Unfortunately, the level of insanity and hatred required to commit murders like these are often caused by growing up in a cult like this guy did. There is no excuse for the murders he committed and all the suffering he caused, but we should look at the causes of these tragedies to see what we can do to stop them in the future.
Having grown up in TWI, I can understand why he wouldn't like Christian groups. If TWI was my only exposure to Christianity, I'd probably hate all Christians too. Religious cults including fundamentalist Christian groups like this guy was apparently raised in cause people to adopt extremists behavior, even if they are extreme in their rejection of the fundamentalism.
The first shooting took place 10 blocks from my house. I drive by the location several times a week on my way to the bank or grocery.
First of all, the shooter did NOT grow up in the group which he took revenge against. He did participate for a period of time in their missionary training program ( program as I understand). He did not complete the program, due to what is reported as health reasons. Those have not as yet been revealed, nor do I know if they were physical or mental, but allusions have been made to his mental health at the time. His family are very active in their church, but that too is not a cult from what I have heard.
Secondly, the group itself is supported by mainline churches, and provided with space and facilities by them. The second shootings took place at the largest church in CO, started by Ted Haggard who was outed for his clandestine homosexual liasons a couple of years ago, and released from his position at the church. His outing was ONLY significant because he was well known for his views opposing gays.
I do not understand what is being alluded to by this thread, please explain.
It would seem to me it's merely a matter of concern that's being alluded to -- much the same as many other topics opened for further discussion and comment -- just as it's become a hot topic on many other boards, such as this one - where the guy may or may not have been a regular member.
choo*
exPc Fan
Posts: 427
(12/9/07 4:18 pm)
For those who don't know what's going on, here's what happened:
Someone saw on the news that a gunman had killed people at YWAM in colorado. Someone came to this forum and saw someone's messages indicating a desire to kill people, and not caring if he was killed in the gunfight. The person who saw the posts knew the poster was a former member of YWAM and had also attended Ted Haggard's church. He or she contacted the FBI, believing that the person who left the posts could be the shooter, and showed them the message board.
The FBI is looking into the possibility that the person who left the threatening messages here was the shooter. The IP address of the person who left the messages was recorded.
The shooter may have traveled 70 miles to Colorado Springs and opened fire on New Life Church also.
The shooter is reported to have killed himself.
Two moderators, Lutherius and boustro have already been contacted concerning the information.
* Edited to include name of the poster/date/time posted
Just as he may or may not have authored this post titled -My YWAM Horror Story. . .
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 25
(5/8/07 5:34 pm)
Reply
New Post Re: My YWAM Horror Story I did my DTS at YWAM Denver and Dale Lambert was my DTS school leader. I witnessed all kinds of insanity. Men would be making out with other men in the hallways, listening to all kinds of "metal music"(non-christian), smoke pot with each other while off base, there were rumors of sexual activity, both hetero and homosexual.
Not that any of those things are bad...but.......
Why was I told that I couldn't be a missionary because I wasn't "social enough"? I was told that I was "an introvert."
Everyone else got to go on their outreaches except for a few who lied about smoking(cigarettes).
The authoritarianism and hypocrisy is outrageous. The YWAM leaders would always believe that they had some special "connection to God" to be able to dictate and rule over student's lives. I'm not talking about simple rules like "no drugs allowed" but rather "we prayed and we feel like the spirit says that you're not loyal enough" or "we prayed and we feel like God says you're not to go on any outreaches." For just asking the question "why are we having a special group meeting tonight?" I was told "we prayed and we feel that you have a spirit of rebellion and if you ask or question anything any further we may have to send you home..." I was told that I could not watch an "R" movie at a movie theater even though several of the other students did...and yes, the leaders knew full well about it.
The lack of knowledge and thinking is another story. Almost none of those people ever questioned the things they were taught. They always assume it's true and in matters of contradictory teachers and teachings, they'd just believe and follow whatever everyone's emotions were feeling. I remember "holy spirit week" where they tried to get everyone "baptised in the holy spirit." I went along with it just to stop people harassing me and asking me "are you still speaking in tongues? you better not stop doing that or you might lose the holy spirit....." I now know that the Divine Spirit is within all of us no matter what our religion is. Very few actually had answers in regards to salvation or "hearing the voice of God." A lot of the "prophesy" in those groups was/is nothing more than lower psychism. Sure, they can be accurate once in a while, but even then it's on a lower level. Just because someone is psychically/spiritually sensitive doesn't mean they know how to exercise it or have a trained mind. It also does not mean that they understand spiritual principles. It only means that they are sensitive to the lower astral levels.
1 person did get sent home for making an amateur sex video of homosexual nature....6 or 7 people were involved but only that one person got sent home. I know 3 or 4 others were sent home simply for smoking a legal nicotine cigarette. A few people got "talks"(slaps on the wrist) about their openly homosexual behaviour in front of everyone. They all went on outreach. For the record, when I was told by the YWAM staff 1 week before I was to leave on outreach that they did not want me on outreach, I asked them if I had done anything wrong. I ask them to clarify their reasons and they did make it clear to me that I had not commited any "sin" or done anything wrong...except for the one time I questioned, but that that was not the reason they were sending me home. They made it clear that they were sending me home because they "prayed to God" and felt that I was "not social enough" and was "an introvert." After having left I of course found out how true all those words about "we all love and care about you very much" and "we do care about you." really were.......
