Can you think of one single time that VPW came to a FL night or visited our housing or came to limb to observe our work progress or did a phone hook-up thing or sent some kind of written communication expressing his awareness of our efforts?
He was only about 2 hours away.
He could have even flown into that little airport on Rt 42 in Ambassador One if he wanted to.
Maybe he did. I don't know.
It sure wasn't in the 3 years I spent there, though.
Dontworrybehappy, Thanks for all that you tried to do to make things right. I mean it....even when so many of us couldn`t hear what you had to say. I can not imagine having the courage to stand up against those guys. Our thinking was so warped by the teachings.
Do you know that twi was so afraid of you and what you guys had to say, that folks were not only told to stay away from you guys because you were possessed, that we would become possessed by listening....but that we were not to have any contact with anybody who had even heard what you had to say because they were now possessed and we would be in danger also. It is too bad, if I had had the courage to listen, I might have left 5 years sooner.
Thank you for trying. Thank you for trying to do what was right, even when we believed that you were working for the devil. Thank you for what you have shared here, it helps to understand what happened and why it all went so wrong, and hopefully how to avoid that trap ever again.
Why I don't take words here at face value, because they blow like the wind
Doesn`t mean that I am currently bitter or that it grows Post #175
I know, I seem bitter, implacable, angry....I AM Post #194
Exactly why Proof is needed here, people say whatever gets them out of the argument. Accuse them of being bitter and they will act indignant who are you to know what I am? When it suits them moments later they admit that they were exactly what they were indignant about. Trust No One..........
It baffles me when anyone is NOT deeply offended and angry at what these perverts and thieves did in God`s name. I imagine that even he is disgusted at what his name and scriptures were used to fascilitate.
Teach people scriptures so that we can use them as a snare to the unwary....Use the scriptures as tools to steal, kill, and to destroy...
Yeah, sounds like God was behind THAT one all right.
Well Rascal my point was not so much in reference to you specifically it's a widespread problem and not limited to your post. Although, you have been a voice often for just accepting everything posted at face value perhaps you can understand why that is not a logical choice now. Maybe not. I think it's important that we speak honestly and accurately and while we all face challenges sometimes in conveying our points in cyber land, sometimes obvious issues do play a part in poster credibility as well. While our nature may be to just accept everything as truth because we may like someone, that ends up often in those situations as a poor choice.
Yeah Bramble, it makes about that much sense to me too. You have people getting far more angry, and offended with the people that TALK about what vpw and his good old boys did than focusing on the men whom actually participated and embraced the evil....
Aw come on Dove, I don`t believe for one miniute that you are really interested in truth or credibility.....It appears to me that you just can`t bear to have people talking about what these guys did....Is it because of what the evidence of their lives point to?? Do the conclusions make you uncomfortable?? Is that what drives your vendetta to shut people up?? Is it because you don`t want to be wrong about what you committed so much time or effort into?? Is it ego??? Only you can answere these questions for yourself.
Please, and I really mean this with no malice or bitterness or anger...please just get honest with yourself first friend, cast the beam out of your own eye before you try to remove anybody elses splinter er credibility issues.
now oldiesman is going to tell you all how and why that letter was written, 21 years later, as if he was there!......he does not know who wrote what parts of that letter.....he never participated in any of the deliberations or discussions surrounding its writing......and, he has no inkling of an idea of the what, why, where, when and how of its composition!........yet, he is somehow able to interperet for you all, the nuances of that letter which he has already inaccurately described, and totally misinformed you about!.......and, somehow, this letter of 21 years ago is relevant to my post about clapp and cff??.........oldiesman is completely ignorant about how and why that letter was written, let alone what the "outlook of dr.wierwille" was in the minds of those who wrote it!.........and, once again, what is that letter's relevance to my post??
DWBH,
I thought it was relevant by your own critique. Here you criticise Clapp for choosing to stand with twi with full knowledge of all the sins committed, when it appears you yourself chose to do the same. The thing that struck me most about your 37-page letter to the Trustees in February of 1987 was the vagueness of it all. NOTHING SPECIFIC was mentioned about adultery, fornication, plagiarism, rape, alcoholism, etc. And this was some 2-3 years after you knew about what was going on.
If you were fighting in the midst against all the sins that hurt folks and ruined the ministry, what better way to reprove and correct with SPECIFICS rather than vague generalities about how the Trustees needed to change? On top of that, continual praises and quotations of Dr. Wierwille's teachings. It doesn't matter who wrote what parts of that letter. You signed it. And so my feeling is, if you're going to criticize Clapp for not standing up against the Kool Aid, perhaps you should consider your own actions at the time.
...i can assure you all that oldiesman has NEVER talked with me regarding what my "outlook of dr. wierwille" was 22 years ago then, or at any time since!...
I PM'd DWBH years ago under his former GS name, asking several questions and requesting a dialogue, but never got a response. I again PM most recently and didn't get a response. I would LOVE to talk with DWBH but it's kind of hard to talk with someone who won't talk back.
...sue pierce was also a signatory to that letter........why is that fact omitted?...
Sue Pierce's name was not on the letter that I have. I received this letter from dmiller a couple of years ago, and as I recall, offered to send it to anyone by PDF if they wanted. The offer still stands, and I wish Paw would put this letter on the GS site for all to see it and make their own judgement about it.
While our nature may be to just accept everything as truth because we may like someone, that ends up often in those situations as a poor choice.
