Then that is your choice. But I forgive you Rascal.
But I hardly think that this should now bar me from discussion on a topic such as forgiveness, or any other topic for that matter just because you are in that discussion as well. And if my perspective runs at odds with yours, then I guess you might perceive it as me "not forgiving you", or view it as me "persecuting you", but that will be your choice Ispose. I have been instructed in the Scriptures to speak God's Word, and forgiveness is a huge topic when it comes to our Lord Jesus Christ and when dealing with other Humans. But just like I said before, forgiving someone is not the same as "giving them a pass", a stamp of approval on their actions. I don't always do that (speak God's Word), but I have the right to do that, and on this topic here, I think that forgiving those who have trespassed against us in The Way is completely in order. You do not think that. Fine, don't think it. That is your privilege. The guy who started this thread wanted input, and I commented in it. By the way, he sent me a very nice comment, thanking me for my perspective. He is a younger fella, grew up in The Way.
Discussion is one thing, finger pointing, chest beating tirades and ranting accusations against any whom don`t share your beliefs is quite another.
Out of curiosity,and seriously not because I WANT to be contentious..lol..:) ....but darn it...I just have to ask....just when exactly did you forgive me anyway? Was it before this thread? Is it still all right to bring it up if you had indeed forgiven? If it is ok for you to discuss my shortcomings after granting forgivness without you being considered bitter....why can`t I discuss that pig wierwille and his crimes without being considered *a piece of work* and having indulged in a *bitter pill*??
Was it all right to stalk and bully, deride and insult because a poster didn`t share your point of view? Is that how you treat someone whom you have forgiven?
The answeres to these question directly affect how much I believe you really walk your talk fellow.
Oh, and JUST because we didn`t get a nice little note when we didn`t respond in the manner which the poster required...shrug, I don`t think that made your input any more valid or correct than everyone elses :)
If you have indeed forgiven my lack of appreciation for your stories just today, well then cool beans, and thanks :) I honestly look forward to seeing the kinder gentler side of Jonny Lingo :)
p.s. I really wouldn`t not apologize and ask for forgivness, once I am aware that I have offended.
Jonny, please accept my heart felt apologies for having upset you with my lack of regard for the sharing your fond memories. I will do everything within my power to avoid causing you distress by my insensitivity in the future. I look forward to the exchange of ideas with you without rancor in the future :)
Excathedra, that makes sense. The wow that witnessed to me claimed that he prayed when he arrived in town for the first person he spoke to to be hungry for the word....Darn it, that just happened to be me :(
He recent.y told me that at the time, God told him, that my best friend would have turned me gay if I hadn`t responded. It is really wierd, but my dearest friends in the world through out high school came out of the closet on our graduation day.
He didn`t know that.
Personally, I have to wonder if gay wouldn`t have been the better of the two choices :)
I think that if in the right time and the right place the "innies" had shown a fraction of your outrage that maybe the shipwreck wouldn't have ever happened.
Dear Excathedra,
I've been thinking of the disciples on the road to Emmaus, I hope it'll help to think of that. I am now being required to get off the computer.
Jeff, people did. People like Don`tworry be happy stood up and told the leaders they were wrong.... There were women that stood up and said *NO* and tried to confront lcm and vpw ..there were people who refused to follow instructions that would hurt people.
The thing was...when they did these things...leadership declared them *posessed* and threw them out.
I was told that is I went to a meeting where Ralph D, John Lynn and a few others were talking about the problems of the ministry that I would be posessed. I was told that if I went to a meeting or even talked to someone whom had been to the meeting ...that I would become possessed.
I was told to never speak to these people even the ones who simply went to the meeting or heard the tape ...again.
Valiant people tried to be heard, but we were so conditioned (brainwashed) that we couldn`t hear what these brave souls had to say.
That is why we never heard the voices of outrage when we were IN twi.
Sure, I was just thinking about you and how you've been hurt. I've been hurt too, in a different manner and for different reasons.
I ended up thinking about the disciples on the road to Emmaus and how down hearted they were about their current events. They had been expecting better too.
