I certainly do believe this and lack evidence to the contrary. I've seen this over and over in twi and elsewhere in life. One strong example from history, King Solomon, was a holy man of God reputed to be the wisest man in the world. Yet he also was an idolator, baby killer and sex addict.
Oh, I see your point. vpCLAIMEDGod taught him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century....Once we overlook his proficiency at plagiarism and delusions of grandeur – I can see how TWI folks assumed he was a "holy man of God" too.
and because he CLAIMED that God spoke to him, we are to over look every bit of evidence to the contrary, to ignore every warning given scripturally, and discard every stick given to measure a persons character, morality and spiritual nature given in the bible.
For the benefit of our viewers at home, we've shipped in two versions of T-Bone - they will respond to Rascal according to their beliefs from different time frames. The first is during his TWI daze. The second response is after he left.
and because he CLAIMED that God spoke to him, we are to over look every bit of evidence to the contrary, to ignore every warning given scripturally, and discard every stick given to measure a persons character, morality and spiritual nature given in the bible.
TWI T-Bone: Obviously you're being deceived by devil spirits. Remember the integrity of the Word is always at stake.
and because he CLAIMED that God spoke to him, we are to over look every bit of evidence to the contrary, to ignore every warning given scripturally, and discard every stick given to measure a persons character, morality and spiritual nature given in the bible.
Grease Spot T-Bone: Yeah! Right on, sister!!!!!
...and now a word from one of my former sponsors: Does this mean all those Corps Night notes you sent me are kaka too?
I do believe that the ministry Dr. Wierwille was given and entrusted with was of God despite his sins. I see that from the fruit. I can't say whether he was a holy man of God in the biblical sense ... only God knows, but many folks were blessed and thankful to be a part of twi at one point.
Sometimes God gives great forgiveness and mercy for greater causes. Another character from history, Saul of Tarsus, was on the road to Damascus to imprison and murder more and more Christians. Think about how family members who Saul abused were grieved and hurt due to Saul's works of the flesh. He already consented to Stephens death. Yet, despite Sauls sins, God saw fit to work with Saul to bring great spiritual revelations to the church.
Jesus appeared to and God forgave Saul, a man of the flesh, before he repented. God intrusted a man of the flesh with spiritual things. This makes me think that God's grace and mercy is so much bigger than mens sins.
BTW Stephen asked God not to charge his murderers (who didn't ask for repentence first) for their crime.
...Another character from history, Saul of Tarsus, was on the road to Damascus to imprison and murder more and more Christians. Think about how family members who Saul abused were grieved and hurt due to Saul's works of the flesh. He already consented to Stephens death. Yet, despite Sauls sins, God saw fit to work with Saul to bring great spiritual revelations to the church.
Jesus appeared to and God forgave Saul, a man of the flesh, before he repented. God intrusted a man of the flesh with spiritual things. This makes me think that God's grace and mercy is so much bigger than mens sins....
You know, that's an interesting idea…Imagine if the Lord Jesus actually appeared to vp like He did to Saul of Tarsus. An opportune moment would have been in the Motor Coach while vp was preying on some woman. Jesus: "vp, why are you molesting Me."
[...edited for television...viewer discretion is advised...]
makes me wonder.. why is it these "great men o gawd" just HAVE to be scoundrels, or murderers, or extortioners, or blasphemers, or persecutors, or sexual abusers of one form or another, or.. just fill in the blank.. find a sin, and very likely you'll find a manogawd to fill it..
it's almost a "requirement"..
maybe they don't know how to do anything different..
maybe humanity is better off.. just put them in a little ivory palace, feed them.. better than them roaming free..
Oldies.. I'll tell you where your "logic" is leading me.
If God loved so much as to send one or more of these kind of scumbags to bring us the truth..
oldies, again you are calling wierwilles *works* ...*fruit* ...and assuming because you personally enjoyed some blessings...that God had a part of it...shrug
Not so, because that very same man, the same man was responsible for raping your sisters and destroying your brothers lives. His ministry, his doctrines, his leaders that HE trained are personally responsible for death and carnage.
If God was a part of it that means he was a part of the destruction of one of his precious lambs. If God led you, then he led those of us who were used and when our usefulness exhausted, tossed out like so much garbage, crumpled and broken.
Scripturally that just doesn`t add up. It is an insult to God to claim that he had any part of a person or ministry that would do that to a single one of his precious lambs.
For the benefit of our viewers at home, we've shipped in two versions of T-Bone - they will respond to Rascal according to their beliefs from different time frames. The first is during his TWI daze. The second response is after he left.
TWI T-Bone: Obviously you're being deceived by devil spirits. Remember the integrity of the Word is always at stake.
The twi Rascal remembers and quivers in fear at having allowed the devil spirits access to her mind, and humbly thanks the twi TBone for helping her to get her priorities straight once again :)
Grease Spot T-Bone: Yeah! Right on, sister!!!!!
The Greasespot Rascal grins at the Greasespot TBone in agreement and thankfulness for God`s gentle goodness in deliverance from the previous bondage.
Oldies.. I'll tell you where your "logic" is leading me.
If God loved so much as to send one or more of these kind of scumbags to bring us the truth..
maybe he doesn't love like you think he does..
Woah Ham, THAT is a sobering thought.