I dunno. Just because I like someone, doesn't mean I accept everything they say as truth.
Then again, my motto isn't exactly "trust no one" either..
when I here accounts of ladies being "counselled" in the old days with something like "just get over it and get laid"..
I tend to find their claims to be credible. Why? I've seen and heard this kinda thing at least twice. And that was only because the damned limb leader was reckless at the time. Screaming obscenities, and loud enough to heardthrough two solid doors..
so, yeah.. I find a similar account VERY credible.
Or people relating living in a rather vulnerable circumstance, being screamed at they are a disgrace to the word, to God himself and the "ministry".. to pack their .... and IMMEDIATELY leave..
yeah, I find it credible.
Something VERY similar to this happened to me..
and in a very similar circumstance.
Or stories from women about physical and verbal abuse from the then spouse, sanctioned by "leaders" at the LIMB level and up..
I find it VERY credible. Why?
I saw it happen, PERSONALLY.
For these old "leaders".. life must be terrifying. It's like the night of the living dead. No matter how many times they beat the old corpses with a shovel, i.e., "just get over it and forgive like Jaysuss".. they keep coming back, to haunt them, again, and again, and again..
I can understand them. Don't exactly feel much pity for them though..
What about when he (Jesus) tells folks to *depart for he knew them not*? Is that forgiving? Is that compassionate?? Is that forgiving those whom trespassed against him???
What about THOSE footsteps of Jesus, my friend??? I suppose THAT particular passage of scripture is unimportant because it doesn`t support your brand of religion.
God changed the rules. Jesus Christ lived and taught about the time and rules he lived within.
he died and was Raised to sit with God and God rewarded HIm with the new Rules we live in currently, it is grace and all who believe upon Jesus and believe Roman 10:9 ,10 will be saved. Permantly.
Is it fun to beat people up with the law rules and what Jesus said to them in the teachings He gave?
things changed radicaly because he loved us so very much.. God changed the ruless big time for His love for Him and us.
but of course some who want to spew about other and their sins may never need the grace mankind lives within. hmm if you do not need the grace God granted us BECAUSE of Jesus christ you wont need Jesus christ and all He accomplished for us, and that is the ONLY manner anyone will see eternal life NOW in this time of grace.
but if you do not need the grace that is ok you do not need it or Jesus Christ , Maybe your the one who never really Knew him.
God still gave it to us all. the rules changed He (jesus christ) made it possible for us to now KNOW him , before as he was walking the earth as a man they couldnt KNOW Him they can not believe He was raised from the dead , HEWAS NOT DEAD.
What about when he (Jesus) tells folks to *depart for he knew them not*? Is that forgiving? Is that compassionate?? Is that forgiving those whom trespassed against him???
What about THOSE footsteps of Jesus, my friend??? I suppose THAT particular passage of scripture is unimportant because it doesn`t support your brand of religion.
God changed the rules. Jesus Christ lived and taught about the time and rules he lived within.
he died and was Raised to sit with God and God rewarded HIm with the new Rules we live in currently, it is grace and all who believe upon Jesus and believe Roman 10:9 ,10 will be saved. Permantly.
Is it fun to beat people up with the law rules and what Jesus said to them in the teachings He gave?
things changed radicaly because he loved us so very much.. God changed the ruless big time for His love for Him and us.
but of course some who want to spew about other and their sins may never need the grace mankind lives within. hmm if you do not need the grace God granted us BECAUSE of Jesus christ you wont need Jesus christ and all He accomplished for us, and that is the ONLY manner anyone will see eternal life NOW in this time of grace.
but if you do not need the grace that is ok you do not need it or Jesus Christ , Maybe your the one who never really Knew him.
God still gave it to us all. the rules changed He (jesus christ) made it possible for us to now KNOW him , before as he was walking the earth as a man they couldnt KNOW Him they can not believe He was raised from the dead , HEWAS NOT DEAD.
Aw come on Dove, I don't believe for one minute that you are really interested in truth or credibility.....
I think I have consistently asked for truth and credibility look back through the threads here I have often taken the most heat because of that stand.
It appears to me that you just can't bear to have people talking about what these guys did....Is it because of what the evidence of their lives point to?? Do the conclusions make you uncomfortable??
You see, that's just it I have never said people could not talk about whatever they wanted to. I have taken exception when it was not factual. There in lies the problem ,there is often no evidence as you said to point to, just opinion, likewise no conclusions because there is nothing to base a conclusion on unless of course you just say I believe it without any evidence. Your post is an example of why that is not a logical choice.
Is that what drives your vendetta to shut people up?? Is it because you don't want to be wrong about what you committed so much time or effort into?? Is it ego??? Only you can answerer these questions for yourself
.
As I stated my drive is for truth, not made up information, dishonest information, non factual information. When people can't even be honest about their own emotions how can one trust them to be honest about weightier matters? I have no desire to shut people up . That's the difference I've observed between what some would call Wierwille worshipers and those who have issues with the Way, I often see those seen as pro Way post give and take on issues, most acknowledge that there were valid cases of wrong done, on the other side it is rare to see the same give and take, Even at the sake of being dishonest about ones own emotions they will post whatever is necessary for the cause of only seeing bad. Sorry but to me it is a red flag when someone will be dishonest about how they feel, their words on a face value basis are suspect.
