...It seems you place more faith in vp than in God, that you have more trust in vp's thought process than your own…It's kind of weird, remembering how we all thought alike while in TWI. We were all clones of vp's mindset. What I've seen at Grease Spot is that as folks think outside the PFAL theological box, they tend to experience some shift in doctrinal beliefs. You can always spot them by their green bumper sticker Shift Happens.
You may have a misimpression of my process. In ancient posts here I reported how I was often suspicious of the doctrine. It seemed too good to be true at times, things like “heaven bound” and all. In some ways I didn’t like Dr's personality either. I got along with his brother Harry, but I had problems thinking like Dr, and I didn’t like his sense of humor at all. I saw some culty hero worship attitudes developing in some grads in the 70’s and this distanced me all the more from him, not wanting to be so emotionally involved.
The ideas taught in PFAL and in the scriptures intrigued me to no end, but I was FAR from jumping in with both feet and thinking like vpw. I wanted to at times, but couldn’t. I wanted to have instant believing and get instant results like I saw many others doing, but for me it was a very slow and methodical process.
The twenty years I took to resolve the trinity issue involved ALL the scriptures that had anything to do with Jesus being God or not. My decision was not based on one handling of one chapter in the scriptures like John 1.
For several topics (like “heaven bound,” SIT, The Canon, Are the Dead Alive Now, administrations, and especially for the trinity) I developed a strategy in my daily KJV reading. For each topic I devised a symbol to place in the margin whenever I ran across a verse having ANYTHING to do with that topic. For the trinity it was a capital “T” with a circle around it.
***
After several years I had a very large collection of “T” marks that were easily retrievable. I noticed in my trinity debates with other Christian groups that they had NEVER done such a thing: kept track of verses for BOTH sides of the debate. They only had collections of pro-trinity verses. Likewise, all the grads I knew only collected anti-trinity verses IF they collected any at all. This bothered me, and seemed sometimes like the “vp clones” you mentioned above. There were a few like me who were stand-offish, but there were quite a few clones developing as time went by, especially in the Corps. You may have drifted towards these kinds of people, and hence your mis-characterizing “how we all thought alike while in TWI.”
Drifting towards the more maverick corners of the ministry, I had to take some heat at times, but I knew it was important to be as thorough as my skills allowed. In some ways I was ahead of the “shifting” you just talked about. I was way behind in getting my mind and actions and enthusiasm in gear with the program, but I was way ahead in dealing with many of the issues that now grab people here. I went through the “plagiarism crisis” in 1974 or 75.
I dealt with some of the sex TVTs in 1978, ten years before the Scheonheit Paper on adultery. In his paper he deals with 14 of those TVTs in the appendices. I was a twig leader then and several of us worked on exposing about 11 of those same TVTs. (my memory is weak here; 14 and 11 sounds right though)
***
After many years of collecting “T” symbols in my Cambridge Wide-Margin the next step was to collect them together in a notebook, dividing the “pro” from the “con” verses. After a few more years of working this entire collection of HUNDREDS of verses and passages my decision started to solidify.
I urge you to be more thorough than going with the feelings of just one chapter in John. Is your process of “Shift Happens” still an on-going one? I had oodles of feelings come and go dealing with both “pro” and “con” trinity verses. When those feelings subsided there was a massive amount of evidence tilting towards the relatively simple old idea that made Israel unique: One God.
This trinity issue is just one example of how I resisted the cloning process.
My process continued into 1998, when someone here in San Diego showed me Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching. That year I came to see that EVEN WITH MY GREATEST ATTEMPTS TO BE THOROUGH, even with all my thousands of margin symbols and my organizing notebooks for many (not just trinity) of the top doctrinal points, it was the surprising case that STILL there were many things in PFAL that slipped by me unawares, or that were forgotten. That’s when I started getting as thorough with written PFAL (book and magazine form) as I had been with my KJV materials.
***
Set the clock ahead a few years to the present. It may look to you that NOW that cloning process has finally hit me and that now I am a vpw clone. No, that’s not at all the case.
Because I have more and more these past ten years worked myself towards the WRITTEN forms of PFAL and worked more and more AWAY from the spoken classes and SNS tapes and TVTs, my mindset is much more a “Composite Clone” of not just vpw, but of all his previous teachers, AND of the grads who helped edit and even “ghost write” for those books and magazine articles. Some of those editors post here or have posted in the past.
I believe those TWI editors got revelation as they did their jobs, that Dr’s previous teachers got revelation, and that Dr got revelation in putting it all together. I see the active hand of God in there, which means the active hand of the devil was not far away. This last clause is an idea few seem to have ever considered.
