Weeeell, the use of the word "moral" in moral outrage, moral objection, moral kicka-poo, whatever - may be literally correct but is often used in religious camps to demean the level of contribution.
Used in that context C. Geer was at one time, way back when, a classic example when he refuted any objections previous to his own in early 1986 as "moral" objections, and not "biblical" objections. Because he insisted that no one had ever made the proper "biblical" case for change in the Way, their efforts were invalid, IHO. Never mind that he offered nothing biblically practical or specific himself.
I wanted to bring this up because as I read along here, starting to use that terminology appears to be defining what goes on here on GS in a context. I'd like to confirm that that context is valid.
Plenty of Bible-Bobbing goes on here, and verses tossed back and forth to validate various positions. A lot of what's quoted is 1,000's of years ago, written in different times and about different circumstance. How any one idea (or verse if that word is too repugnant for anyone) stacks up today in application is up for grabs. Simply because something was said or done a certain way at one time doesn't automatically mean it applies to anything specific today - it might in fact be true but does it have anything to do with what it's being applied to? Or is it being laid over something today incorrectly. ("God says don't be proud, pride comes before a fall, and you're proud, and you're going to fall"..........assumes the person being addressed IS actually prideful. Are they? says who?)
Moral: of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conductor the distinction between right and wrong;
Identifying conduct as right or wrong has to be based on a standard. Once the standard is accepted, conduct can be evaluated. There has to be a measure.
From what I read here the measure IS biblical in two ways - on a per verse basis, ie "the bible says this and to do that and etc." and on a "common sense" basis, where something (though written long ago) is understood to be applicable today because it deals with something everyone can accept as a standard with or without that reference - "don't lie" is a commandment, but we'd all likely agree to lie is wrong with or without a verse, Christian or not.
Anyhoo - hopefully the use of "moral" objections isn't lessening the strength of the points being made. Moral judgment is the outcome of a standard being recognized and applied. And if violated, recognized.
I hope my use of the term "moral outrage" doesn't weaken the point either. When I think about these issues I don't think of the term "moral outrage".
I think of cusswords.
I think of word like scummy, degenerate, vile, repulsive, abusive, repugnant, abominable, leacherous, despicable, etc. etc.
If it would make the point better in this discussion I'd gladly replace the phrase " moral outrage" with any other that communicates better.
(added in editing)
Now that I'm thinking about it I am flabergasted and amazed that Chris Geer said that no one could make a "BIBLICAL" case for change of TWI. Don't get me wrong because plenty of folks here know many more details than me, but at least that's a little indication that at least someone was interested in change.
Here was TWI going to hell-in-a-handbasket and no one could make a case for change.
I try real hard not to get worked up, but NOBODY COULD MAKE A BIBLICAL CASE FOR TWI TO CHANGE?
What kind of convuluted, retarded kind of logic was at work there?
NOBODY COULD MAKE A BIBLICAL ARGUMENT FOR TWI TO CHANGE?
I'VE HEARD SOME STUPID THINGS BEING SAID IN MY LIFE, BUT THAT IS ABOUT THE MOST INFURIATINGLY STUPID THING I'VE EVER HEARD.
Who was handling God's Word those days? Couldn't they figure out that it's biblically correct to get rid of the minister-rapists? How about the minister-abusers? How about it being biblically correct to get rid of the minister-adulterors?
IF ANYONE WAS SERIOUSLY LOOKING FOR A BIBLICAL CASE FOR TWI TO CHANGE AND THEY COULD NOT FIND IT ....... I'M SORRY EVERYONE, THAT' SIMPLY THE STUPIDEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD!!!!!
(Straight sacasm here as I mock those leaders here)
God's Word Has everything YOU need for life and Godliness, but we can't figure out how to make a biblical case to change the ministry. So we're going to go full steam ahead straight into the freaking toilet and take as many of you followers down with us as we can. Don't break ranks anyone, look not to the right hand or the left. Just go straight into the toilet, don't question your leadership either.