If God gave Dr. Wierwille what amounts to a conditional promise, then God will judge. I know throughout the years that it's been misused, but promising to teach him the Word like it hasn't been known since the 1st century.... if he'd teach..... is a conditional promise. It never meant that everything would always be good, nor did I ever hear it presented that PFAL was the fulfillment of that promise. I just always assumed it was understood that it was to be a work in progress and that only God would be in charge of its success or failure.
I believe all of you that in the later years it was missrepresented, missused, and missapplied to everyone's harm. I know a lot of you disagree, but even with the terrible results, it wouldn't be the first time people have completely botched a conditional promise from God.
If God didn't give Dr. Wiewille the conditional promise, then there is still so much good in the doctrine for me that I have to give it some credit for the simple fact that there were things taught that I believe to be true.
I REALLY DON'T JUDGE IT ANY DIFFERENTLY THAN ANY OTHER TIME SOMEONE SAYS GOD TALKED TO THEM.
(ADDED IN EDITING)
I haven't read that T-Bone, I'll go do that now.
P.S. O.K., I've started reading, but it's a lot. I'll keep going. It'll take more time than I have today.
It sounds like you're way ahead of the game already. I think a major weakness "bred" into TWI followers was the tendency to absorb rather than analyze information. It's very subtle – but TWI followers eventually acquire a thing called "learned helplessness." We felt almost duty bound to confer with upper leadership on most things because we doubted our own thinking ability. Most folks relied on upper leadership to do the thinking for them.
After I left TWI and went through a crisis of faith – it was through much prayer and reflection that I adopted a two-pronged approach to figuring out where I went wrong. I am a technician by trade – and have an innate desire to analyze the life out of anything! Anyway, I began analyzing both the man [vpw] and the doctrines. This is extremely difficult to do for some people – since the average TWI mindset is all-or-nothing-thinking. But that goes against the biblical directive to prove all things.
Something else in regards to critical thinking, I think each person is different in thought patterns and experiences which will have bearing on one's assumptions, perceptions, conclusions, etc. That's why you'll find a wide variety of opinions on vp as well as viewpoints on doctrine.
IMHO, there's an aspect of our thought process that works like a two-way street. Beliefs shape perceptions/experiences and perceptions/experiences shape beliefs. To me, critical thinking is NOT the amazing ability to discover truth or reality. It's a keen awareness of that two-way street – and with a humble attitude analyzing in detail those beliefs, perceptions, and experiences – identifying assumptions, biases, issues, faulty logic, relationships, disparities, inconsistencies, etc. It's like going on a hunt – to find the core elements on a given topic and giving it our best THINKING.
Enjoy the Grease Spot experience…and happy hunting.
When I refer to the best of TWI and the best Of PFAL and the best of Dr. Wierwille its usually refering to what they said and taught about critical thinking in terms of proving things. These things I am bound to be thankful for no matter how badly they were botched as things developed in TWI. I do not let the mistakes erase what stands the test of time for me.
When I hear people who were hurt very badly or know people who were hurt very badly I listen with compassion and just want them to be settled. It's not an easy thing to come to terms with when in compassion you feel someone's pain.
I believe that evil things have been being done in the Lord's name since the first century and before. It's not hard to make a list either. A lot of it was much worse that TWI. Thousands of people have been LITERALLY tortured and killed in his name "supposedly in his name that is."
When I believe that the watchmen didn't get the job done and then here Don'tWorreyBeHappy share it gives me pause to reconsider that opinion. I believe God himself allways gives his people chances to turn and of course the love of God was working even though things went bad.
When I here people share that the rules have changed and that the focus on sin is wrong, or that remembering sin proves bitterness i think of many scriptures in the epistles that plainly make the case for the consequences of sin on a ministry or anyone else. John said he'd remember Diotrephes words and actions for instance. With all the sins written of in the book of acts for our learning nearly 2000 years ago, why would anyone put on blinders today, I mean come on, Simon the sorcerer, Annanias and Saphira, Herod not giving God the Glory, etc. etc.
GRACE AND MERCEY DO NOT REPLACE TRUTH AND HONESTY. In the big picture they go together. Mercy requires sin first, but then so does judgement. It's God's decision. In general I desire mercy when I sin, but it's God's call. For some things Paul warns the Lord will simply AVENGE, this thought scares me. He's a lot lot lot bigger than any of us, even if in his Grace he's willing to call us bretheren.
If you want to talk about grace and mercy covering it because the rules have changed then you must line it up with the scriptures concerning judgement in the very same epistles written during the time when you claim the rules have changed in order for me to give you any credibility at all.
(addeed in editing)
Just another little point here. Since so many evil things have been done in His name throughout history I must conclude that these things need to happen for the scriptures to be true. HE'LL make it o.k. in the end, just like the scriptures have fortold too.
Whatever you have to tell yourself to make your behavior ok Dove. To me your accusations in order to allow yourself to dismiss the content of ones posts are like straining at gnats.
I personally, will never understand not being deeply offended by what these guys did....even more so...the defending and making excuses for their sadistic cruelty.
It`s like something internally is broken, and to me a symptom of the contamination from contact with twi. We were taught bible scriptures and then how to use them deceitfully. We aquired knowledge, and then how to use it as a weapon. We were introduced to God in name, and then placed under men claiming their status as HIS leaders to be enslaved by them.