Your view of my process needs this update to be accurate.
I believe those TWI editors got revelation as they did their jobs, that Dr’s previous teachers got revelation,
and that Dr got revelation in putting it all together.
I see the active hand of God in there, which means the active hand of the devil was not far away.
This last clause is an idea few seem to have ever considered.
Quoting myself, I want to give this idea a little more time.
One of the mechanisms I have employed to HELP ME FORGIVE is recognizing the intensity of the battle we were in.
BECAUSE God was doing such a mighty work in the PFAL revelations, we should EXPECT the adversary would want to thwart it at all costs. Every opportunity to get someone off or to cause confusion had to be exploited. It was wartime.
Collateral damage [OUCH! :( I never hit this language oddity before] is a common thing in war.
How do soldiers forgive each other when it happens?
Probably the same thing happens even in times of peace.
Con, lie to, steal from underlings, "fraternize" with enough of their wives, a general just MIGHT find himself face down in the same predicament.. and all the staffers likely would have an alibi at the time of his not-so glorious "departure"..
The only "unforgivable" thing about this thread is that these whacky strains of "thought" are being discussed again and again and over and over. You see where it leads to - this makes passing a stone look quick, which would be worth it because at least there'd be some relief at the end. Sometimes I think some of youse guys just like beating up on Mike, and Mike likes it so he keeps coming back because he knows at least on GS he'll get some kind of attention and coverage. :blink: It's a tough way to get your feelgoods, that's for sure.
...I urge you to be more thorough than going with the feelings of just one chapter in John. Is your process of "Shift Happens" still an on-going one? I had oodles of feelings come and go dealing with both "pro" and "con" trinity verses. When those feelings subsided there was a massive amount of evidence tilting towards the relatively simple old idea that made Israel unique: One God.
This trinity issue is just one example of how I resisted the cloning process.
...I believe those TWI editors got revelation as they did their jobs, that Dr's previous teachers got revelation, and that Dr got revelation in putting it all together. I see the active hand of God in there, which means the active hand of the devil was not far away. This last clause is an idea few seem to have ever considered.
Your view of my process needs this update to be accurate.
I assure you ever since I left TWI, the deity of Jesus Christ has been one of my favorite studies – one of which I'm very passionate about. One that I've shared here often as can be seen in the following posts:
Jesus Christ, 275 Reasons Why I think He's a Man thread
I'm sorry but I still find your thought process faulty. There's a lot of assumptions – like believing vp got revelation to plagiarize and TWI editors got revelation working on his stuff. I tend to think with as much credence as you give vp - that a cloning process has happened to you a long time ago.
But thank you for elaborating on stuff – it's not really an update for me – I'm very familiar with your work.
The greatest learning in forgiving comes when it's difficult.
I would rephrase that.. "the greatest learning in forgiving is learning to have the CHARACTER needed not to give someone an excuse not to forgive.."
Other words.. don't be a stumbling block. Wanna be a supposed "manogawd"? Keep your hands and privates where they belong.. not matter WHAT. NEVER shake down your congregation for even a tithe..
Don't SELL your rituals.. or religion.. they will turn into snake oil if you do..
Lesson learned?? I`d say it had something to do with David repenting once he had realized via an intervention from God....the magnitude of his sin....apparently, God needed David to do something more than live with his sorry self after having slept with bathsheba, and killing uriah....
David needed to be sorry AND repent AND suffer the consequences of his actions...it was important enough for God himself to intervene...
How is that even REMOTELY similar to a man of the flesh who embraced evil, who taught others to do also...who went to his grave never having expressed sorrow OR repentance to those whom he had wronged?
Well... I guess now we know why Orange is the color VP chose for his first book. He took the fast food approach to the Word, to research, to academics, most likely he took the fast food approach to most anything he did. <_<
I don't think I even want to truly comment on your last remark....I could...but it wouldn't be very nice...so I'll refrain
Has it ever occurred to you how frequently VP Wierwille is the focal point of your posts and how infrequently Jesus shows up?
There's probably even a mathematical exactness to the ratio if someone were so inclined(or bored) to research it.
Oh yes, I have noticed that, my infrequent mention of Jesus Christ. It’s quite deliberate. It might even be regarded as bait by some.
Others had noticed it long ago here, and we had many rounds on it. Press me on this and I might drag them out.
As I mentioned in a few posts above, it’s not VPW, the man, that I often do refer to, but the written forms of PFAL, which come from not only Dr but also his editors and also his teachers, and ultimately from God via Jesus Christ.
