I had written "My mind is closed tight as a bank vault on this."
The key word is "this." I can converse as to why I have closed my mind on this one issue, and I can discuss other issues where I have not made such a final decision. Haven't you arrived at the end of your life's search on any issues yet?
Anyway, we have strayed too far from the topic here. Maybe you and I can discuss this in a Doctrinal thread or in PMs.
There is still a bunch of stuff on I Corinthians 3 and forgiveness I'd like to finish up here.
Sorry if I'm intruding here but it seems from the context of your post that the word "this" was referring to the subject of discussing possible errors in PFAL and the possibility that it(PFAL) might not be God breathed.
Sorry if I'm intruding here but it seems from the context of your post that the word "this" was referring to the subject of discussing possible errors in PFAL and the possibility that it(PFAL) might not be God breathed.
thanks waysider,
that is the way i read it, too...
i mean, the whole thesis depends upon whether or not the pfal "materials" are God-breathed in order to determine whether mike is idolatrous or not...
that was the big "IF" question!
so mike,
i don't know how we can possibly have a conversation about "this" if your mind is closed tight as a bank vault...
you say this is just one issue, but this is the only issue we were talking about... i.e. the issue of "IF pfal materials are God-breathed or not"
what other issues are there to discuss??
mike, if you don't want to discuss this, just say so...
and speaking of 1 Cor. 3, "let no man glory in men" (v.21)
the context of which suggests that "those who glory in men" are vain, thinking themselves wise, but deceiving themselves...
mike, i just don't think that there is any way around it... because everytime you point to a man (vpw) and his writings, this is gonna come up... i.e. that i think you are being idolatrous...
and speaking of 1 Cor. 3, "let no man glory in men" (v.21)
the context of which suggests that "those who glory in men" are vain, thinking themselves wise, but deceiving themselves...
mike, i just don't think that there is any way around it... because everytime you point to a man (vpw) and his writings, this is gonna come up... i.e. that i think you are being idolatrous...
Maybe you don't see a way around it – but as Word Wolf pointed out Mike will always find a way:
For those arriving late, I shall enable the Help files for this one.
Mike will consider ANY discussion to the errors in his doctrine to be attempts to "force"
him to change, or being like lcm.
Mike will refuse to even seriously consider the possibility his doctrine is wrong and nearly everyone else is right, period.
Mike thinks that-since we don't embrace Mikean doctrine- that we all need his help, and that any discussion
of the flaws in the Mikean doctrine are "bullying".
Mike has indeed "DEDICATED HIS LIFE TO" the Mikean doctrine.
Mike will make ANY sacrifice for his Mikean doctrine.
When the insides of the books ARE the details of all that went wrong,
Mike will then desperately "dodge" and "distract" and "never admit an error is an error."
(Those are DIRECT QUOTES from Mike, BTW.
He's since regretted admitting that he uses these strategies. He hasn't regretted USING them, however.
And if someone else OPINION disagrees with Mike's OPINION, Mike has a problem with that.
If someone else introduces FACTS that disagree with Mike's OPINION, Mike has a BIG problem with that,
thus "dodge" and "distract".
For those who arrived late, Mike's not the usual poster.
On vpw, Mike's said he "had an overabundance of brains and brawn", was "OVERgifted" and
"when he walked, the earth shook."
On the Orange Book, Mike's said that "when Jesus returns, he will be holding a copy of the Orange Book
and be teaching you from it."
For those of you who, like myself, think he HAD to be joking and making a joke on himself, he said he was
"Quite serious. I've seen him this way more than once."
There's other quotes, but basically, he considers the modern Bibles to be devoid of any usefulness, and devoid
of Godly authority.
For nearly 2000 years, there was no book with any real Godly authority.
Then, in 1942 and the years following, God-who bypassed centuries of Godly men-selects vpw as THE man to send
forth His message to the people, writing the greatest Godly documents for nearly 2000 years.
Oh, and Mike, please remember that I could make a MUCH more emphatic "case", but I'm taking it easy on you in this post.
Gee, Mike's misinterpreted something he's read.
Who would have guessed?
Mike, if you agree to answer plainly the questions by-and communicate directly and clearly with this poster with whom
I have no communication and know nothing about,
I will cooperate by staying out of the discussion entirely for at least a week, longer if it seems profitable for the discussion
for me to do so.