I see the people who never got away from the twi mindset, the ones whom just continued to hang around people who think, speak, act the same way they all did in twi....STILL trying to employ the same methods today....utilize scriptures deceitfully and dishonestly in order to try to bully people into the behavior we desire....namely shut the heck up so nobody knows what perverts we served in a sham of a ministry....oh you need to shut up cause your lying...doesn`t matter how many corroborating stories there are....oh...you just need to stop being a gossiper, or back biter....doesn`t matter that it isn`t gossip OR back biting if it is true.....you are just being overly sensative and need to just stop whining and get over it....oh well I guess it might have happened...but you really deserved it anyway because you should have known better....doesn`t matter if you were young and naieve, trusting a minister to behave with integrity, never dreaming that they were trying to get in your pants, that they would employ any means of manipulation, even down to drugging to achieve their aims...finally to be culminated with....oh you just need to forgive these poor fellows and move on.....don`t be such a meanie pants.....it`s for your own good...(yeah like I believe for one instant anything twi adherents do is for anybody elses good)
ALL manipulations I see employed here, ALL complete with scriptural back up...ALL with the aim to shut people up.In my opinion, it is deceitful and a dishonest application of scripture.
TWI indoctrination at it`s finest.
Honestly, and I say this with all the sincerity in my heart. I believe that it takes getting away from twi doctrine....interacting with genuine christians, men and women who are of the spirit to recognize the depravity of twi.
Too bad you aren`t willing to apply the same standard demanding proof, thirst for accuracy and accountability to the leaders on twi who ravaged and destroyed people by the thousands.
And, I would like to go on record that I have no problem that people here say what they know about what the "MOGs" did. (That term just flat cracks me up!) What I do resent is that some people here seem intent on proving that there was absolutely nothing good at all in The Way at any time ever, and that all who were involved were deceived mindless robots, and that God had nothing to do with it, and that any and all of the time spent there was a complete waste of a Life.
And for the record, I do not fellowship with any group these days, Splinter, Church, Synagogue, or Mosque. But I am very thankful for many many things I learned in The Way and in The Way Corps and keep those good things with me. I learned to work honestly and hard as in the work ethic, I learned public speaking which I enjoy, I learned to write and was inspired to do so when I wrote my research paper (which was really lousy and stupid too-but it did inspire me to continue in writing), and I learned a lot about the Bible. And of course I met within The Way some of the greatest people on the Planet. And some of the funniest too! Oh the times we had in Alaska when certain leaders would come up to teach the Bible! It was an outright blast!
But, when mentioning these things in the past here, I was told by certain people that I was just "sophomoric" and having a spirited good time at the expense and destruction of others' lives, blah blah blah. Or that "those things that I learned could have been learned anywhere". Now, that last statement is true in a large way. BUT, I didn't learn them "anywhere". I learned them in The Way. I had gotten on my knees one time and prayed to God to please send a Christian person to me to tell me out Jesus Christ. And, the very NEXT DAY, a sweet gal from New York, a WOW, came to work on my restaurant boat as a cocktail waitress. And, as I said before, she opened God's Word to me. Her very presence was witness enough for me. I prayed, He answered. So what was that, a cruel joke on an 18 year old kid by the Lord God Almighty? I will never be convinced that it was, and I will never be convinced that I wasted my youth like some here have declared.
It is my opinion from what I have seen and when I was involved, that VP started out good, went way bad and hurt a good number of people. This is terrible. It is a travesty. But I believe (getting back to the thread here) that it is in the best interest to forgive those who have trespassed against us which enables we humans to let go of the anger and bitterness. To forgive is not to "offer a pass" to the offender. To forgive seems that it mostly offers relief for the one trespassed against, not relief for the trespassER. God Almighty will deal with the trespassER. That's His job, not ours. If the TrespassERS are alive, then sure, expose them. If they are dead, and your incident with them is long since over with, then forgive and try to fuggedaboudit...
Hey glad that you guys had a good time ....really! Why on earth let the spector of your brothers and sisters being sacrificed on the alter to serve the mog`s special appetites...the innocents whom were required to sate the mogs lusts....diminish ones personal memories?
I mean REALLY...who the heck cares about those who were tormented and even died as long as a few of us learned a bit, and aquired some materials for a story or two?
Party on dude, For goodness sakes...please don`t let the whiners or complainers besmirch the memories of those fun times.
As far as the topic of this thread??
Forgive all you want friend, but don`t pretend for an instant that circular twi reasoning ...ie leaving out half of the scriptures regarding the subject, in anyway makes you an authority on when and why anyone ELSE is required by God to forgive.
Untill one analyzes all of the information on forgivness, it truly is nothing more than personal opinion.
You know Jonny, your post has got me to really thinking. It has been years since I expressed my dismay at your attitude. It really must eat at you like a canker, I mean every chance you get, you bring up how mean old rascal crapped on your fun memories.
When, I posted that one time, it was never intended to be an insult, but an attempt to try to get you to understand how hurtful it could possible be to read all of those charming little adventures knowing that while Jonny was having a great time, a sister was being raped, a child was being abused, someone was being ostracized from family friends and God`s ministry and protection for displeasing a mog.
The people who`s very worst memories, who`s most horrific nightmares, in short, some of the most painful moments suffered, the deepest shame and humiliation suffered in this life during the same time period, and under the same mogs whom you are sharing these amusing little antidotes about...Darn it, it is really hard to read, thinking about what was happening to one personally in twi whilst you frolicked in the trout stream.