Long ago I found out that typing out the ASCII Characters “Jesus Christ” a lot, along with any kind
of positive blather (no need for accuracy here) certainly is a great way to impress religious people.
Since I’m not trying to do that at all here, REFRAINING from that practice is a great way to flush out
those who are so inclined.
I prefer to mention JC's ASCII label when it seems pertinent. More so, I act from that Christ in me and people get to see how the ministry of Jesus Christ is supposed to work nowadays. Religious people are usually stuck in the gospel administration and can’t pick up on this very well. I act as I see him act now, not then. I try be LIKE him, as a sermon in person, rather than a mere name dropper.
Remember, the name of Jesus Christ, in the Biblical/Oriental context, is a lot bigger than an ASCII string, like it is in Western culture and churchianity. The real name of Jesus Christ includes his credit rating, reputation, family, accomplishments, attitudes, and abilities. I mention those things all the time.
But the BIG mentioning (cue the orchestra) of the name of Jesus Christ (doojable, brace for comm’l) that I do a lot is when I mention (drum roll) HIS MIND, which was given to us in printed form (choir sings “PFAL”) to assimilate into our own being as an alternative to our rotten natural man minds with rotten man-made religiosity. Anyone want to try some “mind of Christ” for a change?
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Mike
You may have a misimpression of my process. In ancient posts here I reported how I was often suspicious of the doctrine. It seemed too good to be true at times, things like “heaven bound” and all. In some ways I didn’t like Dr's personality either. I got along with his brother Harry, but I had problems thinking like Dr, and I didn’t like his sense of humor at all. I saw some culty hero worship attitudes developing in some grads in the 70’s and this distanced me all the more from him, not wanting to be so emotionally involved.
The ideas taught in PFAL and in the scriptures intrigued me to no end, but I was FAR from jumping in with both feet and thinking like vpw. I wanted to at times, but couldn’t. I wanted to have instant believing and get instant results like I saw many others doing, but for me it was a very slow and methodical process.
The twenty years I took to resolve the trinity issue involved ALL the scriptures that had anything to do with Jesus being God or not. My decision was not based on one handling of one chapter in the scriptures like John 1.
For several topics (like “heaven bound,” SIT, The Canon, Are the Dead Alive Now, administrations, and especially for the trinity) I developed a strategy in my daily KJV reading. For each topic I devised a symbol to place in the margin whenever I ran across a verse having ANYTHING to do with that topic. For the trinity it was a capital “T” with a circle around it.
***
After several years I had a very large collection of “T” marks that were easily retrievable. I noticed in my trinity debates with other Christian groups that they had NEVER done such a thing: kept track of verses for BOTH sides of the debate. They only had collections of pro-trinity verses. Likewise, all the grads I knew only collected anti-trinity verses IF they collected any at all. This bothered me, and seemed sometimes like the “vp clones” you mentioned above. There were a few like me who were stand-offish, but there were quite a few clones developing as time went by, especially in the Corps. You may have drifted towards these kinds of people, and hence your mis-characterizing “how we all thought alike while in TWI.”
Drifting towards the more maverick corners of the ministry, I had to take some heat at times, but I knew it was important to be as thorough as my skills allowed. In some ways I was ahead of the “shifting” you just talked about. I was way behind in getting my mind and actions and enthusiasm in gear with the program, but I was way ahead in dealing with many of the issues that now grab people here. I went through the “plagiarism crisis” in 1974 or 75.
I dealt with some of the sex TVTs in 1978, ten years before the Scheonheit Paper on adultery. In his paper he deals with 14 of those TVTs in the appendices. I was a twig leader then and several of us worked on exposing about 11 of those same TVTs. (my memory is weak here; 14 and 11 sounds right though)
***
After many years of collecting “T” symbols in my Cambridge Wide-Margin the next step was to collect them together in a notebook, dividing the “pro” from the “con” verses. After a few more years of working this entire collection of HUNDREDS of verses and passages my decision started to solidify.
I urge you to be more thorough than going with the feelings of just one chapter in John. Is your process of “Shift Happens” still an on-going one? I had oodles of feelings come and go dealing with both “pro” and “con” trinity verses. When those feelings subsided there was a massive amount of evidence tilting towards the relatively simple old idea that made Israel unique: One God.
This trinity issue is just one example of how I resisted the cloning process.
My process continued into 1998, when someone here in San Diego showed me Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching. That year I came to see that EVEN WITH MY GREATEST ATTEMPTS TO BE THOROUGH, even with all my thousands of margin symbols and my organizing notebooks for many (not just trinity) of the top doctrinal points, it was the surprising case that STILL there were many things in PFAL that slipped by me unawares, or that were forgotten. That’s when I started getting as thorough with written PFAL (book and magazine form) as I had been with my KJV materials.
