A note on forgiving

[Neo]

hi there fellow greasespotters!...........since this thread seems to have a life of its own, i thought i'd like to set the record straight by correcting the poster who complained on post #670 of this thread that it was i who was among the first to derail it..........it was this very same poster who brought up nathan friedly's participation in a fellowlaborers program run by cff, and nathan's "membership" in cff just a few posts before my first post on this thread (post#37 on page 2).......as a result of nathan's reply to that poster's suggestion that nathan is indeed a faithful follower of cff, i posted the following........

Hi there Nathan Friedly!........welcome to the greasespot cafe!........you seem like a very nice young man........thank you for your posts here.......i hope you'll stick around long enough to enjoy some of the many varying theological cusines that our menu has to offer!......i particularly enjoy our house special reality brew.......i find it stimulating and really an "eye-opener" on those hard-to-get-out-of -the-bed-you've-made-for-yourself days!.........i hope you will too.......

your topic here, "A note on forgiving", caught my attention today!..........it has been a topic of particular practical import and impact for many of us who frequent this place.........maybe, as you've "read around" here, you've come across some threads that delve into this same topic?.........if not, check them out........you may find them of interest and/or value.......

your posts on this thread, and on the "tightly wrapped packages" thread, have stirred up some questions in me that i'd like to ask you.......it would be really loving of you to answer them if and when you get a chance.........you mention "the word" many times.........for example,......."god's word", "the true and accurate word", "the accurate word", "speaking the word", "the truth of god's word", etc.,..........what are you referring to when you refer to "the word"??.........what is "the word" in CFF?........

you mentioned that you are in CFF's "fellowlabourers program", which you describe as a "leadersip training program"........i'm wondering, when it comes to "forgiving", i am interested to know if CFF teaches anything about the unique and specific responsibilities of "leaders" in the church of the body of christ, when it comes to their practical application of the doctrines and "processes" of forgiving and forgiveness?..........from my limited understanding of the christian scriptures, it seems that there are demands made of "leaders" in the church regarding such things as repentance for wrongs committed by them towards the believers in their church, which are additional requirements for "leaders" in order to enjoy the forgiveness from the believers who have been wronged, for the wrongs committed against them...........are there??...........i notice that you mention rev. wayne clapp (his name is on the link you provided on the "packages" thread), and quote rev. john nessle..........under whose auspices were these CFF leaders ordained?........do they have formal seminary training or credentials from an accredited christian college or seminary?.......do they have formal training in biblical exegesis, or textual criticism?........do they have formal training in greek, hebrew, aramaic or latin?.........are they thus qualified to provide you "fellowlabourers" with "the true and accurate word" in your leadership training? ......what formal, professional training do they have in christian ministry or counselling?.........do they adhere to the "principles of biblical research" as taught in and by the way international?........were they "leaders" in TWI??..........if so, have they apologized to the believers they may have wronged during their time as TWI leaders?.........do they need to?..........did they teach you "fellowlabourers" to "lump loving and forgiving in together" as you stated you do?......... if so, what is their scriptural basis for this "lumping together"?..........or is this just something you have developed on your own?

you stated that you never considered CFF to be a TWI OFFSHOOT...........but, since visiting the greasespot, you may now consider CFF to indeed be an OFFSHOOT of TWI.......because, as you said, "i guess we do have a lot of the old way folks in our group"...........may i offer my opinion that, it is not WHO is in your group which makes it a TWI OFFSHOOT, but rather, WHAT is taught and promulgated by CFF leaders, which makes it an OFFSHOOT of TWI........what do you think?........also, the "original manuscript" of about 70% of the content of the PFAL BOOK that you say you're trying to get a copy of can be found in E.W. Bullinger's book "HOW TO ENJOY THE BIBLE"........which, imho, is a more expertly and finely written book, authored by an eminently more qualified scholar than vp!.........i'm pretty sure your dad has a copy lying around somewhere........or if not,.........surely your CFF bookstore or library will have one.......check it out, nathan.....it really is a much better read!

i sure hope you don't get defensive from this "barrage" of questions!.........please don't, or you'll miss the point of my asking them..........hope you won't mind doing the work it may take to answer these questions..........i really do appreciate you taking the time to think about them and answer them.......it should provide a good learning opportunity for both of us, don't you think??........thanks again for this thread , and your posts!.........nice meeting you here at the greasespot......come and sit a spell..........enjoy our reality brew!.........the first cup's on me!!..........................peace.

