I was asking about the Greek line you quoted. What text is that exact quote from, and in which century was the ink still wet?
So tell me, you're happy with verse 17 as you quoted it and as it appears in the KJV?
Man, I nearly had a cow when I saw that verse. It didn't sit well with me at all.
I wonder how many other grads either never saw that verse and passage, versus how many were religiously complacent in accepting it, contradictions, destruction and all.
***
I use the NA27 or the UBS4. Since there isn't any extant mss that are in their entire form, I'm sure it is a compilation of numerous papyrii fragments.
So I'm still waiting to hear what you think is the contradiction and the improperly translated word. I'm pretty sure I know....but I'm waiting to hear it from
you...ahhh....your pedagogical device has run its gamut. For those students that are not in the 5th grade, that device has worn itself out. So do tell.
RD's teaching to us in the Corps on the ark of the covenant was one of the best teachings I ever heard in my whole time in residence. It was amazing and has stayed with me to this day.
The greatness of the temple and ark of the tabernacle cannot be underestimated. Every single item in it propheycized Christ - the Messiah to come. Every single action pointed to him. God dwelt with Israel on the Mercy Seat (which, pointing to Christ, covered their sins). They followed his glorious cloud. When it moved, they moved.
Very sad to read about the cloud leaving in increments when they turned away from him. From the seat, to the entrance, to the doorway, outside, gone.
Yet, we are then told that Christ was the LIVING tabernacle of God among men when he walked here.
God was again tabernacled among men.
Christ, whose flesh veiled the God within.
Christ, the living tabernacle. It blows my mind.
Thanks to RD, I understand.
The study of the tablernacle, ark and temple in the Bible is fascinating - its all over the Bible.
It is also a pattern of the heavenly tabernacle. God's heavenly temple revealed on earth.
YO.........MIKE!............don't feel badly that ham has not yet answered your question from your post #419 on page 21 of this thread........or, your post #421 on page 22 of this thread.............i asked a number of questions of the poster who started this thread in my post #37 on page 2 of this thread.........got no answers yet!!..........as a matter of fact, all i got was a blatant lie.........."no link".........from nathan friedly's last post on this thread!..........so, in my post #72 on page 4 of this thread, i asked a bunch more questions........to this date, after over 350 more posts to this thread......i still have not gotten an answer to any of those questions!...........so, in my post #84 on page 5 of this thread, i asked some more questions...........to date, still no answers to any of them!...............so, in my post #200 on page 10 of this thread, i asked some more of the same questions.......to date, still no answers to any of them!............so,.......here we are on page 22 of this thread, some 200 plus posts since my last post, and, still.......not one answer to any of my questions!!............you're doing great so far with getting answers to your questions.........but you have not answered those posed to you by T-Bone and others just a page or two ago..........so........here's a couple more for ya.........
when jesus christ returns, with pfal book in hand (as you've taught us he will)......will the "standard" by which we will be held accountable for "every word" we speak be according to pfal?........what "word" or words will jesus christ use to judge us by?..........is jesus christ done "working and studying" pfal yet?..........is he using your tapes and transcripts, or just what twi published under vic's name?.............feel free to take another couple of hundred posts to answer my questions if you need to........but, please answer T-Bone's and Doojable's and Ham's first!..................thanks!...............peace.
My, DWBH, you are organized with your questions..
the "endless loop of reasoning" I was alluding to Mike, it's kinda like one of my cats. He gets on the bed, goes in circles for a couple of minutes, sometimes attacking his tail. When he wears himself out, he usually stops in the particular position, or point of view when he's just too tired to go on..
:)
I think that happens to some people who saw the vicster with his pants down, so to speak.
"well, he's the mog, isn't he? da word says so.. but he's disgusting.. can't be a mog and do that to people.. but then again, he speaks in da tongues.. has to be what he claims.. but then again.."
eventually some come to the conclusion that the food tasted better way back then, when they didn't know about the plagiarism, the adultery the abuse.. the giving and accepting of bribes.. the dispicible behavior..
The cold reality of being "had" is not an option. For some people.
But here goes..
See.. gold, silver, stones.. wood, hay.. stubble.. all happen to be good building material. All are suitable, depending on the climate I suppose.
I for one would not want to try to build on that foundation lies, arrogance, plagiarism, adultery, pornography, alcoholic rages, and other forms of uncleanness in general.. they are not exactly good building materials. In fact, they introduce CORRUPTION.
I see no contradiction.. that is, if one actually believes the account to begin with..
"the one who the temple CORRUPTS, CORRUPTION will bring to him God.."
Forgive the old vicster, or loy.. or others? I don't think it's in my power.. so why do some think we actually have a real NEED to forgive them?
Personally, I've merely come to terms with their character. What they ARE, is what they DO, or did..
maybe that's the best I can do.
false ministers falsely minister.. adulterers commit adultery, abusers abuse.. plagiarizers plagiarize.. strivers strive, liars lie.. haters hate, wolves eat sheep.. but rarely, would they eat their own kind or offspring.
but when you find ALL of these "fine qualities" wrapped up in one, or two individuals.. doesn't that say something?
It's like a proof by construction. If he fits all the axioms.. why can't one simply extend their horizons, and come to the obvious conclusion?
Plus it wasn't just one or two individuals.. most of these fine qualities were easily observable in one limb leader I knew.. and a couple of limb coordinators later.. and ALMOST every single branch coordinator.. two region coordinators..
most were trained by vic, one I think, only loy trained him..
Ra*ph D was about the only one above reproach, of those who I have SOME personal knowledge of.
