All this discussion over "somebody's morality" proves that what exists in the church today are political liberals who want a "moral Jesus" stripped of grace.
What do "political liberals" have to do with "a moral Jesus stripped of grace"? You're not making sense.
Grease Spot is not a church – nor is it even a representative cross-section of today's churches – it is not a religious website. What is evident from many Grease Spot discussions, besides this one, is that a lot of folks [and it doesn't matter WHAT their belief systems are] address the blatant lies and hypocrisy of vpw – a legacy that he bequeathed to TWI. Being the proficient plagiarist that he was – made him a THIEFandLIAR par excellence! Well, I guess he wasn't one for setting high ethical standards – but hey, all his "research" and audible coaching from God sure helped sales. Keep that money rolling in, folks – or God won't even spit in your direction.
It appears discussions of ethics and church matters were necessary in Paul's day:
II Corinthians 2:17 NASB
For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.
vp's ministry was based on STEALING andLYING. TWI and the offshoots uphold those nefarious principles in their silence over vp's ways. If they even had a shred of integrity – they'd denounce vp the pirate!
…And another thing – vp always pitted grace against law. But the law he had in mind was the moral law. Grace was re-defined as God cutting you a lot of slack or that you're free to do whatever you want. I was reading a theological dictionary on "grace" last night – basically defining it as divine help in time of need…So I guess if someone has a need to lie or steal – they can ask for divine help to be the best thief or liar.
What vp promoted was a self-centered grace stripped of a moral Jesus. His brand of hyper-dispensationalism, turned followers' eyes toward his skewed rendition of grace in the epistles and ignored the overt moral demands of Jesus in the gospels. But even in the epistles we find Paul reiterating Jesus' words on the moral intent of the law:
Galatians 5:13, 14 NASB
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Jonny Lingo ..... said that there were drugging rapist HERE at greasepot that needed to apologize, and be arrested...
It really is unfair to castigate me for what HE said.
Why would he have said it - if he didn't get that impression from you first? Or are you now backpeddling what you were inferring?
What *I* suggested was those Those whom participated in twi (past or present) whom harmed people in twi whether present at gs or not.... simply repent, apologize, and make amends to those whom they have wronged....
That is not what you said. What you said was: How bout you folks whom don`t want people annalyzing your sins as twi participants REPENT!
YOU did not say anthing about those who in TWI who had harmed anybody. (That was very convenient for you to leave that out - "harmed people".)
I didn`t say that there was anyone here at GS whom fit THAT bill.... Jonny Lingo did..nor in THAT post did I refer to drugging rapists...please take that up with him....
Personally, I didn`t think it was such a big deal since these are our biblical instructions, AND if one is a christian WITH a respect for the scriptures...then I would assume that one would be willing to comply.
Then those whom were wronged would have the opportunity to forgive and the healing on both sides would begin. A win win situation in MY mind.
Twi arrogance though tells us that we don`t need to follow these instructions given....Heck we`ll just shortcut the whole process by demanding forgiveness, and insisting the perpetually whining victims shut up.
I don't think it has anything to do with TWI's arrogance. Maybe ignorance is a better word.
The truth is: People are still going to sin against you regardless of what church they are affiliated with. Heck - you may even have members of your own family who sin (and probably will sin in the future) against you. The real problem for you is: You've got to live with those people - the members of your own family - but I haven't seen anyone here come forward who says they are still living with someone in TWI who has "horribly sinned" against them. (If they're here on GSC then they probably already left TWI. At least, that is the impression I get.) So what are you going to do when those people don't follow scriptural instruction? Perpetually whine and complain about it as the victim of someone's sin?
Well - I guess you can, but I don't see how doing that is ever going to get a confession of repentance or an apology out of anyone, regardless if they are affiliated with TWI or not. For example: People have been whining and belly aching over TWI here for years. How's all that "whining and belly-aching" worked out for them or for anybody else so far? (Somebody once said the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over [whining and belly-aching in this case] and expecting a different result.)
What do "political liberals" have to do with "a moral Jesus stripped of grace"? You're not making sense.
That's certainly a good question for the political liberal's to answer - since their god is a god of "self-made morality". BTW, who defines "morality" anyway - YOU? (Just by the nature of your response I realize that you are trying - but very trying, that is.) The political liberal's position is since we are the highest form of life, then we have the right to choose and determine our own morality.
Grease Spot is not a church – nor is it even a representative cross-section of today's churches – it is not a religious website.
Of course GSC is a church. A church is merely an assemblage of people who are called out for a specific pupose. An assemblage doesn't have to be "religious" in order to be defined as "a church". The Greek word for church is: "ekklessia" meaning "the called-out." People can be called out for various reasons - and GSC certainly has it's reason's for being a called-out assemblage.
Don't try coming off like you're someone who is ignorant of what a "church" really is, Professor T-bone. Trying to play the part of someone who is biblically ignorant and a bible scholar at the same time doesn't work - certainly not with me. Everything you said after this just comes off sounding like the rantings of a political liberal, not that of a bible scholar. Your not fooling me by judging someone else with some self-appointed, self-made morality. Others may be fooled by it, but I'm not.
Grease Spot is not a church – nor is it even a representative cross-section of today's churches – it is not a religious website.
Then WTH said:
Of course GSC is a church. A church is merely an assemblage of people who are called out for a specific pupose. An assemblage doesn't have to be "religious" in order to be defined as "a church". The Greek word for church is: "ekklessia" meaning "the called-out." People can be called out for various reasons - and GSC certainly has it's reason's for being a called-out assemblage.
From WTH (sorry, if I "reply," embedded quotes don't come up):
Why would he have said it - if he didn't get that impression from you first? Or are you now backpeddling what you were inferring?
You're confusing infer with imply. An inference is an assumption the reader (or listener) makes about what is written (or said). An implication is something unstated that the writer (or speaker) attempts to convey, either by logical conclusion, or tone.
