Alright, I've said most of what was on my heart, but I'll try and see if I can answer a few of your questions.
When I speak of "the word", I mean The Bible, specifically the original meaning and intent, which has been mostly preserved through it's various translations.
I've heard of the old fellowlaborers program but I don't know a lot of the details. My group lives together, guys and girls in separate homes. There are 7 of us total. We meet with the CFF staff on Thursdays and Sundays, we meet with each other almost every day. The commitment is for 11 months. We all work full time jobs during the day.
One of our recent assignments was to study instances of the spoken word in proverbs. We each took a set of chapters and studied our parts then complied it into a single document.
A current assignment is to put together a few 10 minute teachings based on the material covered in the Living in Gods Power Class, one teaching per week for the next few weeks.
waysider, I don't know of any truck stops off hand, but that's not to say there aren't any.
Rev. Wayne Clapp is now the president of CFF. I'm not certain 'president' is the correct title, but it gets the idea across.
CFF is not affiliated with TWI, hence no link.
Goey, thanks for the link! I'll consider the rest of what you said.
I'd say I respect Dr. Werwille, but to say worship him would not be accurate.
GrouchoMarxJr, thanks for the welcome. I would indeed be amazed if everyone agreed with me on everything. For the time being I'm going to pass on your class. Thanks for the offer though.
If you want, but now I see, message me with you name and I'll tell my dad you said hi.
That's all I've got time for at the moment; You guys will see me pop in every now and then, but it'll probably be pretty sporadic.
Have a great New Year everybody, God bless you all!
okay..........so that's it? there is "no link" between twi and cff according to nathan friedly?..........i knew both john shroyer and wayne clapp during my time in twi.........i was their "boss" in twi's leadership structure for several years........during my years in twi, i never knew of anything willfully wrong or immoral perpetrated against any "believers" by either of these men........my personal interactions with both john and wayne were positive and amicable to the best of my recollection...........but, to say there is "no link" between cff and twi is grossly inaccurate, and at best misleading..........at worst..........a blatant lie!
why do these people "deserve" a "free pass" from their personal history of a "sold-out committment" to vic and the dancing prez and twi??..........because they were relatively "nice guys" during twi's reign of terror from 1989 to 1998?.........both knew enough of vic's "extra-curricular" activities back in the late 80's...........still they stubbornly clung to twi despite the debacle of pop and it's vicious aftermath..........they knew about the lies, the sexual and financial misconduct, the defamation of those who were speaking out about what really went on "behind the scenes" at hq and around the world..........yet, they chose to stick with the liars and the thieves!..........why??
when king okie's loyalty letter went out in march of 1989, both shroyer and clapp willfully chose to "stand" with martindale against geer, and all the rest of the "cop-outs"..........they rose to positions of leadership prominience in the early and mid-1990's.........during a time when king okie pushed twi into the horrors of the "prevailing word in the promised land of the present truth".........which included the infamous "homo purge", absolutely no debt, and the glorious practice of marking and avoiding hapless believers while the dancing prez and his boyz were sexin' it up with any women in the kingdom they desired and badmouthing the rest of the world!.........wayne clapp was running the family corps at rome city for several of those years!.......he was one of martindale's staunchest supporters!........how many humans did he and fern "help" at the behest of martindale? or moynihan?...........how many orders did wayne faithfully carry out which inflicted serious spiritual and psychoemotional harm upon human beings??..........how many lies about former leaders in twi did the clapps joyully pass along to twi followers?.........how many people have they sought out to apologize to for their shameful actions??