I think at least half of these negative qualities are observable in several offshoot leadership..
some of them, I see not overt evil, but spiritual if not intellectual blindness. Just plain clueless.
"unfit" for the "ministry"..
They claim to have left "gawd's ministry" with the GOLD?
Did you feed me when I was hungry?? Did you visit me when I was in jail? Did you give me a drink when I was thirsty??
Rascal: Well sir, I don`t remember seeing you in particular...
JC: Well wasn`t there was always extra spaghetti or soup in the pot for a sick neighbor??
Rascal: Well ...yeah ... I fed any strays that I could human, but mostly animal...
JC: and didn`t you volunteer in the animal shelters, the battered womans shelter????
Rascal: Well, yes, I did... ....
JC: I know that in town, I saw you buy burgers at mcdonalds to throw to the mangy stray cat that lived under the bush outside...I saw the times you drove around and tossed pizza slices to the stray dogs on cold nights. The times you gave your lunch to the starving mama dogs who couldn`t feed their pups...
Rascal; Well ummm I tried, and I tried to teach my children to ease suffering where they could too :(
JC: Well you know now...that when you did that to the least of these...you really did it unto me... ...
I always knew you would be the guilty one of giving someone a coronary.
From what I've seen in God's Word, we ALL are disgusting when we walk in our old man nature.
The degrees or intensity of how evil any one action is are a purely human phenomenon. What we humans perceive as “not all THAT bad” really means we perceive the damage to others as minimal.
For instance, getting drunk and driving a car that hurts someone else is considered by humans as very evil nowadays. Getting equally drunk and sitting on the front porch is something we might be more willing to give a pass for, even though God is robbed of the fellowship He craves and deserves equally in both instances.
Another example: Our laws go even farther in the sense-knowledge mis-recognition of degrees of evil. Attempted murder is often far less punishable a crime than actual murder. The intents in the hearts of two people may be equally evil in intending to kill, but our laws reward the incompetent would-be killer with less punishment. Dang! I’d like to put equal distances between me and BOTH of those evil minded people, regardless of their unequal ABILITY inflict harm. It’s the intent that would matter to me. If they both have equally evil intent in the heart I'd feel equally threatened, because ability or luck can change.
The sense-knowledge recognition of degrees of evil is superficial and dull. What happens in the heart is very difficult for people (and especially governments) to discern, so we usually fall back on the focusing on the external damage caused to weigh the degree of evil from our perspective. In everyday life we often give a pass to those who do not have the ABILITY to harm us, even though their hearts may be quite off base. God is equally offended because He looks at the heart.
Jeremiah 17:9-10a
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked:
who can know it?
I the LORD search the heart,
I try the reins...
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
with their tongues they have used deceit;
the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Romans 7:20-24
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that,
when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am!
who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
This is talking about US ALL. If someone thinks their heart is free from this curse, then they have not seen what Jeremiah and Paul saw.
I’ve often posted this: if any one of us had the troops, we’d have invaded Poland by now, just like Hitler.
This is figurative language of course. But I know from experience and from the Word that if we loose it, break fellowship, and happen to have a lot of power and ability, then the evil that’s always in our hearts can leak out in most embarrassing way. It’s often a good thing that we are not very, very powerful people. The more earthly power a person has, the easier it is to display what God’s Word says about the heart of all of Adam’s descendants. The more earthly power a person has the more motivated is the adversary in tapping that power for his purposes.
Thank God most of us don’t have the troops to inflict this kind of heart on too many others. Fortunately, we can walk in a mind other than our own old man nature. We can walk in the mind of Christ.
... Forgive the old vicster, or loy.. or others? I don't think it's in my power...
That’s right. You don’t have that power. Neither do I.
But we CAN walk in the mind of Christ and put it on to rise up to that level of forgiveness. We can get better and better at walking that way and minimize the leaking out that old man nature wants so desperately to do. Eventually we can become the man we know to be and become Jesus Christ men and women, with that old man nature dead. This is what makes it all worth it. If I didn’t believe that we can rise up to this height, I wouldn’t bother with any of this stuff.
We were often taught what Ephesians exhorts, that our real enemies in life are not the humans who inflict damage but the spirits that direct that damage. That doesn't necessarily mean we close our eyes to the humans who damage. But I've seen that most WILL close their eyes to the spirits involved.
There will never be any satisfaction for those who want to “get even.” There is great satisfaction in sorting all these things out to see what is treasure and what is worth forgetting.
Putting on the mind of Christ is available to us grads in ways and in abundance that have not been experienced in thousands of years. Our destiny is to rise up and be like him, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Mike said......From what I've seen in God's Word, we ALL are disgusting when we walk in our old man nature.
The degrees or intensity of how evil any one action is are a purely human phenomenon. What we humans perceive as “not all THAT bad” really means we perceive the damage to others as minimal.
Judging from scriptures, I`d say God differs in that opinion...there is sin, and then there is a list of abominations.
THAT is pure Bull sheet, taught by a man of the flesh so that his heinous walk of the flesh didn`t appear to be so horrific.
Mike also said..........For instance, getting drunk and driving a car that hurts someone else is considered by humans as very evil nowadays. Getting equally drunk and sitting on the front porch is something we might be more willing to give a pass for, even though God is robbed of the fellowship He craves and deserves equally in both instances.
I (rascal) think that is completely insane....someone who drinks and hurts or kills someone??
