Forgiveness is something with which I continue to wrestle. Yet, I have learned that it is simply letting go of the hurt so I can get on with my life today instead of clinging to yesterday's pain.
Geisha...you said that habitual sin is another matter. Perhaps you could clarify what you mean. When asked if seven times would be a sufficient number for one forgive to his brother, Jesus said 70 x 7. Would He do less or would He do much more? I only bring this up because we humans have our weaknesses, things with which we continue to struggle with and often come up short in dealing with them. To pass judgment on someone who is caught up in an addiction or continues to respond to others unkindly because of the abuse or abandonment that the person suffered as a child, perhaps is more revealing of the heart.
Forgiveness is something with which I continue to wrestle. Yet, I have learned that it is simply letting go of the hurt so I can get on with my life today instead of clinging to yesterday's pain.
Geisha...you said that habitual sin is another matter. Perhaps you could clarify what you mean. When asked if seven times would be a sufficient number for one forgive to his brother, Jesus said 70 x 7. Would He do less or would He do much more? I only bring this up because we humans have our weaknesses, things with which we continue to struggle with and often come up short in dealing with them. To pass judgment on someone who is caught up in an addiction or continues to respond to others unkindly because of the abuse or abandonment that the person suffered as a child, perhaps is more revealing of the heart.
Oenophile,
I would never pass judgement on one wrestling with addiction or such issues as you have described. First off, sin is God's domain, and I believe He looks on and knows the heart. Second, I have a beam in my own eye that needs plucking.
I was speaking of the people in TWI who continued to manipulate, rape and abuse in God's name. A very specific set of people.
Again, who are these people? Are they my brothers? That is why I said we would probably disagree on who they really are.
The bible is so clear on who they are. At least to me. I am not going to condone that behavior or wink at it. Not if I truly believe they lead people away from God. Not if I truly believe they are the false believers the bible speaks of so pointedly. Ravenous wolves.
Jesus called them a brood of Vipers. . . told them their end was hell. Paul said their end is destruction. . . . We are not to bear this beautifully. . . Peter spoke of them. . . John spoke of them. . . .Jude spoke of them. . .
Their sins revealed their hearts. Turning the grace of God into licentiousness. . . . hidden reefs in your love feast. Clouds without water. . . trees without fruit. . . doubly dead. . . . uprooted. . . wild waves of the sea. . . casting up their own shame like foam. . . wandering stars. . . . unreasoning animals. . . (Not my words)
We are not to be ignorant. If you stumbled across VP panting away on some poor drugged girl who TRUSTED him as a MOG. Would you pass by and say "Maybe you had a bad childhood?" "I forgive you"?
What is the difference in forgiving them now? There is NO repentance --- NO change of heart.
LCM saw women he wanted. . . . He destroyed marriages to get them. If he repented, changed, and did NOT continue in that behavior. I would gladly forgive him. No questions asked.
Repentance means turning from sin--changing your mind resulting in a change of action or behavior!
Seems to me it would take some serious moral relativity to sweep this stuff away with "our" idea of forgivness.
There is Judgement reserved for them. . . not forgivness. . . Not God winking and saying "No problem".
I put it in God's hands. . . . but, I don't wink at it either.
And while we are at it. What about those who stood up and actually stopped bearing it beautifully??? What was the response to them??
To be held under house arrest with guns and dogs on their children, their personal items held ransom??
We are to be on our guard. . . . not carried away. . . . not bear them beautifully. . . snatch others from the fire.. . . but not get singed in the process. . . or even having the smell of smoke on us. . .
It is up to God to grant repentance. . . . so that they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil . . . having been held captive by him to do his(the devils) will.
Guns and dogs??
Come on! What are we actually talking about here? Brothers in Christ?? On what PLANET?
If God does not forgive them and reserves a "special" place for them. . . . are we to forgive them without change in what they do and teach?? . . . . and know better than God?
Why does He even warn us about them?
It might be difficult to reconcile who they really are and what we were involved in--especially when we still adhere to many of their doctrines and teachings. I submit it is fairly clear.
They are the ones the bible speaks of. . . ungodly. . . morally perverted. . . deny Christ. . . defile the flesh. . . rebellious. . . ignorant. . . self seeking. . . arrogant speakers. . . cause division. . . worldly minded. . . without the spirit. . . savage wolves. . . they draw away. . . lovers of self. . . . lovers of money. . . . boastful. . . without self-control. . . . conceited. . . . lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.
It is possible to pray for them. . . to want them to change. . . but TWI STILL teaches the same damning heresies. The same Christ denying doctrine. The same garbage that leads people AWAY from God.
VP died in it. His kids are trying to resurrect it. . . . TWI is stilled mired in it up to their ears.
Always learning but never able to come to a recognition of THE truth. Who is the truth?? Jumping from one cult or false teaching to another. . . without ever coming to Jesus. . .
There are perilous false teachings that can't save, but do damn. . . . that is what TWI and those who spew this filth do. . . . lead people astray.
God does not look on that lightly. . . neither do I nor should any of us.
These people used the grace of God to justify evil. . . they destroyed people to pursue pleasure. . . they abused to gain money. . . they raped and defiled . . . bad enough on its own. . . they did it in a Holy God's name. Oh my goodness. . . just consider it. . .
When our Saviour Jesus Christ talked to Peter about how many times he should forgive he doesnt have a seminar or a post on just who and for what he should forgive for he says forgive .
the commandment to love as HE loves us (HE DIED FOR US!) is rather strong language on what the condition should be.
See Gods love is just that big !if hate is where your mind is at it is difficult to find Gods love while the seeking of vengenance in the heart.
the hard heart can increase and bitterness is rampant and peace is gone .
everyone has been at that place, and the Lord asks us to pray when it happens to each one of us.
it does not hurt the other party that one is filled with angry feelings toward them and if they chose not to change , what or how do you think you can force another to do to be different ?
that is why forgivness is a personal feeling that a disciple can work on for her/his self only, Jesus brings great comfort in times of trouble .
we can not change how other behave, and trying to control people is just what got so many in trouble while in twi.
Jesus bring a sword and asks us to have peace and faith.
I stand by what I said. I do not bear them beautifully. I won't be admonished to.
Their judgement is already spoken of. . . . I am not the one who judges them. I am not ignorant of who they are. . . THAT is what got me into trouble in the first place.
I can pray for their repentance, I can't forgive them their sins . . . they are against a HOLY God. They do this stuff in His name! I do not condone it, wink at it, or brush it aside.
Strong language like John 8 when Jesus said "You are of your father. . . the devil?" Brood of Vipers. . . Whited Sepulchres?
Here is some strong language for you. . . .
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
Suppose a prophet or one who foretells by dreams should appear among you and show you a sign or wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder should come to pass concerning what he said to you, namely, “Let us follow other gods” – gods whom you have not previously known – “and let us serve them.” 3 You must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer, for the Lord your God will be testing you to see if you love him with all your mind and being. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and revere only him; and you must observe his commandments, obey him, serve him, and remain loyal...
Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. 29 I know that after I am gone fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Even from among your own group men will arise, teaching perversions of the truth to draw the disciples away after them.
1:3 As I urged you when I was leaving for Macedonia, stay on in Ephesus 1 to instruct 2 certain people not to spread false teachings, 3 1:4 nor to occupy themselves with myths and interminable genealogies. 4 Such things promote useless speculations rather than God’s redemptive plan 5 that operates by faith. 1:5 But the aim of our instruction 6 is love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith. 7 1:6 Some have strayed from these and turned away to empty discussion. 1:7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or the things they insist on so confidently.
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel – 7 not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned...
2:14 Remind people of these things and solemnly charge them 2 before the Lord 3 not to wrangle over words. This is of no benefit; it just brings ruin on those who listen. 4 2:15 Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately. 5 2:16 But avoid profane chatter, 6 because those occupied with it will stray further and further into ungodliness, 7 2:17 and their message will spread its infection 8 like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are in this group. 9 2:18 They have strayed from the truth 10 by saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are undermining some people’s faith. 2:19 However, God’s solid foundation remains standing, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” 11 and “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord 12 must turn away from evil.”
2:20 Now in a wealthy home 13 there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also ones made of wood and of clay, and some are for honorable use, but others for ignoble use. 14 2:21 So if someone cleanses himself of such behavior, 15 he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart, useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh!
1:10 For there are many rebellious people, idle talkers, and deceivers, especially those with Jewish connections, 2 1:11 who must be silenced because they mislead whole families by teaching for dishonest gain what ought not to be taught. 1:12 A certain one of them, in fact, one of their own prophets, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 1:13 Such testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them 1:16 . . . . . They profess to know God but with their deeds they deny him, since they are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed.
This is what the sovereign Lord says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit but have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets have become like jackals among the ruins. . .
“Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit.
I could go on. . . . what is the point--forgive--forget---condone--whatever. . . I will just call those who use God's grace, deny Jesus and maim in the name of God exactly what they are.
I will NEVER follow or excuse people like that again.
BTW--They put people in PRISON for some of the things done by TWI leadership.
Yes cman that is Exactly what I meant by moral relativity.
I must say that I agree with you that people who cloak themselves with the name of God (or Allah for that matter) in order to realize their lusts, i.e. power, wealth or sexual proclivities, are a separate category apart from the human condition. The same goes for those who engage in genocide or seek to hold on to political power by any means necessary regardless of the cost in terms of suffering it causes their people, i.e. Robert Mugabe.
I do not define forgivness as a reconciliation , Jesus is a personal Lord he deals with individuals were they truly live, God and our Saviour know what a person thinks and believes regardless of what we may understand to be their part in the plan.
I believe that is why Jesus tells to never seek vengence, be He will do it, but that takes trust in His mighty throne as King of Kings.. and more important releasing the control people think they have over one another.
those who believe they aremini Christ's compete with the lord for his job . Jesus told his disciples to not glory over the devils but to glory in the fact we have life eternal etc.
For me it is about the attitude he had on how He commands we interact and witness to the world at large and basicly hate and power trips do not fit in his speech or testimony .As he lay dying He prayed for those who murdered him and forgave the guilty one that hung next to him on the cross.
it comes down to faith and grace and love . God loves His creation, He gives the role of Justice to christ not the rest of His children Iwould say for good reason. Taking matter in their own hands and demanding people to be good never really worked for God almighty much less those with attitudes that want to force change that are in the same boat with the rest of the sinners which would include ALL but the Risen christ. much conflict over who is who and how much they matter in the bible.
no one person is the winner or loser such is the attitude of religous folks who want to rule others using the name of God and the very grace christ paid for.
the bottom line unforgivness breeds angry bitter people who want to fix and repair a broken world that only Jesus and HIS LOVE can save.
I do not define forgivness as a reconciliation , Jesus is a personal Lord he deals with individuals were they truly live, God and our Saviour know what a person thinks and believes regardless of what we may understand to be their part in the plan.
I believe that is why Jesus tells to never seek vengence, be He will do it, but that takes trust in His mighty throne as King of Kings.. and more important releasing the control people think they have over one another.
those who believe they aremini Christ's compete with the lord for his job . Jesus told his disciples to not glory over the devils but to glory in the fact we have life eternal etc.
For me it is about the attitude he had on how He commands we interact and witness to the world at large and basicly hate and power trips do not fit in his speech or testimony .As he lay dying He prayed for those who murdered him and forgave the guilty one that hung next to him on the cross.
it comes down to faith and grace and love . God loves His creation, He gives the role of Justice to christ not the rest of His children Iwould say for good reason. Taking matter in their own hands and demanding people to be good never really worked for God almighty much less those with attitudes that want to force change that are in the same boat with the rest of the sinners which would include ALL but the Risen christ. much conflict over who is who and how much they matter in the bible.
no one person is the winner or loser such is the attitude of religous folks who want to rule others using the name of God and the very grace christ paid for.
the bottom line unforgivness breeds angry bitter people who want to fix and repair a broken world that only Jesus and HIS LOVE can save.
Interesting Pond that you do not equate forgiveness with reconciliation? What is it then?
It is true that God knows the intent of the heart. . . but, He didn't leave us ignorant as how to know people either. . . . by their fruit??
God does meet you where you are and then guess what? Commands you to turn around and go the other way!!! Repent?? Go and sin no more??
BTW The thief on the cross turned to the Lord. . . .repented. The other was hurling insults at Him. They were not both forgiven.
It is not like our actions do not affect others?? That is why we are admonished with moral standards. . . . it is not a big free for all. We are accountable to God for our actions. He tells us. . . "If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea."
God does not take this stuff lightly. Nor should we. Are we not His ambassadors?? We are told in this life to abhor evil. . . and for anyone to pass it off as grace or place the burden on the victim of evil behavior is shameful.
It is like telling the rape victim--the real issue is you and your lack of forgiveness. Not bringing the guilty person before a judge to be JUDGED!! Remember, God DOES place some execution of judgment in man's hands. Unbelieving hands to boot!! Romans 13. He bears not the sword in vain.
Not bearing evil is not "exacting vengance"--they are two differing things. Why do you think we have church discipline or laws?
The next step from it is all grace is "let sin abound". . . . p-a-r-t-y!! Been there--done that.
When Jesus speaks of judging lest ye be judged. . . He is clearly speaking of HYPOCRITICAL judgment. Not rational judgment! Where is the "hate and power trip" in saying abuse is wrong--I do not condone it--nor will wink at it. I am to abhor it!
Who is demanding people be good? Where is this coming from? Pointing out something wrong is now demanding someone be good? That is religious. . . right there. . . and a twisting of the intent and heart of the gospel.
Jesus always brings things back to the human condition. Always. So simply. He knew and knows the heart and intent of people.
Did you ever read the gospels? Do you notice what He says and does with the Pharisees? Tripped them up . . . called them names. . . exposed them?