Rascal implied nothing. Perhaps you inferred something from what she wrote, or Jonny did, or you inferred something from what Jonny wrote. She can't be accused of back-pedaling from what you assumed she meant.
If we measure the amount of hot air generated on this thread, I think we could definitely make a case for GS being a church.
Actually I think you're making a valid point What the Hey, but I think the values being placed on Jesus as a "moral" authority are incorrect. Jesus was the a moralizer in what He said and taught. He consistently spoke to and dealt with the sources of authority His audiences accepted as being valid, be it the written word, traditional interpretations, oral histories, you name it. He stated His case in the context of His audience's perspective. In that way He stated what was "true", because it was true, not because it was written down somewhere. Written, spoken, accepted in whatever form, His teaching addressed it from both the inside and outside.
The classic example of this is His teaching on the heart being where a person sins or does right. When a man has lust in his heart he sins, not only when he acts on what's in his heart.
That's a moral judgement at it's most basic core level. To state that what's in the thoughts and intents of a person establishes the baseline for right or wrong, true worship or hypocrosy - that's the real down and dirty - the standard of truth there is one of honesty as much as it is adherence to a set standard. A person can act rightly and still have sin in their heart, being dishonest. He made it pretty simple and straightforward - the conviction goes on in the person's own thoughts, whether they admit it or not.
FIRST of all....I certainly am NOT responsible for Jonny Lingos *impressions* nor what he adds to my posts, WTH. It wouldn`t be the first tine that he has jumped on people on what he THOUGHT was meant, and been dead wrong.
It is absolutely not fair to castigate me for his addaptation of what he thinks that I said, along with his additions....
Secondly, I have NO idea what point you are trying to make about what I *conveniently left out* I actually said EXACTLY what I wished to say in my post...anything that YOU add, or claim that I left out...changes the entire post, and the thoughts are no longer mine.
Please, just read my thoughts as they stand without adding or subtracting. There is plenty that we can discuss, plenty you can hassle me about without you two making things up.
Frankly, I thought my idea was brilliant. I mean shoot, what WOULD we have to talk about if the twi participants whom caused harm repented and apologized and sought to make amends??
The grace of God? The healing? The forgiving??
I personally think that twi teaching caused many of us to be way too arrogant to experience the Godly sorrow to recognize the evil we committed, to repent, to humbly ask forgivnes, to do everything within our power to make amends to those whom we wronged...Much easier isn`t it, to get indignant, blame the victim, demand unconditional forgivness and require silence so others don`t know what scum buckets we were.
And besides all of that, Jesus was tortured and persecuted way beyond anything any of us have ever gone through, and he in fact was innocent of any wrong doing. He was perfect, we are not. His humiliation far exceeds any humiliation any of us have ever gone through. And so, we should forgive as He did. We can go round and round all we want, but Jesus forgave those who absolutely hurt him way more than anybody here was hurt. He despised the shame. He did NOT like it at all. Yet, he forgave. We are to "look unto him, the author and finisher of our faith". For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin....
I don't think it has anything to do with TWI's arrogance. Maybe ignorance is a better word.
The truth is: People are still going to sin against you regardless of what church they are affiliated with. Heck - you may even have members of your own family who sin (and probably will sin in the future) against you. The real problem for you is: You've got to live with those people - the members of your own family - but I haven't seen anyone here come forward who says they are still living with someone in TWI who has "horribly sinned" against them. (If they're here on GSC then they probably already left TWI. At least, that is the impression I get.) So what are you going to do when those people don't follow scriptural instruction? Perpetually whine and complain about it as the victim of someone's sin?
Guess I don`t follow you here...sorry....
Well - I guess you can, but I don't see how doing that is ever going to get a confession of repentance or an apology out of anyone, regardless if they are affiliated with TWI or not. For example: People have been whining and belly aching over TWI here for years. How's all that "whining and belly-aching" worked out for them or for anybody else so far? (Somebody once said the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over [whining and belly-aching in this case] and expecting a different result.)
Well what one person sees as whining and belly aching, is seen by another as rightious indignation. We learn by comparing notes, that....Hey, I wasn`t the only one, my believing wasn`t at fault, my walk wasn`t at fault, I didn`t leave trap doors open....These guys were just plain NUTS!! Their standards rediculous, Their requirements impossible. The actions that they forced us to do were immoral and un Godly.
When we find out that wierwille and his buddies were evil immoral men of the flesh with no morals or character, or even basice decency.......it finally dawns on us...that it sure wasn`t God that let us down, but evil men and their false doctrines.
It makes it easier to forgive ourselves and easier to not be mad at God.
Why would you want to stand in the way of someones healing and deliverance?
And besides all of that, Jesus was tortured and persecuted way beyond anything any of us have ever gone through, and he in fact was innocent of any wrong doing. He was perfect, we are not. His humiliation far exceeds any humiliation any of us have ever gone through. And so, we should forgive as He did. We can go round and round all we want, but Jesus forgave those who absolutely hurt him way more than anybody here was hurt. He despised the shame. He did NOT like it at all. Yet, he forgave. We are to "look unto him, the author and finisher of our faith". For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin....
Hebrews 12 says nothing about forgiveness.
Hebrews 12 (KJV)
"1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin."
Hebrews 12(NASB)
"1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
4You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;"
And you have no way of knowing which of us have shed blood, or went in hazard of our lives, striving against sin.
(Those of us who HAVE, however, haven't strived against it to the point Jesus did.)
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1 Corinthians 5(KJV)
" 1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."
=======
1 Corinthians 5 (NASB)
" 1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES."
===============
II Timothy 4:14 (NASB)
"14Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds."
II Timothy 4:14 (KJV)
"14Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:"
I don't know about "going around and around", but Paul sure made a note of those that did harm/evil.
If one considers the Bible Holy Scripture, then one should accept God Almighty wanted that noted.
Frankly, I thought my idea was brilliant. I mean shoot, what WOULD we have to talk about if the twi participants whom caused harm repented and apologized and sought to make amends??