This post has been edited by Don'tWorryBeHappy: Dec 14 2007, 10:51 PM

so, there it is!..........now all of you readers can judge for yourselves whether or not i need more "reproof" from you for derailing this thread........i eagerly await such reproof from those who deem it necessary based on the "record" this thread itself provides!..........nathan answered one question, and lied in answer to one other, when he stated that there is "no link" between twi and cff.......the rest of my questions to him were never answered, and remain unanswered to this date!

my quetions concerning the topic of forgiveness were totally ignored by nathan, as well as by the vic apologists who are the posters most responsible for the numerous "derails" since i first asked those questions on post #37.........the author of post #670 continues to amaze me with his persistence at derailing this thread with posts that can only be described as firsthand evidence that he is firmly committed to self-righteously, arrogantly and condescendingly remaining "stuck on stupid"!.........his many derailing questions have been anwsered repeatedly, in many different ways, by many posters on this thread, yet he apparently is unable to simply, objectively read what has been written here!..........perhaps a course in remedial reading would be helpful, along with some tips on improving one's memory!

the questions regarding forgiveness of vic, lcm, cff leaders, are all part of the consistent efforts of the vic apologists to keep this thread (or any thread, for that matter) focused on what THEY want, not whatever the topic of the thead may be.........they insist upon demanding that there is some "biblical", or "scriptural" truth that somehow requires all extwi folks to forgive the aforementioned "leaders" for their "crimes and misdemeanors" against the body of christ!.......with acute faithfulness to the techniques of private interpretation of the scriptures they seem to have adopted completely from vic, they take entire sections of scripture from all over the bible, and attempt to prove their false premises, assumptions , and interpretations as being somehow "true" to "the word"...........and then point their smug, self-righteous fingers accusingly at those who have the god-given right, according to those same scriptures, to demand and expect an apology from those "leaders", as well as expecting that those same "leaders" conform to the numerous scriptures addressed specifically to real "leaders" in the chuirch, as recorded in the so-called pastoral epistles of timothy, titus and philemon!.....somehow, in their promulgation of vic and his twisted theology, they completely avoid or ignore these pastoral epistles, which are chock-full of specific commands and requirements of "leaders", and "elders", and "bishops", etc., that are above and beyond those of your "average believer" in the body of christ!......these pastoral epistles fully deal with all the smokescreen questions that vic apologists throw out around here, while totally ignoring what is clearly written in those pastoral epistles which answers the very questions they ask!!.............it gets to the point where jesus' teaching regarding "casting pearls before swine" is the only way one can justify responding to anything the vic apologists post!

let me quote a few things from the corps notes section of the waydale documents archive on the greasespot homepage.........these are from the corps meeting notes of september 28, 1994

Leah Martindale is not allowed alone with a boy during the ROA; not allowed on certain parts of the grounds; not allowed to go somewhere that they don't know where she is.

Found 14 more homos. Still happening--still confronting. About 10% of those who were going out WOW were homos.Believing Principles of a Christian Family Bottom line is children obey your parents in the Lord.

Protect the household. It's the spirits that are evil.

Any Corps who go back in debt after getting out of debt should be DFAC. It's got to be spirit influenced!

Change a bad habit by intense daily concentration and effort. Kick your own butt to don't mindlessly fall back into those areas. Help each other stay sharp.

Jesus Christ is the true shepherd in Ezekiel.

If people don't want help, why waste time on them. Forgiveness is for those who want forgiveness.

Jeremiah 9:6 False ministry. Whole households and fellowships we could just shut off if they don't stand with us.

Spirit is thicker than blood. Word stands when you mean business. Plenty of men and women stood against their children (or parents.) They should have remorse and want to correct it. 1 Timothy 4:1 "In the latter times" is now and since the day of Pentecost.

[some things God revealed to VPW on the night he first S.I.T. One of them was that it would never get so dark that only one person stands.]