Why? Didn't He love them too? Didn't He have to forgive them? Save them? He told them they were of their father the devil. . . . Jesus hated unbelief, spiritual pride, indifference to human need, hypocrisy, and impurity.
I think we just summed up TWI leadership. . . doesn't bode well they were fleecing instead of feeding the flock.
Don't know about you, but I don't want to be standing next to them on judgment day. I sure am not going to tell their victims they are bitter hateful people.
I think you might have your religious people a bit mixed up. I really do. . . .
Every person makes judgements every single day . I decide to accept jesus as Lord or not.
The preacher can speak of all the hell fire they want and if a person does not chose to think it is true it isnt for them.
An Ambassador is not a police force. Represent The love of God yet save Justice for the LORD only. big difference.
God wishes ALL to be saved to the uter most .. he loves HIS creation yet it is a personal choice to chose His will or to worship HIM , again no forcing or threating allowed in his will .
people make very wrong choices and that is the very reason Christ is needed today and forever.... people deny God people sin they play with the devil .
In my thoughts we have no choice but to chose life or death we can not fight Satan alone and must have his will if we deny the most LOVING God. that is why Jesus told them what they chose to do was from their father the devil.
I have made plenty of choices that belonged to satan in life the bible says we ALL have and the very mercy of God brought me redemption through Jesus christ.
My own spirit was a gift from God not anything i was good enough or better than that guy to earn.
it was the love and mercy and grace of God I am able to understand the things of God.
To spew hate and vengence back at the world isnt the solution , i was forgivien and Jesus says we are to for give others and love.
reconciliation as in joining in with behaviours you know to be wrong for YOUR walk with God is not a requirment of forgivness.
Do I think god forgives? yes . As far as repentance that is between a person and Jesus isnt it? I can not prove to no one I have a changed heart any more than i can prove God forgave me for anything.
Personaly I believe god and Jesus can get the job done, my instruction is to tell other of His wonderous LOVE and grace and mercy for all of mankind.
As far civil authorities of course we all want to live in order and decent society and we have political systems in place to maintain our society that has been a given for many years throuout mankind.... the church and state is quite seperate , I believe true Justice comes only from Jesus Christ.
When Jesus walked the earth as a man in the flesh many thought he should have taken on the political system of that day that didnt do gods will and they hoped he would begin a revolution and a war.
he didnt then and he wont now . this is not our day to win any position , we have already won a new kingdom a new life , to help people we offer the only solution we have and hate and critical analysis how who sins more often just isnt it.
It is very different. It has also somehow become part of the Christian values that expects people to forgive, forget and reconcile when the offender has only done the forgetting part and expects reconciliation because they are Christians. What a crock of crap.
Injustice? Should DISTURB us. . . Blaming the victim? Calling people bitter and hateful when they point out evil behavior? These are things that run contrary to our hearts. . . or they should.
Reminds me of the right wing evangelicals. Just does. Convenient Christianity.
You get any pagan or unbeliever with a modicum of decency and ask them if this is "Right" and they will tell you NO!!
I have to wonder when it was the bible told us to check OUR brains and hearts at the door before we enter.
Jesus didn't run around forgiving the Pharisees--He called them what they were. . . told them they were going to HELL. . . . VP did the SAME things they did. . . an outward appearance of Godliness. . . . inside a whole other story.
He sexually abused women in the NAME OF GOD! He tore people and their lives apart. . . so wide reaching we don't even know the extent. LCM caused a SUICIDE!!!! They were unrepentant. . . . didn't say "gee sorry". . . they kept justifying it!
Hello?
How are the ones who point this out the hateful ones? Again, on what planet?
I'd also like to point out to Pond that I choose not to forgive the evil upper echelon of twi, I'm not a bitter person although at times I get angry, and that I can make a difference in the world that Jesus can't, even though the world is, as you say, "broken".
Injustice? Should DISTURB us. . . Blaming the victim? Calling people bitter and hateful when they point out evil behavior? These are things that run contrary to our hearts. . . or they should.
Reminds me of the right wing evangelicals. Just does. Convenient Christianity.
You get any pagan or unbeliever with a modicum of decency and ask them if this is "Right" and they will tell you NO!!
I have to wonder when it was the bible told us to check OUR brains and hearts at the door before we enter.
Jesus didn't run around forgiving the Pharisees--He called them what they were. . . told them they were going to HELL. . . . VP did the SAME things they did. . . an outward appearance of Godliness. . . . inside a whole other story.
He sexually abused women in the NAME OF GOD! He tore people and their lives apart. . . so wide reaching we don't even know the extent. LCM caused a SUICIDE!!!! They were unrepentant. . . . didn't say "gee sorry". . . they kept justifying it!
Hello?
How are the ones who point this out the hateful ones? Again, on what planet?
I never said anyone who points out evil behaviour hateful or bitter I said to store unforgivness can cause a hard heart and bitterness within a person. Please do not twist what I write.
I do not think the bible tells us to check our brain or heart "at the door". by the way what door are you talking about here?
Jesus christ is the one who calls us to LOVE one another and forgive, as far who is hateful and wrong I believe I read that it is your position that you get to decide. He specificly says to love our enemys .
I decide only for my life what is wrong or right Im done with trying to control others, I can forgive and love because of JESUS and what He has given me not by any doing or not doing on my part or anyone eles.
God is all about loving us and Jesus laid down his life to become KING of KINGS. I do not want the throne I trust HIM to complete what mankind so desperately needs. I can not helpmyself or anyone by hate but the LOVE and peace He bought with his life is what I can only help to inspire within my own self and then maybe others will see the true witness of why Jesus is the reason we can have peace.
I never said anyone who points out evil behaviour hateful or bitter I said to store unforgivness can cause a hard heart and bitterness within a person. Please do not twist what I write.
I do not think the bible tells us to check our brain or heart "at the door". by the way what door are you talking about here?
Jesus christ is the one who calls us to LOVE one another and forgive, as far who is hateful and wrong I believe I read that it is your position that you get to decide. He specificly says to love our enemys .
I decide only for my life what is wrong or right Im done with trying to control others, I can forgive and love because of JESUS and what He has given me not by any doing or not doing on my part or anyone eles.
God is all about loving us and Jesus laid down his life to become KING of KINGS. I do not want the throne I trust HIM to complete what mankind so desperately needs. I can not helpmyself or anyone by hate but the LOVE and peace He bought with his life is what I can only help to inspire within my own self and then maybe others will see the true witness of why Jesus is the reason we can have peace.
Vengence belongs to the Lord.
Are you talking about forgiving a brother when he repents or forgiving unrepentant false teachers? WHO are you speaking of forgiving?
The ones who are wolves in sheeps clothing like VP and company---the ones who SCATTER the flock?? The ones who USE God and the bible to make merchandise of us?
Just exactly who is it. . . . you are telling us we are to forgive?? Who are you judging as having stored unforgivness in their hearts. . . the generic we?? Or just me?