cff is as much wierwille's "fruit" as twi is!......they are, perhaps, more "loyal" to the doctrines and beliefs of vic than any other splinter group around with the exception of the geer cult!........the validity of the "spiritual credentials" of the leaders of cff is totally dependent upon acceptance of vic's teachings and almost all of twi's doctrine.........their structure is simply a "lite" version of the way tree..............we live in the united states of america, and cff has every right to exist, and teach whatever it wants.........but, it is also the right of those of us americans who choose not to accept cff's beliefs, to expect that cff speak the truth when it comes to their origins in twi, and their personal adherence to the theology of vic, and their version of vic's way ministry!.........imho, cff and vic are haplessly and hopelessly intertwined, and, in the long run, their spritual DNA will bear it's identifying fruit!............another one will bite the dust!..........why do the offshoots all expend so much effort in avoiding their deep entanglement in the life and teachings of vic and twi? what is it they are trying to hide?..........what connections are they trying to downplay?.......and, is lying the proper christian response to honest questions such as these?
albert einstein said, "we can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."..........all the offshoots of twi,.... ALL OF THEM!..........presuppose that the basic thelogy of vic's pfal series, is, or contains, or promotes, or delivers, or teaches the rightly divided word of god...........ALL OF THEM get their basic beliefs and doctrines from vic and his same "sources".........bg leonard, je stiles, ew bullinger, ew kenyon, rufus mosely, glenn clark, albert cliffe, rosalind rinker, e. stanley jones, and various other ministries they've hooked themselves up with through the last 20 years..........NONE OF THEM have taken the time to fully, exhaustively and objectively review the thinking which led these men to build and push their "ministries" to the world!.........they have simply adopted their own version or forms of vic's "original" thinking about god and the bible, and, either have gone on to evolve their own doctrines and classes and churches and fellowships, and whatever!, or, they have "ministries" which seek to "carry on" in the footsteps of the mogfot without "the legalism", or without "hurting people"!...................unless there is a a "new kind of thinking" about god and the bible, an entirely new consciousness of god in the hearts and minds of these "leaders", their "ministries" are doomed to produce the same fruit and accomplish the same end as vic's!................another einstein quote fits here nicely..........."learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. the important thing is not to stop questioning!"..........
one more thing.............it is still my opinion, as it was in my first post here at the greasespot in september of 2007, that all the leaders of all the twi offshoots everywhere here in the USA, are as guilty as twi regarding their whitewashing of the life and "ministry" of victor paul wierwille and his way ministry!..........as long as they persist in carrying on in his teachings, doctrines and mannerisms, they are guilty of supporting and promoting the teachings and lifestyle of a narcissistic, sociopathic, alcoholic, serial sexual predator, who plundered his way through his little corner of god's people in the name of the accuracy and integrity of god's word!........that's my opinion, for what it's worth!...............guess who.........."in matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems, for issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same.".............................peace.
I think, that if the *great* guys hadn`t been covering for vpw, if they hadn`t been nice, making the fellowship sweet...it would have been a whole lot harder for vp and lcm to pull off the deception.
I guess they are a lot like the rest of us....having so much invested in twi....one doesn`t want to be wrong....so you do what you have to to white wash what happened....to down play the harm caused.
I think you have to start all over again, the foundation that we built our lives on was wrong.
For we are labourers together with God; ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any many build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any mans work abide which he hath build thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
IMO, this is where VP went wrong. He may have started out with correct blueprints from the Lord Jesus Christ, but then he turned his back on the
Lord Jesus and relegated the King to mothballs and so lost the accurate blueprints and was left only with scribbles in the sand, but continued to
build upon the sand...
AND NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY!
Just so that no one accuses me of plagiarism....above quote from Paul Harvey.
If you were in leadership over Clapp you probably knew these same things and might have promoted them also. These guys only want to continue in the ministry as their vocation without going the mainstream religion route that some of our other TWI people have done. I have more respect for these guys than the other ex Wayy Corps who are teaching crap just to make a buck. Cut them a break like you've been cut also.
some things I wonder about, but am not interested in finding out by first hand experience...
it's been established to my satisfaction that vpw and lcm did very little research and that others supplied the "word" that they twisted and put their name on, so...