I wouldn`t WANT a God whom would call one person ta ministry to be blessed by a man and yet another to be raped or die at the hands of this man and his ministry...
That is a shameful thing to say about God, one whom has been called the shepherd whom would leave the flock of 99 in search of the one missing and in trouble.
I'm just going to listen for now. Everyone seems to be playing nice.
(added in editing)
O.K. everyone, I can't stay out of it completely. Right now I can't think of a better biblical comparison than Solomon. God Talked to Solomon, Solomon later did scummy things.
I believe that it's the truth that no scummy works are of the spirit, and that no man "doing" the scummy things can be said to be of the spirit, even if he does have the spirit.
I'm not quick to judge any man in "entirety" because only the Lord knows the whole picture. But scummy works are fleshy and nasty, not spiritual.
In Romans ch7 it spells out the conflict between flesh and spirit that the apostle Paul himself dealt with, he did it in first person, no finger pointing in that. I can relate, if by grace I'm capable of good, I'm also capable of sin.
If the Lord hadn't promised to burn up the ugly, none of us would be left with anything. our own faults would pollute everything.
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU'RE ALL MAKING GOOD POINTS, I'M STILL CONSIDERING THE MATTER.
You know Jeff, I just feel like it is such blasphemy for these guys to claim that God would call my sister to a ministry to be raped by the leaders.... To say that God would call my brother to die from following instructions from these ministers......that God would call people to him and place them under the spiritual guidance of those whom would see their children physically and sexually abused... families destroyed...beyond any ability to fix.
Yet, isn`t that exactly what people are saying when they say old God called people to vp`s ministry??
No I didn`t see ALL of these things personally. My experiences, as unpleasant as they were, pale in comparisson to what others here have endured at vp`a hands and under the influence of his ministry.
To lay these things heinous cruel actions at God`s feet, to me is deeply offensive.
You might think that I'm nucking futs, but I believe God called me to a ministry that did everything in their ability to break my life and my heart. At least I'm consistent.
I read the bible and I see a lot of evil things done, and a lot of evil things prophecied about by the apostle Paul as long ago as the first century in the epistles too.
If I didn't believe that the Lord would bring true justice some day, I'd already be dead I think.
(Added in editing)
I'm so sorry about your family Rascal, I can't say it enough it seems.
Stealing, killing, and destroying is easy to read and real hard to see up close.
In everything you share about it seems that there is leadership that is accountable. I believe the Lord will hold them accountable. Paul seemed to think it was a big deal that there was no blood on his hands, it won't go well for those with blood on their hands. It won't matter how well they cover it up right now either; the Lord will uncover, expose and hold accountable.
...Right now I can't think of a better biblical comparison than Solomon. God Talked to Solomon, Solomon later did scummy things....
That's the assumption my post # 177 was addressing. TWI followers accepted as gospel truth vp's claim that God talked to him. And it was reinforced every time vp would pause for effect while teaching the Corps or an Advanced Class – sometimes mid-sentence and say Father says shut up Wierwille. If you haven't read it already, you ought to check out Word Wolf's thread The Way: Living in Wonderland
IMHO, a better biblical comparison with vp would be the Pharisees and Scribes – hypocrites who were often at the receiving end of Jesus' most scathing rebukes, see Matthew 23:1-39 and Luke 11:37-54.
If God gave Dr. Wierwille what amounts to a conditional promise, then God will judge. I know throughout the years that it's been misused, but promising to teach him the Word like it hasn't been known since the 1st century.... if he'd teach..... is a conditional promise. It never meant that everything would always be good, nor did I ever hear it presented that PFAL was the fulfillment of that promise. I just always assumed it was understood that it was to be a work in progress and that only God would be in charge of its success or failure.
I believe all of you that in the later years it was missrepresented, missused, and missapplied to everyone's harm. I know a lot of you disagree, but even with the terrible results, it wouldn't be the first time people have completely botched a conditional promise from God.
If God didn't give Dr. Wiewille the conditional promise, then there is still so much good in the doctrine for me that I have to give it some credit for the simple fact that there were things taught that I believe to be true.
I REALLY DON'T JUDGE IT ANY DIFFERENTLY THAN ANY OTHER TIME SOMEONE SAYS GOD TALKED TO THEM.
(ADDED IN EDITING)
I haven't read that T-Bone, I'll go do that now.
P.S. O.K., I've started reading, but it's a lot. I'll keep going. It'll take more time than I have today.
Jeff, thank you for your compassion.....but I need to be clear with you. When I speak of brothers and sisters in the context of twi, I am speaking of brothers and sisters in Christ, my spiritual family. My friends in twi, the posters here that have shared their stories. I know people that all of the above things mentioned happened...but they were not my flesh and blood physical family...not that it makes the crimes any less heinous....I just don`t want you to think that I am over exaggerating or lying.
Another thing, I certainly don`t think you are nuts. I just think that we were ALL decieved by false prophets, by wolves in sheeps clothing....ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour.
I think that they HAD to look good, they as wolves had to disguise themselves as one of the sheep in order to get close enough to the flock to attack.....they had to appear spiritual in order to fool us into serving them. Proverbs talks about in vain is the snare set in sight of the prey.