Why: Giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. It's the reason anyone leaves.

i suggest you read the whole thing if you want more "context" concerning the above excerpts.......although, the doofus from okie's "teaching style" does not really lend itself much to establishing any context to his "revelatory rants"!.........but, i particularly want to direct your attention to the following, "if people don't want help, why waste time on them? FORGIVENESS IS FOR THOSE WHO WANT FORGIVENESS"!........"THEY SHOULD HAVE REMORSE AND WANT TO CORRECT IT"......vic nor king okie obviously never wanted or needed our "help", or "forgiveness".......that's why i've never "wasted time on them" by forgiving them!.........and, since any who chose to leave twi and all its false teachings and evil practicies did so by "giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. It's THE reason anyone leaves."!...........no room is ever left for open, honest discussion, because all those who left "should have remorse and want to correct" all the reasons we left!.......should vic or king okie have remorse and want to correct their "crimes and misdemeanors"??........did they have any "bad habits" they needed to "change by intense daily concentration and effort"??............of course not........in their minds they never did anything wrong......they had no "bad habits"........it's only all those possessed "cop-outs" that left who need to do things like change bad habits!!!

in closing, permit me to once again quote my pal, Al: "most people say that it is the intellect which makes a great scientist. they are wrong! it is character."........and, from Martin Luther King Jr., " i look forward to the day when my children will be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character"..........i judge vic, lcm, twi, ces, cff, word promotions, et al, not by the "color" of their websites, teachings, or programs, but rather by the content of their "christian" character, as demonstrated by their consistent actions and practices, past and PRESENT!..........which actions and practices have been "weighed in the balances, and found wanting" according to the very "word of god" they claim to be standing on!...................i apologize for the "derail"!!...............................peace.

I am sorry for not replying to this sooner! Who do you think you are? How dare you come in here and puke your garbage! I for one believe what Dr. taught, and if you have a problem with that why don't you tell the others who you are? If anyone should apologize it should be you! In addition, maybe you need to learn how to write! Go back and reread what you wrote! Bless you! :off topic:

[excathedra]

ooooooh those "bless you" vibes came thorough

[waysider]

I am sorry for not replying to this sooner! Who do you think you are? How dare you come in here and puke your garbage! I for one believe what Dr. taught, and if you have a problem with that why don't you tell the others who you are? If anyone should apologize it should be you! In addition, maybe you need to learn how to write! Go back and reread what you wrote! Bless you! :off topic:

Hello, Neo

You have stated you believe what Dr. taught.

I have taken the liberty of bolding that portion of your post.

Is there something in particular that you believe or are you making an all inclusive statement?

[brideofjc]

No, I'd never participate in any of their crapola. It's all just the same 'ol same 'ol no doubt. No, I'm staying up here in Alaska...

That must be in the same neighborhood of my "Trashola" of the agent orange book!

[Neo]

ooooooh those "bless you" vibes came thorough

Thanks for your reply. Love ya.

[brideofjc]

or a p rick ?

Ex....

Do be so kind...my dear woman....exactly who is P. Rick?

I don't recall any posts by this person :)

[Neo]

Hello, Neo

You have stated you believe what Dr. taught.

I have taken the liberty of bolding that portion of your post.

Is there something in particular that you believe or are you making an all inclusive statement?

All of the above!

[excathedra]

you're welcome

i meant through not thorough

perhaps a wierwillian slip ha !

love ya :)

[Neo]

you're welcome

i meant through not thorough

perhaps a wierwillian slip ha !

love ya :)

HaHaHa

[waysider]

All of the above!

I think I used that answer on one of the questions in the "Home Studies" series.

Shhhhh!!!---- Let's keep that our little secret.

[Eyesopen]

I am sorry for not replying to this sooner! Who do you think you are? How dare you come in here and puke your garbage! I for one believe what Dr. taught, and if you have a problem with that why don't you tell the others who you are? If anyone should apologize it should be you! In addition, maybe you need to learn how to write! Go back and reread what you wrote! Bless you! :off topic:

Reminds me of Whoopie in Sister Act..."Bless you, Eddie!"

[Neo]

I think I used that answer on one of the questions in the "Home Studies" series.

Shhhhh!!!---- Let's keep that our little secret.

Why wait sooooo long to disagree with what you were taught? Why attack Dr. now?

Reminds me of Whoopie in Sister Act..."Bless you, Eddie!"

That reply was not meant for the majority here at grease spot. I am only talking to one person! Let him answer for himself!

[excathedra]

Why attack Dr. now?

why not ?

i'm just kidding

i'm not attacking him. i'm just telling my story which i feel is my right

he was not the man you knew him to be

okay ?

goodnight no offense

[Eyesopen]

That reply was not meant for the majority here at grease spot. I am only talking to one person! Let him answer for himself!