God demands REPENTANCE in His forgivness. You can't be forgiven without acknowledging your sin. . . If we CONFESS our sins. . . . he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.
What? I can forgive VP his unrepentant sins against a Holy God?? I have that power?? Do I have the power to absolve him of his evil? My saying I forgive him for abusing others in the name of God or leading people AWAY from Jesus will heal my heart??
He disgusts me. He always will. That doesn't make me BITTER--I love God's rightness and abhor evil.
Paul told Philemon to forgive Onesimus because he was now a true brother. . . Paul had begotten him while he was in prison. HE didn't appeal to Philemon to take back Onesimus just because he HAD to forgive him. . . but that he was now useful--transformed by God's grace.
Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul had the Corinthian church remove an ACTUAL brother. . . he was judged by Paul. He was not tolerated within the church.
Of course I get to decide what is evil ---- God expects me too. I am to discern evil.
It does say to love your enemies and bless those that persecute you. . . love them. . . not wink and nod at evil.
You call it hate. . . I call it being a watchmen.
And Pond, I have prayed to God that He not hold these sins against these men on my account. I know what it means when the bible says it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
But, I still must trust His judgment which is already spoken of concerning these leaders.
For me forgiveness has to be real--I can't fake it and have no religious reason to try. People I love, people in my life like family, are easy for me to forgive--noone I surround myself with acts with malice toward me. They re just human, notperfect.
In my TWI past I do believe there were those that acted with malice. Those I don't forgive, but then I have no relationship with them to see if they've changed and I have no interest in rebuilding a false friendship.
Others from my TWI past are alot like I was back in my TWI days, followers forced by emotion (fear) and beliefs to think and act in certain ways--I have no problem forgiving them. I see them as being in a trap.
We agree then that whom God choses to forgive is between God and the individual .
jesus is speaking to Peter about forgivness when Peter wanted to know who he (meaning Peter not God) should forgive.
how many times should he forgive and to whom (enemys even!) not only forgive but love.
one can be disgusted about anothers action and never ever want to interact with another again, that is up to your choices in life and who is another to say? we all will sit at the judgement one day and Jesus will let us know our own punishments and rewards then.
somtimes sadly even now many find they pay for a hard and bitter heart. often times to late to make the amends we wish we could have.
A watchman looks for evil and clearly Jesus speaks of what we are to do in our interactions with one another as he set the standard, the watchmen I would say looks not to punish and hate another but to love and forgive and serve one another as christ showed us to do.
but if you want to point a finger and scream tilll your blue i still think it does nothing to change evil to those bent on destruction , but Love and forgivness has always paved a way to repentance and true change .
Jesus came to save sinners not slap them silly or to form a group who gets to decide who is a worse sinner, God wills all be saved from the evil one.
The records i read of sinners in the bible knew they had some issues in life with one another or their behaviours and that is what and how the bible is recorded how God turned things around for them in spite of what they did . God loves us very much.
Do i think Justice is possible ? oh yes most positive about it actualy but not with hate only with love and forgivness.
In my mind I draw a line between those who were sincere and those who knew it was a scam...
For those who honestly thought they were doing God's will...I extend a blanket forgiveness. As far as I'm concerned, they get a free pass...
...The others...no dice. If you knowingly lied in God's name and abused people...screw you.
Life is precious...to knowingly lead someone down a path that will change their future for the worse is a sin that I have no tolerance for. Wierwille was a monster as far as I'm concerned...
Forgiveness is such a complicated issue... There seems to be many colors to it.
only God can forgive some one their sins so what is Christ talking about when he says to turn the other check
to forgive 70 times 7.
We do not hold the power to forgive a persons sins. so I wonder if it means more for you to understand what the person did and why. I do not believe for a minute that forgiving some one for an atrocity that they perpetrated on me means that I am to lower my guard and allow them to take advantage or hurt me again. Forgiving them does not ever mean that I need to continue on in their company and if that person is purposefully going out to do harm to others I believe it is my spiritual obligation to warn other people.
The more I read this thread though the more I realize I really do not understand what exactly Christ meant by forgiving others ... and now I do not trust any one else's study of the scripture and half the time I worry I am not reading it correctly myself.
if a person "sins" or hurts me I can forgive them as the Lord forgives me and as he commanded.
the relationship between God and His people is NOT a group thing we are like his children a family yes a group of sorts but He Knows each one so very well He sent a great teacher in Jesus to instruct us on how to live in His will. Then as our Father he raises us up to grow into the type of Son and daughters He knows is best for us God knows how we will be happy and blessed He is our father and He has a job to do with His children.
We agree then that whom God choses to forgive is between God and the individual .
jesus is speaking to Peter about forgivness when Peter wanted to know who he (meaning Peter not God) should forgive.
how many times should he forgive and to whom (enemys even!) not only forgive but love.
one can be disgusted about anothers action and never ever want to interact with another again, that is up to your choices in life and who is another to say? we all will sit at the judgement one day and Jesus will let us know our own punishments and rewards then.
somtimes sadly even now many find they pay for a hard and bitter heart. often times to late to make the amends we wish we could have.
A watchman looks for evil and clearly Jesus speaks of what we are to do in our interactions with one another as he set the standard, the watchmen I would say looks not to punish and hate another but to love and forgive and serve one another as christ showed us to do.
but if you want to point a finger and scream tilll your blue i still think it does nothing to change evil to those bent on destruction , but Love and forgivness has always paved a way to repentance and true change .
Jesus came to save sinners not slap them silly or to form a group who gets to decide who is a worse sinner, God wills all be saved from the evil one.
The records i read of sinners in the bible knew they had some issues in life with one another or their behaviours and that is what and how the bible is recorded how God turned things around for them in spite of what they did . God loves us very much.
Do i think Justice is possible ? oh yes most positive about it actualy but not with hate only with love and forgivness.
how do you think it should be done?
Pond,
God actually tells us about false teachers. He tells us they have a reservation with him. . . so to speak. Their judgment is not idle. I gave you the verses. . . I gave you ALL the names used to describe them. What else is it you think will happen?
We are not speaking of a brother here. TWI was not a Christian organization. Vp was not mislead. . . he was wicked. What he taught was FALSE. . . what he did to people was EVIL. HE was a false teacher. . . . teaching(You guessed it) false doctrine.
When Paul said: They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. But I am not surprised! Even Satan disquises himself as an angel of light. So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
. . . was he being disobedient to Jesus and His commandment to forgive? Was he?
When I left for Macedonia, I urged you to stay there in Ephesus and stop those whose teaching is contrary to the truth.
We are speaking about two different things here. . . at cross purposes. Should they repent. . . . meaning CHANGE then no problem. VP didn't change. . . he waxed worse and worse. . . .bolder and bolder.
Why is it you want people to forgive that? Did Paul? Did Jesus? Does God?
