TWI was a predator's playground. All they had to do was pay attention during the classes, learn the 'speak' be bold(a leader!), and look what they could get? They could fit right in, sound just right, make merchandise of God's people I think it is called in the Bible. That is why they are called WOLVES IN SHEEP CLOTHING.
...
I say it's not the wolves in sheep's clothing one has to look out for anymore. The sheep have learned how to wear wolves clothing.
Sometimes I wonder if all this "Battle of the Scriptures" really gets anyone anywhere...
I've watched this thread for a while now. I've seen good arguments made on both sides - using scripture.
Isn't it possible - just possible - that life isn't as black and white as we were lead to believe? Perhaps there are bigger answers out there that involve tolerance and understanding of the other person.... Meeting a person where they're at and allowing them to be who and what they are while you are who and what you are....
Maybe the best change comes naturally....and not with a lot of striving and contention.
That's a great point, Dooj. Yesterday Tonto said the same thing while we were discussing this thread: people can quote Scripture to prove any point. It reminds me of discussions about Jesus being God/not God…Only here, it's not an intellectual debate over inferences from certain Scripture – but over practical application – and more precisely, what specific Scripture applies to a situation. The tendency of some folks on a particular bandwagon is to think one verse fits all situations. But even Ecclesiastes 3 says there's an appropriate time for everything.
When do we apply the prescription for church discipline in Matthew 18:15-17? And when is the repeated forgiveness of Matthew 18:21, 22 applicable?.....It's funny – these passages aren't "miles of Scripture" apart – but in the same chapter!...Perhaps the challenge is not to settle for pat answers or assume we know all the details that need to be known – it takes personal involvement in either case – as can be seen in both these passages.
You know Dooj, As long as folks insist on proclaiming their personal beliefs and desires as God`s will, and insist that others comply, complete with scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument...shrug then I guess that there is going to be a problem.
Most of us have moved on beyond being manipulated and bullied into obedience and silence :(
It is very hard to discuss things sometimes without someone feeling like it is a personal assault. The person that can say the nastiest things, the loudest is the self proclaimed winner.
It is really hard perhaps to recognize that it is the belief or idea that is being challenged, and not the poster personally.
Brideofjc, no kidding! Isn`t it amazing number one, that we allowed it, and number two, that we did indeed do it to ourselves.
You know Dooj, As long as folks insist on proclaiming their personal beliefs and desires as God`s will, and insist that others comply, complete with scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument...shrug then I guess that there is going to be a problem.
You know Dooj, As long as folks insist on proclaiming their personal beliefs and desires as God`s will, and insist that others comply, complete with scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument...shrug then I guess that there is going to be a problem.
Most of us have moved on beyond being manipulated and bullied into obedience and silence :(
Then again when a Christians personal beliefs are beliefs that scripture confirms and tells us we should be thinking and living then they would not qualify as scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument but biblical beliefs that they have accepted as truth. The same mental gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument could be applied to atheists.
Then again when a Christians personal beliefs are beliefs that scripture confirms and tells us we should be thinking and living then they would not qualify as scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument but biblical beliefs that they have accepted as truth. The same mental gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument could be applied to atheists.
Oh come ON Dove. You know that Wierwille, martindale, Geere, n so forth, all believed what they were doing as Christians was all right based on *personal beliefs that the scriptures confirmed they should be thinking and living* sad.gif In THEIR book it was Godly...n ...by golly acceptable as *truth* ... the path however, of shattered lives and destruction they left in their wake...gives evidence to the contrary.
Those guys committed atrociously evil acts...all justified, and backed up by scripture. Problem was, they ignored a WHOLE lot of other scriptures and instructions, anything that would contradict what they personally wanted to believe...shrug.
Either we believe that the scriptures are flawed, or that they can indeed be missaplied...ie application of *mental gymnastics* in order to support ones personal pet theory....
Sorry friend, but scriptural quotation to confirm the imposition of ones personal will upon another was not acceptable then, nor is it now.
In this particular instance, on this thread, forgive, forget, never speak of what happened in twi if that suits you personally. Please though, when you insist that God requires the rest of us to do what you want...backed by scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to your point...shrug then you are crossing over the line into manipulation, in my opinion.