In one instance you have pain, expenses, medical expenses loss of life, loss that never ends for family members deprived of their loved ones....verses someone having a good time in the safety of their own home....geemany what an assinine statement.
Yet I get it....if adultery, drugging and raping your flock can be equated with letting a dirty word slip, then one is half way there to excusing the evidence of wierwilles fruit that totally busts him as a man of the flesh.
Mike said....The sense-knowledge recognition of degrees of evil is superficial and dull. What happens in the heart is very difficult for people (and especially governments) to discern, so we usually fall back on the focusing on the external damage caused to weigh the degree of evil from our perspective. In everyday life we often give a pass to those who do not have the ABILITY to harm us, even though their hearts may be quite off base. God is equally offended because He looks at the heart.
I (rascal) say that is sense knowledge crap to attempt to excuse the significance of the fruit of a mans life. Galations 5 tells us EXACTLY how to know what PRECISELY is in a mans heart. That you chose to ignore it doesn`t mean that God didn`t give us warnings, sign posts and measuring sticks by which to ascertain a man`s spirituality or lack there of.
Mike, the doctrine of a man of the flesh will always lack legitimacy in spiritual matters...He just can`t grasp or comprehend those things....so he spends his life doing works. Vic was able to fool people as long as his dirty little secrets were kept lock box. Now that his fruit is out there for the whole world to examine, most people can recognize and accept him for the Man of the flesh, the wolf in sheeps clothing, the devourer of the flock that he really was.
God said we could tell one another by our fruit. Your doctrine is built around saying we can`t and explaining why fruit is not significant.
I`m telling you....all of the white wash in the world cannot cover the putrid stenche of the disease and decay inside THAT sepulcher.
Soooo what do you do WTH? Hand out bean sprouts n tofu?
I gave what I had, left over pizza from the restaurant I worked at. I gave my own lunch, and if I didn`t have anything to eat, I bought what I could afford, a dollar double cheese burger.
Mike, the doctrine of a man of the flesh will always lack legitimacy.
I agree. And this applies to you and me too, right? When you or I walk in our old man nature, the doctrine we teach is easy to manipulate by the adversary to hurt people.
But you and I can also recognize the deadness of our old man nature and choose to walk in the mind of Christ. When you or I do that we CAN get doctrine right and bless people.
Same for VPW. When he walked with God he blessed big. When he didn’t the adversary was SURE to get in there and maximize the damage.
He was able to fool people as long as his dirty little secrets were kept lock box.
That’s not the whole story. It’s an insignificant part at best.
He was able to bless people when they recognized that the evil in everyone’s life is going to happen but there can be good also, just like in Romans 7. If we can’t overlook the evil in a minister’s life then we will never find a minister, because all are of Adam’s fallen race except for one, Jesus Christ.
Now that his fruit is out there for the whole world to examine, most people can recognize and accept him for the Man of the flesh, the wolf in sheeps clothing, the devourer of the flock that he really was.
I disagree. I think it’s REPORTS of his evil that are out there for the whole world to examine. I think those reports are largely exaggerated and sometimes even downright false. There’s no way I’m going to give the same validity to complaints about 25 year old offences that I give to the massive and ongoing benefits I derive from his written works. I see that the complainers are often quite empty when it comes to their retention of the good I know did come from his teaching.
If those posters who give such eloquence and intensity to reporting Dr’s evil also were able to give me eloquent and intense teaching on God and His Son (like Dr did), THEN I might give some credence to their reports. But that is not the case; not even close.
Dr’s good and pure fruit (the books and articles) is also out there for the whole world to examine, but I CONSTANTLY see here that what Dr taught in print was not nearly as well absorbed as the corrupted twi verbal traditions (TVTs) were absorbed.
It’s all in what we choose to look at.
God said we could tell one another by our fruit. Your doctrine is built around explaining why it is not significant.
No it’s not built on that at all. The insignificance of bad fruit is a RESULT of my doctrine, not a foundation. The foundation is the GREAT GOOD that you have turned your eyes from, the pureness of the new birth, the forgiveness of God, the price paid by Jesus Christ, etc. etc. When these wonderful doctrinal items are focused on the damage is minimized and healed.
All of the white wash in the world cannot cover the putrid stenche of the disease and decay inside THAT sepulcher.
WOW! You got THAT one right!
It takes OUT OF THIS WORLD cleansing to fix that sepulcher, AND yours too, and mine too. I thank God He makes a way where there is no way.
If you think your old man nature stinks less than Dr’s, please read the scriptures I posted above, in the post before this one.
If you think you can discipline your walk better than Dr’s, let’s see YOUR fruit. I’m not interested in how well you can “blow the whistle.” Anyone can do that; the world’s full of finger pointing.
Try walking in that mind of Christ with all that whistle blowing energy you seem to have and see if you get better fruit.
Must've been another national geographic thing.. I saw where people that were savaged by bears, sharks..
they didn't exactly forgive the bear, or shark.
They just finally came to terms with the beast's nature.
"no, it wasn't personal.. he was just following his brute instincts. would have ripped the lungs indiscriminately out of anyone who walked by his den.."
maybe the bear "blessed" someone in the meantime.. threw them a few "leftovers"..
I'm glad you got "blessed" mack..
just don't read the ingredients of the stew you partook of..
just don't read the ingredients of the stew you partook of..
You people crack me up sometimes. I wonder how difficult it would be to find a Ham post where the those same “ingredients” are praised. Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, Etc.
I know of many others here who will praise the content of those men’s writings, or symphonize with other posters who do the same, and lament that these wonderful teachers were plagiarized.