By the way Jen-O, nice point about I Corinthians 3 and deception.
don't you think you should explain to everyone why we aren't going to be having the conversation about whether or not pfal "materials" are God-breathed?
i only say this because it looks like everything has been left up in the air...
and my last post sits there like a dangling participle... LOL
I just want to chime in my two and a half cents. The topic of to love and forgive intrigue me. This is my personal conclusion (to myself and for myself through thinking and thinking) about God's word on forgiveness. Jesus never held onto grudges (which is really what not forgiving is doing). In my own personal life I found found that holding onto old hurts has never done me a lick of good. Actually, I found that it hurt me and stopped me from developing relationships in my life that would be helpful to me. I left TWI about a year ago now. Still talk to some of my WAY friends on occasion, but see no need associate what I feel is a more harm than good ministry. They hurt me deeply, and they hurt my spouse even deeper!!! Speaking for my family I can tell you that we really don't think about The Way anymore. To forgive has actually helped us let the whole thing GO... And MOVE ON... I love God and am currently still looking for a church. We will find one...
I guess what I am really trying to say is forgive them for yourself if for no other reason. God will deal with the rest. These leaders who have abused your trust could care less either way, so why give them the satisfaction of stealing your peace? Let them them lead their miserable lives without the benefit of holding a chunk of your peace and your emotions. For me, I found A LOT of common sense in Christ's words when he told us to forgive. For me, it was self preservation. Very healing...
This is just something that I worked from the word myself, and it made sense to me. It is not intended to be judgmental towards others.
you seem to be doing really well for having just recently left twi...
i understand what you are saying, and agree that forgiveness does help a person let go and move on...
not only with twi... but with other people and things that happen in life...
there really is freedom in forgiveness...
and the best thing that happens - is that you never really think about the offending party anymore! :)
peace,
jen-o
This has been so big in my life lately.
I had been friends with someone that I loaned over $1000 to a few years ago. At first she paid back whatever she could each month, sometimes $25, sometimes $75, but she was faithful to give me something each month. As time went on, she made less faithful attempts. Eventually, when it got down to $600-some she still owed, she quit paying it back at all. We've since stopped being friends, obviously...
Well, each time I hear about some new purchase she's made (van, fancy quilting sewing machine, saddle for her horse, etc...) each time I cringe thinking if only she'd have paid me in full, I wouldn't continue to resent her good fortune.
I made the remark the other day when someone informed me of a new, better paying job this lady found, that I would rather not even hear what's gooing on in her life anymore, as "it makes me remember how she screwed me over and it makes me mad all over again".
I'm working on forgiving her so I can get my power back and can stop her from affecting how I feel at any time ever! My goal is to get to a point that if I hear her name I can stop resenting her taking advantage of my kindness.
as i was writing my post, i actually thought about PTSD, and thought about putting a qualifier in there for severe and extreme cases of abuse...
but those situations are so much more complicated than a message board can handle... and i didn't really know where to draw the line... i mean, forgiveness is a process, not a simple statement... though it may start with the statement or end with the statement...
i, myself, have gone thru things that could be condidered PTSD (okay, WERE considered PTSD by a professional)... and i no longer suffer from any of those effects... and yes, i have forgiven "the offenders", and yes, it was a process... and no, i never think about the "offenders" or the "situations" anymore... but i'm not sure how much more than that i really want to say on a message board on the internet...
for some things, forgiveness is pretty easy - like someone cut you off in traffic, or someone called you a name, someone was rude to you, someone acted "nasty" to you on a message board, etc.,
(well, i think those things are pretty easy to forgive anyway)
and other things are harder to forgive...
(depending on the level of emotional trauma)
stuff like: your spouse cheating on you, or your spouse leaving you, issues of child abandonment or parental neglect, etc. etc.
[these kinds of things may be harder to work thru, but IMO can be forgiven and put into the past to the degree that "one basically doesn't even think about them anymore"... and on the rare occasion that these kinds of memories are brought to mind (like now), there is no emotional attachment to them... [and believe me, that's freedom]
how do i know?... having experienced all of the above (and more), i've seen it happen in my own life... and in the lives of others...
and then, there are cases of extreme abuse, which things i could not even begin to scratch the surface of on a message board... (although i still believe those things can be completely healed)
so i did not mean to make it sound like i was giving a "pat answer" about forgiveness... and i certainly did not mean to make light of extreme trauma and abuse... forgiveness is really more than mental assent (as you have pointed out waysider)... it is more than a "thought process", although it may begin there... and it's certainly not about ignoring what happened or telling yourself "not to think about it" or filling the hurt/pain/trauma with alcohol, drugs, food, work, etc. so that you never think about it... that would be called "stuffing it"...
forgiveness is not about ignoring pain and trauma, it is about releasing it...
i really feel like i'm rambling here... and i'm not sure i've even clarified my position... the reason i'm having such a difficult time expressing myself is because there are different levels of pain/trauma from a minor insult to extreme, prolonged abuse...