I'M REALLY GLAD THAT YOU SHARED THAT SOCKS, BECAUSE FOR THE FIRST MOMENT IN MY LIFE I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR CHRIS GEER, AND IF HE SAID WHAT YOU SAY HE DID THEN HE DOESN'T DESERVE ANY RESPECT UNTIL HE OPENLY AND HONESTLY COMES TO TERMS WITH ONE OF THE ALL TIME STUPIDEST THINGS SAID BY A HUMAN BEING EVER.
That's enough from me now, I trust that my opinion is clear enough on this matter.
All this discussion over "somebody's morality" proves that what exists in the church today are political liberals who want a "moral Jesus" stripped of grace.
Snort...TWI leaders were the scum of the earth, they destroyed lives, they were the PERFECT example of everything that a false prophet/wolf in sheeps clothing ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour....and so let`s ignore ALL of that and INSTEAD.... attack some nebulous un named church and make up stories about political liberals.....and pretend that they want a moral Jesus stripped if grace.
How bout you folks whom don`t want people annalyzing your sins as twi participants REPENT! How about you apologize!!! How about you seek to make amends with folks where possible!!! THEN golly, you won`t have to be mad at people for being completely disgusted by what you did to them. Wowzer ...and the that would eliminate the necessity of constantly making excuses for your behavior and that of your leaders!!
The healing on both sides could begin!!
What a novel concept! How brilliant!! Wait ... it`s in the scriptures!! That makes it even more recomended :)
While you were responding to WTH I edited my last post, I just don't want you to miss it.
(edited to stay on topic)
I gladly forgive the Rev. Chris Geer if he did say the stupidest thing by a human being ever, even if it isn't technically the STUPIDEST I gladly forgive him and hold no grudge.
Would you believe that I have seen far stupider statements attributed to that same man by posters here?? That in addition to being incredibly stupid, according to accounts, that fellow was unconscionably cruel, graphically nasty to the point of making one want to throw up with his supposed marriage counceling.
He was also the person that was reputed on more than one web site to have given girls a drink on the bus .. for them only to later awake while being sexually assaulted by wierwill@??... talk about a conscience seared with a hot iron..w!erwille`s right hand man...the repository for his supposed final instructions....ugh
and HE still runs a group proclaiming to teach the *truth* a group that is still actively hurting people if the accounts here are to be believed. What a scum bucket...
Are we going to trust these guys?? Are we going to cut them any slack?? EVER??? Are we going to believe for one instant that men that could do this....had any honest desire to help people??? Can we by any WILDEST stretch of the imagination believe that they have changed without a public apology and restitution????
If it was anybody else other than the founders of an organization that we personally invested our hearts and souls into, we would be decrying their abuse and cruelty with outrage.
I think we are reluctant to come to grips with the truth of what these men did because we personally don`t want to admit being duped by con men :(
We owe it to the unsuspecting, to share what we whom have had personal experience with these fiends.
How bout you folks whom don`t want people annalyzing your sins as twi participants REPENT! How about you apologize!!! How about you seek to make amends with folks where possible!!! THEN golly, you won`t have to be mad at people for being completely disgusted by what you did to them. Wowzer ...and the that would eliminate the necessity of constantly making excuses for your behavior and that of your leaders!!
The healing on both sides could begin!!
What a novel concept! How brilliant!! Wait ... it`s in the scriptures!! That makes it even more recomended :)
First - what makes you think they have to repent? They (whatever TWI participants you happen to be referring to) probably don't know you so they don't owe you an apology. On the otherhand (if they do know you) that only indicates they don't value the relationship between you and them enough to repent or to apologize.
What makes me think that they have to repent...hmmm could it be SCRIPTURES say that it is required??? Now granted, if you are not a Christian, that will not be much of a recommendation :)
I absolutely believe with every fiber of my being that the perpetrators don`t value a relationship enough to apologize...(I have to say that I have never read more honest words spoken from you WTH) They hold absolutely NO regard for their brothers and sisters in Christ. (though I have my doubts if the perpetrators ARE actually brothers) No esteem what so ever. ....else they NEVER could have done what they did in the FIRST place to those entrusted to their care. .. nor would any person of character, integrity, and decency.