On the other hand, if you do not believe VP was a false teacher, but a brother, then let's look at how Jesus said to deal with an offending brother. For the sake of argument, let's just say RAPE is offensive. Matthew 18
4 steps. 1. Show him his fault privately.
2. Take one or two with you
3. Bring him before the whole church
If he does not respond to all those attempts at reconciliation,
4. Is to REMOVE him from the assembly and he is to be regarded as a tax collector or gentile.
BTW. . What Jesus told Peter was . . . "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."
Do you notice here that Jesus says. . . be on your guard? "Your brother" That if he repents after you rebuke him. . . forgive him. IF he returns 7 times a day saying "I repent".
Do you understand we are not to gloss over sin? We rebuke it in others? We know evil from good? Rebuking someone in sin is love. God does it. HE loves us. What is love?
Not that it doesn't matter. . . .that it does matter to us. That people are not seperated from God or causing issues with their sin.
It is expected that those in the world cause Christians to stumble. . . and they will be judged for it. But if a fellow believer leads one into sin--it is better a rock be tied around their neck.
So either way. . . . some vauge idea of blanket forgivness for evil. . . just doesn't fly.
Causing a brother or sister in Christ to stumble or sin, (Purposely leading someone astray)is more than simply an offensive act against that person, it is a serious offense against the Lord Himself.
Now, how much more is it. . . . when one justifys it in the name of God.
Pond, this is serious stuff with God.
Look a bit closer at what He tells us to be aware of. . . . to know. . . . to understand.
Jesus saves sinners when they repent and turn from sin. If a person does not repent they are spurning Christ offer.
The love we are talking about that paved the way is that God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son. That is what it is. In order to accept Him, we must repent.
Yes, God wants all saved. . . He tells us how. . . throught repentance and belief in Jesus.
That is the LOVE of God. It is enough. That is how God reveals His love. How is that slapping anyone silly? Telling them they need to repent?? Too much fire and brimstone for you. That we are sinners and must STOP.
There is no group formed to judge who is the worst sinner. . . but I can tell you what the bible says about false teachers and sinning brothers. . .
You seem to miss the whole point about a Holy God who can't stand sin and had to send His Son to die because of it. . . we too are to despise sin as well. Not only in our own lives, but all sin.
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oenophile
Forgiveness is something with which I continue to wrestle. Yet, I have learned that it is simply letting go of the hurt so I can get on with my life today instead of clinging to yesterday's pain.
Geisha...you said that habitual sin is another matter. Perhaps you could clarify what you mean. When asked if seven times would be a sufficient number for one forgive to his brother, Jesus said 70 x 7. Would He do less or would He do much more? I only bring this up because we humans have our weaknesses, things with which we continue to struggle with and often come up short in dealing with them. To pass judgment on someone who is caught up in an addiction or continues to respond to others unkindly because of the abuse or abandonment that the person suffered as a child, perhaps is more revealing of the heart.
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geisha779
Oenophile,
I would never pass judgement on one wrestling with addiction or such issues as you have described. First off, sin is God's domain, and I believe He looks on and knows the heart. Second, I have a beam in my own eye that needs plucking.
I was speaking of the people in TWI who continued to manipulate, rape and abuse in God's name. A very specific set of people.
Again, who are these people? Are they my brothers? That is why I said we would probably disagree on who they really are.
The bible is so clear on who they are. At least to me. I am not going to condone that behavior or wink at it. Not if I truly believe they lead people away from God. Not if I truly believe they are the false believers the bible speaks of so pointedly. Ravenous wolves.
Jesus called them a brood of Vipers. . . told them their end was hell. Paul said their end is destruction. . . . We are not to bear this beautifully. . . Peter spoke of them. . . John spoke of them. . . .Jude spoke of them. . .
Their sins revealed their hearts. Turning the grace of God into licentiousness. . . . hidden reefs in your love feast. Clouds without water. . . trees without fruit. . . doubly dead. . . . uprooted. . . wild waves of the sea. . . casting up their own shame like foam. . . wandering stars. . . . unreasoning animals. . . (Not my words)
We are not to be ignorant. If you stumbled across VP panting away on some poor drugged girl who TRUSTED him as a MOG. Would you pass by and say "Maybe you had a bad childhood?" "I forgive you"?
What is the difference in forgiving them now? There is NO repentance --- NO change of heart.
LCM saw women he wanted. . . . He destroyed marriages to get them. If he repented, changed, and did NOT continue in that behavior. I would gladly forgive him. No questions asked.
Repentance means turning from sin--changing your mind resulting in a change of action or behavior!
Seems to me it would take some serious moral relativity to sweep this stuff away with "our" idea of forgivness.
There is Judgement reserved for them. . . not forgivness. . . Not God winking and saying "No problem".
I put it in God's hands. . . . but, I don't wink at it either.
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geisha779
And while we are at it. What about those who stood up and actually stopped bearing it beautifully??? What was the response to them??
To be held under house arrest with guns and dogs on their children, their personal items held ransom??
We are to be on our guard. . . . not carried away. . . . not bear them beautifully. . . snatch others from the fire.. . . but not get singed in the process. . . or even having the smell of smoke on us. . .
It is up to God to grant repentance. . . . so that they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil . . . having been held captive by him to do his(the devils) will.
Guns and dogs??
Come on! What are we actually talking about here? Brothers in Christ?? On what PLANET?
If God does not forgive them and reserves a "special" place for them. . . . are we to forgive them without change in what they do and teach?? . . . . and know better than God?
Why does He even warn us about them?
It might be difficult to reconcile who they really are and what we were involved in--especially when we still adhere to many of their doctrines and teachings. I submit it is fairly clear.
They are the ones the bible speaks of. . . ungodly. . . morally perverted. . . deny Christ. . . defile the flesh. . . rebellious. . . ignorant. . . self seeking. . . arrogant speakers. . . cause division. . . worldly minded. . . without the spirit. . . savage wolves. . . they draw away. . . lovers of self. . . . lovers of money. . . . boastful. . . without self-control. . . . conceited. . . . lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.
It is possible to pray for them. . . to want them to change. . . but TWI STILL teaches the same damning heresies. The same Christ denying doctrine. The same garbage that leads people AWAY from God.
VP died in it. His kids are trying to resurrect it. . . . TWI is stilled mired in it up to their ears.
Always learning but never able to come to a recognition of THE truth. Who is the truth?? Jumping from one cult or false teaching to another. . . without ever coming to Jesus. . .
There are perilous false teachings that can't save, but do damn. . . . that is what TWI and those who spew this filth do. . . . lead people astray.
God does not look on that lightly. . . neither do I nor should any of us.
These people used the grace of God to justify evil. . . they destroyed people to pursue pleasure. . . they abused to gain money. . . they raped and defiled . . . bad enough on its own. . . they did it in a Holy God's name. Oh my goodness. . . just consider it. . .
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pond
When our Saviour Jesus Christ talked to Peter about how many times he should forgive he doesnt have a seminar or a post on just who and for what he should forgive for he says forgive .
the commandment to love as HE loves us (HE DIED FOR US!) is rather strong language on what the condition should be.