I thought it was flawed ideology because it asserts that the victims' healing is contingent upon the repentence and apology of the perpetrator which may never be forthcoming. In the case of Dr. Wierwille, it will never come; in the case of Craig, Rosalie and other cast of characters, it may come, but don't count on it. So then the victim is in a state of perpetual hurt because of the inaction of the perpetrator. So basically I think this is a formula for wound addiction and perpetual victim entitlement. In contrast, Jesus is the healer of broken hearts, in him is all the keys to one's healing.
I SUPPOSE that residual hurt is why it is such a heinous thing to betray your congregation. I suppose that also is why the scriptures talk about how difficult it is to win back an offended brother.
In a physical scenario, it is the equivalent of inviting a struggling brother over, offering a shoulder in support and when he gets close enough....pulling out a knife and plunging it deep in his back when he wasn`t looking.
The back stabbing betrayer, then starts screaming at the poor fellow to stop bleeding all over his Harly, or his 5000 dollar armani suits and 300 dollar bruno mali shoes, as he proceeds to steal every thing of value that the stabbed owns, kicks him a time or two and leads him wounded and bleeding, unconscious in the dirt.
By some miracle, with help, the betrayed survives the stabbing, survives the beating and blood loss, he valiantly struggles back to health. It takes a long time for the wounds to heal .The scars of the horrific assault will always be ugly and visible, always giving mute testimony to the unprovoked attack by someone who they once trusted.
They then see the same criminal attempting to lure the unsuspecting to him. They try to warn potential victims that the person whom is beckoning to in such a friendly manner ...the one promising help and deliverance, is REALLY trying to lure them in to stab and rob them also.
Call it whining, perpetual, victim hood, if you wish. Call the people psychotic liars whom dare to speak of the danger, if you need to. Call folks unforgiving, backstabbing gossipers for not remaining silent.
The thing is, those whom witnessed the crime, those whom have seen the damage wrought, KNOW how important it is to keep shouting from the roof tops about the dangers of these unrepentant wolves.
We are to look unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. That place in Hebrews may not specifically say anything about forgiveness, but we do know that Jesus Christ forgave. And so, if we are to look unto him as an example, the forgiveness is part of it.
With this subject being discussed, I got to thinking last night about the Amish in Pennsylvania whose daughters were brutally slain by a mad man. Amazingly, those people found it in their hearts to forgive the man who did that heinous deed, whatever his motives may have been. They attended the funeral of the man who slaughtered their daughters. They offered support to the family of the man who executed the little girls in the school house. And I remember this as well:
The main stream media commented numerous times about the Amish people who forgave this awful man for what he did. The mainstream media on the act of forgiveness itself, seemed to be amazed at how these Amish people actually lived their creed as Christians. I was personally humbled by these wonderful people and their ability to forgive, and I think our Nation was humbled and blown away by such an example of compassion and forgiveness. Perhaps we could learn from their amazing example. I hope that God does not send them to Hell for forgiving that man. Do you all remember that incident? Here, from CBS News:
(CBS/AP) In just about any other community, a deadly school shooting would have brought demands from civic leaders for tighter gun laws and better security, and the victims' loved ones would have lashed out at the gunman's family or threatened to sue.
But that's not the Amish way.
As they struggle with the slayings of five of their children in a one-room schoolhouse, the Amish in this Lancaster County village are turning the other cheek, urging forgiveness of the killer and quietly accepting what comes their way as God's will.
"They know their children are going to heaven. They know their children are innocent ... and they know that they will join them in death," said Gertrude Huntington, a Michigan researcher and expert on children in Amish society.
"The hurt is very great," Huntington said. "But they don't balance the hurt with hate."
In the aftermath of Monday's violence, the Amish are looking inward, relying on themselves and their faith, just as they have for centuries. They hold themselves apart from the modern world, and have as little to do with civil authorities as possible.
Amish mourners have been going from home to home for two days to attend viewings for the five victims, all little girls laid out in white dresses made by their families. Such viewings occur almost immediately after the bodies arrive at the parents' homes.
Typically, they are so crowded, "if you start crying, you've got to figure out whose shoulder to cry on," said Rita Rhoads, a Mennonite midwife who delivered two of the five girls slain in the attack.
At some Amish viewings, upwards of 1,000 to 1,500 people might visit a family's home to pay respects, according to Jack Meyer, 60, a buggy operator in Bird in Hand. Such visits are important, given the lack of e-mail and phone communication, Meyer said.
The Amish have also been reaching out to the family of the gunman, Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, who committed suicide during the attack.
"The Amish neighbor came that very night, around 9 o'clock in the evening, and offered forgiveness to the family," Dwight Lefever, a Roberts family spokesman, told CBS News national correspondent Byron Pitts.
"I hope they stay around here and they'll have a lot of friends and a lot of support," Daniel Esh, a 57-year-old Amish artist and woodworker whose three grandnephews were inside the school during the attack, said of the Roberts.
Huntington, the authority on the Amish, predicted they will be very supportive of the killer and his wife, "because judgment is in God's hands: `Judge not, that ye be not judged.'"
Roberts stormed the school and shot 10 girls before turning the gun on himself. Investigators said Roberts, who brought lubricating jelly and plastic restraints with him, may have been planning to sexually assault the Amish girls.
Roberts revealed to his family in notes he left behind and in a phone call from inside the West Nickel Mines Amish School that he was tormented by memories of molesting two young relatives 20 years ago.
A deputy county coroner on Wednesday described a gruesome scene at the school, with blood on every desk, every window broken and the body of a girl slumped beneath the chalkboard, below a sign that read "Visitors Brighten People's Days." Roberts' body was face-down next to the teacher's desk.
"It was horrible. I don't know how else to explain it," said Amanda Shelley, a deputy coroner in Lancaster County.
The West Nickel Mines School is boarded up now. Plywood can't disguise what happened. And school kids can't forget.