You know? That is ok, you didn`t get it. My bad, but...HONESTLY now...don`t you think it is about time (according to your reasoning) that you forgave me? :)
Will you forgive me even if I don`t apologize? If I never repent? What IF, I never deign to even ask? Will you personally be willing to forgive if I refuse to ever see or acknowledge that I did anything wrong?? If I continue to be a contentious arse for the next two years??? What if I tell you to quit being a perpetually whining little victim, and to shut the heck up????
Will you, and can you forgive me and never mention it again?? It`s been a couple of years now, are you going to still be mad in 5..in 10? Do you personally consider yourself bitter yet?
Honestly now....isn`t that exactly what you are advocating and requiring of others here whom endured a whole lot more than a lack of appreciation for your stories about good times enjoyed in twi?
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waysider
Calling all fellow laborers.
Can you think of one single time that VPW came to a FL night or visited our housing or came to limb to observe our work progress or did a phone hook-up thing or sent some kind of written communication expressing his awareness of our efforts?
He was only about 2 hours away.
He could have even flown into that little airport on Rt 42 in Ambassador One if he wanted to.
Maybe he did. I don't know.
It sure wasn't in the 3 years I spent there, though.
But, hey!!
I forgive him
(for failing to even acknowledge our existence.)
And you know why?
'Cause he was such a swell guy!!!!
Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket!
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rascal
Dontworrybehappy, Thanks for all that you tried to do to make things right. I mean it....even when so many of us couldn`t hear what you had to say. I can not imagine having the courage to stand up against those guys. Our thinking was so warped by the teachings.
Do you know that twi was so afraid of you and what you guys had to say, that folks were not only told to stay away from you guys because you were possessed, that we would become possessed by listening....but that we were not to have any contact with anybody who had even heard what you had to say because they were now possessed and we would be in danger also. It is too bad, if I had had the courage to listen, I might have left 5 years sooner.
Thank you for trying. Thank you for trying to do what was right, even when we believed that you were working for the devil. Thank you for what you have shared here, it helps to understand what happened and why it all went so wrong, and hopefully how to avoid that trap ever again.
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WhiteDove
Why I don't take words here at face value, because they blow like the wind
Exactly why Proof is needed here, people say whatever gets them out of the argument. Accuse them of being bitter and they will act indignant who are you to know what I am? When it suits them moments later they admit that they were exactly what they were indignant about. Trust No One..........
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rascal
Oh gee Dove, I guess that you nailed me :)
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rascal
It baffles me when anyone is NOT deeply offended and angry at what these perverts and thieves did in God`s name. I imagine that even he is disgusted at what his name and scriptures were used to fascilitate.
Teach people scriptures so that we can use them as a snare to the unwary....Use the scriptures as tools to steal, kill, and to destroy...
Yeah, sounds like God was behind THAT one all right.
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Bramble
TWI Doctrine and sin ,VPW and GSC:
All sin is broken fellowship.
There are no Big or little sins.
So sexually abusing young women in your ministry is no different than being bitter and angry--all are sin, all are broken fellowship.
The difference--VPW didn't condemn himself and got back in fellowship, so all is good.
But GSC posters are bitter and angry all the time, so they have broken fellowship all the time.
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WhiteDove
Well Rascal my point was not so much in reference to you specifically it's a widespread problem and not limited to your post. Although, you have been a voice often for just accepting everything posted at face value perhaps you can understand why that is not a logical choice now. Maybe not. I think it's important that we speak honestly and accurately and while we all face challenges sometimes in conveying our points in cyber land, sometimes obvious issues do play a part in poster credibility as well. While our nature may be to just accept everything as truth because we may like someone, that ends up often in those situations as a poor choice.
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rascal
Yeah Bramble, it makes about that much sense to me too. You have people getting far more angry, and offended with the people that TALK about what vpw and his good old boys did than focusing on the men whom actually participated and embraced the evil....
Aw come on Dove, I don`t believe for one miniute that you are really interested in truth or credibility.....It appears to me that you just can`t bear to have people talking about what these guys did....Is it because of what the evidence of their lives point to?? Do the conclusions make you uncomfortable?? Is that what drives your vendetta to shut people up?? Is it because you don`t want to be wrong about what you committed so much time or effort into?? Is it ego??? Only you can answere these questions for yourself.
Please, and I really mean this with no malice or bitterness or anger...please just get honest with yourself first friend, cast the beam out of your own eye before you try to remove anybody elses splinter er credibility issues.
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oldiesman
DWBH,
I thought it was relevant by your own critique. Here you criticise Clapp for choosing to stand with twi with full knowledge of all the sins committed, when it appears you yourself chose to do the same. The thing that struck me most about your 37-page letter to the Trustees in February of 1987 was the vagueness of it all. NOTHING SPECIFIC was mentioned about adultery, fornication, plagiarism, rape, alcoholism, etc. And this was some 2-3 years after you knew about what was going on.
If you were fighting in the midst against all the sins that hurt folks and ruined the ministry, what better way to reprove and correct with SPECIFICS rather than vague generalities about how the Trustees needed to change? On top of that, continual praises and quotations of Dr. Wierwille's teachings. It doesn't matter who wrote what parts of that letter. You signed it. And so my feeling is, if you're going to criticize Clapp for not standing up against the Kool Aid, perhaps you should consider your own actions at the time.
I PM'd DWBH years ago under his former GS name, asking several questions and requesting a dialogue, but never got a response. I again PM most recently and didn't get a response. I would LOVE to talk with DWBH but it's kind of hard to talk with someone who won't talk back.