I think that rather than bring us closer to God, they lured us away...that they so confused us with all of the knowledge seeking and aquired arrogance and busy work, that in time we couldn`t even HEAR the voice of God any more.
I know, I seem bitter, implacable, angry....I AM...I am so offended that these things happened to innocents, that these atrocities were forced upon us in God`s name.... furious that the bible was used as a weapon to enforce evil ... I am so angry that I cannot read the bible or listen to a sermon with out getting ....ed at how those words that were to be so healing ended up enslaving and hurting...grrrrr
In the end I have to be really really ....ED at a God who would call people to a ministry of perverts and criminals ...to be used and destroyed ...or look at the evidence and decide if these guys were merely masquerading as ministers...false prophets that would draw people away from God....
It is my belief that God and scriptures were merely a tool that these men used to sate their lusts and fill their bellies. I have no respect for that.
Jeff, please don`t be angry with me for my opinions either. I detect in your posts, the compassion of a genuine Christian. When folks are operating the 2 great commandments, I think they can vehemently disagree with each other on issues and still have the deepest respect for one another as Christian brothers and sisters.
Yeah they taught us some bible...but they taught us to ignore a whole lot more.
How could we ever trust a God that would lead us into a group like twi :(
O.K., I get it now about the brothers and sisters, thanks for clearing that up for me.
When I was in the middle of a different type of perverting the truth in that small splinter group I talk about, It was everything I could handle to fight for the scriptures to be applied to the situations that came up in the span of years. The only thing I can say for sure about being correct is that my conscience is clear, I dare not boast about being right, but I always am willing to share so others can judge for themselves.
Coming from my own experience, I have no trouble imagining TWI starting well and then over time being corrupt. Between sin being something that anyone can fall into and biblical cowardace, it eventually becomes actively seeking to destroy those who speak from a good heart and a clear conscience. Covering up the sin mixed with becoming experts at the art of managing public perception can fool anyone.
In my life it is very clear that it started good and became bad. (IN the splinter group) I have no problem thinking the same of TWI, but I'm still looking at it.
No Rascal, I'm not mad at you. I'm concerned about the P----d at God part of what's on your heart, but I"ve been there too.
(added in editing)
Gotta go now, but before I go for the day just a couple of things.
In my little splinter group I was around from the beginning. In TWI I was not around from the beginning. It could be a mistake to assume it went down the same way without all the facts. But it's not hard for me to think it could have went down the same way, starting good and turning bad. There is an awful lot of that in the bible. It's a common pattern for men.
Right now What I think is that it started good and turned out bad.
Well, it is an either or with me Jeff. God was either behind vp, or vp was a deciever.
I had my spiritual crisis, and come out of the other side. I gave God the finger when my life shattered and fell apart and told him that Number one, I didn`t believe he existed, and number two...IF per chance he did....to stay the hell away from me ....that EVERYTHING that I had ever been taught about him was a lie.
Kind of funny looking back at it now...long story short... I remember that calm quiet voice...and could almost feel a dig in the ribs....and this gentle laughter saying...well GOOD...now that we have THAT established, are you ready to start all over again at square one ....
I got home that evening and had some insane things happen, things that were humorous but in which there could be no doubt that God was there, that the crazy events were orchestrated by him, and tthat we were to begin all over again.
We started with deciding if he was there....and then because I was adamant about never trusting anyone ever again to teach me what was truly of God.....I was asked if I could handle *Love God and love my neighbor* as a starting place.
Trust me Jeff, I know and acknowledge that God is very very good. I just don`t believe that he had anything to do with twi.
VPW DOES however seem to fit the bill of a false prophet....his fruit shows he was of the flesh.....a liar, a pharacee that would use God and the scriptures and the authority as a minister to steal fraom and destroy God`s people.
He was a sneak, a thief, and deceiver, and a destroyer of souls. His life and his ministry left a swath of destruction through peoples lives and to me bear ample evidence as to whom he worked for.
As far as splinter groups. I just feel strongly that if they have built their foundations on the doctrines learned from a man of the flesh...that they have faulty foundations built on shifting sands....they can patch and repair and whitwash to hide the flaws...but I believe that eventually the foundation(as with any) that when the pressure is applied, when the storms arrive...that they will crumble and fail...and that everything built on top of them will be destroyed.
Far better to raise the building to the ground and start fresh on a solid rock, with new materials that are manufactured to code.
I really do have to go, but maybe there'd be some comfort for us both if we'd agree together that the Lord will someday make the hidden things plain to see. By hidden things I mean what really went on inside peoples' hearts.
Yeah Jeff, I have always believed that TWI started out with good intentions, God's intentions, but then went bad. That VPW got sucked into the pleasures of sin at the expense of innocent people. You see, I had prayed on my knees one night for God to send a Christian to me to teach me what I needed to know. And the very next morning, God sent a WOW Ambassador, a girl, who glowed with the love of God who then, on the spot opened up the book of Ephesians to me and taught me a bunch about Jesus Christ, many of our son ship rights and etc. An undeniable answer to prayer! . So, if God saw fit to introduce me to The Way Ministry and PFAL, then it was good enough for me too. I know things went bad, but I too believe that things started out "good". Even better than good, but went bad... :)
hi all you greasespotters!.......it is interesting to note, that a few posters on this thread do not address any of the questions raised in my last post on this thread other than those they themselves infer from the last paragraph of that post! why do some folks become so alarmed and disturbed at the appearance of any post which accurately describes or recounts vic's ministry, and/or his extracurricular activities as our "father in the word'??......i have observed less passionate appeals for mercy for convicted murderers on death row than some of the emotionally charged pleas for us to "forgive" vic posted here!.....and, yes!..........this comparison is just as valid as the ones made here that we are somehow "bound by scripture" to forgive vic just like jesus christ forgave those who "know not what they do" during his crucifixion!