Those whom were held in so little regard that twi leaders used and destroyed without conscience....Those whom were shattered and tossed aside when their usefulness exhausted like so much garbage, are the very same people that God tells us the shepherd would leave the 99 in search for the one precious lost.
I KNOW that the perpetrators don`t value the people who were used and destroyed enough to repent and apologize. THAT much is crystal clear.
I know that knowledge aquired in twi puffs one up,. If however, ones arrogance allows them to sin without conscience.... Fine, but why try to justify ones self and actions to anybody else? Most of us can see past the lies and bull crap and simply don`t buy it any more.
Most of us have had contact with genuine Christians since leaving the posers and pretenders in twi. Most of us having met spirit filled Christians whom manifest the fruit of the spirit are now able to fully comprehend the travesty of twi and understand the putrid spiritual nature of these men of the flesh...AND have lost all respect and regard.
So, there are drugging rapists here at GSC who need to apologize. And if they are here, as you say, then they need not only apologize, but be arrested also...
Not a problem, Jeff. But as What the Hey has noted - it bugs some people like the dickens to hear the word "immoral". IMO that's because of a reluctance to properly evaluate and recognize wrong behavior that results from wrong decisions. It smacks of self-righteous judgment, hypocrisy. It's not.
All are sinners - everybody sins. So goes the biblical case. That's not an excuse, it's a reason. More a condition really. Don't expect a pig to fly, don't expect a horse to deal cards, don't expect mankind to be anything but what it is.
When a person's conduct reflects wrong choice, it is what it is. Not recognizing it and treating it properly is wrong in and of itself. It doesn't matter that "we all sin". The standard being accepted defines the rule of law. If it's God's law, man's law, my dog's law, doesn't matter. Not giving it it's due shows a disrespect for the standard, whatever or whoever's it is.
I heard a man at church, in the study group I attend, fluffing off "moral" distinctions, then he turned right around and quoted the biblical standard for the point he wanted to make. It's a BS attitude IMO, refuting even when someone does the "right" thing, but doesn't do it with the right Holy Water sprinkled on it. I don't need anyone blessing my good deeds with their cross and telling me it's okay. Fuk that.
Geer - whole nother topic. He once stated he was ill suited for what he was trying to do. He was right.
So, there are drugging rapists here at GSC who need to apologize. And if they are here, as you say, then they need not only apologize, but be arrested also...
Forgiveness from God is a wonderful thing. Sin - cast outta sight. Gone. It's "as if I never did them", we're square. I have trouble accepting that at times, but it appears that the account has been settled. Big prop's to Jesus Christ. My account was in serious arrears. The phone was ringing and I knew who it was. Wasnt I surprised when I finally answered?
Something had to be forgiven, reconciled. Stuff I recognize. Stuff I don't recognize. One blanket covered all and I sleep warm at night.
Sometimes. Feeling chilly? Must be a reason.
My ongoing ineptitude requires constant recognition on my part for the process that's provided that reconciliation. My "hope" is in what's to come - it's clearly in the fact that while I embrace my redemption I don't - won't - always live by it. It's like a time-continuum thingie - I can't reach a point where what I was going to do tomorrow wont happen if what happens tomorrow is what caused an event of the past. I may choose differently because of it but I will be exactly who I am at any given point along the way. Everything comes together at a point in the future where everything is reconciled once and for all. "Grace", "mercy". Peace in the valley.
In the meantime, I will rely on the kindness of strangers and they on me. I dont have to forgive anyone, but expecting that others wont have the same range of experience that I know I do is unrealistic. It will be difficult sometimes. The process of redemption wasnt exactly a walk in the part. How I choose to apply what I believe are the hmm, best practices, in life, is up to me.