Then all of the sudden they met this man who opened up the scriptures for them and showed them why these evil things had happened, and their hearts were lit on fire. (The good fire of course)
It was the risen Lord Jesus Christ taking care of their hearts!!!!!
And in another post you said you were hoping he could explain it someday.
Dear Excathedra, he will explain it someday even according to the scriptures.
Then he'll wipe away our tears.
Then he'll make it o.k.
Then he'll reveal the darkness hidden in mens' hearts and we will all have praise in God.
I'm sorry I was running out of time the other day. It didn't leave me time to share what was on my heart, just a little scripture reference.
He wasn't even born with sin and he suffered worse than either of us. I'm thinking he's qualified to take care of your dear heart Excathedra.
DEAR RASCAL,
I'm relieved and angry at the same time.
I'm relieved that even as this evil happened that there were good people that stood up to it. I'm not entirely sure by your post if you were at this meeting or if you were just told about it, but I understand the threats and the attempt to keep it quite.
I am angry that the evil happened in spite of the warnings, it makes it without excuse and the things that happened are in the category of deliberate evil, and not just simply being overcome in a fault. At least they've been warned though. (HEB 10:26-31) UNFORGIVEN SIN IN REALITY, not just in theory.
I wish that some of your critics here would realise it might be that the only reason they do not share in your moral outrage is because at TWI people were systematically desensitized and trained to let these things slide.
They still live in this nasty little mindset that they were led into and don't realize that widespread moral outrage is a just response to people being destroyed.
Moral outrage is better then lemming mentality.
I'll follow you off the cliff.
Hey you, yelling about the cliff, SHUT UP.
You not being spiritual or gentle or kind to my leader.
I think that you nailed it....Desensitization! I know that there is nothing wrong with being morally outraged and shouting about these crimes from the roof tops. Believe it or not, I even understand some peoples need to shut us up.
I think that it is tied up in self worth, in perception, ones view of ones own worth. Gosh, we were God`s spiritual elite, his crack troops, setting the world on fire with the word...We had a noble cause, a glorious mission. People in leadership position had power and prestige. People listened and obeyed, had respect, even reverence for these leaders of God`s people.
We invested decades of our lives in service, we followed orders that were detrimental to our lives and families, we brokenly subjected ourselves to evil assault believing that God required this of us and that the nobility of our motives in following evil orders would cause it to be alright.
Who wants to believe that we were deceived? That these men used us, used our resources, used our homes, our time to sate their lusts and fill their bellies? Who wants to go from God`s spiritual elite, whom suffered and sacrificed to see God`s word over the world...to the spiritually deceived, those whom were duped into serving evil men, whilst they destroyed our brethren???
I think that one has to make us liars, make the people speaking up as the evil ones, because to consider the alternative is unbearable.
So we are either psychotic liars, or perpetually whining victims, or foolish, or should have known better, or maybe what happened just wasn`t as bad as we remember....
If one can desensitize themselves to the horrors that were endured at these men`s hands, convince themselves that it really was alright, then one doesn`t have to face the unpleasant alternative.
The meeting that I spoke of, I was in a small town in Kansas. The leaders whom had stood up and tried to make a difference were coming to our state. We were invited to hear what these people had to say.
Our LC called us and told us that these men were possessed and working for Satan. We were told that if we went, if we listened, that we too would probably become possessed. When our best friends went anyway, our LC then told us to have no contact with our friends or anybody else whom attended the meeting because they were probably possessed.
I am ashamed to say that good little wafers that we were back then, we obeyed and severed contact. We spoke occasionally in the ensuing years but always kept these people at arms length because of their spiritually suspiscious activities.
I don't see a mandate in God's word for his children to apply unrelenting moral outrage. I do however see forgiveness as a theme in the epistles and elsewhere. Forgiving others because one is aware of what God forgave one for, is the ticket.
Here's what Jesus said about that:
Mat 18:21 ¶ Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Well, that`s all well and good as long as we allow ourselves to ignore those pesky parts of the bible, the verses that talk about how Jesus treated the pharacees and people who used or mistreated God`s people, the false prophets and the wolves in sheeps clothing.
Oh and musn`t forget the folks that Jesus tells in the end to *depart from him, for he knew them not! But that wouldn`t really be very accurate or honest.