See Gods love is just that big !if hate is where your mind is at it is difficult to find Gods love while the seeking of vengenance in the heart.
the hard heart can increase and bitterness is rampant and peace is gone .
everyone has been at that place, and the Lord asks us to pray when it happens to each one of us.
it does not hurt the other party that one is filled with angry feelings toward them and if they chose not to change , what or how do you think you can force another to do to be different ?
that is why forgivness is a personal feeling that a disciple can work on for her/his self only, Jesus brings great comfort in times of trouble .
we can not change how other behave, and trying to control people is just what got so many in trouble while in twi.
Jesus bring a sword and asks us to have peace and faith.
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cman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativity
just thought the term should be clear
carry on
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geisha779
I stand by what I said. I do not bear them beautifully. I won't be admonished to.
Their judgement is already spoken of. . . . I am not the one who judges them. I am not ignorant of who they are. . . THAT is what got me into trouble in the first place.
I can pray for their repentance, I can't forgive them their sins . . . they are against a HOLY God. They do this stuff in His name! I do not condone it, wink at it, or brush it aside.
Strong language like John 8 when Jesus said "You are of your father. . . the devil?" Brood of Vipers. . . Whited Sepulchres?
Here is some strong language for you. . . .
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
Suppose a prophet or one who foretells by dreams should appear among you and show you a sign or wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder should come to pass concerning what he said to you, namely, “Let us follow other gods” – gods whom you have not previously known – “and let us serve them.” 3 You must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer, for the Lord your God will be testing you to see if you love him with all your mind and being. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and revere only him; and you must observe his commandments, obey him, serve him, and remain loyal...
Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. 29 I know that after I am gone fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Even from among your own group men will arise, teaching perversions of the truth to draw the disciples away after them.
1:3 As I urged you when I was leaving for Macedonia, stay on in Ephesus 1 to instruct 2 certain people not to spread false teachings, 3 1:4 nor to occupy themselves with myths and interminable genealogies. 4 Such things promote useless speculations rather than God’s redemptive plan 5 that operates by faith. 1:5 But the aim of our instruction 6 is love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith. 7 1:6 Some have strayed from these and turned away to empty discussion. 1:7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or the things they insist on so confidently.
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel – 7 not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned...
2:14 Remind people of these things and solemnly charge them 2 before the Lord 3 not to wrangle over words. This is of no benefit; it just brings ruin on those who listen. 4 2:15 Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately. 5 2:16 But avoid profane chatter, 6 because those occupied with it will stray further and further into ungodliness, 7 2:17 and their message will spread its infection 8 like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are in this group. 9 2:18 They have strayed from the truth 10 by saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are undermining some people’s faith. 2:19 However, God’s solid foundation remains standing, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” 11 and “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord 12 must turn away from evil.”
2:20 Now in a wealthy home 13 there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also ones made of wood and of clay, and some are for honorable use, but others for ignoble use. 14 2:21 So if someone cleanses himself of such behavior, 15 he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart, useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh!
1:10 For there are many rebellious people, idle talkers, and deceivers, especially those with Jewish connections, 2 1:11 who must be silenced because they mislead whole families by teaching for dishonest gain what ought not to be taught. 1:12 A certain one of them, in fact, one of their own prophets, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 1:13 Such testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them 1:16 . . . . . They profess to know God but with their deeds they deny him, since they are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed.
This is what the sovereign Lord says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit but have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets have become like jackals among the ruins. . .
“Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit.
I could go on. . . . what is the point--forgive--forget---condone--whatever. . . I will just call those who use God's grace, deny Jesus and maim in the name of God exactly what they are.
I will NEVER follow or excuse people like that again.
BTW--They put people in PRISON for some of the things done by TWI leadership.
Yes cman that is Exactly what I meant by moral relativity.
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oenophile
Geisha,
I must say that I agree with you that people who cloak themselves with the name of God (or Allah for that matter) in order to realize their lusts, i.e. power, wealth or sexual proclivities, are a separate category apart from the human condition. The same goes for those who engage in genocide or seek to hold on to political power by any means necessary regardless of the cost in terms of suffering it causes their people, i.e. Robert Mugabe.
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pond
I do not define forgivness as a reconciliation , Jesus is a personal Lord he deals with individuals were they truly live, God and our Saviour know what a person thinks and believes regardless of what we may understand to be their part in the plan.
I believe that is why Jesus tells to never seek vengence, be He will do it, but that takes trust in His mighty throne as King of Kings.. and more important releasing the control people think they have over one another.
those who believe they aremini Christ's compete with the lord for his job . Jesus told his disciples to not glory over the devils but to glory in the fact we have life eternal etc.
For me it is about the attitude he had on how He commands we interact and witness to the world at large and basicly hate and power trips do not fit in his speech or testimony .As he lay dying He prayed for those who murdered him and forgave the guilty one that hung next to him on the cross.
it comes down to faith and grace and love . God loves His creation, He gives the role of Justice to christ not the rest of His children Iwould say for good reason. Taking matter in their own hands and demanding people to be good never really worked for God almighty much less those with attitudes that want to force change that are in the same boat with the rest of the sinners which would include ALL but the Risen christ. much conflict over who is who and how much they matter in the bible.
no one person is the winner or loser such is the attitude of religous folks who want to rule others using the name of God and the very grace christ paid for.
the bottom line unforgivness breeds angry bitter people who want to fix and repair a broken world that only Jesus and HIS LOVE can save.
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geisha779
Interesting Pond that you do not equate forgiveness with reconciliation? What is it then?
It is true that God knows the intent of the heart. . . but, He didn't leave us ignorant as how to know people either. . . . by their fruit??
God does meet you where you are and then guess what? Commands you to turn around and go the other way!!! Repent?? Go and sin no more??
BTW The thief on the cross turned to the Lord. . . .repented. The other was hurling insults at Him. They were not both forgiven.
It is not like our actions do not affect others?? That is why we are admonished with moral standards. . . . it is not a big free for all. We are accountable to God for our actions. He tells us. . . "If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea."
God does not take this stuff lightly. Nor should we. Are we not His ambassadors?? We are told in this life to abhor evil. . . and for anyone to pass it off as grace or place the burden on the victim of evil behavior is shameful.
It is like telling the rape victim--the real issue is you and your lack of forgiveness. Not bringing the guilty person before a judge to be JUDGED!! Remember, God DOES place some execution of judgment in man's hands. Unbelieving hands to boot!! Romans 13. He bears not the sword in vain.
Not bearing evil is not "exacting vengance"--they are two differing things. Why do you think we have church discipline or laws?
The next step from it is all grace is "let sin abound". . . . p-a-r-t-y!! Been there--done that.
When Jesus speaks of judging lest ye be judged. . . He is clearly speaking of HYPOCRITICAL judgment. Not rational judgment! Where is the "hate and power trip" in saying abuse is wrong--I do not condone it--nor will wink at it. I am to abhor it!