***
Set the clock ahead a few years to the present. It may look to you that NOW that cloning process has finally hit me and that now I am a vpw clone. No, that’s not at all the case.
Because I have more and more these past ten years worked myself towards the WRITTEN forms of PFAL and worked more and more AWAY from the spoken classes and SNS tapes and TVTs, my mindset is much more a “Composite Clone” of not just vpw, but of all his previous teachers, AND of the grads who helped edit and even “ghost write” for those books and magazine articles. Some of those editors post here or have posted in the past.
I believe those TWI editors got revelation as they did their jobs, that Dr’s previous teachers got revelation, and that Dr got revelation in putting it all together. I see the active hand of God in there, which means the active hand of the devil was not far away. This last clause is an idea few seem to have ever considered.
Your view of my process needs this update to be accurate.
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WordWolf
I've noticed that this supposedly thorough process is the one that has resulted in you
putting forth that vpw had
"an OVERabundance of brains and brawn", that he was "OVERgifted", and that
"where he walked, the earth shook."
It's also the same process that has led you to conclude that the pfal books are more
"God's Word" than any modern Bible is.
It's also the same process that led you to claim-and NOT joking- that
"When JC returns, he will be holding a copy of the Orange Book and teaching you from it."
(The first time I read that, my immediate response was "Ok, he has a sense of humor, at least."
But you later clarified you were "very serious" about that, and had
"seen him many times this way myself."
=========
If a computer program is designed to perform numerical calculations-
it's a calculator-
and this program ends up resulting in incorrect calculations-
the numbers are wrong-
then, no matter how excellent the program sounds, it is a FLAWED PROGRAM and an ERROR.
I'm NOT going to use it to perform what it's designed to do-
it leads to false conclusions and is thus PROVEN FALSE.
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Mike
The earth is STILL shaking from his walking.
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doojable
sigh... this again.
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Mike
Don't blame me. I haven't brought that up for years!
*******
Hey wait a minute.
To which "this" do you refer? ;)
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Mike
Quoting myself, I want to give this idea a little more time.
One of the mechanisms I have employed to HELP ME FORGIVE is recognizing the intensity of the battle we were in.
BECAUSE God was doing such a mighty work in the PFAL revelations, we should EXPECT the adversary would want to thwart it at all costs. Every opportunity to get someone off or to cause confusion had to be exploited. It was wartime.
Collateral damage [OUCH! :( I never hit this language oddity before] is a common thing in war.
How do soldiers forgive each other when it happens?
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Ham
well, I hear that if mr "big shot" costs them enough lives and resources, he ends face down in a latrine somewhere..
it's called an old fashioned "fragging".
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Mike
I'm glad some of Uriah's soldiers and family saw that would be self defeating.
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Ham
Probably the same thing happens even in times of peace.
Con, lie to, steal from underlings, "fraternize" with enough of their wives, a general just MIGHT find himself face down in the same predicament.. and all the staffers likely would have an alibi at the time of his not-so glorious "departure"..
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Mike
The greatest learning in forgiving comes when it's difficult.
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socks
The only "unforgivable" thing about this thread is that these whacky strains of "thought" are being discussed again and again and over and over. You see where it leads to - this makes passing a stone look quick, which would be worth it because at least there'd be some relief at the end. Sometimes I think some of youse guys just like beating up on Mike, and Mike likes it so he keeps coming back because he knows at least on GS he'll get some kind of attention and coverage. :blink: It's a tough way to get your feelgoods, that's for sure.
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Ham
Actually, they didn't. Look at Uriah's father in law. He wanted david under the path of a steam roller..
along with not more than a few other relatives..
David made it by the skin of his teeth.. and maybe a TAD of grace.
these other overbearing, overdemanding religious con men.. they probably survive only with dumb luck..
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T-Bone
I assure you ever since I left TWI, the deity of Jesus Christ has been one of my favorite studies – one of which I'm very passionate about. One that I've shared here often as can be seen in the following posts:
Jesus Christ, 275 Reasons Why I think He's a Man thread
Post # 9
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=13725&view=findpost&p=320521
Post # 11
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=13725&view=findpost&p=321148
Post # 14
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=321317
As far as the uniqueness of Israel's one God, I refer you to some of these posts:
Honest Discussion of the Trinity thread
Post # 173
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=12971&view=findpost&p=302302
Post # 176
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=12971&view=findpost&p=302401
Post # 187
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?s=&showtopic=12971&view=findpost&p=302932
I'm sorry but I still find your thought process faulty. There's a lot of assumptions – like believing vp got revelation to plagiarize and TWI editors got revelation working on his stuff. I tend to think with as much credence as you give vp - that a cloning process has happened to you a long time ago.
