A note on forgiving

[brideofjc]

Now isn’t THAT cause to pause?!

I go after splinter leaders for not being pro-vpw enough,

and Don’tWorryBeHappy goes after them for not being anti-vpw enough?

Contradiction, anomaly, paradox, conundrum?

No.

I’m focusing on the Christ-within that was manifested by vpw&co while Don’tWorryBeHappy is focusing on the old-man-nature manifestations of vpw&co.

So I’m saying splinter leaders are sloppy in dealing with the good that came from TWI-1.

Don’tWorryBeHappy is saying splinter leaders are sloppy in dealing with the bad that came from TWI-1.

Geez, you're arm must get realy tired patting yourself on the back, huh?

No, not if that means suppressing the brilliant light that’s 2000 years unique emanating from the same group of people’s Christ natures.

DO YOU GET PAID FOR THIS?

I’m sure not ALL the facts are out. There are plenty "other sides" we'lll never hear.

Probably too embarrassed to admit that they got took!

I'm sure some of those facts are fish stories with 25 years of stretching.

I'm sure some of those "facts" are wrong interpretations.

Like you would know? Have you spoken to any of these people?

But some dark facts ARE out, I’ll grant you that.

I just don’t think they are worth the time and focus.

Especially, if you're getting paid for the plugs, huh?

The truth is out of the TREASURE that awaits all who seek it in the writings.

My gosh, this isn't a commercial. The books are out there already!

Funny, isn't it, how you think about commercials at a time like this?

[brideofjc]

Bride...I too had the opportunity to meet him once. He was cold, very very cold and aloof. I was terrified that he was discerning something unsavory about me :(

Naw, he was LOOKING at me....and my spirit experienced the heebie jeebies!

[brideofjc]

You still haven't made any citations of the documents you're supposedly getting this information from....why is that? They surely have an online version somewhere, where I can also read what you are reading....unless you're talking off the top of your head.[/color]

All the originals were copied in such a way it required Stevens and others to “criticize” the fragments and “correct” them. The ink of these Critical Greek Texts was still wet 1500 years after the originals were lost.

Citation? Any?

And then it would seem that you choose to use the KJV which was from the Stevens text...why is that? Why not choose another more modern version?[/color]

It would seem that whenever Mike doesn't want to FOCUS on something, his modus operandi is "JUST DON'T ANSWER THE POST!"

Just focus on the crystal ball......there's so much LIGHT in there. It's been there for 2000 years.....

But he can't seem to find any documentation for the comments off the top of his head...or was that vp's head?

[T-Bone]

...I'd like to offer a possible correction here. What I think you really mean to say, to use words most accurately, is that "Some facts are out on TWI's favorite idol." I can agree to that. BUT...

I'm sure not ALL the facts are out. There are plenty "other sides" we'lll never hear.

I'm sure some of those facts are fish stories with 25 years of stretching.

I'm sure some of those "facts" are wrong interpretations.

But some dark facts ARE out, I'll grant you that.

I just don't think they are worth the time and focus.

I refuse to try and sort out such a mess.

Also, to some degree, the truths areout about light from God's team that produced the written PFAL teachings, book and magazine form, that we were told to master and that we did NOT master, not even close.

The truth is out of the TREASURE that awaits all who seek it in the writings.

My gosh, this isn't a commercial. The books are out there already!

I'm for brilliant light focusing.

It's there for those who want to see it.

We once saw it.

We can see it again.

Yeah – I don't think all the facts are out yet either – but thankfully there's a website like Grease Spot where the TRUTH about vpw and TWI continues to gravitate toward.

And I really have to take issue with you on referring to fish stories with 25 years of stretching and wrong interpretations of those "facts" as you put it. So much of what exposes vp for the impostor that he was – is EASILY accessible to anyone with nothing more than a copy of The Way: Living in Love and an analytical mind. Heck, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see through the BS. I had just left TWI and even with a lingering mindset that hampered critical thinking - while reading and checking his claims in the book - I began to notice vp had some real issues with honesty. Case in point is the letter I received from Moody Correspondence in answer to my inquiries -that stated he never completed any courses from them, my post # 500 on The Way: Living in Wonderland thread:

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=213920

While we're on the subject - The Way: Living in Wonderland thread is a great exercise in critical thinking and I highly recommend it to anyone who would like a tutorial on analytical thinking. I tend to think if anyone is guilty of stretching fish stories or having a wrong interpretation of the facts – it would be vp. Claiming God told him He'd teach him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century and making it snow is quite a fish story! But maybe vp pawning off plagiarism as the Word that God taught him is more than just a stretching of the fish story – it's more like a wrong interpretation of the facts. Kind of like him claiming he took everything he could from Moody Correspondence.

