A note on forgiving

[Ham]

I respect DWBH, but let's be clear about something: upon DWBH's leaving the ministry he did it with a very respectful outlook of Dr. Wierwille.

If it makes any difference, when I left the ministry, the same could be said of me. It took me a couple of years for the insanity to wear off, and ask the real hard questions..

[oldiesman]

If DWBH is excused by reason of insanity then CFF should be as well. :)

[Ham]

perhaps. But eventually, the drugs wear off.. or they should.

I think we all were kinda nuts..

perhaps two kinds of "patients" came out of twi:

1. Those who were merely doped up

2. The few they gave a lobotomy.

The effect may be he same, just in one case, it doesn't wear off..

[Ham]

I think when a lot of us were "put out on the street"..

the vast majority made a few adjustments.. figured out how to fit into society.. build a career.. get an education.. try to build relationships outside of the few one-sided ones where "communication" is defined as "you better listen to me, ah've got da anwers"..

perhaps there was some withdraw. But I think most here got through it.

Then there's the other part of the group.. the "chronics".. the "culls of the ward"..

can't really function without someone feeding them, clothing, bathing them..

can't function without vociferously promoting an organization, i.e., "moving the word"..

[rascal]

Sadly, you miss the point. I know that they were as corrupt as you say. But to spend one's life immersed in the past and allowing dead men to hurt you is beyond sanity, in my opinion. And, like it or not, both God and Jesus have instructed us to forgive those who have trespassed against us. Seems to me that the "winning combo" is to forgive and move on....

Snort....then there are those who`s identity is SO wrapped up in who they were in twi...when we believed that we were God`s spiritual superstars....that they can`t get along in a world where everyone doesn`t still buy into their illusions of greatness.

Look at me...look at the great man of Gawd...let me tell you what God`s will for YOU is....baaah They are in NO position to help anybody untill they start all over from a healthy spiritual base.

I LOVE that God says to forgive, friend...you conveniently left out a HUGE part of the operation however....WHEN WHEN WHEN they repent and ask...:)

In MY opinion....your *winning combo* operated according to twi dogma....allows evil to continue unchecked....Jesus certainly didn`t let the pharacees and money changers in the temple off the hook like you are suggesting....shrug...I chose to follow HIS example in this particular arena.

[rascal]

As far as which leaders believed what on exiting twi Oldies ?? That is silly...I suppose there are two types of people that left twi....be they leaders or followers.....those who in time, are able to get honest concerning the evil that occured, and those who will spend a life time making excuses for the evil that occured.

One is to be respected, the other to be pitied.

Edited February 4, 2008 by rascal

[oldiesman]

...I suppose there are two types of people that left twi....be they leaders or followers.....those who in time, are able to get honest concerning the evil that occured, and those who will spend a life time making excuses for the evil that occured.

And I suppose there are a whole lot of others who fall in between who recognize that both good and evil occurred and desire to hold fast to the good and withdraw from the evil.

[JeffSjo]

Hi Oldiesman,

As one who's shared openly about my intentions I think anyone would need to get honest about the evil to be able to withdraw from it. So the category you mentioned I don't consider as an inbetweener, but more of a subset of Rascal,s first category.

I don't mean to quibble, I really wanted to just throw my two little cents in. Besides, I don't think I've ever responded to one of your posts before.

[rascal]

And I suppose there are a whole lot of others who fall in between who recognize that both good and evil occurred and desire to hold fast to the good and withdraw from the evil.

Sounds more to me like an excuse to avoid coming to grips with our responsibility as genuine Christians.

I think it is mighty foolish to assume anything that you learned from a man who was of the flesh is valid or *good* spiritually or worth holding fast to.

There are plenty of wholesome avenues to help develop ourselves as men and women of the spirit, but if our head is so full of crap we are *holding fast to* learned from one whom was *of the flesh*...it can be very difficult to ever break free from the bondage of wrong teaching.

Edited February 4, 2008 by rascal

[JeffSjo]

Hi Rascal,

It's allways a pleasure.

For me, my Christian responsibility is to do both. It seems it would be easier to assign the whole matter to the scrap heap. But I can't do that with a clear conscience.

I've mentioned that I believe the Lord will set fire to it, and the stuff that remains will be left. In my own little brain I need to do the same thing.

I'm not condemming you though, I like a lot about your posts, I meant it.