Wow, you seem to be wound a little tightly. I dont recall anything in my post that was "answering" for DWBH it was simply an observation. An observation that I made on a post that you placed in a public forum. Now you dont want anyone to comment on it? Seems like perhaps if you want to talk to DWBH, you appear to know him if so then why not just give him a call? Why address your concerns in public if you dont want an audience?

Edited February 28, 2008 by Eyesopen

[waysider]

Why wait sooooo long to disagree with what you were taught? Why attack Dr. now?

That reply was not meant for the majority here at grease spot. I am only talking to one person! Let him answer for himself!

Neo

Do you think my posts attack Dr.?

I really don't think they do.

The doctrine he taught was poison, especially the nonsense about the supposed "law of believing".

Is that statement an attack on the man or simply an expose of the false doctrine he taught?

If I say the man was alcoholic sexual predator, is that an attack or an observation?

Regarding your question about the time factor:

There was a very long period that I did not disagree with what I was taught because I was, for the most part, ignorant about what really happened.

That's my answer in a nut-shell.

[socks]

Is not believing what Dr. taught the new criteria for having to tell people who we are?

I know who bedon'tworryhappy is. Don't you Neo? If not, what difference does identity make?

Who are you?

I'm a sock. Really. Don't let the Calvin icon fool you. I'm socks.

You're not talking to me, but I'll talk to you to make it easier, as you've touched on a topic of interest to me.

Attacking Dr. isn't what I'm interested in. He's gone, and while a lot of posters here feel like "good riddance", I don't. But not everyone with ill feelings towards the man are truly "attacking" him. I do wish he were alive today. This would all be much simpler for a lot of people if he were.

But time and age catches us all. So he's not.

Some of the questions I had while he was alive have taken years for me to work on, some still am and I expect I will for awhile longer, given more time. It's fun, actually. I mean, I'm as old now as he was when I knew him. Some things in the bible aren't as easy to understand as they might appear with a cursory reading or word study. Life has been good in Christian faith, don't get me wrong, but at this stage I can only say that I'd love to discuss many topics with him if he were alive today - I think if he listened and we did exchange information he'd benefit from it, as would I. But that's not going to happen now for obvious reasons.

So while I don't see much use in wasting a whole lot of my time ruminating on his past, there are some issues that get disussed here that I have no first hand experience with. I've been able to learn a fair amount from those who did.

Back to DWBH - are you sure you don't know who that is?

[Neo]

Wow, you seem to be wound a little tightly. I dont recall anything in my post that was "answering" for DWBH it was simply an observation. An observation that I made on a post that you placed in a public forum. Now you dont want anyone to comment on it? Seems like perhaps if you want to talk to DWBH, you appear to know him if so then why not just give him a call? Why address your concerns in public if you dont want an audience?

You are wright, I am upset that he had the nerve to post what he did and just like Paul did I am confronting him to his face! Let him answer for himself. It is not about you please do not take it that way.

[doojable]

perhaps a wierwillian slip ha !

He had a slip! Wow! Did it have lace?

[WhiteDove]

And both messages are viewed both with admiration and disdain - depending on who you speak to.

White Dove and Oldies,

I see one major problem with this line of thinking. While both men may have committed the same 'sins' - and both had a "great message" (at least in your eyes), all that proves is that it is possible for a man with some "great ideas" to also partake in wrongdoing.

Not really, it also proves that while they may exhibit traits that are not admirable, or scriptural, we don't have to throw out what they said or taught based on their actions either as some have suggested. Wrong doing is wrongdoing and truth is truth, each can be examined and discarded or kept. one does not always rely on the other, although in some cases they do affect each other.

All this is said while I consider that MLK moved a nation to change - while VP only moved a bunch of us to purchase more camping equipment.

That might be your opinion , Not mine, I think VPW moved a lot of people to change for the better, and those moved more, and those moved more, even today new ones are being moved. I'd be willing to bet that more think that way than those who think he only moved us to buy camping equipment. MLK for the most part brought about civil change in living conditions on this earth, primarily in the USA I believe that VPW brought about eternal change for many throughout the world. People are still hearing the scripture from people he trained in India and South America, and Africa today. Unfortunately at the same time he also changed other lives for the worse.

Edited February 28, 2008 by WhiteDove

[Eyesopen]

You are right, I am upset that he had the nerve to post what he did and just like Paul did I am confronting him to his face! Let him answer for himself. It is not about you please do not take it that way.

I'm not taking it personal. But I'm also not answering for him. Please do not assume that I am. He's a big boy he can take care of himself. As can I.