Sweet Pea..............who's in charge of "cutting a break"?..........no one "cut me a break" when i resigned from twi in the fall of 1986........at that time, much of the information about vic, lcm, and their sexual and fiduciary misconduct was available to clapp and the rest of twi's leaders......and, much, much more has been brought to light in the 22 years since!......yet, clapp chose to stand with and for twi during the years following POP through march of 1989........during those years, clapp chose to ignore or deny the facts brought to light concerning vic, the doofus from okie, and twi doctrines and practices........why??........that's almost 3 years of faithful support until the "pledge of allegiance letter" of march,1989 sent out by king okie and twi!.......why, in 1989, did clapp pledge his loyalty to the doofus from okie and twi despite the ever-growing volume of facts documenting lcm's gross misconduct and moral terpitude??.........this is a simple question, not an accusation!.......how was it that clapp was able to become martindale's "biblical research" confidant/advisor during the time in twi which produced such twisted, perverted doctrines and practices as the infamous "homo purge", absolutely "no debt", and the oh so godly "mark and avoid" fiascos?..........how could clapp support, reconcile and promote such utter perversions of christianity with the christian scriptures??....how was he able to faithfully and loyally carry out orders from martindale, or moynihan, and others, with a "clean conscience" during those years of 1989 through 1997?............when clapp finally left twi and ran to cff, what were the reasons/issues which prompted his departure after "going along" with king okie and da boyz in da hoods since pledging his allegiance to them in 1989?
you said, "these guys only want to continue in the ministry as their vocation without going the mainstream religion route that some of our other twi people have done. i have more respect for these guys than the other ex-Wayy Corps who are teaching crap just to make a buck."......really??...........i sure don't!........what "ministry" do they seek to "continue in" as their "vocation"?........what gives them this "vocation", or the right to continue in it without question?.......has there been any critical or objective examination of the thinking that created the problems of "the ministry" that clapp quit, and yet wants to "continue in"?........or, are they just re-packaging vic's products and re-marketing them to twi refugees?.........talk about "teaching crap just to make a buck"!...........you wrote, "cut them a break like you've been cut also"........did i miss something here?.........who "cut me a break"?..........when i left twi, in 1986, i did my best to speak the truth and facts about what was going on "behind the scenes " at twi..........i sought out those to whom i felt i owed any apologies, asked their forgiveness, and tried to hold twi's "feet to the fire" for a year and a half.........i re-examined everything vic taught and plagiarized so as not to repeat the same twisted thinking that hooked me in twi, brought twi down, and harmed so many human beings.........i felt then, and still do now, that this was my moral and christian responsibilty to god and his children........clapp, cff, and the other offshoots of twi want to "continue in the ministry" of vic and twi without taking any "time off" for objective examination of the thinking and doctrines of either!.....is that "cutting them a break"?..............when i left twi, i went back to school, changed "vocations", learned a new profession, and have been working full-time in the real world for the last 20 years.........something hundreds of other ex-way corps grads have done during those same 20 years!........i'm more than willing to cut clapp and the rest the same "break"............but, for some reason, they can't "cut it"........hence, my questions to them all as raised in the other paragraphs of my last post here besides just the last one!
and oldiesman becomes indignant at another poster when he states, "you're telling me what *i* saw?".........yet, on this very same thread, he presumes to tell the greasespot readers what my "outlook" on vic was when i resigned from twi 22 years ago!........how can he do that?......is he god almighty?........i can assure you all that oldiesman has NEVER talked with me regarding what my "outlook of dr. wierwille" was 22 years ago then, or at any time since!......his post is rife with inaccuracies and misinformation.......disinformation too!..........i resigned from twi in the late fall of 1986, and "announced" my resignation right then and there, not in some letter written months after the fact!.........sue pierce was also a signatory to that letter........why is that fact omitted?.....both sue pierce and robert belt resigned from twi in 1986, well before that letter was written.......they did not "announce " their resignations in that letter either!........tom reahard was still a "leader" in twi when that letter was written......he did not announce his resignation in that letter either..........john and pat lynn were both full-time employees of twi as limb coordinators when that letter was written.......they never resigned from twi.......they were fired by howard allen on april 1,1987, one of the "rersults" for them for participating in the writing of that letter!
now oldiesman is going to tell you all how and why that letter was written, 21 years later, as if he was there!......he does not know who wrote what parts of that letter.....he never participated in any of the deliberations or discussions surrounding its writing......and, he has no inkling of an idea of the what, why, where, when and how of its composition!........yet, he is somehow able to interperet for you all, the nuances of that letter which he has already inaccurately described, and totally misinformed you about!.......and, somehow, this letter of 21 years ago is relevant to my post about clapp and cff??.........oldiesman is completely ignorant about how and why that letter was written, let alone what the "outlook of dr.wierwille" was in the minds of those who wrote it!.........and, once again, what is that letter's relevance to my post??
in conclusion, i'd like to quote my friend al one more time, "whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods"...........thanks to you posters on this thread who keep those "gods" laughing!.........................peace.