"Somebody has got to be a liar."

And you know – it's not like I've brought up anything that happened on a remote island, a long time ago…in a galaxy far, far away...and so maybe you think I don't have all the facts straight…My stuff is written down…They encouraged us to keep a journal while going through the Corps program. Man oh man did I write stuff down! I'm working on "My Story" – don't know if I'll ever post it here – but it's been very therapeutic for me to articulate my experience. I'm up to chapter 5 of "My Story" – my Corps experience…Yecch! I'm reviewing my Corps journals.

I can tell you the exact "day and time and hour " when vp showed our Corps the porn video at the pajama party. Wanna hear something really scary? At what point in our Corps training do you think he showed it to us? It's on the third page of my first Corps journal – Tonto and I had only been in residence eleven days!

And again, bringing it back to the things I mentioned in post # 906 – I feel it is my Christian responsibility to warn others of the deceitful light that was shed by vp. To me, a telltale sign that something is amiss with the way that some so strongly defend him – is noting how central vp is to their belief system. "What did Doctor Wierwille teach us about this or that verse?...Remember who taught you the Word? God taught him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century – and he put it all in PFAL"…Hmmm…it hits me as a belief system that's centered around vp. I'm reminded of Paul's words in Corinthians – how the counterfeit uses subtlety to corrupt the mind – where the belief system is no longer focused on Christ, and the counterfeit light does not enlighten but merely bedazzles them:

II Corinthians 11:3,4, 13-15 KJV

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Edited March 10, 2008 by T-Bone

[waysider]

Ya know

Here's the thing that I don't "get".

God told Dr. Wierwille to assemble the works of other people in a way that they hadn't been assembled for two millennium.

Of course, he very frequently neglected to cite his sources even though he admitted the work was not his own.

Now, some people might argue that to be plagiarism, which is a form of stealing.

But stealing is part of the Ten Commandments and we are not obligated to adhere to them because we live in the "age of grace"

(I learned that in PFAL.).

So we'll put that on the back burner for now.

Now, I don't mean to discredit the works of Bullinger or Stiles or Kenyon or E.S. Jones or B.G. Leonard or any of these people.

After all, they all had some really cool stuff they brought to the party. Heck, I'll bet some of it even came straight from God Almighty!

Well, OK, I have rambled enough.

Here's the source of my puzzlement.

How come God gave Dr. Wierwille revelation to use the inaccurate stuff these guys did when he could have just as easily given revelation to use the "right on" stuff?

What do you think, Mike?

Nobody knows the fine points of PFAL better than you.

So, Mike, how come God told Dr. Wierwille to use the stuff that is inaccurate in favor of the stuff that is "right on"?

I'm looking forward to your straightforward explanation of this seemingly simple question.

If anybody knows the score on this, it would have to be you.

Edited March 10, 2008 by waysider

[AJern]

My understanding of forgiveness is this.. Jesus asked God to forgive his persecutors because they were in essence helping to fulfill the prophesy.. someone had to do it, someone had to betray Christ, someone had to carry out the plan.. " What you meant for evil, God meant for good." In looking at it in that perspective, those who crucified him were brought into existence for that sole purpose.. the miserable comforters of Job were placed there to relay the message.. Even through the tumultuous evil perpetrated by VPW, LCM, H Allen and others.. there is a reason we all had to experience the devastating circumstances .. That's why we aren't called to judge others but love our neighbors.. and forgive.. even those who we don't find a reason to forgive.. that doesn't mean we have to accept the abuse given.. it simply means to let it go.. as someone put it earlier in the thread.. Holding a grudge just keeps that person(s) in power over that aspect in your life.. forgiving is growth and healing.. (easier said than done of course, cause I still have tons of resentment I'm working through on multiple levels) but I understand the principle..

[waysider]

Hi, AJ

I think I see what you mean.

For sure, it's not healthy to carry around resentment and ill-will.

It has a detrimental effect both mentally and physically, not to mention, emotionally.

The thing is, some people like to equate forgiveness with ignoring obvious injustices.

(kinda like looking the other way.)