With respect: JEFF

[rascal]

Thanks Jeff...we each must walk our own path as guided you know? My path is not yours, nor your mine. For me...I had to go back to the very beginning and decide if I even believed that there WAS a God....because as far as I was concerned....everything I had ever been taught was a lie...every principle that was supposed to work with a mathmatical accuracy and scientific precision ...fell apart..it all turned to dust....

I had to start over again with *Love God and Love your neighbor*....it was all I could handle as being *truth* and build from there.....it was all I could handle because I knew that I could never trust anyone again.

Now days, if I don`t see *love God and love your neighbor* in action ...I don`t give a damn what scriptures are coming out of a persons mouth ...it`s all just tinkling cymbles...you know?? :)

I think that is why I can generally *hear* what you have to say Jeff, I can see the love you have for your fellow Christian...and that impresses me far more than any biblical scholar and their scriptural quotations EVER will.

Cathy

Edited February 4, 2008 by rascal

[waysider]

Let me see if I understand correctly, Oldies.

You want to criticize Don because he still hadn't come to grips(21 years ago) with what was happening? This is 2008. As far as I can tell, you still haven't come to grips with it!

Nothin' personal, brother, but what exactly is it you think Don should do?

Do you think he should just keep quiet because he was as hoodwinked as we were?

I personally applaud him for the guts it must take to come here and speak openly.

Maybe some day, if the little light bulb finally lights up for you, we should point fingers at you and say, "Gee, Oldies, you should have figured it out from what you read at GSC , all those years ago."

"Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself."------------Bo Diddley

Edited February 4, 2008 by waysider

[excathedra]

And those whose lives were ruined by The Way should commit themselves to spending the rest of their entire lives re-living those painful memories so as to be able to stay in a state of mind which will enable them to stay in the hunt, searching out anything remotely resembling The Way and tearing it apart...

first of all jonny "lives ruined" is your personal take

second of all jonny this is a discussion forum

take it easy

in my opinion, veepee was an azz and people still lauding him are azzes

clear enough ? :)

[excathedra]

by the way ha, some people's lives were ruined, believe it or not

but they are not "here" committed to doing anything

in particular, one of my dear friends from the same "corps" as i left a suicide note saying "i wish i were the man i knew to be"

by the way ha, some people's lives were ruined, believe it or not

but they are not "here" committed to doing anything

in particular, one of my dear friends from the same "corps" as i left a suicide note saying "i wish i were the man i knew to be"

[J0nny Ling0]

When Jesus was on the Cross, he said; "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". Only one of the two (or four, however you want to look at it) repented to Jesus. The others "cast the same into his teeth". And yet Jesus said "forgive them Father (plural) for they know not what they do". And so. Have you ever been stripped naked and spit upon? Whipped with a cat' o' nine tails? Been beaten in the face by gladiatorial combatants with a bag over your head and asked; "If you are a child of God, which one of us punched you!!??" Have you ever endured such TORTURE? No, YOU HAVE NOT and you know it! Yet Jesus said; "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do".* His is the example to follow! NOT yours Rascal. Not Yours Excathedra. Not your humiliations Kevin (me), not anybody elses but the example of Jesus, OUR LORD.

It is in forgiveness that we can have peace. Peace in our hearts. Peace in our daily lives. YOUR daily Life. Have you ever seen the bumper sticker that says:

"No Jesus, no peace. Know Jesus, Know Peace".

Man I am telling you, to go the way of Jesus is your only deliverance! I am not trying to hurt you. I am only trying to tell you that forgiving and moving on is THE ONLY WAY to survive, to move on, to be at peace, to be HAPPY.

*And now the asterisk:

If Jesus said: Forgive them Father for they know not what they do", then by sheer logic (sorry for that PFAL term), those that were being asked to be forgiven DID NOT APOLOGIZE to Jesus! For, "they knew not what they did"! How can you apologize if you did not even know that you had made a mistake?! Yet Jesus asked God Almighty to forgive them, even though they didn't even know that they were in the wrong. Jesus forgave them even though they did NOT apologize.

And so, doesn't the Written Word have ANY sway on your minds? I didn't present any biblical research here, I just quoted some Scripture that we all say that we believe, that's all. Oh well, peace be to you. You know that I have been averse to certain opinions here, but even though you may think that I am just wanting to be combative, it really isn't true. I want you all to be able to move on, to be FREE, to be blessed and happy and not tied up in the knots and bondage of the past. I am not an evil man who just wants to "win an argument". I just want you all, who have suffered a really bummer time from the past to be able to move on and be freed from the sadness from those times that can never be re-gained. Please, "Consider These Words..."