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T-Bone
Oh, I see your point. vp CLAIMED God taught him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century....Once we overlook his proficiency at plagiarism and delusions of grandeur – I can see how TWI folks assumed he was a "holy man of God" too.
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rascal
and because he CLAIMED that God spoke to him, we are to over look every bit of evidence to the contrary, to ignore every warning given scripturally, and discard every stick given to measure a persons character, morality and spiritual nature given in the bible.
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T-Bone
For the benefit of our viewers at home, we've shipped in two versions of T-Bone - they will respond to Rascal according to their beliefs from different time frames. The first is during his TWI daze. The second response is after he left.
TWI T-Bone: Obviously you're being deceived by devil spirits. Remember the integrity of the Word is always at stake.
Grease Spot T-Bone: Yeah! Right on, sister!!!!!
...and now a word from one of my former sponsors: Does this mean all those Corps Night notes you sent me are kaka too?
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Ham
It's only a matter of time. Look what they did to the wife of the first pres..
I wonder how "bitter" and "unforgiving" she's gonna be..
EVERYBODY is "expendable" at der vey.
even those who are it's backbone.. the VOLUNTEERS.
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oldiesman
I do believe that the ministry Dr. Wierwille was given and entrusted with was of God despite his sins. I see that from the fruit. I can't say whether he was a holy man of God in the biblical sense ... only God knows, but many folks were blessed and thankful to be a part of twi at one point.
Sometimes God gives great forgiveness and mercy for greater causes. Another character from history, Saul of Tarsus, was on the road to Damascus to imprison and murder more and more Christians. Think about how family members who Saul abused were grieved and hurt due to Saul's works of the flesh. He already consented to Stephens death. Yet, despite Sauls sins, God saw fit to work with Saul to bring great spiritual revelations to the church.
Jesus appeared to and God forgave Saul, a man of the flesh, before he repented. God intrusted a man of the flesh with spiritual things. This makes me think that God's grace and mercy is so much bigger than mens sins.
BTW Stephen asked God not to charge his murderers (who didn't ask for repentence first) for their crime.
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T-Bone
You know, that's an interesting idea…Imagine if the Lord Jesus actually appeared to vp like He did to Saul of Tarsus. An opportune moment would have been in the Motor Coach while vp was preying on some woman. Jesus: "vp, why are you molesting Me."
[...edited for television...viewer discretion is advised...]
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Ham
makes me wonder.. why is it these "great men o gawd" just HAVE to be scoundrels, or murderers, or extortioners, or blasphemers, or persecutors, or sexual abusers of one form or another, or.. just fill in the blank.. find a sin, and very likely you'll find a manogawd to fill it..
it's almost a "requirement"..
maybe they don't know how to do anything different..
maybe humanity is better off.. just put them in a little ivory palace, feed them.. better than them roaming free..
Oldies.. I'll tell you where your "logic" is leading me.
If God loved so much as to send one or more of these kind of scumbags to bring us the truth..
maybe he doesn't love like you think he does..
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rascal
oldies, again you are calling wierwilles *works* ...*fruit* ...and assuming because you personally enjoyed some blessings...that God had a part of it...shrug
Not so, because that very same man, the same man was responsible for raping your sisters and destroying your brothers lives. His ministry, his doctrines, his leaders that HE trained are personally responsible for death and carnage.
If God was a part of it that means he was a part of the destruction of one of his precious lambs. If God led you, then he led those of us who were used and when our usefulness exhausted, tossed out like so much garbage, crumpled and broken.
Scripturally that just doesn`t add up. It is an insult to God to claim that he had any part of a person or ministry that would do that to a single one of his precious lambs.
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rascal
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rascal
Woah Ham, THAT is a sobering thought.
I wouldn`t WANT a God whom would call one person ta ministry to be blessed by a man and yet another to be raped or die at the hands of this man and his ministry...
That is a shameful thing to say about God, one whom has been called the shepherd whom would leave the flock of 99 in search of the one missing and in trouble.
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JeffSjo
Hi eveyone.
Dear Rascal,
I'm just going to listen for now. Everyone seems to be playing nice.
(added in editing)
O.K. everyone, I can't stay out of it completely. Right now I can't think of a better biblical comparison than Solomon. God Talked to Solomon, Solomon later did scummy things.
I believe that it's the truth that no scummy works are of the spirit, and that no man "doing" the scummy things can be said to be of the spirit, even if he does have the spirit.
I'm not quick to judge any man in "entirety" because only the Lord knows the whole picture. But scummy works are fleshy and nasty, not spiritual.
In Romans ch7 it spells out the conflict between flesh and spirit that the apostle Paul himself dealt with, he did it in first person, no finger pointing in that. I can relate, if by grace I'm capable of good, I'm also capable of sin.
If the Lord hadn't promised to burn up the ugly, none of us would be left with anything. our own faults would pollute everything.
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU'RE ALL MAKING GOOD POINTS, I'M STILL CONSIDERING THE MATTER.