Wayne was heading up the twi research dept. if I remember correctly, for a while. does he teach his own research from that period of time?
if the body of work that vpw taught as his was pieced together from a myriad of other researchers, does he really have a ministry that can be carried on, or are these men carrying on the "work" of his "ministry" also simply plagiarists of all those who were plagiarized by vpw?
did lcm come up with any research on his own? did he really write the rise and expansion book, and if he did, did he do the research for it? (note: that was pretty much hands down the most badly written text book I've ever read. I couldn't finish it.)
Cut them some slack???WHY??? For what possible purpose??
Is what they are doing actually honest??? I don`t think so.
Their egos STILL prevent them from honestly examining the foundation of their core doctrines. This dishonesty prevents them from teaching anything of value, imo :(
No one should be cut any slack. Anyone who has a ministry that even remotely resembles The Way should be persecuted with the hounds of hell and be utterly destroyed. Their character assassinated. No room for forgiveness, nothing. You just stop yackin' about anything else. And those whose lives were ruined by The Way should commit themselves to spending the rest of their entire lives re-living those painful memories so as to be able to stay in a state of mind which will enable them to stay in the hunt, searching out anything remotely resembling The Way and tearing it apart...
Oh HECK yeah......break out the pitch forks and torches...:) lol
Gee Jonny, Sounds like you are a little sore because people don`t have any respect for these posers any more.
Lets see....
THEY presented themselves as God`s ministers....
THEY won our allegiance and trust with the authority that they claimed as God`s ministers....sure sure...even IF they personally didn`t actively participate in the destruction of peoples lives...THEY stood by ...knowing what vpw`s TRUE spiritual nature was....their status as a *good guy* covering the true putrid nature of twi`s founder.....and THEY watched scriptures used as the tool to destroy people.
THEY continue to chose to hide all of that (I think) because THEY are too cowardly to admit that they were mistaken to start all over again.
Untill these folks honestly comes to grips with the spiritual corruption which they participated in, they really are in NO position to help anybody.
It is nothing more than mental maste...er um exercise to pat themselves on the back and feel like they weren`t wrong.
I repeat WHY would you cut anybody who is STILL being so patently dishonest any slack?
I know it sounds really mean, but I say this with ALL of the compassion in my heart....UNTIL one gets rid of the ego, of the learned arrogance aquired in twi, untill ones get humble before God and start over from scratch....All you will ever amount to is a wannabee ....you haven`t got what it takes to really help people spiritually.
Instead oh honesty and humility....all I see is folks desperately trying to prop up and patch their crumbling faulty foundation.
I am not referring to those leaders and people who have called a spade a spade from the very beginning. I have a lot of respect for folks who have the courage and honesty to stand up for what was right.
I know that many were forced out for that, I know that many left rather than be a party to the dishonesty.
Sadly, you miss the point. I know that they were as corrupt as you say. But to spend one's life immersed in the past and allowing dead men to hurt you is beyond sanity, in my opinion. And, like it or not, both God and Jesus have instructed us to forgive those who have trespassed against us. Seems to me that the "winning combo" is to forgive and move on....
cff is as much wierwille's "fruit" as twi is!......they are, perhaps, more "loyal" to the doctrines and beliefs of vic than any other splinter group around with the exception of the geer cult!........the validity of the "spiritual credentials" of the leaders of cff is totally dependent upon acceptance of vic's teachings and almost all of twi's doctrine.........their structure is simply a "lite" version of the way tree..............
how much longer they're gonna be a decaff version is up to debate, if "leaders and workers" get sent in among them from somebody's "training" program..
one more thing.............it is still my opinion, as it was in my first post here at the greasespot in september of 2007, that all the leaders of all the twi offshoots everywhere here in the USA, are as guilty as twi regarding their whitewashing of the life and "ministry" of victor paul wierwille and his way ministry!..........as long as they persist in carrying on in his teachings, doctrines and mannerisms, they are guilty of supporting and promoting the teachings and lifestyle of a narcissistic, sociopathic, alcoholic, serial sexual predator, who plundered his way through his little corner of god's people in the name of the accuracy and integrity of god's word!.....