A 13-year old Amish boy who survived Monday's rampage told his parents "I could never ever walk inside that school again," reported Pitts, who added that church elders decided they will almost certainly tear it down.
Funerals for four of the victims — Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7; Marian Fisher, 13; Mary Liz Miller, 8; and her sister Lena Miller, 7 — are scheduled for Thursday at three homes. The funeral for the fifth girl, Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12, is Friday.
About 300 to 500 people are expected at each funeral, said Philip W. Furman, an undertaker. The church-led services typically last about two hours before mourners travel in horse-drawn buggies to a cemetery for a short graveside service.
In keeping with custom, the Amish use simple wooden caskets — narrow at the head and feet and wider in the middle. An Amish girl is typically laid to rest in a white dress, a cape, and a white prayer-covering on her head, Furman said.
Five other girls remained hospitalized — three in critical condition and two in serious condition. They ranged in age from 6 to 13.
Enos Miller, the grandfather of the two Miller sisters, was with both of the girls when they died. He was out walking near the schoolhouse before dawn Wednesday — he said he couldn't sleep — when he was asked by a reporter for WGAL-TV whether he had forgiven the gunman.
"In my heart, yes," he said, explaining it was "through God's help."
…That's certainly a good question for the political liberal's to answer - since their god is a god of "self-made morality". BTW, who defines "morality" anyway - YOU? (Just by the nature of your response I realize that you are trying - but very trying, that is.) The political liberal's position is since we are the highest form of life, then we have the right to choose and determine our own morality…
Actually, I'm of the opinion that we are all sinners [don't know if that says much for anyone being the highest form of life ] – and for those who are Christian, I think it's pretty clear in the Bible that the standard for morality has already been determined by God:
I Corinthians 5:9-13 NASB
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
It goes back to what I was saying earlier in post # 277 – about the moral intent of the law, revealed in the words of Jesus and Paul - you shall love your neighbor as yourself…Jesus also summed up the moral intent of Scripture a little differently in:
Matthew 7:12 NASB
In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Known as the Golden Rule, it seems to have been around for a real long time! I think a few ancient Greek philosophers like Pythagoras and Epictetus are attributed with some form of it – besides showing up in other ancient civilizations. From my Christian viewpoint – I tend to think for this simple all encompassing moral code to make various appearances like that – it may be by design of our Creator – building into our conscience, a moral template so to speak. Which may be inferred from Romans 2:
Romans 2:14, 15 NASB
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
Grace doesn't promote sin, of course. Salvation and repentance won't take a person to a state in this life where they will not sin, in thought or action - Paul spoke of "Who will rescue me from the body of death?"
Forgiveness in Christ is one thing - Paul prays to be rescued, delivered from the "bodyof death", the power of his sinful nature. He knew to live one way, "in Christ", but recognized that he often didn't. Know one thing, do another.
There's a response required in forgiveness, for it to mean anything. If it's a given that I'm always going to be loaded down by a sinful nature, but I've been forgiven, the logical next question is - "so does it matter anymore what I do?" Paul attempts to clarify that - of course it does - forgivenss isn't a license to continue doing wrong. "But I will anyway, we all will, it's an endless cycle."
License - permission. We're not talking Learner's Permit here. Does being saved mean that I now am bullet proof? Obviously we all take some hits in life - why? The answer's simple. Wecan choose to bring forth good fruit or bad fruit, depending on what we pursue.
It brings up a serious question - if a person "accepts Christ" with no real desire to repent, to turn away from their former allegiances and realign with God through Christ - what's really happened? Nothing more than wishful thinking and an investment in an easy-out. Believing Christ rose from the dead could be nothing more thana mental exercise for someone - sure, I do! God raised Him. Now I'm saved! whew! that was easy!!! There's clearly more to a "Christian" life than that.
This smacks of "works" - but it's not. Romans 10:9 and 10 can not be taken as a formula, stand alone - do this and nothing else matters. Time and again "repentance" is spoken of in the New Testament, with salvation, forgiveness and grace. Turn away from what you were and turn to God through Christ and you will be saved. How? Understand that as the son of God He died as a fulfillment and sacrifice for sin, and was raised up from death in newness of life. Christ gave up all, as a man truly turned away from the former life and was raised up to a new one. Literally, metaphorically, the message is the same. We need to make the same turn, the same repentance, recognition and transition in our hearts.
This isn't to say that no forgiveness can be forthcoming without the other things - forgiveness comes to each person. What we choose to do with it determines the outcome.
I wonder what it was like, when they took Jesus' hands and bound them? I wonder what it was like when they took a heavy hammer and began to pound steel spikes through his hands. Think of those metacarpal bones being smashed to smithereens as those huge nails went through his hands and into the wood of the cross. Think about how those huge steel spikes were driven through the top of the instep of his feet and into the wood of The Cross. Have you ever rolled your ankle and experienced a sprained ankle that swelled up like a soft ball? Yes, most of you have, including me, and we KNOW how much it hurts. And yet Jesus was NAILED like a common criminal to a tree! Steel through flesh and bone! AFTER he was whipped, beaten, ridiculed, spit upon, and accused of being a LIAR, which he was not. Yeah, they crucified him all right. Killed him. Murdered him. And yet he asked his Heavenly Father to forgive them before he died. NOw that is a HERO I can look up to and emulate. How about you?
NONE of you have ever experienced the humiliation that our LORD went through, yet some of you choose to judge and ridicule your enemies. Well, I'd rather hang with the Big Guy, and try and follow His footsteps, and NOT yours...
P.S.
I notice that there is no comment on the "Amish forgiveness situation". No surprise, I guess....
Yet he truly was innocent, and we are far from it. And I doubt any of us ever went through what he did for you and I. All of the sins of the world laid on his back, plus the agony of the torture? The total aloneness. No friends, Peter couldn't even stay awake with him while he prayed in The Garden for on hour? No, I don't think we anybody else has been in his league...