Have a nice evening Neo, I truly hope you get the confrontation that you are looking for...your words not mine.

[Ham]

You are wright, I am upset that he had the nerve to post what he did and just like Paul did I am confronting him to his face! Let him answer for himself. It is not about you please do not take it that way.

Sounds like more posturing here..

I'm Paul.. he's.. whatever?

I asked many of the same honest questions personally, of the guy who is supposedly spearheading the new (old) endeavor. probably "designed" for the "special" fellow laborer.. the few, the elite..

Who's running it.

What are their qualifications.

What qualified people do you have on staff.

Oh, the little "we can terminate the program at any time".. is it a threat you'll hold over the trainees and scream if they don't seem to muster up the superhuman strength to cut and stack firewood, take care of your farm animals, hoe the garden, AND be able to stay awake for four more hours listening to old "doc" vic's tapes at night? Something like "take our .... or leave"? Of course I asked that question a lot more politely..

What do you do when someone gets hurt in this "extreme" adventure?

Blame them because of their supposed lack of believing, and send them home?

Do you REALLY think that having the enrollees sign a hold harmless agreement will REALLY protect you if you can be shown to be negligent?

Do you know about the abuses that were "enjoyed" in the old system, the one you are trying to resurrect..

What safeguards have you put in the "program" to keep THAT from happening again..

or are you just going to run a spiritually and physically slip shod operation like the one before turned out to be?

What kind of five year plan do you have to get these people through some REAL education, REAL qualifications? If you don't, you're sunk.. you're just gonna teach people how to live in poverty..

Are you just gonna raise another bunch of hardened yes men, bound to some standard that even you can't live up to?

as far as qualifications.. "well, I was on fellow laborers.. isn't that good enough.."

"Marine Corps" for the "body of Christ".. bull sheet. You haven't even been through basic training yourself to begin with..

You've got the name, but hardly the means..

and the question I didn't ask, before communication was shut off:

and the staff. Yes.. the staff..

what kind of a system of ACCOUNTABILITY do you have in place? Or are they all just old "aunts and uncles" from the old way organization.. those who "can do no wrong"? "Honorable" counsellors, whom you may not have the balls to confront?

What if an enrollee claims that someone laid a greasy hand on them? What do you do? Send them home, claiming they must be POSSESSED to make such a claim? It worked for the old organization on more than one ocassion..

where are the checks and balances?

If these questions bring someone to a rage.. the only thing I can say, is you REALLY haven't thought the program through.

You may not care for, or ask for an evaluation from the *special* graduates at the end of the year..

but in twenty years.. or maybe thirty, those you put through your "training" very well may be writing YOUR evaluations in a place like Greasespot..

will we be reading the same thing? Reports of "Incidents" that were carefully swept under a rug, along with passioned pleas for forgiveness? "Just get over it brotha.. look what Jesus went through.."

[doojable]

Why wait sooooo long to disagree with what you were taught? Why attack Dr. now?

Two thoughts in that line:

I disagreed with some of it while I was still in. The longer I've been out the more I've found questionable. The reason I left was because I disagreed with having to choose to serve one man or another.

Attack? Since when is a discussion an attack? Just how do you attack a dead man anyway? :blink:

[alfakat]

Neo...get over it... this is a FREE board, open for discussion. You are obviously still living in 1985, thinking about going to the Rock, etc., etc.

lotsa water over the dam, under the bridge and out to sea since then.

perhaps a bit of serious reading will catch you up on what happened that was NOT shouted from the main stage every August.

All things are Never as they seem...take a moment to consider that this forum has existed for 6-7 years and still people show up on a regular basis who had NO idea any of this ever happened....

[rascal]

Neo, why would you defend a man who raped your sisters in christ physically, and your brothers spiritually??

I have to wonder at anyone who would attack another in defense of this man :(

[oldiesman]

Oldies - I'm wondering how you would explain the difference between the post quoted above to DWBH and this post that you recently made in another thread concerning your experiences with vp:

I'm assuming that you have never met Martin Luther King Jr. You neither saw nor experienced his "womanizing and adultery" - correct?

I wonder why your first post is not considered bearing false witness.

Please explain and give three examples...

Wait. Did you witness the adultery or not?

Doojable,

Thanks for the correction. To be more accurate in the future, I will use the word "alleged", since I didn't witness it.

So here's my modified statement:

"The parallel I'd make is that both were alleged adulterers, both had great messages, and the messages are worth considering and repeating despite their alleged sins."