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Ham
I don't know if some really realize where that logic leads, Rascal.. that somehow gawd uses abusive and dispicable evil men to bless mankind..
it's like.. either you have a god who loves to hate, or a god who hates, to love..
and forever the wheels keep turning around and around.. the backside of reality trying to cover the front..
I don't see how a mind doesn't shrink to a singularity, in a cycle like that..
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JeffSjo
Dear Rascal,
You're talking about hard thing,I know. God's never accountable for sin, but it's something that we all share in to some extent.
I'm just really sorry for the things that you've seen.
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rascal
You know Jeff, I just feel like it is such blasphemy for these guys to claim that God would call my sister to a ministry to be raped by the leaders.... To say that God would call my brother to die from following instructions from these ministers......that God would call people to him and place them under the spiritual guidance of those whom would see their children physically and sexually abused... families destroyed...beyond any ability to fix.
Yet, isn`t that exactly what people are saying when they say old God called people to vp`s ministry??
No I didn`t see ALL of these things personally. My experiences, as unpleasant as they were, pale in comparisson to what others here have endured at vp`a hands and under the influence of his ministry.
To lay these things heinous cruel actions at God`s feet, to me is deeply offensive.
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JeffSjo
Yeah, I get it Rascal.
You might think that I'm nucking futs, but I believe God called me to a ministry that did everything in their ability to break my life and my heart. At least I'm consistent.
I read the bible and I see a lot of evil things done, and a lot of evil things prophecied about by the apostle Paul as long ago as the first century in the epistles too.
If I didn't believe that the Lord would bring true justice some day, I'd already be dead I think.
(Added in editing)
I'm so sorry about your family Rascal, I can't say it enough it seems.
Stealing, killing, and destroying is easy to read and real hard to see up close.
In everything you share about it seems that there is leadership that is accountable. I believe the Lord will hold them accountable. Paul seemed to think it was a big deal that there was no blood on his hands, it won't go well for those with blood on their hands. It won't matter how well they cover it up right now either; the Lord will uncover, expose and hold accountable.
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T-Bone
That's the assumption my post # 177 was addressing. TWI followers accepted as gospel truth vp's claim that God talked to him. And it was reinforced every time vp would pause for effect while teaching the Corps or an Advanced Class – sometimes mid-sentence and say Father says shut up Wierwille. If you haven't read it already, you ought to check out Word Wolf's thread The Way: Living in Wonderland
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=178369
IMHO, a better biblical comparison with vp would be the Pharisees and Scribes – hypocrites who were often at the receiving end of Jesus' most scathing rebukes, see Matthew 23:1-39 and Luke 11:37-54.
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JeffSjo
Dear T-Bone,
If God gave Dr. Wierwille what amounts to a conditional promise, then God will judge. I know throughout the years that it's been misused, but promising to teach him the Word like it hasn't been known since the 1st century.... if he'd teach..... is a conditional promise. It never meant that everything would always be good, nor did I ever hear it presented that PFAL was the fulfillment of that promise. I just always assumed it was understood that it was to be a work in progress and that only God would be in charge of its success or failure.
I believe all of you that in the later years it was missrepresented, missused, and missapplied to everyone's harm. I know a lot of you disagree, but even with the terrible results, it wouldn't be the first time people have completely botched a conditional promise from God.
If God didn't give Dr. Wiewille the conditional promise, then there is still so much good in the doctrine for me that I have to give it some credit for the simple fact that there were things taught that I believe to be true.
I REALLY DON'T JUDGE IT ANY DIFFERENTLY THAN ANY OTHER TIME SOMEONE SAYS GOD TALKED TO THEM.
(ADDED IN EDITING)
I haven't read that T-Bone, I'll go do that now.
P.S. O.K., I've started reading, but it's a lot. I'll keep going. It'll take more time than I have today.
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rascal
Jeff, thank you for your compassion.....but I need to be clear with you. When I speak of brothers and sisters in the context of twi, I am speaking of brothers and sisters in Christ, my spiritual family. My friends in twi, the posters here that have shared their stories. I know people that all of the above things mentioned happened...but they were not my flesh and blood physical family...not that it makes the crimes any less heinous....I just don`t want you to think that I am over exaggerating or lying.
Another thing, I certainly don`t think you are nuts. I just think that we were ALL decieved by false prophets, by wolves in sheeps clothing....ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour.
I think that they HAD to look good, they as wolves had to disguise themselves as one of the sheep in order to get close enough to the flock to attack.....they had to appear spiritual in order to fool us into serving them. Proverbs talks about in vain is the snare set in sight of the prey.
I think that rather than bring us closer to God, they lured us away...that they so confused us with all of the knowledge seeking and aquired arrogance and busy work, that in time we couldn`t even HEAR the voice of God any more.
I know, I seem bitter, implacable, angry....I AM...I am so offended that these things happened to innocents, that these atrocities were forced upon us in God`s name.... furious that the bible was used as a weapon to enforce evil ... I am so angry that I cannot read the bible or listen to a sermon with out getting ....ed at how those words that were to be so healing ended up enslaving and hurting...grrrrr
In the end I have to be really really ....ED at a God who would call people to a ministry of perverts and criminals ...to be used and destroyed ...or look at the evidence and decide if these guys were merely masquerading as ministers...false prophets that would draw people away from God....