I respect DWBH, but let's be clear about something: upon DWBH's leaving the ministry he did it with a very respectful outlook of Dr. Wierwille. In fact, upon his resignation from his ministry responsibilities in the 37-page letter to the Trustees, when these folks (John & Pat Lynn, Thomas M. Reahard, Ralph A. Dubofsky and Robert Belt) announced their resignations if the Trustees wouldn't change, Dr. Wierwille was highly praised on and on in both teaching and leadership manner. Practically the whole letter to the Trustees wasn't condemning the evils of Dr. Wierwille but was about praising him, how he handled things superbly, and how the Trustees were screwing things up because they weren't following Drs. example
It is worth noting that NOTHING was mentioned THEN what DWBH mentions NOW about Dr.'s lifestyle of a narcissist, his alcoholism, sociopathic adultery and fornication etc. This was as late as February of 1987, when DWBH had PLENTY OF TIME before then to see and experience these things firsthand.
Dr. Wierwille died in May of 1985 and DWBH is still praising him in and after February of 1987.
Here are a couple (among many) of quotations from the February 1987 letter to the Trustees, praising Dr. Wierwille:
How simple this is. It can't be that when an elder or overseer, because of his human frailties, blows it, that he's out. We're not casting stones here. What would give us that right? Nothing. Time and time again, we have seen Dr. Wierwille be forgiving to us and to others in leadership positions. He kept supporting us and believing in us to change. Some who didn't change were later removed from their responsibilities. Why? Because Dr. Wierwille is human and he got mad and just said, "I can't take it anymore?" Of course not. Something as important as the ministry of a man before God would not be left up to the opinions of other men to decide.
We must remember who fathered us in God's Word and remember his ways which were in the Lord.
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now I see
Hi Nathan, I knew your dad back in the day, the last time I saw him and your mom was in Van Wert at a yard sale in '87.
Welcom to the Spot!
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Ham
But Now I See.. your avatar. To me, it looks like George Bush eating a cat. Tell me it isn't so..
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Nathan Friedly
Alright, I've said most of what was on my heart, but I'll try and see if I can answer a few of your questions.
When I speak of "the word", I mean The Bible, specifically the original meaning and intent, which has been mostly preserved through it's various translations.
I've heard of the old fellowlaborers program but I don't know a lot of the details. My group lives together, guys and girls in separate homes. There are 7 of us total. We meet with the CFF staff on Thursdays and Sundays, we meet with each other almost every day. The commitment is for 11 months. We all work full time jobs during the day.
One of our recent assignments was to study instances of the spoken word in proverbs. We each took a set of chapters and studied our parts then complied it into a single document.
A current assignment is to put together a few 10 minute teachings based on the material covered in the Living in Gods Power Class, one teaching per week for the next few weeks.
waysider, I don't know of any truck stops off hand, but that's not to say there aren't any.
Rev. Wayne Clapp is now the president of CFF. I'm not certain 'president' is the correct title, but it gets the idea across.
CFF is not affiliated with TWI, hence no link.
Goey, thanks for the link! I'll consider the rest of what you said.
I'd say I respect Dr. Werwille, but to say worship him would not be accurate.
GrouchoMarxJr, thanks for the welcome. I would indeed be amazed if everyone agreed with me on everything. For the time being I'm going to pass on your class. Thanks for the offer though.
If you want, but now I see, message me with you name and I'll tell my dad you said hi.
That's all I've got time for at the moment; You guys will see me pop in every now and then, but it'll probably be pretty sporadic.
Have a great New Year everybody, God bless you all!
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excathedra
ugh you should have known him, nathan
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waysider
Thanks, Nathan for taking the time to give me that info on your FL program.
It doesn't sound very much like the old FL program but does resemble what used to be called "Way Homes".
My comment about the truck stop was really tongue-in-cheek.
You see, my "handle" is derived from the name of a truck stop that was frequented by FLO called Wayside Truck Stop.