It's like the guy who beats his wife one night and the next morning expects her to forget it ever happened and forgive him.

He says he's gonna change.

Things will be different.

He's so sorry he acted that way.

She considers what he says and takes him back.

Maybe she even says she forgives him.

Then one day, out of the blue, WHAM!

He's right back into his abusive behavior.

Sometimes what people confuse as a request for forgiveness, is really a request to excuse(even dismiss) behavior that is inexcusable.

[brideofjc]

Here's the thing that I don't "get".

God told Dr. Wierwille to assemble the works of other people in a way that they hadn't been assembled for two millennium.

Of course, he very frequently neglected to cite his sources even though he admitted the work was not his own.

Ya know, Waysider, I guess Mike has been a good student after all?

Now, some people might argue that to be plagiarism, which is a form of stealing.

But stealing is part of the Ten Commandments and we are not obligated to adhere to them because we live in the "age of grace"

(I learned that in PFAL.).

So we'll put that on the back burner for now.

Where does it say that we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments?

[waysider]

.

Where does it say that we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments?

Oh,My!!!

You really should have paid better attention in the PLAF class!

I think that might have been session #5, the one that instructs us to "Get The Administrations Properly Divided".

Hmmm! Might even be somewhere in the orange book.

Or was it the green book?

Well, it was in ONE of the collaterals, and they're all "God Breathed", dontcha know?

Edited March 11, 2008 by waysider

[excathedra]

i really appreciate your post, wing

love,ex

[AJern]

forgiveness has nothing to do with trust tho waysider.. it's more internally personal really... it has nothing to do with that person.. it's what's wrestling within yourself.. and when you forgive it doesn't have to be audible or outwardly to the other party.. it's between you and God.. to stamp out bitterness and anger or whatever feelings the offense caused that's hindering life in that area.. whether the other party ever admits or is acknowledgeable of what they've done.. you find freedom in moving past it.. and moving on

[waysider]

forgiveness has nothing to do with trust tho waysider.. it's more internally personal really... it has nothing to do with that person.. it's what's wrestling within yourself.. and when you forgive it doesn't have to be audible or outwardly to the other party.. it's between you and God.. to stamp out bitterness and anger or whatever feelings the offense caused that's hindering life in that area.. whether the other party ever admits or is acknowledgeable of what they've done.. you find freedom in moving past it.. and moving on

I'm not sure I completely understand what you are saying.

But------That does not mean I am disagreeing with you, either.

It just means I have to give it some deeper thought.

Hmmm.

Now to try to download that album.

I'll probably have to recruit some help from the "younger" generation around this house.

I'm glad you are here, AJ.

Your perspective is valuable.

[cheranne]

forgiveness has nothing to do with trust tho waysider.. it's more internally personal really... it has nothing to do with that person.. it's what's wrestling within yourself.. and when you forgive it doesn't have to be audible or outwardly to the other party.. it's between you and God.. to stamp out bitterness and anger or whatever feelings the offense caused that's hindering life in that area.. whether the other party ever admits or is acknowledgeable of what they've done.. you find freedom in moving past it.. and moving on

i agree with that except incases of child abuse and neglect or types of other abuses.

Be true to yourself.

[AJern]

It's the whole "you believe it? then practice what you preach" Without a doubt it's one thing to fully comprehend something.. It's quite another to submit to your own understanding and obey such a selfless command, it ain't overnight.. nor does it get easier to do with time.. it's almost a guerrilla decision that has to be made.. I'm still working on it myself.. and some days are more successful than others.. seems life is a million little processes..

even in cases as child abuse.. even though I struggle profusely with agoraphobia and even speaking on the phone with people.. it's something I can attribute to my life as a waykid with parents so gungho in doing whatever it takes to fulfill ministry agenda .. and then later being the victim of my spouse's extramarital affairs.. I've got a little experience in the unforgivingness /forgiveness department..

I put myself purposely in environments where I'm not comfortable in I.E. on stage, working for fed ex, way of the master street preaching in process to help forgive the past..

How I look at it, constantly forgiving and pushing on every day is a slap in the face of the devil.. or even your physical adversaries.. grudges stunt growth..

Edited March 11, 2008 by AJern

[Eyesopen]

Do you think that these kinds of communication-connects help develop better abilities in forgiveness?

I do.