It is my belief that God and scriptures were merely a tool that these men used to sate their lusts and fill their bellies. I have no respect for that.
Jeff, please don`t be angry with me for my opinions either. I detect in your posts, the compassion of a genuine Christian. When folks are operating the 2 great commandments, I think they can vehemently disagree with each other on issues and still have the deepest respect for one another as Christian brothers and sisters.
Yeah they taught us some bible...but they taught us to ignore a whole lot more.
How could we ever trust a God that would lead us into a group like twi :(
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JeffSjo
Dear Rascal,
O.K., I get it now about the brothers and sisters, thanks for clearing that up for me.
When I was in the middle of a different type of perverting the truth in that small splinter group I talk about, It was everything I could handle to fight for the scriptures to be applied to the situations that came up in the span of years. The only thing I can say for sure about being correct is that my conscience is clear, I dare not boast about being right, but I always am willing to share so others can judge for themselves.
Coming from my own experience, I have no trouble imagining TWI starting well and then over time being corrupt. Between sin being something that anyone can fall into and biblical cowardace, it eventually becomes actively seeking to destroy those who speak from a good heart and a clear conscience. Covering up the sin mixed with becoming experts at the art of managing public perception can fool anyone.
In my life it is very clear that it started good and became bad. (IN the splinter group) I have no problem thinking the same of TWI, but I'm still looking at it.
No Rascal, I'm not mad at you. I'm concerned about the P----d at God part of what's on your heart, but I"ve been there too.
(added in editing)
Gotta go now, but before I go for the day just a couple of things.
In my little splinter group I was around from the beginning. In TWI I was not around from the beginning. It could be a mistake to assume it went down the same way without all the facts. But it's not hard for me to think it could have went down the same way, starting good and turning bad. There is an awful lot of that in the bible. It's a common pattern for men.
Right now What I think is that it started good and turned out bad.
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rascal
Well, it is an either or with me Jeff. God was either behind vp, or vp was a deciever.
I had my spiritual crisis, and come out of the other side. I gave God the finger when my life shattered and fell apart and told him that Number one, I didn`t believe he existed, and number two...IF per chance he did....to stay the hell away from me ....that EVERYTHING that I had ever been taught about him was a lie.
Kind of funny looking back at it now...long story short... I remember that calm quiet voice...and could almost feel a dig in the ribs....and this gentle laughter saying...well GOOD...now that we have THAT established, are you ready to start all over again at square one ....
I got home that evening and had some insane things happen, things that were humorous but in which there could be no doubt that God was there, that the crazy events were orchestrated by him, and tthat we were to begin all over again.
We started with deciding if he was there....and then because I was adamant about never trusting anyone ever again to teach me what was truly of God.....I was asked if I could handle *Love God and love my neighbor* as a starting place.
Trust me Jeff, I know and acknowledge that God is very very good. I just don`t believe that he had anything to do with twi.
VPW DOES however seem to fit the bill of a false prophet....his fruit shows he was of the flesh.....a liar, a pharacee that would use God and the scriptures and the authority as a minister to steal fraom and destroy God`s people.
He was a sneak, a thief, and deceiver, and a destroyer of souls. His life and his ministry left a swath of destruction through peoples lives and to me bear ample evidence as to whom he worked for.
As far as splinter groups. I just feel strongly that if they have built their foundations on the doctrines learned from a man of the flesh...that they have faulty foundations built on shifting sands....they can patch and repair and whitwash to hide the flaws...but I believe that eventually the foundation(as with any) that when the pressure is applied, when the storms arrive...that they will crumble and fail...and that everything built on top of them will be destroyed.
Far better to raise the building to the ground and start fresh on a solid rock, with new materials that are manufactured to code.
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JeffSjo
Dear Rascal,
I really do have to go, but maybe there'd be some comfort for us both if we'd agree together that the Lord will someday make the hidden things plain to see. By hidden things I mean what really went on inside peoples' hearts.
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rascal
I agree to trust God whatever those hidden things may be.
Have a great evening Jeff, I am about to leave as well. Peace :)
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J0nny Ling0
Yeah Jeff, I have always believed that TWI started out with good intentions, God's intentions, but then went bad. That VPW got sucked into the pleasures of sin at the expense of innocent people. You see, I had prayed on my knees one night for God to send a Christian to me to teach me what I needed to know. And the very next morning, God sent a WOW Ambassador, a girl, who glowed with the love of God who then, on the spot opened up the book of Ephesians to me and taught me a bunch about Jesus Christ, many of our son ship rights and etc. An undeniable answer to prayer! . So, if God saw fit to introduce me to The Way Ministry and PFAL, then it was good enough for me too. I know things went bad, but I too believe that things started out "good". Even better than good, but went bad... :)
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi all you greasespotters!.......it is interesting to note, that a few posters on this thread do not address any of the questions raised in my last post on this thread other than those they themselves infer from the last paragraph of that post! why do some folks become so alarmed and disturbed at the appearance of any post which accurately describes or recounts vic's ministry, and/or his extracurricular activities as our "father in the word'??......i have observed less passionate appeals for mercy for convicted murderers on death row than some of the emotionally charged pleas for us to "forgive" vic posted here!.....and, yes!..........this comparison is just as valid as the ones made here that we are somehow "bound by scripture" to forgive vic just like jesus christ forgave those who "know not what they do" during his crucifixion!
