" was not recorded in any of the other three accounts. Doesn't that sort of take away from the "established" doctrine of 2 accounts?
Furthermore, the idea that he forgave them directly contradicts his earlier teaching of forgiving after being asked to forgive and repenting, which in turn contradicts his other teachings on the same subject.
The reality is that Jesus doesn't teach forgiveness the same way twice, except in a "Lord's Prayer" sense and doesn't practice any form of his ideas about forgiveness at times where he could provide clarity by using his personal life as a guide. For example, He didn't tell Thomas he forgave him for not believing when Thomas obviously saw the error of his ways. He admonished Thomas for having to see before he believed. I believe that would have been a good teaching "moment" on forgiveness.
There is a full gamut of how forgiveness is interpreted and practiced. It is definitely not a "one size fits all" sort of thing.
Are forgiveness and fighting back mutually exclusive?
Of course, the latter can lead to the former I guess. In H.S. I was getting so irritated once by this guy sitting right behind me, I turned around suddenly and whacked him in the chest, shocking him and everyone else. I was probably the last person anyone would have thought would do that). The teacher, who had seen everything, said something short to the other guy, and not me, and otherwise did nothing. Within the next few weeks we (the guy I whacked and I) had become friends.
I think this is the crux of the matter. Over and over in my head I have asked how far all this would have gone if people would have simply put their foot down at the first signs of inappropriate behavior?
I had personally experienced bad behavior escalate when it wasn't nipped in the bud and I didn't want to live like that, so I took steps to nip it in the bud when I saw it.
It is what it is and nothing is going to change the past. An apology might bring meaning to the past, or might bring closure to the past. I think that is what people are looking for.
To me the subject of forgiveness is simple (note I didn't say easy). When I forgive someone, it releases me--from my anger and bitterness and hurt feelings. It doesn't release that person from God's judgment. That part is between the person and God.
I hear a lot of people talking about not forgiving until someone asks for forgiveness. I refuse to give someone that much power over me. I don't want what I do with my heart and mind to depend on someone else's actions. I have the power to forgive or not. Waiting for an apology just holds my heart captive all that much longer.
To me the subject of forgiveness is simple (note I didn't say easy). When I forgive someone, it releases me--from my anger and bitterness and hurt feelings. It doesn't release that person from God's judgment. That part is between the person and God.
I hear a lot of people talking about not forgiving until someone asks for forgiveness. I refuse to give someone that much power over me. I don't want what I do with my heart and mind to depend on someone else's actions. I have the power to forgive or not. Waiting for an apology just holds my heart captive all that much longer.
Linda, it seems a bit like a chicken and egg problem... which comes first, processing the anger, bitterness and hurt feelings, or the "forgiving"? does "forgiving" make the bad feelings go away? or does dealing with the hurt bring you to a point of "forgiveness"?
I have to admit, the symantic gymnastics that religious philosophers go through over the concept of forgiveness often seem designed to make people feel guilty who decide not to be held captive to the bondage of being required to "forgive" a wrong-doer. those who hurt DON'T have power over me anymore. now it's MY choice. I no longer HAVE to forgive them.
The problem with not forgiving is that it is the reason people become bitter and have a hard heart, to carry the burden of not being able to trust and all the other personal problems a person gets from unforgiving makes for a very difficult and often painful relationship with the Lord Jesus christ.
Jesus commands us to love one another and it isnt about reconciliation he never went back and made good buddies with his enemys, it is about moving on in your own life and relationship with God, knowing how much Jesus forgave YOU, we can forgive others.
moving on isnt about fixing the other person problem and /or making the wrong right(so many times this is not even possible like if somone has died or the hurt is so deep it can not be repaired imediately) but we can get to the point in our own head that God loves us so much He sent His son for us.
and Jesus sent the comfort of the holy spirit within.
it is all about trusting God not so much one another we are to LOVE one another while trusting God . Jesus didnt trust men he knew what was in them, yet he still commands we Love and forgive as He does each of us.