I have to say that amongst all of this discussion I found many things that I agree with, but in keeping with the original question of the thread I find this quote to be very easy to agree with. I would also like to note that although I do not agree with much of Mike's doctine I have found it very refreshing and educational to actually read what he has to say in his present conversational tone. Thank you T-Bone for helping to bring this about and thank you Mike for dialoging. The conversation between the two of you has brought several interesting things to light.

In light of really cool quotes, this one bears repeating:

...grudges stunt growth...

And last but not least, Wing that was a very moving post. Thank you all for your imput, I am enjoying the discussion. Please continue as if the shark was not here... :blink:

[Neo]

Before I get started I should point out that this is meant to be loving encouragement in Gods word. If you get feeling defensive at any point, then I apologize for not writing clearly enough. My intent is not to attack anyone, so if you feel attacked then I encourage you to take a step back and try to determine why.

I grew up in The Way. There's no way I can imagine knowing as much of Gods word as I do without that upbringing. That's not to say I know everything, just that I am very appreciative of what I do know.

I'm no longer a member of the way, but I love them dearly. They are my brothers and sisters. Anything, ANYTHING they did wrong to me, I forgive them for. Holding a grudge does nothing to them and nothing positive to you.

These folks are your brothers and sisters too.

So that's what was on my heart, God bless you guys, you seem like a wonderful bunch of believers!

-nathan

((((((((((Nathan))))))))))

Are you still out there?

It has been awhile since we heard from you.

Just wondering.

Neo

[rascal]

((Neo)) you seem like good folks :)

Edited March 11, 2008 by rascal

[waysider]

Hi, rascal

The first part of Neo's post is actually a quote from post # 1.

(It's from the post, by Nathan, that began this whole thread.)

Then, Neo's comments begin with the hugs around Nathan.

Just thought I would clarify that.

:)

[rascal]

Thanks Waysider, boy do *I* feel like a dufus :)

[waysider]

Thanks Waysider, boy do *I* feel like a dufus :)

Well, you really shouldn't.

There was nothing "wrong" with what you said.

(IMO)

[lindyhopper]

forgiveness = moving on/ letting go

I think I have said that in so many words here before. I more or less agree with that in that it is a fairly liberal definition or explanation of one way of getting over a painful experience.

My question is, is forgiveness (as it is typically referred to) really the tool used to get to the point that you can move on? I think perhaps in some situations, but not in all. Moving on is the goal, not forgiveness. Forgiveness certainly isn't the magic pill, the cure all, of bitterness, anger, and whatever else may hold you back. People willingly admit to "working" on forgiving for years concerning the same experience/people. Well, there are other people that spend years working on moving on by going to a therapist, or working it out in their art, or say posting on internet forums or any number or combination of things.

Life is complicated and I don't think forgiving someone is necessary in every situation. Moving on is. Absolutely. A simple forgiving one of a wrong, though, does not miraculously heal you of all the damage and pain that something may have caused you. However you go about "moving on" you "work through it." It is work. It is a process. It takes time and everyone takes a different amount of time and may need a different process. Plus, even if you move on (as has been said here repeatedly) that doesn't mean you forget and it doesn't mean you stop talking about it. You don't forgive and suddenly become an expert on the type of pain and experiences others are dealing with. Just because you or I have moved on doesn't either. We all continue to learn and that learning process only happens with communication, discussing the good, that bad, and the ugly.

I think it is important for us to keep this in mind, when speaking with people that are dealing with issues like we sometimes have here at the Gspot. Sometimes it is very healing to discuss experiences with people that understand and can sympathize through a common connection or similar experiences. I can't think of a verse that says that, but it is the truth.

There are no formulas that fit everyone. Yet I see many times a standard concept of forgiveness being pedaled around like it is the elixir to cure the woes you may not even know you have! Many times I see it as yet another way to avoid dealing with the real issues, a tool to get past the bad moments, instead of getting to the root of what triggered these thoughts and emotions to surface. That is what gets me, and I imagine others here. The concept is not an issue. If it worked for you great, but it isn't a cure-all.

That's my take on it anyway.

[excathedra]

thanks lindy

[Neo]

((Neo)) you seem like good folks :)

I am. Thanks and you ARE good folks!

Bless,

Neo

[Neo]

Well, you really shouldn't.

There was nothing "wrong" with what you said.

(IMO)

Sorry I tried to correct that to show it was a quote from post #1, and thanks for pointing that out.

Neo

[bowtwi]

My latest lesson in forgiveness:

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...mp;#entry402455