(and there is no one size fits all regarding "forgiveness")
i really feel like i'm rambling here... and i'm not sure i've even clarified my position... the reason i'm having such a difficult time expressing myself is because there are different levels of pain/trauma from a minor insult to extreme, prolonged abuse...
(and there is no one size fits all regarding "forgiveness")
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Mike
Not many. But then again, not many subjects are so important as to require it.
Plus, our culture seems to forbid it. Searching was very chic in the 60's, but even then, finding the end of a road was still anathema.
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Mike
...and a related thought is....
Has anyone closed their minds on forgiving?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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waysider
Sorry if I'm intruding here but it seems from the context of your post that the word "this" was referring to the subject of discussing possible errors in PFAL and the possibility that it(PFAL) might not be God breathed.
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Ham
It might be a small question, but who are "we"?
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jen-o
thanks waysider,
that is the way i read it, too...
i mean, the whole thesis depends upon whether or not the pfal "materials" are God-breathed in order to determine whether mike is idolatrous or not...
that was the big "IF" question!
so mike,
i don't know how we can possibly have a conversation about "this" if your mind is closed tight as a bank vault...
you say this is just one issue, but this is the only issue we were talking about... i.e. the issue of "IF pfal materials are God-breathed or not"
what other issues are there to discuss??
mike, if you don't want to discuss this, just say so...
peace,
jen-o
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jen-o
and speaking of 1 Cor. 3, "let no man glory in men" (v.21)
the context of which suggests that "those who glory in men" are vain, thinking themselves wise, but deceiving themselves...
mike, i just don't think that there is any way around it... because everytime you point to a man (vpw) and his writings, this is gonna come up... i.e. that i think you are being idolatrous...
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T-Bone
Maybe you don't see a way around it – but as Word Wolf pointed out Mike will always find a way:
By the way Jen-O, nice point about I Corinthians 3 and deception.
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Mike
T-Bone,
Can you find it in your heart to forgive me? :)
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T-Bone
Sure! No prob, Mike ! :)
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pond
please somone put this in the thread of famous quotes on greaspot!!!!!1
What the heck does this mean?
"
A Living tongue" lololololololololololo
this site makes me laugh so hard.
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alfakat
ok, it IS funny, but I would think he meant not some dead guy's words on paper but real live people with all the parts including the tongue......
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jen-o
mike,
don't you think you should explain to everyone why we aren't going to be having the conversation about whether or not pfal "materials" are God-breathed?
i only say this because it looks like everything has been left up in the air...
and my last post sits there like a dangling participle... LOL
shouldn't we at least say something about it?
peace,
jen-o
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cman
At least you read it pond.
I'm glad you did and got some lol's.
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agape99
I just want to chime in my two and a half cents. The topic of to love and forgive intrigue me. This is my personal conclusion (to myself and for myself through thinking and thinking) about God's word on forgiveness. Jesus never held onto grudges (which is really what not forgiving is doing). In my own personal life I found found that holding onto old hurts has never done me a lick of good. Actually, I found that it hurt me and stopped me from developing relationships in my life that would be helpful to me. I left TWI about a year ago now. Still talk to some of my WAY friends on occasion, but see no need associate what I feel is a more harm than good ministry. They hurt me deeply, and they hurt my spouse even deeper!!! Speaking for my family I can tell you that we really don't think about The Way anymore. To forgive has actually helped us let the whole thing GO... And MOVE ON... I love God and am currently still looking for a church. We will find one...
I guess what I am really trying to say is forgive them for yourself if for no other reason. God will deal with the rest. These leaders who have abused your trust could care less either way, so why give them the satisfaction of stealing your peace? Let them them lead their miserable lives without the benefit of holding a chunk of your peace and your emotions. For me, I found A LOT of common sense in Christ's words when he told us to forgive. For me, it was self preservation. Very healing...
This is just something that I worked from the word myself, and it made sense to me. It is not intended to be judgmental towards others.
God Bless,
Agape...
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jen-o
God Bless You Agape!
you seem to be doing really well for having just recently left twi...
i understand what you are saying, and agree that forgiveness does help a person let go and move on...
not only with twi... but with other people and things that happen in life...
there really is freedom in forgiveness...
and the best thing that happens - is that you never really think about the offending party anymore! :)
peace,
jen-o
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Mike
This deserves repetition. :)
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waysider
I understand the concept and agree with the essence of it.