Guess I will continue to express my moral outrage as vigorously as Jesus did in those situations, though I have yet to chase anybody with whips or flip any tables :)
Apples and oranges. Jesus was there in person, reproving and correcting and confronting live human beings with current events as opposed to engaging in anonymous internet outrage against 30-year-old sins by the deceased.
Additionally, Jesus was/is perfect, a sinless human being. How you or me can morally compare i.e. "because Jesus did it so can we" is I think an outrage all by itself. Wow.
Apples and oranges. Jesus was there in person, reproving and correcting and confronting live human beings with current events as opposed to engaging in anonymous internet outrage against 30-year-old sins by the deceased.
The discussions here involve current events as well.
It is true that some of these events happened many years ago, but the emotional, psychological, economic, and even physical effects( such as people who were physically injured while carrying out the directives of The Way) are still very real and current for those affected. The outrage is not just about something that happened in the past but also about how it is still impacting the lives of those involved. There is one poster who comes to mind whose life was profoundly and permanently changed because of injuries sustained at rodeo school.
And that's just one example. There are probably thousands more.
No, it's not just about something that is in the past. It is about the "here and now" as well.
Additionally, Jesus was/is perfect, a sinless human being. How you or me can morally compare i.e. "because Jesus did it so can we" is I think an outrage all by itself. Wow.
More like comparing the Son of God and other Biblical figures to a delusional, amoral, drunken con man who made absolutely no lasting impact on the history of The World aside from those folks who were touched by his so-called "ministry".
Comparing "this stuff never happened" to "the act of forgiveness" is the real apples and oranges in this discussion.
I wonder if we'd be urged to forgive if we were outraged by the sins and failings that happenmed with a mainstream trinitarian minister, now dead.
Or if it is really that some still do believe that VPW taught the truth like it hasn't been known since the first century, and we and GSC are Satan worker bees.
...Jesus was there in person, reproving and correcting and confronting live human beings with current events as opposed to engaging in anonymous internet outrage against 30-year-old sins by the deceased....
His victims and his lies are still alive…And another thing…A few times Jesus referred to the sins of the deceased – and showed it had bearing on current issues. Very similar to discussions on Grease Spot that reveal vp'sreal legacy – his moral depravity is alive and well at TWI.
Matthew 23:30-32 NIV
30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
Luke 6:22-26 NIV
22 Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
24 "But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25 Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.
Luke 11:47, 48 NIV
47 "Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them.
48 So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.
I wonder if these fellows would be singing the same song if it had been THEM who were invited to the motor coach, if it were THEM who was given an innocent looking drink, if it was THEM who was raped.
I wonder if it was THEM who were told by the old perv that God wanted him to heal them sexually.
I wonder if it was these folks that suffered the ultimate betrayal....I mean just where can you GO if it appears that God and your minister are the ones whom are destroying you AFTER you have been talked into alienating all family and friends and encouraged to burn all of your bridges????
It is a mighty alone feeling :(
Somehow, I just don`t feel like they would be as eager to silence the outrage.
Apples and oranges. Jesus was there in person, reproving and correcting and confronting live human beings with current events as opposed to engaging in anonymous internet outrage against 30-year-old sins by the deceased.
Well it IS relative and important because these evil men are survived by their doctrine that still hurts people to this day.
Oldies, you said....Additionally, Jesus was/is perfect, a sinless human being. How you or me can morally compare i.e. "because Jesus did it so can we" is I think an outrage all by itself. Wow.
How can we morally compete??? Are you freaking kidding me???? That simply is what you do when you are *of the spirit*
Drugging, rape, alcoholism, abuse, theft, lies, simply are not attractive and not something that men and women of the spirit do or manifest...shrug
I have to say that I know a lot of people who aren`t christian that have no problem behaving in a moral, ethical fashion. Why on earth cut this monster who destroyed so much in God`s name any slack? He is even MORE culpable, and to be despised.
Guess I will continue to express my moral outrage as vigorously as Jesus did in those situations, though I have yet to chase anybody with whips or flip any tables
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J0nny Ling0
Yes.
Then that is your choice. But I forgive you Rascal.