When folks are angry and bitter and full of vengenace it hurts them as people... that is why Jesus says to leave the vengence up to HIM and just love one another.
reconciliation is NOT a requirement of forgivness.
For me, one of the things that actually seems to help people is spelling out exactly what the promises are that concern the Lord taking vengence are. If someone trusts in the Lord, then I feel that may comfort them.
Simply telling them that the spirit is the comforter may only lead them into feeling somehow worse if it is not followed up by something more substantial.
In TWI the manifestations were taught as a way to receive comfort, but IMO people that were actually being led into actually speaking directly to the abusers and the abused were ruthlessly forced to shut up or get out. And IMO the manifestations became for the most part as worthless as lukewarm milk toast. BLECCHH
This happened because stupid and wicked men were committed to continuing their wicked, corrupt and stinky actions and either fooled themselves or others into thinking they had the right to crush honest people ruthlessly.
Yeah, I believe that the Lord will avenge these things with many stripes. But I was actually taught in my splinter group that they believe that Christ will raise up Wierwille the MOG and send Wierwille to gather together his spiritual children. The viewponit that I believed until I came here was I believe deluded and downright unscriptural because Wierwille DID THINGS that make it clear to me that he deserves the very worst of the Lord's revenge.
These things may comfort the wounded IMO if they trust in the Lord like I do.
(added in editing)
The parts about the "Wierwille will gather us together for Christ" doctrine that my former splinter group taught is that from the beginning it was a hierarchtical thing. Wierwille was the MOG and my splinter group leader is of course the faithfull son of Wierwille. IMO he was just as twisted as Wierwille based on what I've heard at the Greasespot. Time's up, bye for now.
Hi again! I was able to come right back after another spot opened up immediately.
It just blows my mind how many of Wierwille's twisted methods a man can absorb if they worshipped Wierwille and turned AWAY FROM THE SCRIPTURES. I know that for many here the scriptures are not the answer, but I gotta go with it and call it like I see them. I hope that they know I'm not saying these things to put them down.
Once I got here I recognized "All women belong to the king" as a reference to Wierwille Because the twisted bastard that runs my former splinter group holds this Wierwillian doctrine himself. That guy was very adept at figuratively castrating every other man in the group. When I wouldn't cave, he led my wife into hating me, and eventually moved her and my son out of my house behind my back. Their cover story for these events seem just as transparent to me as TWI propoganda does now.
And that is just one similarity amoung many.
You can tell me to forgive, but suffering through these things almost completely crushed me. The comfort I've received from the scriptures is that the Lord himself knows all their dishonest, twisted, vile, and destructive actions better than I do AND HATES THEM TOO!!!
Serial adultery, rape, sexual abuse, twisting scripture, teaching false doctrines, lying, stealing, using money entrusted for God--for lust and pleasure, vanity, pride, the break-up of families, marriages, manipulation, using the most vile language while teaching about a Holy God. . . . the list is endless.
Oh I forgot. . . .all IN the NAME of a Holy God
What kind of moral relativity forgives this behavior with no repentance and change.
Isn't this actually what God condemns??
Forgive, knock yourself out with it. It is still evil behavior--and yes--I am making a judgement call here. I feel like I am on pretty solid ground.
My forgiveness will come when I see twi financially bankrupt. They will have more forgiveness than they can handle when that day comes. Until then, they can suck it.
tell us what you think (((((( geisha and opera ))))))) loveyou
i'm going to say something strange -- i don't think about who i do or not forgive too much
i just (just, just, just) thank god he loves me so much and he gave me christ
i've felt like that since i was a very little girl. WEIRD -- i shouldn't have to be forgiven for something i didn't do (as a little toddler), but yet guilt followed me -- and still does -- through my life
i wonder what that's all about and if that has anything to do with "all have fallen short or something" -- but i still don't really get a 3-or-4 year old's sin nature -- but i'm still thankful ??????
dear god, i hope this gets me a seat in the happy place :)
Just saw this thread come up - wow, shouldn't it be in Soap Opera?? I read the first and last half dozen pages and found this:
and the best thing that happens - is that you never really think about the offending party anymore! :)
peace,
jen-o
Don't you? What if someone's behavior has caused you immense pain or difficulty? Your child got killed by a drunk driver? Your house got burned down by an arsonist, and all your sentimental things with it. Someone attacked you and caused you to be permanently injured - paralyzed or to lose a limb. Forgiveness won't bring the dead child back or build the house or replace the family heirloom or repair the paralyzed or missing limb.