I didn't expect you to know that.
It was just something silly I tossed in there.
waysider
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J0nny Ling0
Hi there Nathan,
God bless you. Isn't your Dad's name Dan? Dan Friedly? Anyway, have a joyful New Year!
Jonny Lingo
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now I see
Why yes, Mr Hamm Squirrel, it is our Prez, G Doubaya, biting into a nice fresh, sweet, Kitty on the cob. Â
You gotta to luv cute fuzzy kittens, and George Doubaya.
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DontWorryBeHappy
okay..........so that's it? there is "no link" between twi and cff according to nathan friedly?..........i knew both john shroyer and wayne clapp during my time in twi.........i was their "boss" in twi's leadership structure for several years........during my years in twi, i never knew of anything willfully wrong or immoral perpetrated against any "believers" by either of these men........my personal interactions with both john and wayne were positive and amicable to the best of my recollection...........but, to say there is "no link" between cff and twi is grossly inaccurate, and at best misleading..........at worst..........a blatant lie!
why do these people "deserve" a "free pass" from their personal history of a "sold-out committment" to vic and the dancing prez and twi??..........because they were relatively "nice guys" during twi's reign of terror from 1989 to 1998?.........both knew enough of vic's "extra-curricular" activities back in the late 80's...........still they stubbornly clung to twi despite the debacle of pop and it's vicious aftermath..........they knew about the lies, the sexual and financial misconduct, the defamation of those who were speaking out about what really went on "behind the scenes" at hq and around the world..........yet, they chose to stick with the liars and the thieves!..........why??
when king okie's loyalty letter went out in march of 1989, both shroyer and clapp willfully chose to "stand" with martindale against geer, and all the rest of the "cop-outs"..........they rose to positions of leadership prominience in the early and mid-1990's.........during a time when king okie pushed twi into the horrors of the "prevailing word in the promised land of the present truth".........which included the infamous "homo purge", absolutely no debt, and the glorious practice of marking and avoiding hapless believers while the dancing prez and his boyz were sexin' it up with any women in the kingdom they desired and badmouthing the rest of the world!.........wayne clapp was running the family corps at rome city for several of those years!.......he was one of martindale's staunchest supporters!........how many humans did he and fern "help" at the behest of martindale? or moynihan?...........how many orders did wayne faithfully carry out which inflicted serious spiritual and psychoemotional harm upon human beings??..........how many lies about former leaders in twi did the clapps joyully pass along to twi followers?.........how many people have they sought out to apologize to for their shameful actions??
cff is as much wierwille's "fruit" as twi is!......they are, perhaps, more "loyal" to the doctrines and beliefs of vic than any other splinter group around with the exception of the geer cult!........the validity of the "spiritual credentials" of the leaders of cff is totally dependent upon acceptance of vic's teachings and almost all of twi's doctrine.........their structure is simply a "lite" version of the way tree..............we live in the united states of america, and cff has every right to exist, and teach whatever it wants.........but, it is also the right of those of us americans who choose not to accept cff's beliefs, to expect that cff speak the truth when it comes to their origins in twi, and their personal adherence to the theology of vic, and their version of vic's way ministry!.........imho, cff and vic are haplessly and hopelessly intertwined, and, in the long run, their spritual DNA will bear it's identifying fruit!............another one will bite the dust!..........why do the offshoots all expend so much effort in avoiding their deep entanglement in the life and teachings of vic and twi? what is it they are trying to hide?..........what connections are they trying to downplay?.......and, is lying the proper christian response to honest questions such as these?