So, Ham, did Kenyon serve bad stew? Bullinger? Leonard? I’m trying to get you in trouble with posters who love those teachers.
Must've been another national geographic thing.. I saw where people that were savaged by bears, sharks..
they didn't exactly forgive the bear, or shark.
They just finally came to terms with the beast's nature.
"no, it wasn't personal.. he was just following his brute instincts. would have ripped the lungs indiscriminately out of anyone who walked by his den.."
maybe the bear "blessed" someone in the meantime.. threw them a few "leftovers"..
IMHO hype, exaggeration and distortion are relatively easy to post. What's difficult is getting things accurate.
Ham, I'd say you got the proportions entirely wrong in your analogy, so it breaks down right away, serving only the purposes of besmirchment. You minimize the benefits of Dr's teaching and maximize the damage of his flesh to reflect and harmonize with the demographics of active posters here.
If you were to want to do the same for what I suspect is a much larger read-only population here, and what I KNOW is a MUCH MUCH larger population of GreaseSpot avoiders who strongly appreciate Dr's teaching, you'd have to dump that analogy altogether.
Try maybe an analogy about a gentle giant who plants and plows people's fields leaving them a huge harvest to gather, but who inadvertently (or even negligently) may step on a few toes at times. This is what the vast majority of grads think of Dr and his teaching. They just don't want to fellowship with grads who focus on the negative.
Why do you suppose God chose to give Dr. W. revelation to incorporate materials that would later prove to be Biblically inaccurate?
I mean, if this was God's best shot in 2,000 years of getting his "righty divided" Word presented to the masses, wouldn't it make sense for Him to avoid the stuff that didn't pass muster?
Heck, it's "The Integrity of The Word" that's always at stake.
Am I right?
You don't have to answer on this thread if you think it will be off-topic.
Perhaps the "The Great Mystery" thread would be a more appropriate place to post your response.
This is one of the most rambling off-topic threads I've seen in awhile, so I'm not worried about it here. The originator, I think, has abandoned it and not posted at all on any thread since Christmas.
***
What do you mean by "incorporate materials that would later prove to be Biblically inaccurate"? What materials?
What authority do you cite in this matter of being Biblically inaccurate?
How do you know this is the case, especially when we have no originals, the original languages are dead, and we live in a completely different culture. Do you have revelation, or are you citing the latest authority that you think is trustworthy. Remember, you used to trust Dr, so, according to your own stand, you're a bit on the gullible side, or at least you used to have that weakness. What have you done to fix your "trust selector" since TWI?
Did you see my long response to you in the "pressed down music" thread?
I re-searched most of those things out long before the ministry collapsed in '86.
I can still teach the four crucified with no notes and a clean noteless KJV Bible. It's easy to find all the passages in each of the 4 Gospels by simply searching fort the ALL-CAPS rendering of the inscription hung on the cross. The only proof I need at the end is to open my interlinear and show that the word "one" is added to the King James version of John and is not in any of the Greek manuscripts.
Raf's thread and the majority of posters there have a pre-commitment (which they often deny) to find errors in PFAL. They don't work the principles we were taught when reading it, but instead work principles designed to find and even manufacture error. I've posted there and argued this ad infinitum in other threads.
I use an entirely different method of looking at the collaterals. I get different results. It's all in the method.
***
So, you're interested in I Cor 3:17 are you? Do you find that a comforting verse as is in the KJV?
Did you ever read that verse in your TWI days? If so, how did you handle it then?
Here's a preview:
I Cor. 3:17
“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”
Notice the italics in there. If we remove the word “temple” then we have:
“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which ye are.”
I mentioned earlier in this thread that this verse seems to almost contradict itself. Do you see it? In the first half of the verse we’re warned that we might be destroyed if we do the wrong thing. In the second half we’re “comforted” to hear that we’re holy. How skitzo is THAT?
If you want to put “temple” back in, fine. It may even be implied by the Greek grammar technicalities that are beyond me. But it still is an odd verse, isn’t it?
If you check the context, back even to the beginning of the chapter, you’ll find many soothing references that line up with us being either the temple or holy. But then verse 17a rears it’s ugly religious condemning head. The way our culture has conditioned us (especially RCs) to dread hell and God’s condemnation, this first half of verse 17 overpowers the entire passage, if not the entire chapter!
I think there is a reason no grads here have picked up on this, and a reason IT SEEMS hardly any of you EVEN READ this verse in the good old days.
I think the reason this passage is such a stranger to most of you is because of verse 17a and it’s negatives. I think most posters on this thread shoved that entire passage under the rug 25 and 35 years ago because of the chills of verse 17a.
I know when I first saw it I just HAD to ask my twig, branch, and limp leaders RIGHT AWAY! They didn't have answers, so I eventually brought it to Walter. He settled it in no time flat. He and others had seen it and worked it.
I see now that hardly anyone here spent any time with that chapter at all.
Another reason I’ve been delaying my exposition here on this verse is to give everyone a chance to speak up if they had worked that difficult verse and it’s context.
So, this is the last call.
Anyone who can explain the pain of verse 17a and how it does NOT contradict itself and the chapter, SPEAK UP NOW.
BTW - W^alter taught that to a bunch of folks. I remember specifically how he taught it and I worked it myself....
BUT - I didn't make any claims...YOU DID....
You just claimed that you "remember specifically how he taught it and I worked it myself." Maybe I better hurry up my hovering and post it before you steal my thunder. :huh:
I agree. And this applies to you and me too, right? When you or I walk in our old man nature, the doctrine we teach is easy to manipulate by the adversary to hurt people.