You can forgive, but you still have to deal with the effects of someone's behavior. Therefore to some extent you have to think about the offending party. You just don't think about them bitterly.
If you can think about them with compassion, that has to be a bonus.
For me, this may fit into the "forgive myself" category, but it definitely is something that I consider.
When I was a part of my splinter group I knew that much of the teaching was b.s.. Thinking back, I don't believe that I ever bought the twist on the "gathering together" doctrine that I was taught, but I wonder sometimes whether or not I was bold enough in fighting the lies that were being promoted all around me.
Looking back, some things that I know now I was ignorant of then.
Some things I held back on because my judgement was at the time that I should pick my fights wisely if I actually wanted to do people some good.
Then on the other hand I wonder if I could have been bolder, maybe some of my former friends wouldn't be still caught up in my former splinter group's b.s.. I know first hand that if any of them resist that my former splinter group leader will manipulate everything that he can to make sure that anyone he decides to kick out is completely ruined before he lets them go.
It's not easy to look at these things, but for today it seems good that I'm not swallowed up by doubt and sorrow.
Linda, it seems a bit like a chicken and egg problem... which comes first, processing the anger, bitterness and hurt feelings, or the "forgiving"? does "forgiving" make the bad feelings go away? or does dealing with the hurt bring you to a point of "forgiveness"?
I have to admit, the symantic gymnastics that religious philosophers go through over the concept of forgiveness often seem designed to make people feel guilty who decide not to be held captive to the bondage of being required to "forgive" a wrong-doer. those who hurt DON'T have power over me anymore. now it's MY choice. I no longer HAVE to forgive them.
I can only speak for myself, and I'm not telling anyone else that they have to forgive. That's each person's decision. For me, I processed the anger, bitterness, and hurt feelings for a while, and then I decided that was too much baggage to carry around and I didn't want it, so I decided to forgive what people in twi had done to me.
I didn't decide to forgive out of guilt. I did it for me. I figure God is more than capable of any revenge that might be due anyone else.
You're right, it's your choice, absolutely. And I don't feel any more righteous than anyone else for the choice I've made. It's simply what works for me.
Serial adultery, rape, sexual abuse, twisting scripture, teaching false doctrines, lying, stealing, using money entrusted for God--for lust and pleasure, vanity, pride, the break-up of families, marriages, manipulation, using the most vile language while teaching about a Holy God. . . . the list is endless.
Oh I forgot. . . .all IN the NAME of a Holy God
What kind of moral relativity forgives this behavior with no repentance and change.
Isn't this actually what God condemns??
Forgive, knock yourself out with it. It is still evil behavior--and yes--I am making a judgement call here. I feel like I am on pretty solid ground.
I feel I can only forgive people for what they've done to me. I'm plenty angry about what they've done to other people who were hurt far worse than I was by twi "leaders," and I do not equate my forgiveness for wrongs committed against me with letting anyone off the hook for anything, whether done to me or others. I have no right to forgive someone for what he or she did to anyone but me.
And I don't feel I'm practicing moral relativity in the least. What is wrong is wrong. What is evil is evil. My forgiveness doesn't remove anyone's wrongness and evil one iota. I'm not that powerful, and it's not my job or my desire. It looks to me like doling out consequences is God's job, and last time I checked, God's name wasn't on my electric bill.
Just because I feel forgiving wrongs done to me is what I need to do certainly doesn't mean I can't recognize evil and point it out. The two are not mutually exclusive in my mind, at all.