Sweet Pea..............who's in charge of "cutting a break"?..........no one "cut me a break" when i resigned from twi in the fall of 1986........at that time, much of the information about vic, lcm, and their sexual and fiduciary misconduct was available to clapp and the rest of twi's leaders......and, much, much more has been brought to light in the 22 years since!......yet, clapp chose to stand with and for twi during the years following POP through march of 1989........during those years, clapp chose to ignore or deny the facts brought to light concerning vic, the doofus from okie, and twi doctrines and practices........why??........that's almost 3 years of faithful support until the "pledge of allegiance letter" of march,1989 sent out by king okie and twi!.......why, in 1989, did clapp pledge his loyalty to the doofus from okie and twi despite the ever-growing volume of facts documenting lcm's gross misconduct and moral terpitude??.........this is a simple question, not an accusation!.......how was it that clapp was able to become martindale's "biblical research" confidant/advisor during the time in twi which produced such twisted, perverted doctrines and practices as the infamous "homo purge", absolutely "no debt", and the oh so godly "mark and avoid" fiascos?..........how could clapp support, reconcile and promote such utter perversions of christianity with the christian scriptures??....how was he able to faithfully and loyally carry out orders from martindale, or moynihan, and others, with a "clean conscience" during those years of 1989 through 1997?............when clapp finally left twi and ran to cff, what were the reasons/issues which prompted his departure after "going along" with king okie and da boyz in da hoods since pledging his allegiance to them in 1989?
you said, "these guys only want to continue in the ministry as their vocation without going the mainstream religion route that some of our other twi people have done. i have more respect for these guys than the other ex-Wayy Corps who are teaching crap just to make a buck."......really??...........i sure don't!........what "ministry" do they seek to "continue in" as their "vocation"?........what gives them this "vocation", or the right to continue in it without question?.......has there been any critical or objective examination of the thinking that created the problems of "the ministry" that clapp quit, and yet wants to "continue in"?........or, are they just re-packaging vic's products and re-marketing them to twi refugees?.........talk about "teaching crap just to make a buck"!...........you wrote, "cut them a break like you've been cut also"........did i miss something here?.........who "cut me a break"?..........when i left twi, in 1986, i did my best to speak the truth and facts about what was going on "behind the scenes " at twi..........i sought out those to whom i felt i owed any apologies, asked their forgiveness, and tried to hold twi's "feet to the fire" for a year and a half.........i re-examined everything vic taught and plagiarized so as not to repeat the same twisted thinking that hooked me in twi, brought twi down, and harmed so many human beings.........i felt then, and still do now, that this was my moral and christian responsibilty to god and his children........clapp, cff, and the other offshoots of twi want to "continue in the ministry" of vic and twi without taking any "time off" for objective examination of the thinking and doctrines of either!.....is that "cutting them a break"?..............when i left twi, i went back to school, changed "vocations", learned a new profession, and have been working full-time in the real world for the last 20 years.........something hundreds of other ex-way corps grads have done during those same 20 years!........i'm more than willing to cut clapp and the rest the same "break"............but, for some reason, they can't "cut it"........hence, my questions to them all as raised in the other paragraphs of my last post here besides just the last one!
and oldiesman becomes indignant at another poster when he states, "you're telling me what *i* saw?".........yet, on this very same thread, he presumes to tell the greasespot readers what my "outlook" on vic was when i resigned from twi 22 years ago!........how can he do that?......is he god almighty?........i can assure you all that oldiesman has NEVER talked with me regarding what my "outlook of dr. wierwille" was 22 years ago then, or at any time since!......his post is rife with inaccuracies and misinformation.......disinformation too!..........i resigned from twi in the late fall of 1986, and "announced" my resignation right then and there, not in some letter written months after the fact!.........sue pierce was also a signatory to that letter........why is that fact omitted?.....both sue pierce and robert belt resigned from twi in 1986, well before that letter was written.......they did not "announce " their resignations in that letter either!........tom reahard was still a "leader" in twi when that letter was written......he did not announce his resignation in that letter either..........john and pat lynn were both full-time employees of twi as limb coordinators when that letter was written.......they never resigned from twi.......they were fired by howard allen on april 1,1987, one of the "rersults" for them for participating in the writing of that letter!
now oldiesman is going to tell you all how and why that letter was written, 21 years later, as if he was there!......he does not know who wrote what parts of that letter.....he never participated in any of the deliberations or discussions surrounding its writing......and, he has no inkling of an idea of the what, why, where, when and how of its composition!........yet, he is somehow able to interperet for you all, the nuances of that letter which he has already inaccurately described, and totally misinformed you about!.......and, somehow, this letter of 21 years ago is relevant to my post about clapp and cff??.........oldiesman is completely ignorant about how and why that letter was written, let alone what the "outlook of dr.wierwille" was in the minds of those who wrote it!.........and, once again, what is that letter's relevance to my post??
in conclusion, i'd like to quote my friend al one more time, "whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods"...........thanks to you posters on this thread who keep those "gods" laughing!.........................peace.
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