Grease Spot is not a church – nor is it even a representative cross-section of today's churches – it is not a religious website.
Then WTH said:
Of course GSC is a church. A church is merely an assemblage of people who are called out for a specific pupose. An assemblage doesn't have to be "religious" in order to be defined as "a church". The Greek word for church is: "ekklessia" meaning "the called-out." People can be called out for various reasons - and GSC certainly has it's reason's for being a called-out assemblage.
I think we're all pretty much aware of how the term"church" was defined in The Way.
I might be mistaken, but I believe T-Bone was using the term "church" in a more conventional, universally recognized sense.
If he wasn't, I'm sure he will say so.
I am well aware T-Bone was using a specific definition of the term church, (that being, as you put it, the conventional, universal recongized one) but "the church" or "a church" is not limited to that specific narrow definition. (Please re-read the definition of church above - highlighted in red.) People can be, and are called-out for various reasons. Praise and worship is just one of many reasons why people could be called-out, but a church is not limited to that specific definition.
In Acts 19:24-32, Demetrius gathered together a group of silversmiths and emotionally encited them against the apostle Paul. Now Demetrius didn't gather the silversmiths together for a "Praise and Worship" service, but he had led those silversmiths into believing their craft was in danger and would come to nothing - as well as the temple of the "great goddess Diana" should be despised and her magnifance be destroyed (v.26,27). What was the result of that gathering? Praise and Worship? No, it was confusion. (v.32 says: "Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly [ekklesia, the church] was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.) The assembly (the ekklesia) wasn't called there by Demetrius for a modern-day "Praise and Worship" service.
God's Word, the bible, is not limited to some "conventional, universal, easily recognized modern-day Noah Webster's definition" of the meaning of the word - church, regardless of what limitations modern-day man decides to place upon the Word of God. (And modern-day man does it to a whole lot more words in the Word of God than just the word - "church".)
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T-Bone
What do "political liberals" have to do with "a moral Jesus stripped of grace"? You're not making sense.
Grease Spot is not a church – nor is it even a representative cross-section of today's churches – it is not a religious website. What is evident from many Grease Spot discussions, besides this one, is that a lot of folks [and it doesn't matter WHAT their belief systems are] address the blatant lies and hypocrisy of vpw – a legacy that he bequeathed to TWI. Being the proficient plagiarist that he was – made him a THIEF and LIAR par excellence! Well, I guess he wasn't one for setting high ethical standards – but hey, all his "research" and audible coaching from God sure helped sales. Keep that money rolling in, folks – or God won't even spit in your direction.
It appears discussions of ethics and church matters were necessary in Paul's day:
II Corinthians 2:17 NASB
For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.
vp's ministry was based on STEALING and LYING. TWI and the offshoots uphold those nefarious principles in their silence over vp's ways. If they even had a shred of integrity – they'd denounce vp the pirate!
…And another thing – vp always pitted grace against law. But the law he had in mind was the moral law. Grace was re-defined as God cutting you a lot of slack or that you're free to do whatever you want. I was reading a theological dictionary on "grace" last night – basically defining it as divine help in time of need…So I guess if someone has a need to lie or steal – they can ask for divine help to be the best thief or liar.
What vp promoted was a self-centered grace stripped of a moral Jesus. His brand of hyper-dispensationalism, turned followers' eyes toward his skewed rendition of grace in the epistles and ignored the overt moral demands of Jesus in the gospels. But even in the epistles we find Paul reiterating Jesus' words on the moral intent of the law:
Galatians 5:13, 14 NASB
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
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What The Hey
I don't think it has anything to do with TWI's arrogance. Maybe ignorance is a better word.
The truth is: People are still going to sin against you regardless of what church they are affiliated with. Heck - you may even have members of your own family who sin (and probably will sin in the future) against you. The real problem for you is: You've got to live with those people - the members of your own family - but I haven't seen anyone here come forward who says they are still living with someone in TWI who has "horribly sinned" against them. (If they're here on GSC then they probably already left TWI. At least, that is the impression I get.) So what are you going to do when those people don't follow scriptural instruction? Perpetually whine and complain about it as the victim of someone's sin?
Well - I guess you can, but I don't see how doing that is ever going to get a confession of repentance or an apology out of anyone, regardless if they are affiliated with TWI or not. For example: People have been whining and belly aching over TWI here for years. How's all that "whining and belly-aching" worked out for them or for anybody else so far? (Somebody once said the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over [whining and belly-aching in this case] and expecting a different result.)
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What The Hey
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T-Bone
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waysider
T-Bone said:
Grease Spot is not a church – nor is it even a representative cross-section of today's churches – it is not a religious website.
Then WTH said:
Of course GSC is a church. A church is merely an assemblage of people who are called out for a specific pupose. An assemblage doesn't have to be "religious" in order to be defined as "a church". The Greek word for church is: "ekklessia" meaning "the called-out." People can be called out for various reasons - and GSC certainly has it's reason's for being a called-out assemblage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think we're all pretty much aware of how the term"church" was defined in The Way.
I might be mistaken, but I believe T-Bone was using the term "church" in a more conventional, universally recognized sense.
If he wasn't, I'm sure he will say so.
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GeorgeStGeorge
From WTH (sorry, if I "reply," embedded quotes don't come up):
Why would he have said it - if he didn't get that impression from you first? Or are you now backpeddling what you were inferring?
You're confusing infer with imply. An inference is an assumption the reader (or listener) makes about what is written (or said). An implication is something unstated that the writer (or speaker) attempts to convey, either by logical conclusion, or tone.
Rascal implied nothing. Perhaps you inferred something from what she wrote, or Jonny did, or you inferred something from what Jonny wrote. She can't be accused of back-pedaling from what you assumed she meant.
George
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T-Bone
You are correct, sir.
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socks
If we measure the amount of hot air generated on this thread, I think we could definitely make a case for GS being a church.