But I hardly think that this should now bar me from discussion on a topic such as forgiveness, or any other topic for that matter just because you are in that discussion as well. And if my perspective runs at odds with yours, then I guess you might perceive it as me "not forgiving you", or view it as me "persecuting you", but that will be your choice Ispose. I have been instructed in the Scriptures to speak God's Word, and forgiveness is a huge topic when it comes to our Lord Jesus Christ and when dealing with other Humans. But just like I said before, forgiving someone is not the same as "giving them a pass", a stamp of approval on their actions. I don't always do that (speak God's Word), but I have the right to do that, and on this topic here, I think that forgiving those who have trespassed against us in The Way is completely in order. You do not think that. Fine, don't think it. That is your privilege. The guy who started this thread wanted input, and I commented in it. By the way, he sent me a very nice comment, thanking me for my perspective. He is a younger fella, grew up in The Way.
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rascal
Discussion is one thing, finger pointing, chest beating tirades and ranting accusations against any whom don`t share your beliefs is quite another.
Out of curiosity,and seriously not because I WANT to be contentious..lol..:) ....but darn it...I just have to ask....just when exactly did you forgive me anyway? Was it before this thread? Is it still all right to bring it up if you had indeed forgiven? If it is ok for you to discuss my shortcomings after granting forgivness without you being considered bitter....why can`t I discuss that pig wierwille and his crimes without being considered *a piece of work* and having indulged in a *bitter pill*??
Was it all right to stalk and bully, deride and insult because a poster didn`t share your point of view? Is that how you treat someone whom you have forgiven?
The answeres to these question directly affect how much I believe you really walk your talk fellow.
Oh, and JUST because we didn`t get a nice little note when we didn`t respond in the manner which the poster required...shrug, I don`t think that made your input any more valid or correct than everyone elses :)
If you have indeed forgiven my lack of appreciation for your stories just today, well then cool beans, and thanks :) I honestly look forward to seeing the kinder gentler side of Jonny Lingo :)
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rascal
p.s. I really wouldn`t not apologize and ask for forgivness, once I am aware that I have offended.
Jonny, please accept my heart felt apologies for having upset you with my lack of regard for the sharing your fond memories. I will do everything within my power to avoid causing you distress by my insensitivity in the future. I look forward to the exchange of ideas with you without rancor in the future :)
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potato
omg rascal, thanks for the laughs today! I had some unhappy news today and reading your posts made me LOL, now I feel a lot better
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excathedra
i have always wondered about that which jonny brought up
i prayed an unbelievable prayer of despair and someone came and witnessed to me
also, i got so hurt by veepee that it still hurts me to this day
but i do think god was there with me, i really do
but i don't know how to explain it
i'm hoping he can someday
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rascal
(((Potato))) I am sorry that you had a rough day.
Excathedra, that makes sense. The wow that witnessed to me claimed that he prayed when he arrived in town for the first person he spoke to to be hungry for the word....Darn it, that just happened to be me :(
He recent.y told me that at the time, God told him, that my best friend would have turned me gay if I hadn`t responded. It is really wierd, but my dearest friends in the world through out high school came out of the closet on our graduation day.
He didn`t know that.
Personally, I have to wonder if gay wouldn`t have been the better of the two choices :)
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JeffSjo
Dear Rascal,
I think that if in the right time and the right place the "innies" had shown a fraction of your outrage that maybe the shipwreck wouldn't have ever happened.
Dear Excathedra,
I've been thinking of the disciples on the road to Emmaus, I hope it'll help to think of that. I am now being required to get off the computer.
Gotta go, God Bless.
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rascal
Jeff, people did. People like Don`tworry be happy stood up and told the leaders they were wrong.... There were women that stood up and said *NO* and tried to confront lcm and vpw ..there were people who refused to follow instructions that would hurt people.
The thing was...when they did these things...leadership declared them *posessed* and threw them out.
I was told that is I went to a meeting where Ralph D, John Lynn and a few others were talking about the problems of the ministry that I would be posessed. I was told that if I went to a meeting or even talked to someone whom had been to the meeting ...that I would become possessed.
I was told to never speak to these people even the ones who simply went to the meeting or heard the tape ...again.