Mike It dies NOT apply to me.... *I* am not hurting people in the name of God. I am not lying stealing killing and destroying, using my reputation as God`s leader to intimidate and scriptures as my weapons to enforce compliance to my will.
Not even CLOSE!!!!!
But you and I can also recognize the deadness of our old man nature and choose to walk in the mind of Christ. When you or I do that we CAN get doctrine right and bless people.
I can recognize that we are either of the flesh or of the spirit....our fruit as described in galatians identifies which and what the consequences are.
That’s not the whole story. It’s an insignificant part at best.
It certainly wasn`t insignificant if YOU were the one who was drugged and raped...or it was YOUR family member who died from following vic`s doctrine and instructions. That is bull crap...the shepherd values the life of every one of his flock.
He was able to bless people when they recognized that the evil in everyone’s life is going to happen but there can be good also, just like in Romans 7. If we can’t overlook the evil in a minister’s life then we will never find a minister, because all are of Adam’s fallen race except for one, Jesus Christ.
We can recognize a false prophet and a wolf in sheeps clothing and stay away from their deceitfull practices and doctrine
I disagree. I think it’s REPORTS of his evil that are out there for the whole world to examine. I think those reports are largely exaggerated and sometimes even downright false. There’s no way I’m going to give the same validity to complaints about 25 year old offences that I give to the massive and ongoing benefits I derive from his written works. I see that the complainers are often quite empty when it comes to their retention of the good I know did come from his teaching.
You don`t have to believe mike, you have closed your ears and your heart to the anguish suffered at the man of the flesh that you venerate.
If those posters who give such eloquence and intensity to reporting Dr’s evil also were able to give me eloquent and intense teaching on God and His Son (like Dr did), THEN I might give some credence to their reports. But that is not the case; not even close.
This isn`t a forum FOR us to share eloquent and intense teachings on God and his son, that would be inapropriate.... It is a forum to discuss what happened to us in twi.
Dr’s good and pure fruit (the books and articles)
I will remind you that books and articles are works...NOT fruit. Galatians tells what fruit is.
If you think your old man nature stinks less than Dr’s, please read the scriptures I posted above, in the post before this one.
Hey friend, I have yet to be tempted to rape a brother or sister, to steal in the name of God, to destroy lives and rip families asunder....Damned right I don`t think my *old man nature* stinks like vic did.
If you think you can discipline your walk better than Dr’s, let’s see YOUR fruit.
Disciplined walk is a WORK ...it means exactly squat if not done in love...sorry friend.
Try walking in that mind of Christ with all that whistle blowing energy you seem to have and see if you get better fruit.
Heres a thought, how about YOU exercise your study skills, and familiarize yourself with Galatians and learn the difference between fruit and works ...it will blow your mind!
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doojable
I think Mike's waiting for a phone hook-up... who's in charge of chair stringing?
This might even be funny... I've got my dime for popcorn later.
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Sunesis
RD's teaching to us in the Corps on the ark of the covenant was one of the best teachings I ever heard in my whole time in residence. It was amazing and has stayed with me to this day.
The greatness of the temple and ark of the tabernacle cannot be underestimated. Every single item in it propheycized Christ - the Messiah to come. Every single action pointed to him. God dwelt with Israel on the Mercy Seat (which, pointing to Christ, covered their sins). They followed his glorious cloud. When it moved, they moved.
Very sad to read about the cloud leaving in increments when they turned away from him. From the seat, to the entrance, to the doorway, outside, gone.
Yet, we are then told that Christ was the LIVING tabernacle of God among men when he walked here.
God was again tabernacled among men.
Christ, whose flesh veiled the God within.
Christ, the living tabernacle. It blows my mind.
Thanks to RD, I understand.
The study of the tablernacle, ark and temple in the Bible is fascinating - its all over the Bible.
It is also a pattern of the heavenly tabernacle. God's heavenly temple revealed on earth.
Its a huge deal.
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J0nny Ling0
Yes, now that you mention it, that was fantastic teaching, although I only heard it on tape.
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Ham
My, DWBH, you are organized with your questions..
the "endless loop of reasoning" I was alluding to Mike, it's kinda like one of my cats. He gets on the bed, goes in circles for a couple of minutes, sometimes attacking his tail. When he wears himself out, he usually stops in the particular position, or point of view when he's just too tired to go on..
:)
I think that happens to some people who saw the vicster with his pants down, so to speak.
"well, he's the mog, isn't he? da word says so.. but he's disgusting.. can't be a mog and do that to people.. but then again, he speaks in da tongues.. has to be what he claims.. but then again.."
eventually some come to the conclusion that the food tasted better way back then, when they didn't know about the plagiarism, the adultery the abuse.. the giving and accepting of bribes.. the dispicible behavior..
The cold reality of being "had" is not an option. For some people.
But here goes..
See.. gold, silver, stones.. wood, hay.. stubble.. all happen to be good building material. All are suitable, depending on the climate I suppose.
I for one would not want to try to build on that foundation lies, arrogance, plagiarism, adultery, pornography, alcoholic rages, and other forms of uncleanness in general.. they are not exactly good building materials. In fact, they introduce CORRUPTION.
I see no contradiction.. that is, if one actually believes the account to begin with..
"the one who the temple CORRUPTS, CORRUPTION will bring to him God.."
Forgive the old vicster, or loy.. or others? I don't think it's in my power.. so why do some think we actually have a real NEED to forgive them?