Dooj, I just don`t know what would make it any easier. I don`t think that coddling one another because of where we are in our personal growth. Or not challenging each other to think above and beyond our own little box of accepted thinking will do anyone any favors.
If we go through life believing we are totally right, in posession of all truth... ones arrogance tends to prevent them from ever acknowledging being wrong or facing the need for re evaluation and change.
Gosh didn`t we see enough of that in twi?? Are folks here really so fragile, that we cannot examine ourselves?
No, I know it really isn`t always comfortable to examine ones self, ones motives, ones culpability, ones truths....yet how else will we ever grow and become better as people?
Oh come ON Dove. You know that Wierwille, martindale, Geere, n so forth, all believed what they were doing as Christians was all right based on *personal beliefs that the scriptures confirmed they should be thinking and living* sad.gif In THEIR book it was Godly...n ...by golly acceptable as *truth* ... the path however, of shattered lives and destruction they left in their wake...gives evidence to the contrary.
Those guys committed atrociously evil acts...all justified, and backed up by scripture. Problem was, they ignored a WHOLE lot of other scriptures and instructions, anything that would contradict what they personally wanted to believe...shrug.
Either we believe that the scriptures are flawed, or that they can indeed be missaplied...ie application of *mental gymnastics* in order to support ones personal pet theory....
Sorry friend, but scriptural quotation to confirm the imposition of ones personal will upon another was not acceptable then, nor is it now.
In this particular instance, on this thread, forgive, forget, never speak of what happened in twi if that suits you personally. Please though, when you insist that God requires the rest of us to do what you want...backed by scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to your point...shrug then you are crossing over the line into manipulation, in my opinion.
I think your comment was made in response to doojable's post which was about GreaseSpot posters and their use of scripture how did it suddenly become about Wierwille, Martindale, Geere, You seem to miss the point Christians should not have personal will when it comes to living scripturally ,scripture should not back up anything it should be their standard for truth. In effect their will is what scripture declares,they are one in the same. The scriptures tell us that is what we are to speak, your free to accept it or anything else you want. Either does not support or void scripture it stands as is.
No, my post was completely in response to you, friend.
Wouldn`t it be wirwille, , martindale, and Geere, whom missed your point that *Christians should not have a personal will when it comes to living scripturally, scripture should not back up anything, it should be their standard of truth* ??
I agree, with your point in that premiss. So when you put your finger in someones face declaring that God requires them to forgive because of the conclusions that you personally have drawn from the application of some of the scriptures that you like and ignoring some of scriptures that don`t support you..and then proclaiming THAT to be truth....In my opinion, you have then then crossed the line into personal manipulation with scriptural back up to lend legitimacy to enforce the actions that you personally desire.....ie forgive these guys so that you will shut up about what they did...and allow us to remain unchallenged in our beliefs and comfortable in our perceptions.
You seem to miss the point Christians should not have personal will when it comes to living scripturally
And that is precisely why many were abused, run over, and run off. No personal will..
In effect their will is what scripture declares,they are one in the same.
is it? or is their will what they THINK scripture declares?
The scriptures tell us that is what we are to speak, your free to accept it or anything else you want.
when something is devilish and harmful, I think the scriptures demand us to SCREAM.. even if it's "after the fact".
I was talking with one of my kids about something like this last night. There's a *certain* situation where "they" would merely counter, "well, we don't talk about that kinda stuff.. we just want to magnify the WORD.."
she says it's the language of abuse. Their will is broken, as I think you have described.. "no personal will when it comes to the word(?).."
they've been TRAINED to not talk about the abuse.
that's what abusers DO.. lockbox stuff comes right out of molestation 101. It's a SECRET.
Dooj, I just don`t know what would make it any easier. I don`t think that coddling one another because of where we are in our personal growth. Or not challenging each other to think above and beyond our own little box of accepted thinking will do anyone any favors.
If we go through life believing we are totally right, in posession of all truth... ones arrogance tends to prevent them from ever acknowledging being wrong or facing the need for re evaluation and change.
Gosh didn`t we see enough of that in twi?? Are folks here really so fragile, that we cannot examine ourselves?
No, I know it really isn`t always comfortable to examine ones self, ones motives, ones culpability, ones truths....yet how else will we ever grow and become better as people?