Some of these men and women who used and abused God's people, if they're still alive, ought to be on their knees every day asking God's forgiveness. Maybe some of them are, but I suspect many haven't yet come to the realization that they did something wrong. If anyone wants to ask my forgiveness, that's nice, but I'm not waiting around for them to act rightly in order to get my heart where I think it belongs.
If anyone wants to ask my forgiveness, that's nice, but I'm not waiting around for them to act rightly in order to get my heart where I think it belongs.
I agree with you there, Linda. it would be a waste of time and thought. I just don't think forgiving them is necessary for me to be able to move on. to me, that's just religious semantics, and if it works for someone, it's great.
my hubby and I discuss this one all the time. he's pro-forgiveness for personal growth, my position is it's a word game :)
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Kit Sober
Received a nice note on forgiving from Watchman Nee, "The Lord my Portion."
Two things I pray for pretty regularly, that the Lord keeps the root of bitterness out of my heart and never shuts up my bowels of compassion.Link to comment
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Kit Sober
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Kit Sober
Startling insight on forgiveness I received on a prayer list today:
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
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potato
been thinking about forgiveness, just because people seem to crop up on a regular basis with the commandment to forgive and it's always for our own good, blah blah blah.
I looked up "forgive" in the dictionary:
1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b: to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon <forgive one's enemies>
in applying this to twi or to leaders of twi who committed crimes, I have this to say:
1 a: people who've been hurt will feel resentment and may feel that they are owed an apology (claim to requital). actively giving up those feelings do not happen in a vacuum. it takes a lot of processing time to come to terms with how a victim feels after being used and abused. no one has the right to tell them when they should forgive, or give up on the feeling they are owed an apology, or even in the case of a real crime, when they should give up on the hope of justice.
1 b: in a family, it makes sense to grant relief from payment of debt when a family member has a hard time paying, so that family relationships aren't damaged. in some cases it makes good business sense as well. twi may not technically be in debt to any of us, but they did make a promise to steward god's people and did not do that. they didn't pay their debt. personally I still consider them accountable for this, although anyone who wants can forgive that debt. I think in the end, it's actually god's debt alone to forgive.
2: see 1 a.
I think it's possible to move on with your life and accept that your claim to requital or an unpaid debt will be ignored by the other party, without letting them off the hook for it: in other words, you don't have to "forgive" to move on, and you don't have to forget, either.
I've moved on. twi is no longer part of my life and I'm actively recovering from the damage done during my 2 decade involvement with them. I will never get to a point in my life, however, where twi wasn't part of my past or the harm done by power-hungry leaders never took place. it will always be there. my hope of a better future is not dependent on forgiving them. I consider them accountable for their actions and always will.
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Lifted Up
I'm glad Kit brought this thread back, partly because she is one person...to those who are familiar with her posts over all the years...who can talk about the subject without giving the impression that she is telling anyone they have to forgive. She has not only acknowledged the hurts many have suffered, but expressed her anger, all while keeping her heart on God.
Potato is right; no person should tell another that they have to forgive for their hurt; that has to be the decision of the person who suffered the hurt.
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now I see
Regarding forgiveness, I think if a kid is getting harrassed and bullied by another kid, and then musters the courage to fight back and punch the bullies lights out, whereby the kid is never bothered by the bully again is something to rejoice in. Or when the woman who is raped, testifies against her assailant in court, whereby he is sentenced and publically outed and put away for 15 years, that would be a triumph and justice.
If absolute forgiveness was always the right thing to do, there would be no jails. If forgiveness is something God Almighty always directed, then why were there wars in the OT, and why did they stone people? There is something to be said for standing up for one's self and sanding up to evil doers. Forgiveness in degrees is subjective, is not for others to dictate it's definition, and cannot be legislated with a broad paintbrush.
Is a wolf in sheeps clothing really your brother?
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potato
I think this is perhaps what bothers me the most, is that the concept of "forgiveness" has become a religious philosophy with many definitions, rules, and consequences. that's why I went back to the dictionary, and realized that in its simplest and most straightforward form, the choice to not forgive is not harmful. it is not synonymous with seeking revenge.