albert einstein said, "we can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."..........all the offshoots of twi,.... ALL OF THEM!..........presuppose that the basic thelogy of vic's pfal series, is, or contains, or promotes, or delivers, or teaches the rightly divided word of god...........ALL OF THEM get their basic beliefs and doctrines from vic and his same "sources".........bg leonard, je stiles, ew bullinger, ew kenyon, rufus mosely, glenn clark, albert cliffe, rosalind rinker, e. stanley jones, and various other ministries they've hooked themselves up with through the last 20 years..........NONE OF THEM have taken the time to fully, exhaustively and objectively review the thinking which led these men to build and push their "ministries" to the world!.........they have simply adopted their own version or forms of vic's "original" thinking about god and the bible, and, either have gone on to evolve their own doctrines and classes and churches and fellowships, and whatever!, or, they have "ministries" which seek to "carry on" in the footsteps of the mogfot without "the legalism", or without "hurting people"!...................unless there is a a "new kind of thinking" about god and the bible, an entirely new consciousness of god in the hearts and minds of these "leaders", their "ministries" are doomed to produce the same fruit and accomplish the same end as vic's!................another einstein quote fits here nicely..........."learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. the important thing is not to stop questioning!"..........
one more thing.............it is still my opinion, as it was in my first post here at the greasespot in september of 2007, that all the leaders of all the twi offshoots everywhere here in the USA, are as guilty as twi regarding their whitewashing of the life and "ministry" of victor paul wierwille and his way ministry!..........as long as they persist in carrying on in his teachings, doctrines and mannerisms, they are guilty of supporting and promoting the teachings and lifestyle of a narcissistic, sociopathic, alcoholic, serial sexual predator, who plundered his way through his little corner of god's people in the name of the accuracy and integrity of god's word!........that's my opinion, for what it's worth!...............guess who.........."in matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems, for issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same.".............................peace.
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copenhagen
GREAT POST DWBH.
Love to hear your opnion.
copenhagen
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excathedra
it was a really really good post
but i would like to respectfully ask him how he really feels
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excathedra
you know what, forgive me for fooling around
A BIG BIG BIG THANK YOU TO don't worry be happy
i love you
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rascal
((((DWBH)))) Great points.
I think, that if the *great* guys hadn`t been covering for vpw, if they hadn`t been nice, making the fellowship sweet...it would have been a whole lot harder for vp and lcm to pull off the deception.
I guess they are a lot like the rest of us....having so much invested in twi....one doesn`t want to be wrong....so you do what you have to to white wash what happened....to down play the harm caused.
I think you have to start all over again, the foundation that we built our lives on was wrong.
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brideofjc
1 Corinthians 3:9-15
For we are labourers together with God; ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any many build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any mans work abide which he hath build thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
IMO, this is where VP went wrong. He may have started out with correct blueprints from the Lord Jesus Christ, but then he turned his back on the
Lord Jesus and relegated the King to mothballs and so lost the accurate blueprints and was left only with scribbles in the sand, but continued to
build upon the sand...
AND NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY!
Just so that no one accuses me of plagiarism....above quote from Paul Harvey.
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excathedra
up for debate :)
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Sweetpea
DWBH,
If you were in leadership over Clapp you probably knew these same things and might have promoted them also. These guys only want to continue in the ministry as their vocation without going the mainstream religion route that some of our other TWI people have done. I have more respect for these guys than the other ex Wayy Corps who are teaching crap just to make a buck. Cut them a break like you've been cut also.
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excathedra
continue in what ministry ? wierwille's ? ha why would anyone give them a break ? that's ridiculous
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potato
some things I wonder about, but am not interested in finding out by first hand experience...
it's been established to my satisfaction that vpw and lcm did very little research and that others supplied the "word" that they twisted and put their name on, so...
Wayne was heading up the twi research dept. if I remember correctly, for a while. does he teach his own research from that period of time?
if the body of work that vpw taught as his was pieced together from a myriad of other researchers, does he really have a ministry that can be carried on, or are these men carrying on the "work" of his "ministry" also simply plagiarists of all those who were plagiarized by vpw?
did lcm come up with any research on his own? did he really write the rise and expansion book, and if he did, did he do the research for it? (note: that was pretty much hands down the most badly written text book I've ever read. I couldn't finish it.)