Personally, I've merely come to terms with their character. What they ARE, is what they DO, or did..
maybe that's the best I can do.
false ministers falsely minister.. adulterers commit adultery, abusers abuse.. plagiarizers plagiarize.. strivers strive, liars lie.. haters hate, wolves eat sheep.. but rarely, would they eat their own kind or offspring.
but when you find ALL of these "fine qualities" wrapped up in one, or two individuals.. doesn't that say something?
It's like a proof by construction. If he fits all the axioms.. why can't one simply extend their horizons, and come to the obvious conclusion?
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Ham
Plus it wasn't just one or two individuals.. most of these fine qualities were easily observable in one limb leader I knew.. and a couple of limb coordinators later.. and ALMOST every single branch coordinator.. two region coordinators..
most were trained by vic, one I think, only loy trained him..
Ra*ph D was about the only one above reproach, of those who I have SOME personal knowledge of.
I think at least half of these negative qualities are observable in several offshoot leadership..
some of them, I see not overt evil, but spiritual if not intellectual blindness. Just plain clueless.
"unfit" for the "ministry"..
They claim to have left "gawd's ministry" with the GOLD?
maybe fool's gold..
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What The Hey
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Mike
From what I've seen in God's Word, we ALL are disgusting when we walk in our old man nature.
The degrees or intensity of how evil any one action is are a purely human phenomenon. What we humans perceive as “not all THAT bad” really means we perceive the damage to others as minimal.
For instance, getting drunk and driving a car that hurts someone else is considered by humans as very evil nowadays. Getting equally drunk and sitting on the front porch is something we might be more willing to give a pass for, even though God is robbed of the fellowship He craves and deserves equally in both instances.
Another example: Our laws go even farther in the sense-knowledge mis-recognition of degrees of evil. Attempted murder is often far less punishable a crime than actual murder. The intents in the hearts of two people may be equally evil in intending to kill, but our laws reward the incompetent would-be killer with less punishment. Dang! I’d like to put equal distances between me and BOTH of those evil minded people, regardless of their unequal ABILITY inflict harm. It’s the intent that would matter to me. If they both have equally evil intent in the heart I'd feel equally threatened, because ability or luck can change.
The sense-knowledge recognition of degrees of evil is superficial and dull. What happens in the heart is very difficult for people (and especially governments) to discern, so we usually fall back on the focusing on the external damage caused to weigh the degree of evil from our perspective. In everyday life we often give a pass to those who do not have the ABILITY to harm us, even though their hearts may be quite off base. God is equally offended because He looks at the heart.
Jeremiah 17:9-10a
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked:
who can know it?
I the LORD search the heart,
I try the reins...
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
with their tongues they have used deceit;
the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Romans 7:20-24
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that,
when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am!
who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
This is talking about US ALL. If someone thinks their heart is free from this curse, then they have not seen what Jeremiah and Paul saw.
I’ve often posted this: if any one of us had the troops, we’d have invaded Poland by now, just like Hitler.
This is figurative language of course. But I know from experience and from the Word that if we loose it, break fellowship, and happen to have a lot of power and ability, then the evil that’s always in our hearts can leak out in most embarrassing way. It’s often a good thing that we are not very, very powerful people. The more earthly power a person has, the easier it is to display what God’s Word says about the heart of all of Adam’s descendants. The more earthly power a person has the more motivated is the adversary in tapping that power for his purposes.
Thank God most of us don’t have the troops to inflict this kind of heart on too many others. Fortunately, we can walk in a mind other than our own old man nature. We can walk in the mind of Christ.
That’s right. You don’t have that power. Neither do I.
But we CAN walk in the mind of Christ and put it on to rise up to that level of forgiveness. We can get better and better at walking that way and minimize the leaking out that old man nature wants so desperately to do. Eventually we can become the man we know to be and become Jesus Christ men and women, with that old man nature dead. This is what makes it all worth it. If I didn’t believe that we can rise up to this height, I wouldn’t bother with any of this stuff.
We were often taught what Ephesians exhorts, that our real enemies in life are not the humans who inflict damage but the spirits that direct that damage. That doesn't necessarily mean we close our eyes to the humans who damage. But I've seen that most WILL close their eyes to the spirits involved.
There will never be any satisfaction for those who want to “get even.” There is great satisfaction in sorting all these things out to see what is treasure and what is worth forgetting.
Putting on the mind of Christ is available to us grads in ways and in abundance that have not been experienced in thousands of years. Our destiny is to rise up and be like him, the Lord Jesus Christ.
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rascal
Mike said......From what I've seen in God's Word, we ALL are disgusting when we walk in our old man nature.
The degrees or intensity of how evil any one action is are a purely human phenomenon. What we humans perceive as “not all THAT bad” really means we perceive the damage to others as minimal.
Judging from scriptures, I`d say God differs in that opinion...there is sin, and then there is a list of abominations.
THAT is pure Bull sheet, taught by a man of the flesh so that his heinous walk of the flesh didn`t appear to be so horrific.
Mike also said..........For instance, getting drunk and driving a car that hurts someone else is considered by humans as very evil nowadays. Getting equally drunk and sitting on the front porch is something we might be more willing to give a pass for, even though God is robbed of the fellowship He craves and deserves equally in both instances.
I (rascal) think that is completely insane....someone who drinks and hurts or kills someone??
In one instance you have pain, expenses, medical expenses loss of life, loss that never ends for family members deprived of their loved ones....verses someone having a good time in the safety of their own home....geemany what an assinine statement.