Rascal... I don't have answers - just "maybes."
What I don't see working is the constant back and forth of scriptures. IMHO both sides are ignoring an abundance of scripture to maintain a point.
What all this tells me is that the subject is not black and white but it is filled with emotion. Emotion is just as valid as reason - or else we would not have the capacity to utilize both. Room must be made for emotions - on both sides of the argument.
At one point, if one isn't careful, the arguing for either side gets to be as filled with ego and vengeance as the TWI we despise.
I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I say this after having to sit and take a look at why it is that I once posted so much.
It's just an opinion. It's not fact. It's not truth. Maybe it's my wimpiness talking.
When I was eight years old I was sexually abused by a man who ran an after-school day camp. And after that first molestation, I was literally blackmailed into silence by him, making it possible for him to continue to molest me for a year without fear of being exposed.
People who wonder why child victims of sexual abuse remain silent about their experiences have to understand that after that first episode the molester takes ownership of the youngster for a variety of reasons including shame and threats to tell his parents their child is a sexual deviant.
In my case the reason why I didn’t run away although this man was molesting me for a year was simply this: he owned me.
As I wrote in my book, “Twice Adopted,” which I urge parents to buy and read carefully for their children’s sake (you can get it at Amazon.com), “It doesn’t matter if you are molested once or a thousand times; it’s the first incident that does the damage. That first act solidifies the molester’s ownership of you.”
Although I have no way of knowing if Shawn allowed himself to be photographed in a compromising situation as I was, if that was the case with him the molester’s ownership was solidly confirmed.
I allowed my abuser to take nude photos of me much against my will. He used those photos to blackmail me into silence by threatening to show them to my mother. That thought terrorized me. And it was enough to keep me silent.
I thought that if my mother saw those pictures she would know that I was what I then believed myself to be -- evil. Another hold a molester has over his victim, you see, is his understanding that his victims come to believe that the molestation is their fault, and their deep shame and guilt ensures their silence.
I've heard when they prey on multiple victims, they set the rules of how one is to be treated by the community when he or she betrays the "secret"..
da vey's tactics, when things went "wrong"?
Threaten them with the prospect that if they reveal the act, that they'll ruin the bible, the ministry, and gawd's gonna be really, really dissapointed. Or if that doesn't work, run them off grounds, mark them as possessed.. or worse. Some were not able to speak of it for decades..
the few who come forward seem to have their motives questioned.. demand of details and evidence to back up the claims..
raw dismissal because some can't remember whether the room it happened had red drapes, or green.. pretty apparent to me that we had a community with a conditioned response. Somebody who'd make such a "wild" claim would just HAVE to be possessed.. we were "owned"..
do "they" still own YOU?
I think that this isn't really off topic. I think that's part of the pattern of abuse. The community or some in it demanding forgiveness for the abuser.. "aw, he didn't mean it.. it wasn't his fault.. he's just distracted..after all, he feeds us.. buys us candy.. lay off him and just forgive.."
I just think when the hucksters use the bible to silence their victims, there's a whole other level of betrayal of a human being. And they've trained others to do the same.
"speak the same thing.." "only magnify the word.. gawd forbid we magnify da debil with gossip or negatives.." "you HAVE to forgive.."
"this little matter is not important. It's da WORD that's at stake.."
"wouldn't it just be EASIER to forgive.."
It would have been a heck of a lot easier if these gods in their own estimation kept their hands to themselves.. and didn't play with people's lives.
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What The Hey
I say it's not the wolves in sheep's clothing one has to look out for anymore. The sheep have learned how to wear wolves clothing.
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Bramble
Because they won't hush up for you, WTH? Now the sheep are inflicting harm on the pooor wolvies by posting on GSC?
Interesting.
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J0nny Ling0
Yeah, you are right! He does want us to be unified as a Family!
:)
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doojable
Sometimes I wonder if all this "Battle of the Scriptures" really gets anyone anywhere...
I've watched this thread for a while now. I've seen good arguments made on both sides - using scripture.
Isn't it possible - just possible - that life isn't as black and white as we were lead to believe? Perhaps there are bigger answers out there that involve tolerance and understanding of the other person.... Meeting a person where they're at and allowing them to be who and what they are while you are who and what you are....