But thank you for elaborating on stuff – it's not really an update for me – I'm very familiar with your work.
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Ham
I would rephrase that.. "the greatest learning in forgiving is learning to have the CHARACTER needed not to give someone an excuse not to forgive.."
Other words.. don't be a stumbling block. Wanna be a supposed "manogawd"? Keep your hands and privates where they belong.. not matter WHAT. NEVER shake down your congregation for even a tithe..
Don't SELL your rituals.. or religion.. they will turn into snake oil if you do..
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Mike
I wish we ALL were the man we know to be.
*******
And it was the case that SOME of Uriah's people (and even progeny) DID somehow forgive David and it's documented in the texts.
John Scheonheit did a Way Magazine article on it in the early 80's.
*******
The man we know to be....
How did those people forgive....
There's a connection here. It was brought up here before, so I'm going to search my archives for it.
*******
socks, Don't blow it.
We're on a roll.
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rascal
*men we knew to be*? Whats that in your opinion....little zombie robots parroting the teachings of an evil man of the flesh?
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Ham
"being the man I knew (in my case know) to be"
some of us who have abandoned playing some religous shell game, picked up some real life skills and spirituality are doing just that..
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Mike
No, to both.
The man we know to be is Jesus Christ.
The goal is to be LIKE him.
Sorry, men was a typo of mine that was fixed after you quoted me.
*******
No, to both.
The man we know to be is Jesus Christ.
The goal is to be LIKE him.
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rascal
Lesson learned?? I`d say it had something to do with David repenting once he had realized via an intervention from God....the magnitude of his sin....apparently, God needed David to do something more than live with his sorry self after having slept with bathsheba, and killing uriah....
David needed to be sorry AND repent AND suffer the consequences of his actions...it was important enough for God himself to intervene...
How is that even REMOTELY similar to a man of the flesh who embraced evil, who taught others to do also...who went to his grave never having expressed sorrow OR repentance to those whom he had wronged?
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doojable
The Hook - a PFAL/vp commercial
The Bait - anything that riles anyone that hates PFAL
*Take the bait and you're always gonna find yourself listening to a PFAL/vp commercial.
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waysider
Hey, Mike!
Has it ever occurred to you how frequently VP Wierwille is the focal point of your posts and how infrequently Jesus shows up?
There's probably even a mathematical exactness to the ratio if someone were so inclined(or bored) to research it.
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brideofjc
I don't think I even want to truly comment on your last remark....I could...but it wouldn't be very nice...so I'll refrain
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Mike
Oh yes, I have noticed that, my infrequent mention of Jesus Christ. It’s quite deliberate. It might even be regarded as bait by some.
Others had noticed it long ago here, and we had many rounds on it. Press me on this and I might drag them out.
As I mentioned in a few posts above, it’s not VPW, the man, that I often do refer to, but the written forms of PFAL, which come from not only Dr but also his editors and also his teachers, and ultimately from God via Jesus Christ.
Long ago I found out that typing out the ASCII Characters “Jesus Christ” a lot, along with any kind
of positive blather (no need for accuracy here) certainly is a great way to impress religious people.
Since I’m not trying to do that at all here, REFRAINING from that practice is a great way to flush out
those who are so inclined.
I prefer to mention JC's ASCII label when it seems pertinent. More so, I act from that Christ in me and people get to see how the ministry of Jesus Christ is supposed to work nowadays. Religious people are usually stuck in the gospel administration and can’t pick up on this very well. I act as I see him act now, not then. I try be LIKE him, as a sermon in person, rather than a mere name dropper.
Remember, the name of Jesus Christ, in the Biblical/Oriental context, is a lot bigger than an ASCII string, like it is in Western culture and churchianity. The real name of Jesus Christ includes his credit rating, reputation, family, accomplishments, attitudes, and abilities. I mention those things all the time.
But the BIG mentioning (cue the orchestra) of the name of Jesus Christ (doojable, brace for comm’l) that I do a lot is when I mention (drum roll) HIS MIND, which was given to us in printed form (choir sings “PFAL”) to assimilate into our own being as an alternative to our rotten natural man minds with rotten man-made religiosity. Anyone want to try some “mind of Christ” for a change?
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waysider
Hey, Mike!
Ever notice how frequently "the written forms of PFAL" is the focal point of your posts and how infrequently Jesus shows up?
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