Part of the problem, though, is that some of the damages done to people are not at the conscious, thinking level.
I recently posted a somewhat analogous example of a WWII vet who suffered from what we now call PTSS or PTSD.
It's like a virus that lived inside him, biding its time until conditions were right to surface.
It's not something you control by "thinking" about it.
You can forgive people on a conscious level and, according to The Word, you should.
It's not beneficial to carry grudges and retaliatory thoughts.
Plenty of medical and psychological studies will bare this out.
So, forgiving at the conscious level can certainly be a valuable part of the process but it's not the complete answer all by itself.
You can "never think about it again" and still suffer from adverse reactions that are tied to something deeper than the thought process.
IMO
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excathedra
nightmares and cold sweats :)
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bowtwi
This has been so big in my life lately.
I had been friends with someone that I loaned over $1000 to a few years ago. At first she paid back whatever she could each month, sometimes $25, sometimes $75, but she was faithful to give me something each month. As time went on, she made less faithful attempts. Eventually, when it got down to $600-some she still owed, she quit paying it back at all. We've since stopped being friends, obviously...
Well, each time I hear about some new purchase she's made (van, fancy quilting sewing machine, saddle for her horse, etc...) each time I cringe thinking if only she'd have paid me in full, I wouldn't continue to resent her good fortune.
I made the remark the other day when someone informed me of a new, better paying job this lady found, that I would rather not even hear what's gooing on in her life anymore, as "it makes me remember how she screwed me over and it makes me mad all over again".
I'm working on forgiving her so I can get my power back and can stop her from affecting how I feel at any time ever! My goal is to get to a point that if I hear her name I can stop resenting her taking advantage of my kindness.
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jen-o
dear waysider and excie,
as i was writing my post, i actually thought about PTSD, and thought about putting a qualifier in there for severe and extreme cases of abuse...
but those situations are so much more complicated than a message board can handle... and i didn't really know where to draw the line... i mean, forgiveness is a process, not a simple statement... though it may start with the statement or end with the statement...
i, myself, have gone thru things that could be condidered PTSD (okay, WERE considered PTSD by a professional)... and i no longer suffer from any of those effects... and yes, i have forgiven "the offenders", and yes, it was a process... and no, i never think about the "offenders" or the "situations" anymore... but i'm not sure how much more than that i really want to say on a message board on the internet...
for some things, forgiveness is pretty easy - like someone cut you off in traffic, or someone called you a name, someone was rude to you, someone acted "nasty" to you on a message board, etc.,
(well, i think those things are pretty easy to forgive anyway)
and other things are harder to forgive...
(depending on the level of emotional trauma)
stuff like: your spouse cheating on you, or your spouse leaving you, issues of child abandonment or parental neglect, etc. etc.
[these kinds of things may be harder to work thru, but IMO can be forgiven and put into the past to the degree that "one basically doesn't even think about them anymore"... and on the rare occasion that these kinds of memories are brought to mind (like now), there is no emotional attachment to them... [and believe me, that's freedom]
how do i know?... having experienced all of the above (and more), i've seen it happen in my own life... and in the lives of others...
and then, there are cases of extreme abuse, which things i could not even begin to scratch the surface of on a message board... (although i still believe those things can be completely healed)
so i did not mean to make it sound like i was giving a "pat answer" about forgiveness... and i certainly did not mean to make light of extreme trauma and abuse... forgiveness is really more than mental assent (as you have pointed out waysider)... it is more than a "thought process", although it may begin there... and it's certainly not about ignoring what happened or telling yourself "not to think about it" or filling the hurt/pain/trauma with alcohol, drugs, food, work, etc. so that you never think about it... that would be called "stuffing it"...
forgiveness is not about ignoring pain and trauma, it is about releasing it...
i really feel like i'm rambling here... and i'm not sure i've even clarified my position... the reason i'm having such a difficult time expressing myself is because there are different levels of pain/trauma from a minor insult to extreme, prolonged abuse...
(and there is no one size fits all regarding "forgiveness")
peace,
jen-o
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waysider
Thanks, jen-o
I don't think you are rambling at all.
You're making perfect sense.
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Mike
I've been here many a night; just different antagonists involved.
Yes. I've seen an exponential decline in ten years, but a tail end still lingers.
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jen-o
so in the end, it appears we are all human and struggle with forgiveness...
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Mike
When it's the most difficult that
the most learning CAN take place.
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