Maybe the best change comes naturally....and not with a lot of striving and contention.
Just thinking - hence all the "maybe."
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T-Bone
That's a great point, Dooj. Yesterday Tonto said the same thing while we were discussing this thread: people can quote Scripture to prove any point. It reminds me of discussions about Jesus being God/not God…Only here, it's not an intellectual debate over inferences from certain Scripture – but over practical application – and more precisely, what specific Scripture applies to a situation. The tendency of some folks on a particular bandwagon is to think one verse fits all situations. But even Ecclesiastes 3 says there's an appropriate time for everything.
When do we apply the prescription for church discipline in Matthew 18:15-17? And when is the repeated forgiveness of Matthew 18:21, 22 applicable?.....It's funny – these passages aren't "miles of Scripture" apart – but in the same chapter!...Perhaps the challenge is not to settle for pat answers or assume we know all the details that need to be known – it takes personal involvement in either case – as can be seen in both these passages.
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Ham
sadly, the "contest" looks like a group of men wielding clubs.. with bystanders taking bets on who is going to be the last one left standing..
it USED to be, he who knew more greek words and memorized enough of old "doc"'s stuff had the bigger club.
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brideofjc
It's not the Greek words, Ham, it was the doc's stuff that did everyone in and led to spiritual bondage.
And what was worse, we were young and we followed and we willingly put on our own personal set of spiritual blinders
thinking that we would be able to please God.
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rascal
You know Dooj, As long as folks insist on proclaiming their personal beliefs and desires as God`s will, and insist that others comply, complete with scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument...shrug then I guess that there is going to be a problem.
Most of us have moved on beyond being manipulated and bullied into obedience and silence :(
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rascal
Well said Ham!
It is very hard to discuss things sometimes without someone feeling like it is a personal assault. The person that can say the nastiest things, the loudest is the self proclaimed winner.
It is really hard perhaps to recognize that it is the belief or idea that is being challenged, and not the poster personally.
Brideofjc, no kidding! Isn`t it amazing number one, that we allowed it, and number two, that we did indeed do it to ourselves.
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doojable
That was my point....
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WhiteDove
Then again when a Christians personal beliefs are beliefs that scripture confirms and tells us we should be thinking and living then they would not qualify as scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument but biblical beliefs that they have accepted as truth. The same mental gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument could be applied to atheists.
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Ham
true, but sometimes I think being able to properly pronounce "pneuma" or other such words only applied a veneer of legitimacy on some of the madness.
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rascal
sorry
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rascal
Oh come ON Dove. You know that Wierwille, martindale, Geere, n so forth, all believed what they were doing as Christians was all right based on *personal beliefs that the scriptures confirmed they should be thinking and living* sad.gif In THEIR book it was Godly...n ...by golly acceptable as *truth* ... the path however, of shattered lives and destruction they left in their wake...gives evidence to the contrary.
Those guys committed atrociously evil acts...all justified, and backed up by scripture. Problem was, they ignored a WHOLE lot of other scriptures and instructions, anything that would contradict what they personally wanted to believe...shrug.
Either we believe that the scriptures are flawed, or that they can indeed be missaplied...ie application of *mental gymnastics* in order to support ones personal pet theory....
Sorry friend, but scriptural quotation to confirm the imposition of ones personal will upon another was not acceptable then, nor is it now.
In this particular instance, on this thread, forgive, forget, never speak of what happened in twi if that suits you personally. Please though, when you insist that God requires the rest of us to do what you want...backed by scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to your point...shrug then you are crossing over the line into manipulation, in my opinion.
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rascal
Dooj, I just don`t know what would make it any easier. I don`t think that coddling one another because of where we are in our personal growth. Or not challenging each other to think above and beyond our own little box of accepted thinking will do anyone any favors.
If we go through life believing we are totally right, in posession of all truth... ones arrogance tends to prevent them from ever acknowledging being wrong or facing the need for re evaluation and change.
Gosh didn`t we see enough of that in twi?? Are folks here really so fragile, that we cannot examine ourselves?
No, I know it really isn`t always comfortable to examine ones self, ones motives, ones culpability, ones truths....yet how else will we ever grow and become better as people?