Actually I think you're making a valid point What the Hey, but I think the values being placed on Jesus as a "moral" authority are incorrect. Jesus was the a moralizer in what He said and taught. He consistently spoke to and dealt with the sources of authority His audiences accepted as being valid, be it the written word, traditional interpretations, oral histories, you name it. He stated His case in the context of His audience's perspective. In that way He stated what was "true", because it was true, not because it was written down somewhere. Written, spoken, accepted in whatever form, His teaching addressed it from both the inside and outside.
The classic example of this is His teaching on the heart being where a person sins or does right. When a man has lust in his heart he sins, not only when he acts on what's in his heart.
That's a moral judgement at it's most basic core level. To state that what's in the thoughts and intents of a person establishes the baseline for right or wrong, true worship or hypocrosy - that's the real down and dirty - the standard of truth there is one of honesty as much as it is adherence to a set standard. A person can act rightly and still have sin in their heart, being dishonest. He made it pretty simple and straightforward - the conviction goes on in the person's own thoughts, whether they admit it or not.
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rascal
FIRST of all....I certainly am NOT responsible for Jonny Lingos *impressions* nor what he adds to my posts, WTH. It wouldn`t be the first tine that he has jumped on people on what he THOUGHT was meant, and been dead wrong.
It is absolutely not fair to castigate me for his addaptation of what he thinks that I said, along with his additions....
Secondly, I have NO idea what point you are trying to make about what I *conveniently left out* I actually said EXACTLY what I wished to say in my post...anything that YOU add, or claim that I left out...changes the entire post, and the thoughts are no longer mine.
Please, just read my thoughts as they stand without adding or subtracting. There is plenty that we can discuss, plenty you can hassle me about without you two making things up.
Frankly, I thought my idea was brilliant. I mean shoot, what WOULD we have to talk about if the twi participants whom caused harm repented and apologized and sought to make amends??
The grace of God? The healing? The forgiving??
I personally think that twi teaching caused many of us to be way too arrogant to experience the Godly sorrow to recognize the evil we committed, to repent, to humbly ask forgivnes, to do everything within our power to make amends to those whom we wronged...Much easier isn`t it, to get indignant, blame the victim, demand unconditional forgivness and require silence so others don`t know what scum buckets we were.
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J0nny Ling0
And besides all of that, Jesus was tortured and persecuted way beyond anything any of us have ever gone through, and he in fact was innocent of any wrong doing. He was perfect, we are not. His humiliation far exceeds any humiliation any of us have ever gone through. And so, we should forgive as He did. We can go round and round all we want, but Jesus forgave those who absolutely hurt him way more than anybody here was hurt. He despised the shame. He did NOT like it at all. Yet, he forgave. We are to "look unto him, the author and finisher of our faith". For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin....
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rascal
Thank you for the clarification George St George, you said it so much better and more succinctly than I did.
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rascal
Well what one person sees as whining and belly aching, is seen by another as rightious indignation. We learn by comparing notes, that....Hey, I wasn`t the only one, my believing wasn`t at fault, my walk wasn`t at fault, I didn`t leave trap doors open....These guys were just plain NUTS!! Their standards rediculous, Their requirements impossible. The actions that they forced us to do were immoral and un Godly.
When we find out that wierwille and his buddies were evil immoral men of the flesh with no morals or character, or even basice decency.......it finally dawns on us...that it sure wasn`t God that let us down, but evil men and their false doctrines.
It makes it easier to forgive ourselves and easier to not be mad at God.
Why would you want to stand in the way of someones healing and deliverance?
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WordWolf
Hebrews 12 says nothing about forgiveness.
Hebrews 12 (KJV)
"1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin."
Hebrews 12(NASB)
"1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
4You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;"
And you have no way of knowing which of us have shed blood, or went in hazard of our lives, striving against sin.
(Those of us who HAVE, however, haven't strived against it to the point Jesus did.)
==============
1 Corinthians 5(KJV)
" 1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."
=======
1 Corinthians 5 (NASB)
" 1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES."
===============
II Timothy 4:14 (NASB)
"14Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds."
II Timothy 4:14 (KJV)
"14Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:"
I don't know about "going around and around", but Paul sure made a note of those that did harm/evil.
If one considers the Bible Holy Scripture, then one should accept God Almighty wanted that noted.
And immortalized as an example.
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oldiesman
I thought it was flawed ideology because it asserts that the victims' healing is contingent upon the repentence and apology of the perpetrator which may never be forthcoming. In the case of Dr. Wierwille, it will never come; in the case of Craig, Rosalie and other cast of characters, it may come, but don't count on it. So then the victim is in a state of perpetual hurt because of the inaction of the perpetrator. So basically I think this is a formula for wound addiction and perpetual victim entitlement. In contrast, Jesus is the healer of broken hearts, in him is all the keys to one's healing.
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rascal
I SUPPOSE that residual hurt is why it is such a heinous thing to betray your congregation. I suppose that also is why the scriptures talk about how difficult it is to win back an offended brother.
In a physical scenario, it is the equivalent of inviting a struggling brother over, offering a shoulder in support and when he gets close enough....pulling out a knife and plunging it deep in his back when he wasn`t looking.
The back stabbing betrayer, then starts screaming at the poor fellow to stop bleeding all over his Harly, or his 5000 dollar armani suits and 300 dollar bruno mali shoes, as he proceeds to steal every thing of value that the stabbed owns, kicks him a time or two and leads him wounded and bleeding, unconscious in the dirt.
By some miracle, with help, the betrayed survives the stabbing, survives the beating and blood loss, he valiantly struggles back to health. It takes a long time for the wounds to heal .The scars of the horrific assault will always be ugly and visible, always giving mute testimony to the unprovoked attack by someone who they once trusted.
They then see the same criminal attempting to lure the unsuspecting to him. They try to warn potential victims that the person whom is beckoning to in such a friendly manner ...the one promising help and deliverance, is REALLY trying to lure them in to stab and rob them also.