Sue Pierce's name was not on the letter that I have. I received this letter from dmiller a couple of years ago, and as I recall, offered to send it to anyone by PDF if they wanted. The offer still stands, and I wish Paw would put this letter on the GS site for all to see it and make their own judgement about it.
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Ham
I dunno. Just because I like someone, doesn't mean I accept everything they say as truth.
Then again, my motto isn't exactly "trust no one" either..
when I here accounts of ladies being "counselled" in the old days with something like "just get over it and get laid"..
I tend to find their claims to be credible. Why? I've seen and heard this kinda thing at least twice. And that was only because the damned limb leader was reckless at the time. Screaming obscenities, and loud enough to heardthrough two solid doors..
so, yeah.. I find a similar account VERY credible.
Or people relating living in a rather vulnerable circumstance, being screamed at they are a disgrace to the word, to God himself and the "ministry".. to pack their .... and IMMEDIATELY leave..
yeah, I find it credible.
Something VERY similar to this happened to me..
and in a very similar circumstance.
Or stories from women about physical and verbal abuse from the then spouse, sanctioned by "leaders" at the LIMB level and up..
I find it VERY credible. Why?
I saw it happen, PERSONALLY.
For these old "leaders".. life must be terrifying. It's like the night of the living dead. No matter how many times they beat the old corpses with a shovel, i.e., "just get over it and forgive like Jaysuss".. they keep coming back, to haunt them, again, and again, and again..
I can understand them. Don't exactly feel much pity for them though..
:)
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likeaneagle
I want to read this letter,Paw please post!
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pond
God changed the rules. Jesus Christ lived and taught about the time and rules he lived within.
he died and was Raised to sit with God and God rewarded HIm with the new Rules we live in currently, it is grace and all who believe upon Jesus and believe Roman 10:9 ,10 will be saved. Permantly.
Is it fun to beat people up with the law rules and what Jesus said to them in the teachings He gave?
things changed radicaly because he loved us so very much.. God changed the ruless big time for His love for Him and us.
but of course some who want to spew about other and their sins may never need the grace mankind lives within. hmm if you do not need the grace God granted us BECAUSE of Jesus christ you wont need Jesus christ and all He accomplished for us, and that is the ONLY manner anyone will see eternal life NOW in this time of grace.
but if you do not need the grace that is ok you do not need it or Jesus Christ , Maybe your the one who never really Knew him.
God still gave it to us all. the rules changed He (jesus christ) made it possible for us to now KNOW him , before as he was walking the earth as a man they couldnt KNOW Him they can not believe He was raised from the dead , HEWAS NOT DEAD.
God changed the rules. Jesus Christ lived and taught about the time and rules he lived within.
he died and was Raised to sit with God and God rewarded HIm with the new Rules we live in currently, it is grace and all who believe upon Jesus and believe Roman 10:9 ,10 will be saved. Permantly.
Is it fun to beat people up with the law rules and what Jesus said to them in the teachings He gave?
things changed radicaly because he loved us so very much.. God changed the ruless big time for His love for Him and us.
but of course some who want to spew about other and their sins may never need the grace mankind lives within. hmm if you do not need the grace God granted us BECAUSE of Jesus christ you wont need Jesus christ and all He accomplished for us, and that is the ONLY manner anyone will see eternal life NOW in this time of grace.
but if you do not need the grace that is ok you do not need it or Jesus Christ , Maybe your the one who never really Knew him.
God still gave it to us all. the rules changed He (jesus christ) made it possible for us to now KNOW him , before as he was walking the earth as a man they couldnt KNOW Him they can not believe He was raised from the dead , HEWAS NOT DEAD.
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Ham
In a sense, I think they were "believing for failure".
They've sown and inherited a field full of weeds and tares..
I don't know if anybody else noticed, but weeds are pretty agressive..
better get busy fella..
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WhiteDove
You see, that's just it I have never said people could not talk about whatever they wanted to. I have taken exception when it was not factual. There in lies the problem ,there is often no evidence as you said to point to, just opinion, likewise no conclusions because there is nothing to base a conclusion on unless of course you just say I believe it without any evidence. Your post is an example of why that is not a logical choice.
.As I stated my drive is for truth, not made up information, dishonest information, non factual information. When people can't even be honest about their own emotions how can one trust them to be honest about weightier matters? I have no desire to shut people up . That's the difference I've observed between what some would call Wierwille worshipers and those who have issues with the Way, I often see those seen as pro Way post give and take on issues, most acknowledge that there were valid cases of wrong done, on the other side it is rare to see the same give and take, Even at the sake of being dishonest about ones own emotions they will post whatever is necessary for the cause of only seeing bad. Sorry but to me it is a red flag when someone will be dishonest about how they feel, their words on a face value basis are suspect.
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Ham
I dunno.
I have this little movie playing in my head..
Some clueless hell, fire and brimstone preacher out in his field of weeds.. with a shovel. Trying to beat them down with the shovel.
All the while invoking and swearing..
"Down in da name of Jaysus.. down. Down I say.."
I think it's gonna take just a tad more effort than that..
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Ham
Maybe it means something to somebody here.. who knows..
then again, I often have a pretty vivid imagination
and if beating the weeds with the shovel fails, send in the lawyers wearing dark glasses and trenchcoats, to take a "deposition".
"Now Mahhhm, how did you FEEL when you as you reputedly claim the greasy mogster laid his *holy hands* on you?"
"well, I was confused.."
"and?"