Valiant people tried to be heard, but we were so conditioned (brainwashed) that we couldn`t hear what these brave souls had to say.
That is why we never heard the voices of outrage when we were IN twi.
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excathedra
dear jeff, could you explain ? thanks
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Ham
which didn't exactly prove a "problem" for them.. they just kept up until they'd find the "right" kind of personality who would..
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JeffSjo
DEAR EXCATHEDRA,
Sure, I was just thinking about you and how you've been hurt. I've been hurt too, in a different manner and for different reasons.
I ended up thinking about the disciples on the road to Emmaus and how down hearted they were about their current events. They had been expecting better too.
Then all of the sudden they met this man who opened up the scriptures for them and showed them why these evil things had happened, and their hearts were lit on fire. (The good fire of course)
It was the risen Lord Jesus Christ taking care of their hearts!!!!!
And in another post you said you were hoping he could explain it someday.
Dear Excathedra, he will explain it someday even according to the scriptures.
Then he'll wipe away our tears.
Then he'll make it o.k.
Then he'll reveal the darkness hidden in mens' hearts and we will all have praise in God.
I'm sorry I was running out of time the other day. It didn't leave me time to share what was on my heart, just a little scripture reference.
He wasn't even born with sin and he suffered worse than either of us. I'm thinking he's qualified to take care of your dear heart Excathedra.
DEAR RASCAL,
I'm relieved and angry at the same time.
I'm relieved that even as this evil happened that there were good people that stood up to it. I'm not entirely sure by your post if you were at this meeting or if you were just told about it, but I understand the threats and the attempt to keep it quite.
I am angry that the evil happened in spite of the warnings, it makes it without excuse and the things that happened are in the category of deliberate evil, and not just simply being overcome in a fault. At least they've been warned though. (HEB 10:26-31) UNFORGIVEN SIN IN REALITY, not just in theory.
I wish that some of your critics here would realise it might be that the only reason they do not share in your moral outrage is because at TWI people were systematically desensitized and trained to let these things slide.
They still live in this nasty little mindset that they were led into and don't realize that widespread moral outrage is a just response to people being destroyed.
Moral outrage is better then lemming mentality.
I'll follow you off the cliff.
Hey you, yelling about the cliff, SHUT UP.
You not being spiritual or gentle or kind to my leader.
You are possesed.
be quiet about this cliff.
the rules have changed after all.
AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH I'M FALLING
AAAAHHHH
AAAHHH
AAHH
AAH
AH
AH
AH
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oldiesman
If I had to choose between lingering moral outrage and lingering forgiveness, I'd choose forgiveness. 70 X 7
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rascal
Jeff :)
I think that you nailed it....Desensitization! I know that there is nothing wrong with being morally outraged and shouting about these crimes from the roof tops. Believe it or not, I even understand some peoples need to shut us up.
I think that it is tied up in self worth, in perception, ones view of ones own worth. Gosh, we were God`s spiritual elite, his crack troops, setting the world on fire with the word...We had a noble cause, a glorious mission. People in leadership position had power and prestige. People listened and obeyed, had respect, even reverence for these leaders of God`s people.
We invested decades of our lives in service, we followed orders that were detrimental to our lives and families, we brokenly subjected ourselves to evil assault believing that God required this of us and that the nobility of our motives in following evil orders would cause it to be alright.
Who wants to believe that we were deceived? That these men used us, used our resources, used our homes, our time to sate their lusts and fill their bellies? Who wants to go from God`s spiritual elite, whom suffered and sacrificed to see God`s word over the world...to the spiritually deceived, those whom were duped into serving evil men, whilst they destroyed our brethren???
I think that one has to make us liars, make the people speaking up as the evil ones, because to consider the alternative is unbearable.
So we are either psychotic liars, or perpetually whining victims, or foolish, or should have known better, or maybe what happened just wasn`t as bad as we remember....
If one can desensitize themselves to the horrors that were endured at these men`s hands, convince themselves that it really was alright, then one doesn`t have to face the unpleasant alternative.
The meeting that I spoke of, I was in a small town in Kansas. The leaders whom had stood up and tried to make a difference were coming to our state. We were invited to hear what these people had to say.