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rascal
Cut them some slack???WHY??? For what possible purpose??
Is what they are doing actually honest??? I don`t think so.
Their egos STILL prevent them from honestly examining the foundation of their core doctrines. This dishonesty prevents them from teaching anything of value, imo :(
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J0nny Ling0
No one should be cut any slack. Anyone who has a ministry that even remotely resembles The Way should be persecuted with the hounds of hell and be utterly destroyed. Their character assassinated. No room for forgiveness, nothing. You just stop yackin' about anything else. And those whose lives were ruined by The Way should commit themselves to spending the rest of their entire lives re-living those painful memories so as to be able to stay in a state of mind which will enable them to stay in the hunt, searching out anything remotely resembling The Way and tearing it apart...
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rascal
Oh HECK yeah......break out the pitch forks and torches...:) lol
Gee Jonny, Sounds like you are a little sore because people don`t have any respect for these posers any more.
Lets see....
THEY presented themselves as God`s ministers....
THEY won our allegiance and trust with the authority that they claimed as God`s ministers....sure sure...even IF they personally didn`t actively participate in the destruction of peoples lives...THEY stood by ...knowing what vpw`s TRUE spiritual nature was....their status as a *good guy* covering the true putrid nature of twi`s founder.....and THEY watched scriptures used as the tool to destroy people.
THEY continue to chose to hide all of that (I think) because THEY are too cowardly to admit that they were mistaken to start all over again.
Untill these folks honestly comes to grips with the spiritual corruption which they participated in, they really are in NO position to help anybody.
It is nothing more than mental maste...er um exercise to pat themselves on the back and feel like they weren`t wrong.
I repeat WHY would you cut anybody who is STILL being so patently dishonest any slack?
I know it sounds really mean, but I say this with ALL of the compassion in my heart....UNTIL one gets rid of the ego, of the learned arrogance aquired in twi, untill ones get humble before God and start over from scratch....All you will ever amount to is a wannabee ....you haven`t got what it takes to really help people spiritually.
Instead oh honesty and humility....all I see is folks desperately trying to prop up and patch their crumbling faulty foundation.
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rascal
I am not referring to those leaders and people who have called a spade a spade from the very beginning. I have a lot of respect for folks who have the courage and honesty to stand up for what was right.
I know that many were forced out for that, I know that many left rather than be a party to the dishonesty.
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J0nny Ling0
Sadly, you miss the point. I know that they were as corrupt as you say. But to spend one's life immersed in the past and allowing dead men to hurt you is beyond sanity, in my opinion. And, like it or not, both God and Jesus have instructed us to forgive those who have trespassed against us. Seems to me that the "winning combo" is to forgive and move on....
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Ham
how much longer they're gonna be a decaff version is up to debate, if "leaders and workers" get sent in among them from somebody's "training" program..
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oldiesman
I respect DWBH, but let's be clear about something: upon DWBH's leaving the ministry he did it with a very respectful outlook of Dr. Wierwille. In fact, upon his resignation from his ministry responsibilities in the 37-page letter to the Trustees, when these folks (John & Pat Lynn, Thomas M. Reahard, Ralph A. Dubofsky and Robert Belt) announced their resignations if the Trustees wouldn't change, Dr. Wierwille was highly praised on and on in both teaching and leadership manner. Practically the whole letter to the Trustees wasn't condemning the evils of Dr. Wierwille but was about praising him, how he handled things superbly, and how the Trustees were screwing things up because they weren't following Drs. example
It is worth noting that NOTHING was mentioned THEN what DWBH mentions NOW about Dr.'s lifestyle of a narcissist, his alcoholism, sociopathic adultery and fornication etc. This was as late as February of 1987, when DWBH had PLENTY OF TIME before then to see and experience these things firsthand.
Dr. Wierwille died in May of 1985 and DWBH is still praising him in and after February of 1987.
Here are a couple (among many) of quotations from the February 1987 letter to the Trustees, praising Dr. Wierwille:
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