Yet I get it....if adultery, drugging and raping your flock can be equated with letting a dirty word slip, then one is half way there to excusing the evidence of wierwilles fruit that totally busts him as a man of the flesh.
Mike said....The sense-knowledge recognition of degrees of evil is superficial and dull. What happens in the heart is very difficult for people (and especially governments) to discern, so we usually fall back on the focusing on the external damage caused to weigh the degree of evil from our perspective. In everyday life we often give a pass to those who do not have the ABILITY to harm us, even though their hearts may be quite off base. God is equally offended because He looks at the heart.
I (rascal) say that is sense knowledge crap to attempt to excuse the significance of the fruit of a mans life. Galations 5 tells us EXACTLY how to know what PRECISELY is in a mans heart. That you chose to ignore it doesn`t mean that God didn`t give us warnings, sign posts and measuring sticks by which to ascertain a man`s spirituality or lack there of.
Mike, the doctrine of a man of the flesh will always lack legitimacy in spiritual matters...He just can`t grasp or comprehend those things....so he spends his life doing works. Vic was able to fool people as long as his dirty little secrets were kept lock box. Now that his fruit is out there for the whole world to examine, most people can recognize and accept him for the Man of the flesh, the wolf in sheeps clothing, the devourer of the flock that he really was.
God said we could tell one another by our fruit. Your doctrine is built around saying we can`t and explaining why fruit is not significant.
I`m telling you....all of the white wash in the world cannot cover the putrid stenche of the disease and decay inside THAT sepulcher.
Soooo what do you do WTH? Hand out bean sprouts n tofu?
I gave what I had, left over pizza from the restaurant I worked at. I gave my own lunch, and if I didn`t have anything to eat, I bought what I could afford, a dollar double cheese burger.
Shrug...I guess that wasn`t good enough.
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Mike
I agree. And this applies to you and me too, right? When you or I walk in our old man nature, the doctrine we teach is easy to manipulate by the adversary to hurt people.
But you and I can also recognize the deadness of our old man nature and choose to walk in the mind of Christ. When you or I do that we CAN get doctrine right and bless people.
Same for VPW. When he walked with God he blessed big. When he didn’t the adversary was SURE to get in there and maximize the damage.
That’s not the whole story. It’s an insignificant part at best.
He was able to bless people when they recognized that the evil in everyone’s life is going to happen but there can be good also, just like in Romans 7. If we can’t overlook the evil in a minister’s life then we will never find a minister, because all are of Adam’s fallen race except for one, Jesus Christ.
I disagree. I think it’s REPORTS of his evil that are out there for the whole world to examine. I think those reports are largely exaggerated and sometimes even downright false. There’s no way I’m going to give the same validity to complaints about 25 year old offences that I give to the massive and ongoing benefits I derive from his written works. I see that the complainers are often quite empty when it comes to their retention of the good I know did come from his teaching.
If those posters who give such eloquence and intensity to reporting Dr’s evil also were able to give me eloquent and intense teaching on God and His Son (like Dr did), THEN I might give some credence to their reports. But that is not the case; not even close.
Dr’s good and pure fruit (the books and articles) is also out there for the whole world to examine, but I CONSTANTLY see here that what Dr taught in print was not nearly as well absorbed as the corrupted twi verbal traditions (TVTs) were absorbed.
It’s all in what we choose to look at.
No it’s not built on that at all. The insignificance of bad fruit is a RESULT of my doctrine, not a foundation. The foundation is the GREAT GOOD that you have turned your eyes from, the pureness of the new birth, the forgiveness of God, the price paid by Jesus Christ, etc. etc. When these wonderful doctrinal items are focused on the damage is minimized and healed.
WOW! You got THAT one right!
It takes OUT OF THIS WORLD cleansing to fix that sepulcher, AND yours too, and mine too. I thank God He makes a way where there is no way.
If you think your old man nature stinks less than Dr’s, please read the scriptures I posted above, in the post before this one.
If you think you can discipline your walk better than Dr’s, let’s see YOUR fruit. I’m not interested in how well you can “blow the whistle.” Anyone can do that; the world’s full of finger pointing.
Try walking in that mind of Christ with all that whistle blowing energy you seem to have and see if you get better fruit.
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Ham
Must've been another national geographic thing.. I saw where people that were savaged by bears, sharks..
they didn't exactly forgive the bear, or shark.
They just finally came to terms with the beast's nature.
"no, it wasn't personal.. he was just following his brute instincts. would have ripped the lungs indiscriminately out of anyone who walked by his den.."
maybe the bear "blessed" someone in the meantime.. threw them a few "leftovers"..
I'm glad you got "blessed" mack..
just don't read the ingredients of the stew you partook of..
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Mike
You people crack me up sometimes. I wonder how difficult it would be to find a Ham post where the those same “ingredients” are praised. Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, Etc.
I know of many others here who will praise the content of those men’s writings, or symphonize with other posters who do the same, and lament that these wonderful teachers were plagiarized.
So, Ham, did Kenyon serve bad stew? Bullinger? Leonard? I’m trying to get you in trouble with posters who love those teachers.
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Mike
IMHO hype, exaggeration and distortion are relatively easy to post. What's difficult is getting things accurate.
Ham, I'd say you got the proportions entirely wrong in your analogy, so it breaks down right away, serving only the purposes of besmirchment. You minimize the benefits of Dr's teaching and maximize the damage of his flesh to reflect and harmonize with the demographics of active posters here.