Our LC called us and told us that these men were possessed and working for Satan. We were told that if we went, if we listened, that we too would probably become possessed. When our best friends went anyway, our LC then told us to have no contact with our friends or anybody else whom attended the meeting because they were probably possessed.
I am ashamed to say that good little wafers that we were back then, we obeyed and severed contact. We spoke occasionally in the ensuing years but always kept these people at arms length because of their spiritually suspiscious activities.
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oldiesman
I don't see a mandate in God's word for his children to apply unrelenting moral outrage. I do however see forgiveness as a theme in the epistles and elsewhere. Forgiving others because one is aware of what God forgave one for, is the ticket.
Here's what Jesus said about that:
Mat 18:21 ¶ Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
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rascal
Well, that`s all well and good as long as we allow ourselves to ignore those pesky parts of the bible, the verses that talk about how Jesus treated the pharacees and people who used or mistreated God`s people, the false prophets and the wolves in sheeps clothing.
Oh and musn`t forget the folks that Jesus tells in the end to *depart from him, for he knew them not! But that wouldn`t really be very accurate or honest.
Guess I will continue to express my moral outrage as vigorously as Jesus did in those situations, though I have yet to chase anybody with whips or flip any tables :)
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oldiesman
Apples and oranges. Jesus was there in person, reproving and correcting and confronting live human beings with current events as opposed to engaging in anonymous internet outrage against 30-year-old sins by the deceased.
Additionally, Jesus was/is perfect, a sinless human being. How you or me can morally compare i.e. "because Jesus did it so can we" is I think an outrage all by itself. Wow.
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waysider
Apples and oranges?
More like comparing the Son of God and other Biblical figures to a delusional, amoral, drunken con man who made absolutely no lasting impact on the history of The World aside from those folks who were touched by his so-called "ministry".
Comparing "this stuff never happened" to "the act of forgiveness" is the real apples and oranges in this discussion.
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excathedra
ha ! well said !
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Bramble
I wonder if we'd be urged to forgive if we were outraged by the sins and failings that happenmed with a mainstream trinitarian minister, now dead.
Or if it is really that some still do believe that VPW taught the truth like it hasn't been known since the first century, and we and GSC are Satan worker bees.
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excathedra
buzz buzz buzz beelzebub
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T-Bone
His victims and his lies are still alive…And another thing…A few times Jesus referred to the sins of the deceased – and showed it had bearing on current issues. Very similar to discussions on Grease Spot that reveal vp's real legacy – his moral depravity is alive and well at TWI.
Matthew 23:30-32 NIV
30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
Luke 6:22-26 NIV
22 Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
24 "But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25 Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.
Luke 11:47, 48 NIV
47 "Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them.
48 So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.
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rascal
I wonder if these fellows would be singing the same song if it had been THEM who were invited to the motor coach, if it were THEM who was given an innocent looking drink, if it was THEM who was raped.
I wonder if it was THEM who were told by the old perv that God wanted him to heal them sexually.
I wonder if it was these folks that suffered the ultimate betrayal....I mean just where can you GO if it appears that God and your minister are the ones whom are destroying you AFTER you have been talked into alienating all family and friends and encouraged to burn all of your bridges????
It is a mighty alone feeling :(
Somehow, I just don`t feel like they would be as eager to silence the outrage.
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rascal
Well it IS relative and important because these evil men are survived by their doctrine that still hurts people to this day.
Oldies, you said....Additionally, Jesus was/is perfect, a sinless human being. How you or me can morally compare i.e. "because Jesus did it so can we" is I think an outrage all by itself. Wow.
How can we morally compete??? Are you freaking kidding me???? That simply is what you do when you are *of the spirit*
Drugging, rape, alcoholism, abuse, theft, lies, simply are not attractive and not something that men and women of the spirit do or manifest...shrug
I have to say that I know a lot of people who aren`t christian that have no problem behaving in a moral, ethical fashion. Why on earth cut this monster who destroyed so much in God`s name any slack? He is even MORE culpable, and to be despised.
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J0nny Ling0
Okay Ms. Jesus. You go girl.
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