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WhiteDove
I think your comment was made in response to doojable's post which was about GreaseSpot posters and their use of scripture how did it suddenly become about Wierwille, Martindale, Geere, You seem to miss the point Christians should not have personal will when it comes to living scripturally ,scripture should not back up anything it should be their standard for truth. In effect their will is what scripture declares,they are one in the same. The scriptures tell us that is what we are to speak, your free to accept it or anything else you want. Either does not support or void scripture it stands as is.
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rascal
No, my post was completely in response to you, friend.
Wouldn`t it be wirwille, , martindale, and Geere, whom missed your point that *Christians should not have a personal will when it comes to living scripturally, scripture should not back up anything, it should be their standard of truth* ??
I agree, with your point in that premiss. So when you put your finger in someones face declaring that God requires them to forgive because of the conclusions that you personally have drawn from the application of some of the scriptures that you like and ignoring some of scriptures that don`t support you..and then proclaiming THAT to be truth....In my opinion, you have then then crossed the line into personal manipulation with scriptural back up to lend legitimacy to enforce the actions that you personally desire.....ie forgive these guys so that you will shut up about what they did...and allow us to remain unchallenged in our beliefs and comfortable in our perceptions.
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Ham
is it? or is their will what they THINK scripture declares?
when something is devilish and harmful, I think the scriptures demand us to SCREAM.. even if it's "after the fact".
I was talking with one of my kids about something like this last night. There's a *certain* situation where "they" would merely counter, "well, we don't talk about that kinda stuff.. we just want to magnify the WORD.."
she says it's the language of abuse. Their will is broken, as I think you have described.. "no personal will when it comes to the word(?).."
they've been TRAINED to not talk about the abuse.
that's what abusers DO.. lockbox stuff comes right out of molestation 101. It's a SECRET.
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GarthP2000
We atheists wuv you too. :wub:
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doojable
Rascal... I don't have answers - just "maybes."
What I don't see working is the constant back and forth of scriptures. IMHO both sides are ignoring an abundance of scripture to maintain a point.
What all this tells me is that the subject is not black and white but it is filled with emotion. Emotion is just as valid as reason - or else we would not have the capacity to utilize both. Room must be made for emotions - on both sides of the argument.
At one point, if one isn't careful, the arguing for either side gets to be as filled with ego and vengeance as the TWI we despise.
I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I say this after having to sit and take a look at why it is that I once posted so much.
It's just an opinion. It's not fact. It's not truth. Maybe it's my wimpiness talking.
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Ham
I think a pretty close comparison can be made.
A short exerpt of Michael Reagan's article:
http://caglecartoons.com/column.asp?column...D632A462AC14%7D
I've heard when they prey on multiple victims, they set the rules of how one is to be treated by the community when he or she betrays the "secret"..
da vey's tactics, when things went "wrong"?
Threaten them with the prospect that if they reveal the act, that they'll ruin the bible, the ministry, and gawd's gonna be really, really dissapointed. Or if that doesn't work, run them off grounds, mark them as possessed.. or worse. Some were not able to speak of it for decades..
the few who come forward seem to have their motives questioned.. demand of details and evidence to back up the claims..
raw dismissal because some can't remember whether the room it happened had red drapes, or green.. pretty apparent to me that we had a community with a conditioned response. Somebody who'd make such a "wild" claim would just HAVE to be possessed.. we were "owned"..
do "they" still own YOU?
I think that this isn't really off topic. I think that's part of the pattern of abuse. The community or some in it demanding forgiveness for the abuser.. "aw, he didn't mean it.. it wasn't his fault.. he's just distracted..after all, he feeds us.. buys us candy.. lay off him and just forgive.."
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doojable
NO.
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Ham
Hey, I knew that friend.. I wasn't asking you..
:)
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Ham
I just think when the hucksters use the bible to silence their victims, there's a whole other level of betrayal of a human being. And they've trained others to do the same.
"speak the same thing.." "only magnify the word.. gawd forbid we magnify da debil with gossip or negatives.." "you HAVE to forgive.."
"this little matter is not important. It's da WORD that's at stake.."
"wouldn't it just be EASIER to forgive.."
It would have been a heck of a lot easier if these gods in their own estimation kept their hands to themselves.. and didn't play with people's lives.
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