If you were to want to do the same for what I suspect is a much larger read-only population here, and what I KNOW is a MUCH MUCH larger population of GreaseSpot avoiders who strongly appreciate Dr's teaching, you'd have to dump that analogy altogether.
Try maybe an analogy about a gentle giant who plants and plows people's fields leaving them a huge harvest to gather, but who inadvertently (or even negligently) may step on a few toes at times. This is what the vast majority of grads think of Dr and his teaching. They just don't want to fellowship with grads who focus on the negative.
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waysider
So, Mike-----
Why do you suppose God chose to give Dr. W. revelation to incorporate materials that would later prove to be Biblically inaccurate?
I mean, if this was God's best shot in 2,000 years of getting his "righty divided" Word presented to the masses, wouldn't it make sense for Him to avoid the stuff that didn't pass muster?
Heck, it's "The Integrity of The Word" that's always at stake.
Am I right?
You don't have to answer on this thread if you think it will be off-topic.
Perhaps the "The Great Mystery" thread would be a more appropriate place to post your response.
Probably just a "synopsis" would be adequate.
Enquiring "grads" want to know.
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Mike
This is one of the most rambling off-topic threads I've seen in awhile, so I'm not worried about it here. The originator, I think, has abandoned it and not posted at all on any thread since Christmas.
***
What do you mean by "incorporate materials that would later prove to be Biblically inaccurate"? What materials?
What authority do you cite in this matter of being Biblically inaccurate?
How do you know this is the case, especially when we have no originals, the original languages are dead, and we live in a completely different culture. Do you have revelation, or are you citing the latest authority that you think is trustworthy. Remember, you used to trust Dr, so, according to your own stand, you're a bit on the gullible side, or at least you used to have that weakness. What have you done to fix your "trust selector" since TWI?
Did you see my long response to you in the "pressed down music" thread?
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waysider
Hmmmm!
You might try these on for starters.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...amp;#entry21847
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Mike
been there
done that
So are you totally trusting Raf & Co, and that thread? Is that now your ultimate authority? Raf & Co. does your thinking for you?
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waysider
Yo Mikey!
Who said anything about total trust and ultimate authority or letting someone think for me?
(Of course, you probably realize that accepting PFAL as God-Breathed is exactly that.)
Wasn't it you who posted recently how you made it your personal effort to re-search the things you had been taught?
So go ahead, then; re-search the accuracy of "4 crucified" or "Cry of Triumph" or "tithing" as it applies to the 21st century.
When you get done with those, there are plenty more.
BTW----What's the skinny on that verse in I Corrinthians, anyway?
I'm just bouncing off the walls in anticipation.
A brief synopsis would be plenty.
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Mike
waysider,
I re-searched most of those things out long before the ministry collapsed in '86.
I can still teach the four crucified with no notes and a clean noteless KJV Bible. It's easy to find all the passages in each of the 4 Gospels by simply searching fort the ALL-CAPS rendering of the inscription hung on the cross. The only proof I need at the end is to open my interlinear and show that the word "one" is added to the King James version of John and is not in any of the Greek manuscripts.
Raf's thread and the majority of posters there have a pre-commitment (which they often deny) to find errors in PFAL. They don't work the principles we were taught when reading it, but instead work principles designed to find and even manufacture error. I've posted there and argued this ad infinitum in other threads.
I use an entirely different method of looking at the collaterals. I get different results. It's all in the method.
***
So, you're interested in I Cor 3:17 are you? Do you find that a comforting verse as is in the KJV?
Did you ever read that verse in your TWI days? If so, how did you handle it then?
Here's a preview:
I Cor. 3:17
“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”
Notice the italics in there. If we remove the word “temple” then we have:
“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which ye are.”
I mentioned earlier in this thread that this verse seems to almost contradict itself. Do you see it? In the first half of the verse we’re warned that we might be destroyed if we do the wrong thing. In the second half we’re “comforted” to hear that we’re holy. How skitzo is THAT?
If you want to put “temple” back in, fine. It may even be implied by the Greek grammar technicalities that are beyond me. But it still is an odd verse, isn’t it?
If you check the context, back even to the beginning of the chapter, you’ll find many soothing references that line up with us being either the temple or holy. But then verse 17a rears it’s ugly religious condemning head. The way our culture has conditioned us (especially RCs) to dread hell and God’s condemnation, this first half of verse 17 overpowers the entire passage, if not the entire chapter!
I think there is a reason no grads here have picked up on this, and a reason IT SEEMS hardly any of you EVEN READ this verse in the good old days.
I think the reason this passage is such a stranger to most of you is because of verse 17a and it’s negatives. I think most posters on this thread shoved that entire passage under the rug 25 and 35 years ago because of the chills of verse 17a.
I know when I first saw it I just HAD to ask my twig, branch, and limp leaders RIGHT AWAY! They didn't have answers, so I eventually brought it to Walter. He settled it in no time flat. He and others had seen it and worked it.
I see now that hardly anyone here spent any time with that chapter at all.
Another reason I’ve been delaying my exposition here on this verse is to give everyone a chance to speak up if they had worked that difficult verse and it’s context.
So, this is the last call.
Anyone who can explain the pain of verse 17a and how it does NOT contradict itself and the chapter, SPEAK UP NOW.
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waysider
Good luck to you, Mikey
I hope you catch that "golden pony" some day.
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doojable
Mike - you're stalling...
BTW - W^alter taught that to a bunch of folks. I remember specifically how he taught it and I worked it myself....
BUT - I didn't make any claims...YOU DID....
carry on...
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Mike
I hope others do too.
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Mike
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rascal
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