Discussing the finer points of forgiveness is good, but whether any of us ever do it on the scale of God and Jesus Christ is a whole nother kettle of shrimp. Someone says theyre sorry, someone else doesnt. Whatever. My advice - do what youre gonna do and get on with it if you can and I dont say that lightly. Easier said than done, but when said all of this gets a little hmmmmmmmmmm....long. Including this fish wrap.
as usual, well put, socks. sometimes we, or mostly "we", want the "all or nothin'" approach from the song in Oklahoma. As each year pases by, I realize how futile that all is.
But when someone or ones step up and say " I, or we, have The TRUTH" or some other such nonsense, THEN they are going to be held to a HIGHER standard. Or, in another way of speaking, it tends to become more black/ white, all or nothin. If one does not wish to be held to that standard and wishes to proclaim, loosely speaking, "what's a little sinnin' amongst friends (or congregants)" then that group or leader is fair game to be brought down, exposed, what have you by quote MORAL OUTRAGE end quote.
or as my old man usta say, you can't have it both ways. You cannot state, or heavily imply, that you have all the answers not known in 20 centuries and then have a secret, anything goes standard for those who can handle it. WHY???? well, mostly cuz' of what socks said -- we are what we are, mankind is fallen and needs the help, and the moral standard that goes with, that God provided in His wonderful Son Jesus. To deny that and say that with super-duper, triple top-secret knowledge, one can become free from any responsibility to live up to the one who set the standard, the framework and the deliverance in the first place, is simply the repackaging of the oldest lie as something brand shiny new. Did the Lord God really say.....hey, if you only knew more, you would be just like HIM...the only one who had ever followed that path before ended up being booted with all his buddies. Secret knowledge produces open sin, apparently
jonny, are you so comfortable in your position or "take" on things that you can reply with (what appears to be) ignorance and also such rudeness at the same time ?
--
forget about forgiveness and jesus christ for a moment ?
did you read the above posts about being a moral person ?
can you see that "dr. wierwille" was so far from being morally correct or kind or good ?
That was for Rascal when she vowed to be like Jesus, turning over the tables of the money changers, using whips and such. Yeah, I can just see Rascal with her whips and storm trooper boots kicking over tables and that. Hard not to roll my eyes, ya know?
forget about forgiveness and jesus christ for a moment ?
did you read the above posts about being a moral person ?
can you see that "dr. wierwille" was so far from being morally correct or kind or good ?
Of course I see it! I have said it over and over again that VPW blew it and used and abused people! It's just that I think that forgiveness and moving on is way more productive that "stewing over the past"! But I guess you don't see that when I say it...sigh...
That was for Rascal when she vowed to be like Jesus, turning over the tables of the money changers, using whips and such. Yeah, I can just see Rascal with her whips and storm trooper boots kicking over tables and that. Hard not to roll my eyes, ya know?
That was a complete mis characterization of my post...again
So, there are drugging rapists here at GSC who need to apologize. And if they are here, as you say, then they need not only apologize, but be arrested also...
Are there?? *I* certainly didn`t say that.
You certainly did!! You said it right there in post# 256:
HERES an idea!!!
How bout you folks whom don`t want people annalyzing your sins as twi participants REPENT! How about you apologize!!! How about you seek to make amends with folks where possible!!! THEN golly, you won`t have to be mad at people for being completely disgusted by what you did to them. Wowzer ...and the that would eliminate the necessity of constantly making excuses for your behavior and that of your leaders!!
The healing on both sides could begin!!
What a novel concept! How brilliant!! Wait ... it`s in the scriptures!! That makes it even more recomended
Mr. Lingo then went beyond that by also mentioning something about being arrested.
But you said there were TWI participants here that had to: REPENT! and apologize!!! -- and make amends.
For your information:
1. I am not a TWI participant. I haven't been since 1991.
2. I don't have to: REPENT, make amends, or apologize - not to you - or to anybody else at GSC. Why?
Because I haven't done anything to you (or to anyone else at GSC for that matter) that requires me to: REPENT, make amends or apologize for.
In fact - I don't believe we have even ever personally met one another - at a GSC gathering or while in TWI! - the same thing goes for many other posters here at GSC.
... That's why ...
3. I am not mad at anyone here - but I certainly think someone here maybe very .
Just why do I think someone here is very ?