With Love,

JL

Edited February 5, 2008 by Jonny Lingo

[doojable]

*And now the asterisk:

If Jesus said: Forgive them Father for they know not what they do", then by sheer logic (sorry for that PFAL term) n, those that were being asked to be forgiven DID NOT APOLOGIZE to Jesus! For, "they knew not what they did"! How can you apologize if you did not even know that you had made a mistake?! Yet Jesus asked God Almighty to forgive them, even though they didn't even know that they were in the wrong. Jesus forgave them and they did NOT apologize.

I've stopped posting to this thread for the most part, but I had to ask the following:

Jonny, are you implying here that vpw didn't KNOW what wrongs he was doing (and teaching by example)? I won't enumerate them here - they've been spelled out plenty, (and I'm sure someone will enumerate them again)

If the situations are that different, wouldn't the standard for forgiveness also be different - by sheer logic?

These men (and the crowd as well) were cheering the death of the Messiah - but they thought they were crucifying a blasphemer.

Just asking....

Edited February 5, 2008 by doojable

[rascal]

You are mistaken in your assumption that someone whom holds false prophets and destroyers of God`s people accountible for their actions, as someone who doesn`t *know Jesus* . To assume such is the hight of arrogance.

You completely ignored how Jesus treated the pharacees and money changers who cheated and abused God`s people in your impassioned little speech Jonny.

I would think that the difference in the scenario you gave, and the scenario that I gave ...lays in the fact that Jesus asked for forgivness for the people....HE asked....he said *for they know not what they do*...the pharacees and money changers who deliberately hurt and knew what they were doing was wrong....they were treated in a whole different way by Jesus...He threw a right little tantrum about THEIR activities.

Yeah, Jesus asked for forgivness when the folks didn`t know what they were doing. I personally think vpw KNEW and didn`t care that drugging rape and adultery, the savaging of reputations, the destruction of innocent characters was wrong and not in keeping with the flocks best interests.

He can`t repent or ask any more, so it is a moot point. The rest of the leaders whom are propounding his doctrines...they still have that opportunity. It is between them n God.

Edited February 5, 2008 by rascal

[J0nny Ling0]

It doesn't matter if VP knew his sins or not, just like Jesus forgave those who sinned against him, yet didn't even know they had sinned against him. Yet Jesus, in his AGONY, forgave them...

And so, all that was to you Rascal was my "impassioned little speech". Fine. Mock me. Live how you want, and my concern be damned...

[rascal]

That is doctrine learned at the feet of a man of the flesh Jonny. Doctrine that allows evil to run unchecked.

The scriptures say differently. That a brother must ASK first. But hey, let`s not let scriptural accuracy interfere with your reality.

Edited February 5, 2008 by rascal

[rascal]

Jonny, you make silly assumptions in your speech. You act like people who disagree with your scriptural assumptions as to not knowing Jesus. How on EARTH could I take you seriously?

As for not seeing the concern in your post??? Forgive me for missing it. I guess after so many years of having to duck your swings...it comes as a real suprise that you would all of a sudden appear to care for me personally.

(((Excathedra))) I am so sorry about your friend. What a tragedy. We were just trying to do our best for God. I am still bewildered at how it could have all gone so terribly wrong.

[WhiteDove]

It doesn't matter if VP knew his sins or not, just like Jesus forgave those who sinned against him, yet didn't even know they had sinned against him. Yet Jesus, in his AGONY, forgave them...

And so, all that was to you Rascal was my "impassioned little speech". Fine. Mock me. Live how you want, and my concern be damned...

Well Jonny you gave it the old college try anyway..............

[J0nny Ling0]

Thanks White Dove. It's great to know that our Lord Jesus loves us so unconditionally huh? Glad he's The Man, and not us! :)

[oldiesman]

That is doctrine learned at the feet of a man of the flesh Jonny.

The sins of the messenger doesn't negate the truth in the message.

[Ham]

I dunno.. if one must scrape three layers of blood and guts of the victims off the scroll, it still may still be rather difficult to read.

Edited February 5, 2008 by Ham

[Ham]

Might want to try Iron Out. They say it is good at removing pesky blood stains..

don't know what it'll do to the rest of the scroll