"well, I was a little angry.."
"Mahhhm.. make up your mind. First you say you were confused, then you say you were angry. Which was it?"
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T-Bone
It sounds like you're way ahead of the game already. I think a major weakness "bred" into TWI followers was the tendency to absorb rather than analyze information. It's very subtle – but TWI followers eventually acquire a thing called "learned helplessness." We felt almost duty bound to confer with upper leadership on most things because we doubted our own thinking ability. Most folks relied on upper leadership to do the thinking for them.
After I left TWI and went through a crisis of faith – it was through much prayer and reflection that I adopted a two-pronged approach to figuring out where I went wrong. I am a technician by trade – and have an innate desire to analyze the life out of anything!
Anyway, I began analyzing both the man [vpw] and the doctrines. This is extremely difficult to do for some people – since the average TWI mindset is all-or-nothing-thinking. But that goes against the biblical directive to prove all things.
Something else in regards to critical thinking, I think each person is different in thought patterns and experiences which will have bearing on one's assumptions, perceptions, conclusions, etc. That's why you'll find a wide variety of opinions on vp as well as viewpoints on doctrine.
IMHO, there's an aspect of our thought process that works like a two-way street. Beliefs shape perceptions/experiences and perceptions/experiences shape beliefs. To me, critical thinking is NOT the amazing ability to discover truth or reality. It's a keen awareness of that two-way street – and with a humble attitude analyzing in detail those beliefs, perceptions, and experiences – identifying assumptions, biases, issues, faulty logic, relationships, disparities, inconsistencies, etc. It's like going on a hunt – to find the core elements on a given topic and giving it our best THINKING.
Enjoy the Grease Spot experience…and happy hunting.
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JeffSjo
Thanks T-Bone and so far so good.
When I refer to the best of TWI and the best Of PFAL and the best of Dr. Wierwille its usually refering to what they said and taught about critical thinking in terms of proving things. These things I am bound to be thankful for no matter how badly they were botched as things developed in TWI. I do not let the mistakes erase what stands the test of time for me.
When I hear people who were hurt very badly or know people who were hurt very badly I listen with compassion and just want them to be settled. It's not an easy thing to come to terms with when in compassion you feel someone's pain.
I believe that evil things have been being done in the Lord's name since the first century and before. It's not hard to make a list either. A lot of it was much worse that TWI. Thousands of people have been LITERALLY tortured and killed in his name "supposedly in his name that is."
When I believe that the watchmen didn't get the job done and then here Don'tWorreyBeHappy share it gives me pause to reconsider that opinion. I believe God himself allways gives his people chances to turn and of course the love of God was working even though things went bad.
When I here people share that the rules have changed and that the focus on sin is wrong, or that remembering sin proves bitterness i think of many scriptures in the epistles that plainly make the case for the consequences of sin on a ministry or anyone else. John said he'd remember Diotrephes words and actions for instance. With all the sins written of in the book of acts for our learning nearly 2000 years ago, why would anyone put on blinders today, I mean come on, Simon the sorcerer, Annanias and Saphira, Herod not giving God the Glory, etc. etc.
GRACE AND MERCEY DO NOT REPLACE TRUTH AND HONESTY. In the big picture they go together. Mercy requires sin first, but then so does judgement. It's God's decision. In general I desire mercy when I sin, but it's God's call. For some things Paul warns the Lord will simply AVENGE, this thought scares me. He's a lot lot lot bigger than any of us, even if in his Grace he's willing to call us bretheren.
If you want to talk about grace and mercy covering it because the rules have changed then you must line it up with the scriptures concerning judgement in the very same epistles written during the time when you claim the rules have changed in order for me to give you any credibility at all.
(addeed in editing)
Just another little point here. Since so many evil things have been done in His name throughout history I must conclude that these things need to happen for the scriptures to be true. HE'LL make it o.k. in the end, just like the scriptures have fortold too.
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rascal
Whatever you have to tell yourself to make your behavior ok Dove. To me your accusations in order to allow yourself to dismiss the content of ones posts are like straining at gnats.
I personally, will never understand not being deeply offended by what these guys did....even more so...the defending and making excuses for their sadistic cruelty.
It`s like something internally is broken, and to me a symptom of the contamination from contact with twi. We were taught bible scriptures and then how to use them deceitfully. We aquired knowledge, and then how to use it as a weapon. We were introduced to God in name, and then placed under men claiming their status as HIS leaders to be enslaved by them.
I see the people who never got away from the twi mindset, the ones whom just continued to hang around people who think, speak, act the same way they all did in twi....STILL trying to employ the same methods today....utilize scriptures deceitfully and dishonestly in order to try to bully people into the behavior we desire....namely shut the heck up so nobody knows what perverts we served in a sham of a ministry....oh you need to shut up cause your lying...doesn`t matter how many corroborating stories there are....oh...you just need to stop being a gossiper, or back biter....doesn`t matter that it isn`t gossip OR back biting if it is true.....you are just being overly sensative and need to just stop whining and get over it....oh well I guess it might have happened...but you really deserved it anyway because you should have known better....doesn`t matter if you were young and naieve, trusting a minister to behave with integrity, never dreaming that they were trying to get in your pants, that they would employ any means of manipulation, even down to drugging to achieve their aims...finally to be culminated with....oh you just need to forgive these poor fellows and move on.....don`t be such a meanie pants.....it`s for your own good...(yeah like I believe for one instant anything twi adherents do is for anybody elses good)
ALL manipulations I see employed here, ALL complete with scriptural back up...ALL with the aim to shut people up.In my opinion, it is deceitful and a dishonest application of scripture.