Because I have a hard time seeing why anyone here could possibly be: (to put it in your own words) "completely disgusted by what I did to them" - namely for reasons #1 and #2 cited above.
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socks
Weeeell, the use of the word "moral" in moral outrage, moral objection, moral kicka-poo, whatever - may be literally correct but is often used in religious camps to demean the level of contribution.
Used in that context C. Geer was at one time, way back when, a classic example when he refuted any objections previous to his own in early 1986 as "moral" objections, and not "biblical" objections. Because he insisted that no one had ever made the proper "biblical" case for change in the Way, their efforts were invalid, IHO. Never mind that he offered nothing biblically practical or specific himself.
I wanted to bring this up because as I read along here, starting to use that terminology appears to be defining what goes on here on GS in a context. I'd like to confirm that that context is valid.
Plenty of Bible-Bobbing goes on here, and verses tossed back and forth to validate various positions. A lot of what's quoted is 1,000's of years ago, written in different times and about different circumstance. How any one idea (or verse if that word is too repugnant for anyone) stacks up today in application is up for grabs. Simply because something was said or done a certain way at one time doesn't automatically mean it applies to anything specific today - it might in fact be true but does it have anything to do with what it's being applied to? Or is it being laid over something today incorrectly. ("God says don't be proud, pride comes before a fall, and you're proud, and you're going to fall"..........assumes the person being addressed IS actually prideful. Are they? says who?)
Moral: of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong;
Identifying conduct as right or wrong has to be based on a standard. Once the standard is accepted, conduct can be evaluated. There has to be a measure.
From what I read here the measure IS biblical in two ways - on a per verse basis, ie "the bible says this and to do that and etc." and on a "common sense" basis, where something (though written long ago) is understood to be applicable today because it deals with something everyone can accept as a standard with or without that reference - "don't lie" is a commandment, but we'd all likely agree to lie is wrong with or without a verse, Christian or not.
Anyhoo - hopefully the use of "moral" objections isn't lessening the strength of the points being made. Moral judgment is the outcome of a standard being recognized and applied. And if violated, recognized.
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JeffSjo
Hi Socks,
I hope my use of the term "moral outrage" doesn't weaken the point either. When I think about these issues I don't think of the term "moral outrage".
I think of cusswords.
I think of word like scummy, degenerate, vile, repulsive, abusive, repugnant, abominable, leacherous, despicable, etc. etc.
If it would make the point better in this discussion I'd gladly replace the phrase " moral outrage" with any other that communicates better.
(added in editing)
Now that I'm thinking about it I am flabergasted and amazed that Chris Geer said that no one could make a "BIBLICAL" case for change of TWI. Don't get me wrong because plenty of folks here know many more details than me, but at least that's a little indication that at least someone was interested in change.
Here was TWI going to hell-in-a-handbasket and no one could make a case for change.
I try real hard not to get worked up, but NOBODY COULD MAKE A BIBLICAL CASE FOR TWI TO CHANGE?
What kind of convuluted, retarded kind of logic was at work there?
NOBODY COULD MAKE A BIBLICAL ARGUMENT FOR TWI TO CHANGE?
I'VE HEARD SOME STUPID THINGS BEING SAID IN MY LIFE, BUT THAT IS ABOUT THE MOST INFURIATINGLY STUPID THING I'VE EVER HEARD.
Who was handling God's Word those days? Couldn't they figure out that it's biblically correct to get rid of the minister-rapists? How about the minister-abusers? How about it being biblically correct to get rid of the minister-adulterors?
IF ANYONE WAS SERIOUSLY LOOKING FOR A BIBLICAL CASE FOR TWI TO CHANGE AND THEY COULD NOT FIND IT ....... I'M SORRY EVERYONE, THAT' SIMPLY THE STUPIDEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD!!!!!
(Straight sacasm here as I mock those leaders here)
God's Word Has everything YOU need for life and Godliness, but we can't figure out how to make a biblical case to change the ministry. So we're going to go full steam ahead straight into the freaking toilet and take as many of you followers down with us as we can. Don't break ranks anyone, look not to the right hand or the left. Just go straight into the toilet, don't question your leadership either.