Who is demanding people be good? Where is this coming from? Pointing out something wrong is now demanding someone be good? That is religious. . . right there. . . and a twisting of the intent and heart of the gospel.
Jesus always brings things back to the human condition. Always. So simply. He knew and knows the heart and intent of people.
Did you ever read the gospels? Do you notice what He says and does with the Pharisees? Tripped them up . . . called them names. . . exposed them?
Why? Didn't He love them too? Didn't He have to forgive them? Save them? He told them they were of their father the devil. . . . Jesus hated unbelief, spiritual pride, indifference to human need, hypocrisy, and impurity.
I think we just summed up TWI leadership. . . doesn't bode well they were fleecing instead of feeding the flock.
Don't know about you, but I don't want to be standing next to them on judgment day. I sure am not going to tell their victims they are bitter hateful people.
I think you might have your religious people a bit mixed up. I really do. . . .
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pond
Every person makes judgements every single day . I decide to accept jesus as Lord or not.
The preacher can speak of all the hell fire they want and if a person does not chose to think it is true it isnt for them.
An Ambassador is not a police force. Represent The love of God yet save Justice for the LORD only. big difference.
God wishes ALL to be saved to the uter most .. he loves HIS creation yet it is a personal choice to chose His will or to worship HIM , again no forcing or threating allowed in his will .
people make very wrong choices and that is the very reason Christ is needed today and forever.... people deny God people sin they play with the devil .
In my thoughts we have no choice but to chose life or death we can not fight Satan alone and must have his will if we deny the most LOVING God. that is why Jesus told them what they chose to do was from their father the devil.
I have made plenty of choices that belonged to satan in life the bible says we ALL have and the very mercy of God brought me redemption through Jesus christ.
My own spirit was a gift from God not anything i was good enough or better than that guy to earn.
it was the love and mercy and grace of God I am able to understand the things of God.
To spew hate and vengence back at the world isnt the solution , i was forgivien and Jesus says we are to for give others and love.
reconciliation as in joining in with behaviours you know to be wrong for YOUR walk with God is not a requirment of forgivness.
Do I think god forgives? yes . As far as repentance that is between a person and Jesus isnt it? I can not prove to no one I have a changed heart any more than i can prove God forgave me for anything.
Personaly I believe god and Jesus can get the job done, my instruction is to tell other of His wonderous LOVE and grace and mercy for all of mankind.
As far civil authorities of course we all want to live in order and decent society and we have political systems in place to maintain our society that has been a given for many years throuout mankind.... the church and state is quite seperate , I believe true Justice comes only from Jesus Christ.
When Jesus walked the earth as a man in the flesh many thought he should have taken on the political system of that day that didnt do gods will and they hoped he would begin a revolution and a war.
he didnt then and he wont now . this is not our day to win any position , we have already won a new kingdom a new life , to help people we offer the only solution we have and hate and critical analysis how who sins more often just isnt it.
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Tzaia
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/forgive.htm
It is very different. It has also somehow become part of the Christian values that expects people to forgive, forget and reconcile when the offender has only done the forgetting part and expects reconciliation because they are Christians. What a crock of crap.
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geisha779
I will make it simple Pond. . . sometimes "sin" is a FELONY!!
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geisha779
Injustice? Should DISTURB us. . . Blaming the victim? Calling people bitter and hateful when they point out evil behavior? These are things that run contrary to our hearts. . . or they should.
Reminds me of the right wing evangelicals. Just does. Convenient Christianity.
You get any pagan or unbeliever with a modicum of decency and ask them if this is "Right" and they will tell you NO!!
I have to wonder when it was the bible told us to check OUR brains and hearts at the door before we enter.
Jesus didn't run around forgiving the Pharisees--He called them what they were. . . told them they were going to HELL. . . . VP did the SAME things they did. . . an outward appearance of Godliness. . . . inside a whole other story.
He sexually abused women in the NAME OF GOD! He tore people and their lives apart. . . so wide reaching we don't even know the extent. LCM caused a SUICIDE!!!! They were unrepentant. . . . didn't say "gee sorry". . . they kept justifying it!
Hello?
How are the ones who point this out the hateful ones? Again, on what planet?
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potato
geisha, I agree with you.
I'd also like to point out to Pond that I choose not to forgive the evil upper echelon of twi, I'm not a bitter person although at times I get angry, and that I can make a difference in the world that Jesus can't, even though the world is, as you say, "broken".
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pond
I never said anyone who points out evil behaviour hateful or bitter I said to store unforgivness can cause a hard heart and bitterness within a person. Please do not twist what I write.
I do not think the bible tells us to check our brain or heart "at the door". by the way what door are you talking about here?
Jesus christ is the one who calls us to LOVE one another and forgive, as far who is hateful and wrong I believe I read that it is your position that you get to decide. He specificly says to love our enemys .
I decide only for my life what is wrong or right Im done with trying to control others, I can forgive and love because of JESUS and what He has given me not by any doing or not doing on my part or anyone eles.
God is all about loving us and Jesus laid down his life to become KING of KINGS. I do not want the throne I trust HIM to complete what mankind so desperately needs. I can not helpmyself or anyone by hate but the LOVE and peace He bought with his life is what I can only help to inspire within my own self and then maybe others will see the true witness of why Jesus is the reason we can have peace.
Vengence belongs to the Lord.
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geisha779
Are you talking about forgiving a brother when he repents or forgiving unrepentant false teachers? WHO are you speaking of forgiving?
The ones who are wolves in sheeps clothing like VP and company---the ones who SCATTER the flock?? The ones who USE God and the bible to make merchandise of us?
Just exactly who is it. . . . you are telling us we are to forgive?? Who are you judging as having stored unforgivness in their hearts. . . the generic we?? Or just me?
God demands REPENTANCE in His forgivness. You can't be forgiven without acknowledging your sin. . . If we CONFESS our sins. . . . he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.
What? I can forgive VP his unrepentant sins against a Holy God?? I have that power?? Do I have the power to absolve him of his evil? My saying I forgive him for abusing others in the name of God or leading people AWAY from Jesus will heal my heart??
He disgusts me. He always will. That doesn't make me BITTER--I love God's rightness and abhor evil.
Paul told Philemon to forgive Onesimus because he was now a true brother. . . Paul had begotten him while he was in prison. HE didn't appeal to Philemon to take back Onesimus just because he HAD to forgive him. . . but that he was now useful--transformed by God's grace.
Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul had the Corinthian church remove an ACTUAL brother. . . he was judged by Paul. He was not tolerated within the church.
Of course I get to decide what is evil ---- God expects me too. I am to discern evil.
It does say to love your enemies and bless those that persecute you. . . love them. . . not wink and nod at evil.
You call it hate. . . I call it being a watchmen.
And Pond, I have prayed to God that He not hold these sins against these men on my account. I know what it means when the bible says it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
But, I still must trust His judgment which is already spoken of concerning these leaders.