Call it whining, perpetual, victim hood, if you wish. Call the people psychotic liars whom dare to speak of the danger, if you need to. Call folks unforgiving, backstabbing gossipers for not remaining silent.
The thing is, those whom witnessed the crime, those whom have seen the damage wrought, KNOW how important it is to keep shouting from the roof tops about the dangers of these unrepentant wolves.
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J0nny Ling0
We are to look unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. That place in Hebrews may not specifically say anything about forgiveness, but we do know that Jesus Christ forgave. And so, if we are to look unto him as an example, the forgiveness is part of it.
With this subject being discussed, I got to thinking last night about the Amish in Pennsylvania whose daughters were brutally slain by a mad man. Amazingly, those people found it in their hearts to forgive the man who did that heinous deed, whatever his motives may have been. They attended the funeral of the man who slaughtered their daughters. They offered support to the family of the man who executed the little girls in the school house. And I remember this as well:
The main stream media commented numerous times about the Amish people who forgave this awful man for what he did. The mainstream media on the act of forgiveness itself, seemed to be amazed at how these Amish people actually lived their creed as Christians. I was personally humbled by these wonderful people and their ability to forgive, and I think our Nation was humbled and blown away by such an example of compassion and forgiveness. Perhaps we could learn from their amazing example. I hope that God does not send them to Hell for forgiving that man. Do you all remember that incident? Here, from CBS News:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/04/...in2059816.shtml
(CBS/AP) In just about any other community, a deadly school shooting would have brought demands from civic leaders for tighter gun laws and better security, and the victims' loved ones would have lashed out at the gunman's family or threatened to sue.
But that's not the Amish way.
As they struggle with the slayings of five of their children in a one-room schoolhouse, the Amish in this Lancaster County village are turning the other cheek, urging forgiveness of the killer and quietly accepting what comes their way as God's will.
"They know their children are going to heaven. They know their children are innocent ... and they know that they will join them in death," said Gertrude Huntington, a Michigan researcher and expert on children in Amish society.
"The hurt is very great," Huntington said. "But they don't balance the hurt with hate."
In the aftermath of Monday's violence, the Amish are looking inward, relying on themselves and their faith, just as they have for centuries. They hold themselves apart from the modern world, and have as little to do with civil authorities as possible.
Amish mourners have been going from home to home for two days to attend viewings for the five victims, all little girls laid out in white dresses made by their families. Such viewings occur almost immediately after the bodies arrive at the parents' homes.
Typically, they are so crowded, "if you start crying, you've got to figure out whose shoulder to cry on," said Rita Rhoads, a Mennonite midwife who delivered two of the five girls slain in the attack.
At some Amish viewings, upwards of 1,000 to 1,500 people might visit a family's home to pay respects, according to Jack Meyer, 60, a buggy operator in Bird in Hand. Such visits are important, given the lack of e-mail and phone communication, Meyer said.
The Amish have also been reaching out to the family of the gunman, Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, who committed suicide during the attack.
"The Amish neighbor came that very night, around 9 o'clock in the evening, and offered forgiveness to the family," Dwight Lefever, a Roberts family spokesman, told CBS News national correspondent Byron Pitts.
"I hope they stay around here and they'll have a lot of friends and a lot of support," Daniel Esh, a 57-year-old Amish artist and woodworker whose three grandnephews were inside the school during the attack, said of the Roberts.
Huntington, the authority on the Amish, predicted they will be very supportive of the killer and his wife, "because judgment is in God's hands: `Judge not, that ye be not judged.'"
Roberts stormed the school and shot 10 girls before turning the gun on himself. Investigators said Roberts, who brought lubricating jelly and plastic restraints with him, may have been planning to sexually assault the Amish girls.
Roberts revealed to his family in notes he left behind and in a phone call from inside the West Nickel Mines Amish School that he was tormented by memories of molesting two young relatives 20 years ago.
A deputy county coroner on Wednesday described a gruesome scene at the school, with blood on every desk, every window broken and the body of a girl slumped beneath the chalkboard, below a sign that read "Visitors Brighten People's Days." Roberts' body was face-down next to the teacher's desk.
"It was horrible. I don't know how else to explain it," said Amanda Shelley, a deputy coroner in Lancaster County.
The West Nickel Mines School is boarded up now. Plywood can't disguise what happened. And school kids can't forget.
A 13-year old Amish boy who survived Monday's rampage told his parents "I could never ever walk inside that school again," reported Pitts, who added that church elders decided they will almost certainly tear it down.
Funerals for four of the victims — Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7; Marian Fisher, 13; Mary Liz Miller, 8; and her sister Lena Miller, 7 — are scheduled for Thursday at three homes. The funeral for the fifth girl, Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12, is Friday.
About 300 to 500 people are expected at each funeral, said Philip W. Furman, an undertaker. The church-led services typically last about two hours before mourners travel in horse-drawn buggies to a cemetery for a short graveside service.
In keeping with custom, the Amish use simple wooden caskets — narrow at the head and feet and wider in the middle. An Amish girl is typically laid to rest in a white dress, a cape, and a white prayer-covering on her head, Furman said.
Five other girls remained hospitalized — three in critical condition and two in serious condition. They ranged in age from 6 to 13.
Enos Miller, the grandfather of the two Miller sisters, was with both of the girls when they died. He was out walking near the schoolhouse before dawn Wednesday — he said he couldn't sleep — when he was asked by a reporter for WGAL-TV whether he had forgiven the gunman.
"In my heart, yes," he said, explaining it was "through God's help."