I'M REALLY GLAD THAT YOU SHARED THAT SOCKS, BECAUSE FOR THE FIRST MOMENT IN MY LIFE I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR CHRIS GEER, AND IF HE SAID WHAT YOU SAY HE DID THEN HE DOESN'T DESERVE ANY RESPECT UNTIL HE OPENLY AND HONESTLY COMES TO TERMS WITH ONE OF THE ALL TIME STUPIDEST THINGS SAID BY A HUMAN BEING EVER.
That's enough from me now, I trust that my opinion is clear enough on this matter.
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What The Hey
All this discussion over "somebody's morality" proves that what exists in the church today are political liberals who want a "moral Jesus" stripped of grace.
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rascal
Snort...TWI leaders were the scum of the earth, they destroyed lives, they were the PERFECT example of everything that a false prophet/wolf in sheeps clothing ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour....and so let`s ignore ALL of that and INSTEAD.... attack some nebulous un named church and make up stories about political liberals.....and pretend that they want a moral Jesus stripped if grace.
That is so nuts...so typically twi.
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rascal
HERES an idea!!!
How bout you folks whom don`t want people annalyzing your sins as twi participants REPENT! How about you apologize!!! How about you seek to make amends with folks where possible!!! THEN golly, you won`t have to be mad at people for being completely disgusted by what you did to them. Wowzer ...and the that would eliminate the necessity of constantly making excuses for your behavior and that of your leaders!!
The healing on both sides could begin!!
What a novel concept! How brilliant!! Wait ... it`s in the scriptures!! That makes it even more recomended :)
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JeffSjo
Hi Rascal,
While you were responding to WTH I edited my last post, I just don't want you to miss it.
(edited to stay on topic)
I gladly forgive the Rev. Chris Geer if he did say the stupidest thing by a human being ever, even if it isn't technically the STUPIDEST I gladly forgive him and hold no grudge.
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rascal
Thanks Jeff, you make some very good points :)
Would you believe that I have seen far stupider statements attributed to that same man by posters here?? That in addition to being incredibly stupid, according to accounts, that fellow was unconscionably cruel, graphically nasty to the point of making one want to throw up with his supposed marriage counceling.
He was also the person that was reputed on more than one web site to have given girls a drink on the bus .. for them only to later awake while being sexually assaulted by wierwill@??... talk about a conscience seared with a hot iron..w!erwille`s right hand man...the repository for his supposed final instructions....ugh
and HE still runs a group proclaiming to teach the *truth* a group that is still actively hurting people if the accounts here are to be believed. What a scum bucket...
Are we going to trust these guys?? Are we going to cut them any slack?? EVER??? Are we going to believe for one instant that men that could do this....had any honest desire to help people??? Can we by any WILDEST stretch of the imagination believe that they have changed without a public apology and restitution????
If it was anybody else other than the founders of an organization that we personally invested our hearts and souls into, we would be decrying their abuse and cruelty with outrage.
I think we are reluctant to come to grips with the truth of what these men did because we personally don`t want to admit being duped by con men :(
We owe it to the unsuspecting, to share what we whom have had personal experience with these fiends.
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What The Hey
First - what makes you think they have to repent? They (whatever TWI participants you happen to be referring to) probably don't know you so they don't owe you an apology. On the otherhand (if they do know you) that only indicates they don't value the relationship between you and them enough to repent or to apologize.
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rascal
What makes me think that they have to repent...hmmm could it be SCRIPTURES say that it is required??? Now granted, if you are not a Christian, that will not be much of a recommendation :)
I absolutely believe with every fiber of my being that the perpetrators don`t value a relationship enough to apologize...(I have to say that I have never read more honest words spoken from you WTH) They hold absolutely NO regard for their brothers and sisters in Christ. (though I have my doubts if the perpetrators ARE actually brothers) No esteem what so ever. ....else they NEVER could have done what they did in the FIRST place to those entrusted to their care. .. nor would any person of character, integrity, and decency.