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Bramble
For me forgiveness has to be real--I can't fake it and have no religious reason to try. People I love, people in my life like family, are easy for me to forgive--noone I surround myself with acts with malice toward me. They re just human, notperfect.
In my TWI past I do believe there were those that acted with malice. Those I don't forgive, but then I have no relationship with them to see if they've changed and I have no interest in rebuilding a false friendship.
Others from my TWI past are alot like I was back in my TWI days, followers forced by emotion (fear) and beliefs to think and act in certain ways--I have no problem forgiving them. I see them as being in a trap.
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pond
We agree then that whom God choses to forgive is between God and the individual .
jesus is speaking to Peter about forgivness when Peter wanted to know who he (meaning Peter not God) should forgive.
how many times should he forgive and to whom (enemys even!) not only forgive but love.
one can be disgusted about anothers action and never ever want to interact with another again, that is up to your choices in life and who is another to say? we all will sit at the judgement one day and Jesus will let us know our own punishments and rewards then.
somtimes sadly even now many find they pay for a hard and bitter heart. often times to late to make the amends we wish we could have.
A watchman looks for evil and clearly Jesus speaks of what we are to do in our interactions with one another as he set the standard, the watchmen I would say looks not to punish and hate another but to love and forgive and serve one another as christ showed us to do.
but if you want to point a finger and scream tilll your blue i still think it does nothing to change evil to those bent on destruction , but Love and forgivness has always paved a way to repentance and true change .
Jesus came to save sinners not slap them silly or to form a group who gets to decide who is a worse sinner, God wills all be saved from the evil one.
The records i read of sinners in the bible knew they had some issues in life with one another or their behaviours and that is what and how the bible is recorded how God turned things around for them in spite of what they did . God loves us very much.
Do i think Justice is possible ? oh yes most positive about it actualy but not with hate only with love and forgivness.
how do you think it should be done?
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GrouchoMarxJr
In my mind I draw a line between those who were sincere and those who knew it was a scam...
For those who honestly thought they were doing God's will...I extend a blanket forgiveness. As far as I'm concerned, they get a free pass...
...The others...no dice. If you knowingly lied in God's name and abused people...screw you.
Life is precious...to knowingly lead someone down a path that will change their future for the worse is a sin that I have no tolerance for. Wierwille was a monster as far as I'm concerned...
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leafytwiglet
Forgiveness is such a complicated issue... There seems to be many colors to it.
only God can forgive some one their sins so what is Christ talking about when he says to turn the other check
to forgive 70 times 7.
We do not hold the power to forgive a persons sins. so I wonder if it means more for you to understand what the person did and why. I do not believe for a minute that forgiving some one for an atrocity that they perpetrated on me means that I am to lower my guard and allow them to take advantage or hurt me again. Forgiving them does not ever mean that I need to continue on in their company and if that person is purposefully going out to do harm to others I believe it is my spiritual obligation to warn other people.
The more I read this thread though the more I realize I really do not understand what exactly Christ meant by forgiving others ... and now I do not trust any one else's study of the scripture and half the time I worry I am not reading it correctly myself.
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excathedra
thank you all so much for this discussion
and leafy i've been reading your posts on a couple threads and wanted to say i think you're wonderful -- just decided to throw it on this one
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pond
if a person "sins" or hurts me I can forgive them as the Lord forgives me and as he commanded.
the relationship between God and His people is NOT a group thing we are like his children a family yes a group of sorts but He Knows each one so very well He sent a great teacher in Jesus to instruct us on how to live in His will. Then as our Father he raises us up to grow into the type of Son and daughters He knows is best for us God knows how we will be happy and blessed He is our father and He has a job to do with His children.
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geisha779
Pond,
God actually tells us about false teachers. He tells us they have a reservation with him. . . so to speak. Their judgment is not idle. I gave you the verses. . . I gave you ALL the names used to describe them. What else is it you think will happen?
We are not speaking of a brother here. TWI was not a Christian organization. Vp was not mislead. . . he was wicked. What he taught was FALSE. . . what he did to people was EVIL. HE was a false teacher. . . . teaching(You guessed it) false doctrine.
When Paul said: They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. But I am not surprised! Even Satan disquises himself as an angel of light. So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
. . . was he being disobedient to Jesus and His commandment to forgive? Was he?
When I left for Macedonia, I urged you to stay there in Ephesus and stop those whose teaching is contrary to the truth.
We are speaking about two different things here. . . at cross purposes. Should they repent. . . . meaning CHANGE then no problem. VP didn't change. . . he waxed worse and worse. . . .bolder and bolder.
Why is it you want people to forgive that? Did Paul? Did Jesus? Does God?
On the other hand, if you do not believe VP was a false teacher, but a brother, then let's look at how Jesus said to deal with an offending brother. For the sake of argument, let's just say RAPE is offensive. Matthew 18
4 steps. 1. Show him his fault privately.
2. Take one or two with you
3. Bring him before the whole church
If he does not respond to all those attempts at reconciliation,
4. Is to REMOVE him from the assembly and he is to be regarded as a tax collector or gentile.
BTW. . What Jesus told Peter was . . . "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."
Do you notice here that Jesus says. . . be on your guard? "Your brother" That if he repents after you rebuke him. . . forgive him. IF he returns 7 times a day saying "I repent".
Do you understand we are not to gloss over sin? We rebuke it in others? We know evil from good? Rebuking someone in sin is love. God does it. HE loves us. What is love?
Not that it doesn't matter. . . .that it does matter to us. That people are not seperated from God or causing issues with their sin.
It is expected that those in the world cause Christians to stumble. . . and they will be judged for it. But if a fellow believer leads one into sin--it is better a rock be tied around their neck.
So either way. . . . some vauge idea of blanket forgivness for evil. . . just doesn't fly.
Causing a brother or sister in Christ to stumble or sin, (Purposely leading someone astray)is more than simply an offensive act against that person, it is a serious offense against the Lord Himself.
Now, how much more is it. . . . when one justifys it in the name of God.
Pond, this is serious stuff with God.
Look a bit closer at what He tells us to be aware of. . . . to know. . . . to understand.
Jesus saves sinners when they repent and turn from sin. If a person does not repent they are spurning Christ offer.
The love we are talking about that paved the way is that God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son. That is what it is. In order to accept Him, we must repent.
Yes, God wants all saved. . . He tells us how. . . throught repentance and belief in Jesus.
That is the LOVE of God. It is enough. That is how God reveals His love. How is that slapping anyone silly? Telling them they need to repent?? Too much fire and brimstone for you. That we are sinners and must STOP.
There is no group formed to judge who is the worst sinner. . . but I can tell you what the bible says about false teachers and sinning brothers. . .
You seem to miss the whole point about a Holy God who can't stand sin and had to send His Son to die because of it. . . we too are to despise sin as well. Not only in our own lives, but all sin.
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cman
I believe forgiveness has a power of it's own.
Not governed by anything but itself.
When it's unleashed, none can harness it.
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