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T-Bone
Actually, I'm of the opinion that we are all sinners [don't know if that says much for anyone being the highest form of life
] – and for those who are Christian, I think it's pretty clear in the Bible that the standard for morality has already been determined by God:
I Corinthians 5:9-13 NASB
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
It goes back to what I was saying earlier in post # 277 – about the moral intent of the law, revealed in the words of Jesus and Paul - you shall love your neighbor as yourself…Jesus also summed up the moral intent of Scripture a little differently in:
Matthew 7:12 NASB
In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Known as the Golden Rule, it seems to have been around for a real long time! I think a few ancient Greek philosophers like Pythagoras and Epictetus are attributed with some form of it – besides showing up in other ancient civilizations. From my Christian viewpoint – I tend to think for this simple all encompassing moral code to make various appearances like that – it may be by design of our Creator – building into our conscience, a moral template so to speak. Which may be inferred from Romans 2:
Romans 2:14, 15 NASB
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
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excathedra
posts too long too much bible :)
not in my case....
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socks
Interesting stuff, T-Bone.
Grace doesn't promote sin, of course. Salvation and repentance won't take a person to a state in this life where they will not sin, in thought or action - Paul spoke of "Who will rescue me from the body of death?"
Forgiveness in Christ is one thing - Paul prays to be rescued, delivered from the "bodyof death", the power of his sinful nature. He knew to live one way, "in Christ", but recognized that he often didn't. Know one thing, do another.
There's a response required in forgiveness, for it to mean anything. If it's a given that I'm always going to be loaded down by a sinful nature, but I've been forgiven, the logical next question is - "so does it matter anymore what I do?" Paul attempts to clarify that - of course it does - forgivenss isn't a license to continue doing wrong. "But I will anyway, we all will, it's an endless cycle."
License - permission. We're not talking Learner's Permit here. Does being saved mean that I now am bullet proof? Obviously we all take some hits in life - why? The answer's simple. Wecan choose to bring forth good fruit or bad fruit, depending on what we pursue.
It brings up a serious question - if a person "accepts Christ" with no real desire to repent, to turn away from their former allegiances and realign with God through Christ - what's really happened? Nothing more than wishful thinking and an investment in an easy-out. Believing Christ rose from the dead could be nothing more thana mental exercise for someone - sure, I do! God raised Him. Now I'm saved! whew! that was easy!!! There's clearly more to a "Christian" life than that.
This smacks of "works" - but it's not. Romans 10:9 and 10 can not be taken as a formula, stand alone - do this and nothing else matters. Time and again "repentance" is spoken of in the New Testament, with salvation, forgiveness and grace. Turn away from what you were and turn to God through Christ and you will be saved. How? Understand that as the son of God He died as a fulfillment and sacrifice for sin, and was raised up from death in newness of life. Christ gave up all, as a man truly turned away from the former life and was raised up to a new one. Literally, metaphorically, the message is the same. We need to make the same turn, the same repentance, recognition and transition in our hearts.
This isn't to say that no forgiveness can be forthcoming without the other things - forgiveness comes to each person. What we choose to do with it determines the outcome.
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excathedra
i'm sorry t-bone that i didn't read all your stuff
what you said, socks, and what anyone else said above here....
i hardly ever explain where "i'm at" in all of this
nor do i ever expect any of you to do so
--
when i talk about the cruelty i witnessed or experienced, i don't think i've ever brought forgiveness into the picture
at least i hope i haven't
--
my days of explaining are over
bye bye twi
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J0nny Ling0
I wonder what it was like, when they took Jesus' hands and bound them? I wonder what it was like when they took a heavy hammer and began to pound steel spikes through his hands. Think of those metacarpal bones being smashed to smithereens as those huge nails went through his hands and into the wood of the cross. Think about how those huge steel spikes were driven through the top of the instep of his feet and into the wood of The Cross. Have you ever rolled your ankle and experienced a sprained ankle that swelled up like a soft ball? Yes, most of you have, including me, and we KNOW how much it hurts. And yet Jesus was NAILED like a common criminal to a tree! Steel through flesh and bone! AFTER he was whipped, beaten, ridiculed, spit upon, and accused of being a LIAR, which he was not. Yeah, they crucified him all right. Killed him. Murdered him. And yet he asked his Heavenly Father to forgive them before he died. NOw that is a HERO I can look up to and emulate. How about you?
NONE of you have ever experienced the humiliation that our LORD went through, yet some of you choose to judge and ridicule your enemies. Well, I'd rather hang with the Big Guy, and try and follow His footsteps, and NOT yours...
P.S.
I notice that there is no comment on the "Amish forgiveness situation". No surprise, I guess....
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Ham
ever stop for a moment and think that perhaps.. what happened to other people FELT the same to them?
:)
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J0nny Ling0
Yet he truly was innocent, and we are far from it. And I doubt any of us ever went through what he did for you and I. All of the sins of the world laid on his back, plus the agony of the torture? The total aloneness. No friends, Peter couldn't even stay awake with him while he prayed in The Garden for on hour? No, I don't think we anybody else has been in his league...
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What The Hey
I am well aware T-Bone was using a specific definition of the term church, (that being, as you put it, the conventional, universal recongized one) but "the church" or "a church" is not limited to that specific narrow definition. (Please re-read the definition of church above - highlighted in red.) People can be, and are called-out for various reasons. Praise and worship is just one of many reasons why people could be called-out, but a church is not limited to that specific definition.
In Acts 19:24-32, Demetrius gathered together a group of silversmiths and emotionally encited them against the apostle Paul. Now Demetrius didn't gather the silversmiths together for a "Praise and Worship" service, but he had led those silversmiths into believing their craft was in danger and would come to nothing - as well as the temple of the "great goddess Diana" should be despised and her magnifance be destroyed (v.26,27). What was the result of that gathering? Praise and Worship? No, it was confusion. (v.32 says: "Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly [ekklesia, the church] was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.) The assembly (the ekklesia) wasn't called there by Demetrius for a modern-day "Praise and Worship" service.
God's Word, the bible, is not limited to some "conventional, universal, easily recognized modern-day Noah Webster's definition" of the meaning of the word - church, regardless of what limitations modern-day man decides to place upon the Word of God. (And modern-day man does it to a whole lot more words in the Word of God than just the word - "church".)
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