Those whom were held in so little regard that twi leaders used and destroyed without conscience....Those whom were shattered and tossed aside when their usefulness exhausted like so much garbage, are the very same people that God tells us the shepherd would leave the 99 in search for the one precious lost.
I KNOW that the perpetrators don`t value the people who were used and destroyed enough to repent and apologize. THAT much is crystal clear.
I know that knowledge aquired in twi puffs one up,. If however, ones arrogance allows them to sin without conscience.... Fine, but why try to justify ones self and actions to anybody else? Most of us can see past the lies and bull crap and simply don`t buy it any more.
Most of us have had contact with genuine Christians since leaving the posers and pretenders in twi. Most of us having met spirit filled Christians whom manifest the fruit of the spirit are now able to fully comprehend the travesty of twi and understand the putrid spiritual nature of these men of the flesh...AND have lost all respect and regard.
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J0nny Ling0
So, there are drugging rapists here at GSC who need to apologize. And if they are here, as you say, then they need not only apologize, but be arrested also...
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socks
Not a problem, Jeff. But as What the Hey has noted - it bugs some people like the dickens to hear the word "immoral". IMO that's because of a reluctance to properly evaluate and recognize wrong behavior that results from wrong decisions. It smacks of self-righteous judgment, hypocrisy. It's not.
All are sinners - everybody sins. So goes the biblical case. That's not an excuse, it's a reason. More a condition really. Don't expect a pig to fly, don't expect a horse to deal cards, don't expect mankind to be anything but what it is.
When a person's conduct reflects wrong choice, it is what it is. Not recognizing it and treating it properly is wrong in and of itself. It doesn't matter that "we all sin". The standard being accepted defines the rule of law. If it's God's law, man's law, my dog's law, doesn't matter. Not giving it it's due shows a disrespect for the standard, whatever or whoever's it is.
I heard a man at church, in the study group I attend, fluffing off "moral" distinctions, then he turned right around and quoted the biblical standard for the point he wanted to make. It's a BS attitude IMO, refuting even when someone does the "right" thing, but doesn't do it with the right Holy Water sprinkled on it. I don't need anyone blessing my good deeds with their cross and telling me it's okay. Fuk that.
Geer - whole nother topic. He once stated he was ill suited for what he was trying to do. He was right.
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rascal
Are there?? *I* certainly didn`t say that.
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WhiteDove
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socks
Exception noted!
Forgiveness from God is a wonderful thing. Sin - cast outta sight. Gone. It's "as if I never did them", we're square. I have trouble accepting that at times, but it appears that the account has been settled. Big prop's to Jesus Christ. My account was in serious arrears. The phone was ringing and I knew who it was. Wasnt I surprised when I finally answered?
Something had to be forgiven, reconciled. Stuff I recognize. Stuff I don't recognize. One blanket covered all and I sleep warm at night.
Sometimes. Feeling chilly? Must be a reason.
My ongoing ineptitude requires constant recognition on my part for the process that's provided that reconciliation. My "hope" is in what's to come - it's clearly in the fact that while I embrace my redemption I don't - won't - always live by it. It's like a time-continuum thingie - I can't reach a point where what I was going to do tomorrow wont happen if what happens tomorrow is what caused an event of the past. I may choose differently because of it but I will be exactly who I am at any given point along the way. Everything comes together at a point in the future where everything is reconciled once and for all. "Grace", "mercy". Peace in the valley.
In the meantime, I will rely on the kindness of strangers and they on me. I dont have to forgive anyone, but expecting that others wont have the same range of experience that I know I do is unrealistic. It will be difficult sometimes. The process of redemption wasnt exactly a walk in the part. How I choose to apply what I believe are the hmm, best practices, in life, is up to me.
Discussing the finer points of forgiveness is good, but whether any of us ever do it on the scale of God and Jesus Christ is a whole nother kettle of shrimp. Someone says theyre sorry, someone else doesnt. Whatever. My advice - do what youre gonna do and get on with it if you can and I dont say that lightly. Easier said than done, but when said all of this gets a little hmmmmmmmmmm....long. Including this fish wrap.