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Lifted Up
Are forgiveness and fighting back mutually exclusive?
Of course, the latter can lead to the former I guess. In H.S. I was getting so irritated once by this guy sitting right behind me, I turned around suddenly and whacked him in the chest, shocking him and everyone else. I was probably the last person anyone would have thought would do that). The teacher, who had seen everything, said something short to the other guy, and not me, and otherwise did nothing. Within the next few weeks we (the guy I whacked and I) had become friends.
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Tzaia
Not according to what's written on the page. He (Jesus) didn't forgive them. He (Jesus) asked his father to forgive them. Furthermore, this asking of "forgiveness" was not recorded in any of the other three accounts. Doesn't that sort of take away from the "established" doctrine of 2 accounts?
Furthermore, the idea that he forgave them directly contradicts his earlier teaching of forgiving after being asked to forgive and repenting, which in turn contradicts his other teachings on the same subject.
The reality is that Jesus doesn't teach forgiveness the same way twice, except in a "Lord's Prayer" sense and doesn't practice any form of his ideas about forgiveness at times where he could provide clarity by using his personal life as a guide. For example, He didn't tell Thomas he forgave him for not believing when Thomas obviously saw the error of his ways. He admonished Thomas for having to see before he believed. I believe that would have been a good teaching "moment" on forgiveness.
There is a full gamut of how forgiveness is interpreted and practiced. It is definitely not a "one size fits all" sort of thing.
I think this is the crux of the matter. Over and over in my head I have asked how far all this would have gone if people would have simply put their foot down at the first signs of inappropriate behavior?
I had personally experienced bad behavior escalate when it wasn't nipped in the bud and I didn't want to live like that, so I took steps to nip it in the bud when I saw it.
It is what it is and nothing is going to change the past. An apology might bring meaning to the past, or might bring closure to the past. I think that is what people are looking for.
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Linda Z
To me the subject of forgiveness is simple (note I didn't say easy). When I forgive someone, it releases me--from my anger and bitterness and hurt feelings. It doesn't release that person from God's judgment. That part is between the person and God.
I hear a lot of people talking about not forgiving until someone asks for forgiveness. I refuse to give someone that much power over me. I don't want what I do with my heart and mind to depend on someone else's actions. I have the power to forgive or not. Waiting for an apology just holds my heart captive all that much longer.
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Ham
Forgiveness can be wonderful.. but I still think one should count the cost. What in particular is one actually forgiving FOR?
"I forgive you for being a jerk"..is kinda vague.. emotionally sweeping whatever "it" was under the carpet..
at times it ends up like the guy who started to build who didn't count the cost.
Maybe that's what people have to go through sometimes..
but it's like a debt. Do we forgive it, or do we not?
Maybe that's just too simplistic.. maybe forgiveness isn't written in black and white concepts..
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potato
Linda, it seems a bit like a chicken and egg problem... which comes first, processing the anger, bitterness and hurt feelings, or the "forgiving"? does "forgiving" make the bad feelings go away? or does dealing with the hurt bring you to a point of "forgiveness"?
I have to admit, the symantic gymnastics that religious philosophers go through over the concept of forgiveness often seem designed to make people feel guilty who decide not to be held captive to the bondage of being required to "forgive" a wrong-doer. those who hurt DON'T have power over me anymore. now it's MY choice. I no longer HAVE to forgive them.
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pond
The problem with not forgiving is that it is the reason people become bitter and have a hard heart, to carry the burden of not being able to trust and all the other personal problems a person gets from unforgiving makes for a very difficult and often painful relationship with the Lord Jesus christ.
Jesus commands us to love one another and it isnt about reconciliation he never went back and made good buddies with his enemys, it is about moving on in your own life and relationship with God, knowing how much Jesus forgave YOU, we can forgive others.
moving on isnt about fixing the other person problem and /or making the wrong right(so many times this is not even possible like if somone has died or the hurt is so deep it can not be repaired imediately) but we can get to the point in our own head that God loves us so much He sent His son for us.
and Jesus sent the comfort of the holy spirit within.
it is all about trusting God not so much one another we are to LOVE one another while trusting God . Jesus didnt trust men he knew what was in them, yet he still commands we Love and forgive as He does each of us.