TWI indoctrination at it`s finest.
Honestly, and I say this with all the sincerity in my heart. I believe that it takes getting away from twi doctrine....interacting with genuine christians, men and women who are of the spirit to recognize the depravity of twi.
Too bad you aren`t willing to apply the same standard demanding proof, thirst for accuracy and accountability to the leaders on twi who ravaged and destroyed people by the thousands.
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JeffSjo
I like you Rascal :)
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J0nny Ling0
What did DWBH share here? Who is she anyway?
And, I would like to go on record that I have no problem that people here say what they know about what the "MOGs" did. (That term just flat cracks me up!) What I do resent is that some people here seem intent on proving that there was absolutely nothing good at all in The Way at any time ever, and that all who were involved were deceived mindless robots, and that God had nothing to do with it, and that any and all of the time spent there was a complete waste of a Life.
And for the record, I do not fellowship with any group these days, Splinter, Church, Synagogue, or Mosque. But I am very thankful for many many things I learned in The Way and in The Way Corps and keep those good things with me. I learned to work honestly and hard as in the work ethic, I learned public speaking which I enjoy, I learned to write and was inspired to do so when I wrote my research paper (which was really lousy and stupid too-but it did inspire me to continue in writing), and I learned a lot about the Bible. And of course I met within The Way some of the greatest people on the Planet. And some of the funniest too! Oh the times we had in Alaska when certain leaders would come up to teach the Bible! It was an outright blast!
But, when mentioning these things in the past here, I was told by certain people that I was just "sophomoric" and having a spirited good time at the expense and destruction of others' lives, blah blah blah. Or that "those things that I learned could have been learned anywhere". Now, that last statement is true in a large way. BUT, I didn't learn them "anywhere". I learned them in The Way. I had gotten on my knees one time and prayed to God to please send a Christian person to me to tell me out Jesus Christ. And, the very NEXT DAY, a sweet gal from New York, a WOW, came to work on my restaurant boat as a cocktail waitress. And, as I said before, she opened God's Word to me. Her very presence was witness enough for me. I prayed, He answered. So what was that, a cruel joke on an 18 year old kid by the Lord God Almighty? I will never be convinced that it was, and I will never be convinced that I wasted my youth like some here have declared.
It is my opinion from what I have seen and when I was involved, that VP started out good, went way bad and hurt a good number of people. This is terrible. It is a travesty. But I believe (getting back to the thread here) that it is in the best interest to forgive those who have trespassed against us which enables we humans to let go of the anger and bitterness. To forgive is not to "offer a pass" to the offender. To forgive seems that it mostly offers relief for the one trespassed against, not relief for the trespassER. God Almighty will deal with the trespassER. That's His job, not ours. If the TrespassERS are alive, then sure, expose them. If they are dead, and your incident with them is long since over with, then forgive and try to fuggedaboudit...
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rascal
Hey glad that you guys had a good time ....really! Why on earth let the spector of your brothers and sisters being sacrificed on the alter to serve the mog`s special appetites...the innocents whom were required to sate the mogs lusts....diminish ones personal memories?
I mean REALLY...who the heck cares about those who were tormented and even died as long as a few of us learned a bit, and aquired some materials for a story or two?
Party on dude, For goodness sakes...please don`t let the whiners or complainers besmirch the memories of those fun times.
As far as the topic of this thread??
Forgive all you want friend, but don`t pretend for an instant that circular twi reasoning ...ie leaving out half of the scriptures regarding the subject, in anyway makes you an authority on when and why anyone ELSE is required by God to forgive.
Untill one analyzes all of the information on forgivness, it truly is nothing more than personal opinion.
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rascal
I like you too Jeff :)
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rascal
You know Jonny, your post has got me to really thinking. It has been years since I expressed my dismay at your attitude. It really must eat at you like a canker, I mean every chance you get, you bring up how mean old rascal crapped on your fun memories.
When, I posted that one time, it was never intended to be an insult, but an attempt to try to get you to understand how hurtful it could possible be to read all of those charming little adventures knowing that while Jonny was having a great time, a sister was being raped, a child was being abused, someone was being ostracized from family friends and God`s ministry and protection for displeasing a mog.
The people who`s very worst memories, who`s most horrific nightmares, in short, some of the most painful moments suffered, the deepest shame and humiliation suffered in this life during the same time period, and under the same mogs whom you are sharing these amusing little antidotes about...Darn it, it is really hard to read, thinking about what was happening to one personally in twi whilst you frolicked in the trout stream.
You know? That is ok, you didn`t get it. My bad, but...HONESTLY now...don`t you think it is about time (according to your reasoning) that you forgave me? :)
Will you forgive me even if I don`t apologize? If I never repent? What IF, I never deign to even ask? Will you personally be willing to forgive if I refuse to ever see or acknowledge that I did anything wrong?? If I continue to be a contentious arse for the next two years??? What if I tell you to quit being a perpetually whining little victim, and to shut the heck up????
Will you, and can you forgive me and never mention it again?? It`s been a couple of years now, are you going to still be mad in 5..in 10? Do you personally consider yourself bitter yet?
Honestly now....isn`t that exactly what you are advocating and requiring of others here whom endured a whole lot more than a lack of appreciation for your stories about good times enjoyed in twi?
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