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alfakat
as usual, well put, socks. sometimes we, or mostly "we", want the "all or nothin'" approach from the song in Oklahoma. As each year pases by, I realize how futile that all is.
But when someone or ones step up and say " I, or we, have The TRUTH" or some other such nonsense, THEN they are going to be held to a HIGHER standard. Or, in another way of speaking, it tends to become more black/ white, all or nothin. If one does not wish to be held to that standard and wishes to proclaim, loosely speaking, "what's a little sinnin' amongst friends (or congregants)" then that group or leader is fair game to be brought down, exposed, what have you by quote MORAL OUTRAGE end quote.
or as my old man usta say, you can't have it both ways. You cannot state, or heavily imply, that you have all the answers not known in 20 centuries and then have a secret, anything goes standard for those who can handle it. WHY???? well, mostly cuz' of what socks said -- we are what we are, mankind is fallen and needs the help, and the moral standard that goes with, that God provided in His wonderful Son Jesus. To deny that and say that with super-duper, triple top-secret knowledge, one can become free from any responsibility to live up to the one who set the standard, the framework and the deliverance in the first place, is simply the repackaging of the oldest lie as something brand shiny new. Did the Lord God really say.....hey, if you only knew more, you would be just like HIM...the only one who had ever followed that path before ended up being booted with all his buddies. Secret knowledge produces open sin, apparently
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excathedra
excellent recent posts here, thank you
EXCELLENT
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excathedra
alfie, i pray for you every day, to stay in this life
i love you so much
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excathedra
jonny, are you so comfortable in your position or "take" on things that you can reply with (what appears to be) ignorance and also such rudeness at the same time ?
--
forget about forgiveness and jesus christ for a moment ?
did you read the above posts about being a moral person ?
can you see that "dr. wierwille" was so far from being morally correct or kind or good ?
what does THAT mean ?
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J0nny Ling0
That was for Rascal when she vowed to be like Jesus, turning over the tables of the money changers, using whips and such. Yeah, I can just see Rascal with her whips and storm trooper boots kicking over tables and that. Hard not to roll my eyes, ya know?
Of course I see it! I have said it over and over again that VPW blew it and used and abused people! It's just that I think that forgiveness and moving on is way more productive that "stewing over the past"! But I guess you don't see that when I say it...sigh...
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excathedra
i'd probably see it a lot better if you didn't comment on it :)
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rascal
That was a complete mis characterization of my post...again
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excathedra
well as tom tuttle's dad always used to say....
fruck the frucking fruckers
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What The Hey
QUOTE(Jonny Lingo @ Feb 12 2008, 10:07 PM)
So, there are drugging rapists here at GSC who need to apologize. And if they are here, as you say, then they need not only apologize, but be arrested also...
You certainly did!! You said it right there in post# 256:
Mr. Lingo then went beyond that by also mentioning something about being arrested.
But you said there were TWI participants here that had to: REPENT! and apologize!!! -- and make amends.
For your information:
1. I am not a TWI participant. I haven't been since 1991.
2. I don't have to: REPENT, make amends, or apologize - not to you - or to anybody else at GSC. Why?
Because I haven't done anything to you (or to anyone else at GSC for that matter) that requires me to: REPENT, make amends or apologize for.
In fact - I don't believe we have even ever personally met one another - at a GSC gathering or while in TWI! - the same thing goes for many other posters here at GSC.
... That's why ...
3. I am not mad at anyone here - but I certainly think someone here maybe very
.
Just why do I think someone here is very
?
Because I have a hard time seeing why anyone here could possibly be: (to put it in your own words) "completely disgusted by what I did to them" - namely for reasons #1 and #2 cited above.
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WordWolf
*reads the preceeding posts*
As you showed, she did not.
The words "drugging rapists" were neither implicit nor explicit.
And if you don't even feel the need to apologize to God Almighty for ANYTHING you did in twi, well,
all I can say is,
that says a lot.
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