When folks are angry and bitter and full of vengenace it hurts them as people... that is why Jesus says to leave the vengence up to HIM and just love one another.
reconciliation is NOT a requirement of forgivness.
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JeffSjo
For me, one of the things that actually seems to help people is spelling out exactly what the promises are that concern the Lord taking vengence are. If someone trusts in the Lord, then I feel that may comfort them.
Simply telling them that the spirit is the comforter may only lead them into feeling somehow worse if it is not followed up by something more substantial.
In TWI the manifestations were taught as a way to receive comfort, but IMO people that were actually being led into actually speaking directly to the abusers and the abused were ruthlessly forced to shut up or get out. And IMO the manifestations became for the most part as worthless as lukewarm milk toast. BLECCHH
This happened because stupid and wicked men were committed to continuing their wicked, corrupt and stinky actions and either fooled themselves or others into thinking they had the right to crush honest people ruthlessly.
Yeah, I believe that the Lord will avenge these things with many stripes. But I was actually taught in my splinter group that they believe that Christ will raise up Wierwille the MOG and send Wierwille to gather together his spiritual children. The viewponit that I believed until I came here was I believe deluded and downright unscriptural because Wierwille DID THINGS that make it clear to me that he deserves the very worst of the Lord's revenge.
These things may comfort the wounded IMO if they trust in the Lord like I do.
(added in editing)
The parts about the "Wierwille will gather us together for Christ" doctrine that my former splinter group taught is that from the beginning it was a hierarchtical thing. Wierwille was the MOG and my splinter group leader is of course the faithfull son of Wierwille. IMO he was just as twisted as Wierwille based on what I've heard at the Greasespot. Time's up, bye for now.
Hi again! I was able to come right back after another spot opened up immediately.
It just blows my mind how many of Wierwille's twisted methods a man can absorb if they worshipped Wierwille and turned AWAY FROM THE SCRIPTURES. I know that for many here the scriptures are not the answer, but I gotta go with it and call it like I see them. I hope that they know I'm not saying these things to put them down.
Once I got here I recognized "All women belong to the king" as a reference to Wierwille Because the twisted bastard that runs my former splinter group holds this Wierwillian doctrine himself. That guy was very adept at figuratively castrating every other man in the group. When I wouldn't cave, he led my wife into hating me, and eventually moved her and my son out of my house behind my back. Their cover story for these events seem just as transparent to me as TWI propoganda does now.
And that is just one similarity amoung many.
You can tell me to forgive, but suffering through these things almost completely crushed me. The comfort I've received from the scriptures is that the Lord himself knows all their dishonest, twisted, vile, and destructive actions better than I do AND HATES THEM TOO!!!
(edited for spelling too.)
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
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geisha779
I'm sorry what are we forgiving?
Serial adultery, rape, sexual abuse, twisting scripture, teaching false doctrines, lying, stealing, using money entrusted for God--for lust and pleasure, vanity, pride, the break-up of families, marriages, manipulation, using the most vile language while teaching about a Holy God. . . . the list is endless.
Oh I forgot. . . .all IN the NAME of a Holy God
What kind of moral relativity forgives this behavior with no repentance and change.
Isn't this actually what God condemns??
Forgive, knock yourself out with it. It is still evil behavior--and yes--I am making a judgement call here. I feel like I am on pretty solid ground.
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OperaBuff
My forgiveness will come when I see twi financially bankrupt. They will have more forgiveness than they can handle when that day comes. Until then, they can suck it.
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excathedra
tell us what you think (((((( geisha and opera ))))))) loveyou
i'm going to say something strange -- i don't think about who i do or not forgive too much
i just (just, just, just) thank god he loves me so much and he gave me christ
i've felt like that since i was a very little girl. WEIRD -- i shouldn't have to be forgiven for something i didn't do (as a little toddler), but yet guilt followed me -- and still does -- through my life
i wonder what that's all about and if that has anything to do with "all have fallen short or something" -- but i still don't really get a 3-or-4 year old's sin nature -- but i'm still thankful ??????
dear god, i hope this gets me a seat in the happy place :)
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waysider
The toughest person to forgive was myself.
Yep. For years I felt guilty that I had let God down by "copping out" on the household.
What a relief it was to finally come here and discover that what I really had done was dissociate myself from a cult.
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excathedra
that's really great waysider
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Twinky
Too right, Waysider!
Just saw this thread come up - wow, shouldn't it be in Soap Opera?? I read the first and last half dozen pages and found this:
Don't you? What if someone's behavior has caused you immense pain or difficulty? Your child got killed by a drunk driver? Your house got burned down by an arsonist, and all your sentimental things with it. Someone attacked you and caused you to be permanently injured - paralyzed or to lose a limb. Forgiveness won't bring the dead child back or build the house or replace the family heirloom or repair the paralyzed or missing limb.
You can forgive, but you still have to deal with the effects of someone's behavior. Therefore to some extent you have to think about the offending party. You just don't think about them bitterly.
If you can think about them with compassion, that has to be a bonus.
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JeffSjo
For me, this may fit into the "forgive myself" category, but it definitely is something that I consider.
When I was a part of my splinter group I knew that much of the teaching was b.s.. Thinking back, I don't believe that I ever bought the twist on the "gathering together" doctrine that I was taught, but I wonder sometimes whether or not I was bold enough in fighting the lies that were being promoted all around me.
Looking back, some things that I know now I was ignorant of then.
Some things I held back on because my judgement was at the time that I should pick my fights wisely if I actually wanted to do people some good.
Then on the other hand I wonder if I could have been bolder, maybe some of my former friends wouldn't be still caught up in my former splinter group's b.s.. I know first hand that if any of them resist that my former splinter group leader will manipulate everything that he can to make sure that anyone he decides to kick out is completely ruined before he lets them go.
It's not easy to look at these things, but for today it seems good that I'm not swallowed up by doubt and sorrow.
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Linda Z
Potato said:
I can only speak for myself, and I'm not telling anyone else that they have to forgive. That's each person's decision. For me, I processed the anger, bitterness, and hurt feelings for a while, and then I decided that was too much baggage to carry around and I didn't want it, so I decided to forgive what people in twi had done to me.
I didn't decide to forgive out of guilt. I did it for me. I figure God is more than capable of any revenge that might be due anyone else.
You're right, it's your choice, absolutely. And I don't feel any more righteous than anyone else for the choice I've made. It's simply what works for me.
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Linda Z
I feel I can only forgive people for what they've done to me. I'm plenty angry about what they've done to other people who were hurt far worse than I was by twi "leaders," and I do not equate my forgiveness for wrongs committed against me with letting anyone off the hook for anything, whether done to me or others. I have no right to forgive someone for what he or she did to anyone but me.
And I don't feel I'm practicing moral relativity in the least. What is wrong is wrong. What is evil is evil. My forgiveness doesn't remove anyone's wrongness and evil one iota. I'm not that powerful, and it's not my job or my desire. It looks to me like doling out consequences is God's job, and last time I checked, God's name wasn't on my electric bill.
Just because I feel forgiving wrongs done to me is what I need to do certainly doesn't mean I can't recognize evil and point it out. The two are not mutually exclusive in my mind, at all.
Some of these men and women who used and abused God's people, if they're still alive, ought to be on their knees every day asking God's forgiveness. Maybe some of them are, but I suspect many haven't yet come to the realization that they did something wrong. If anyone wants to ask my forgiveness, that's nice, but I'm not waiting around for them to act rightly in order to get my heart where I think it belongs.
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potato
I agree with you there, Linda. it would be a waste of time and thought. I just don't think forgiving them is necessary for me to be able to move on. to me, that's just religious semantics, and if it works for someone, it's great.
my hubby and I discuss this one all the time. he's pro-forgiveness for personal growth, my position is it's a word game :)
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