I never heard back from them and when I got home....well.....back to the usual christian insanity at home and my parent's church.
The fact is, in YWAM, and christianity, it's all about the Beautiful People. No, it's not just "one group of bad christians" but rather....almost every group of christians except for a few open minded non-evangelical churches. If you're an extrovert, and popular, then yes, there is plenty of love waiting for you in christianity. If you ask questions and want to understand things and/or desire a real and deep spirituality, or if you're just not popular...well.......you are considered as one of the horrible people and are either going to be abused or kicked out by "holy spirit love filled" christians. it's all about......
the Beautiful People........
If any YWAMer believes that I'm on the wrong path and that they have "The Spiritual Truth" and answers then feel free to send me a message, I'd love to discuss these things with you and discover "truth"(If I indeed have not found it yet).
Thanks FaintW for finding those posts. I suspect we will learn more, but my guess is that the description posted above is way off base as a real description of YWAM, knowing the church here in Arvada which is their sponsor, and reading what I have on the YWAM website.
Hopefully no one here feels any such feelings for revenge, but it is of interest that he was on that site, yet apparently did not deal with his rage. I suppose more facts will emerge as to what he became involved in after he was kicked out of the group. I think there was something he was involved in that got him kicked out ...
SOME sites for people leaving SOME groups actually add to the rage for SOME people. Happens here as well. On the other hand SOME people find solace in the companions they find there. I am really just suggesting that it would be unwise and unfair to label YWAM as being a cult based on that poster's or the shooter's view.
This is a portion of a statement by YWAM:
Murray was briefly a student at the YWAM Arvada training centre in 2002. He was enrolled in a Discipleship Training School (DTS) but did not complete the program. The DTS is a 12 week classroom course followed by a 12 week field assignment, usually to another culture. The goal of the program is to form Christian character and assist students in discovering their unique, God-given talents. Cross-cultural exposure and global awareness are special emphases throughout these courses, preparing the students to use their talents to obey the commands of Jesus. The program also involves local outreach with nearby churches and communities, and each student is involved in helping run the practical operations of the YWAM centre. Not everyone completing a DTS necessarily joins YWAM. Many participate in a DTS to take time out to focus on their faith and consider whether God might be calling them to Christian ministry. For those who choose to go on into a career with YWAM, successful completion of the DTS qualifies them to apply for hundreds of staff opportunities or further training.
Murray did not complete the lecture phase of his Discipleship Training School, nor did he participate in the field assignment. The program directors felt that issues with his health made it inappropriate for him to do so. Murray left the Arvada training centre and no one at the facility recalls that he has made any other visits or had any communication with the centre since that time.
By the way, contrary to the comment in Faintwhisper's quoted post, the shooter was killed in the ColoSprgs church, by a security guard. security there had been beefed up for the morning, after information of the Arvada shooting was announced, considering the common programs between the two locations.
I meant only to offer a possible explanation for opening the thread -- providing those links and quotes (seemingly most relevant) in an effort to illustrate how the discussion alluded to, could be considered germane to the topic.
I don't think I was alluding to that group being a cult, though reading those mesages FaintWhispers quoted now makes me wonder a little. But the main interest was simply that he was on a site with some similarities to GreaseSpot. It certainly seemed a topic that would be of interest on many levels.
You said "SOME sites for people leaving SOME groups actually add to the rage for SOME people. Happens here as well." If rage is being ADDED here at any point, then that could be looked at ... why is there rage being added here at GreaseSpot?
I don't know about YWAM, as I said at first, it seemed much different than TWI. It is larger and tied in with other churches apparently. Still I don't care for the controlling structure of even "normal" churches, so some of the inner working of the more fundamentalist groups may reveal more dogmatic and intolerant behavior than I would have thought from reading their brochure. Of course TWI brochures would present an innocuous image as well.
They now say the killer killed himself, though the security guard shot at him, maybe hit him.
Unfortunately, the level of insanity and hatred required to commit murders like these are often caused by growing up in a cult like this guy did. There is no excuse for the murders he committed and all the suffering he caused, but we should look at the causes of these tragedies to see what we can do to stop them in the future.
Having grown up in TWI, I can understand why he wouldn't like Christian groups. If TWI was my only exposure to Christianity, I'd probably hate all Christians too. Religious cults including fundamentalist Christian groups like this guy was apparently raised in cause people to adopt extremists behavior, even if they are extreme in their rejection of the fundamentalism.
If the fundamentalist group was the cause, there would be many more murders. His rejection may have been a trigger, but he was apparently only involved short time. The guy in the Norway killer thread ... not sure about him. Perhaps the parenting will be looked at ... did they push him too hard to conform? Or did he have the wrong chromosmes? Or was he not breast fed?
If the fundamentalist group was the cause, there would be many more murders. His rejection may have been a trigger, but he was apparently only involved short time. The guy in the Norway killer thread ... not sure about him. Perhaps the parenting will be looked at ... did they push him too hard to conform? Or did he have the wrong chromosmes? Or was he not breast fed?
I think you and I agree to a point. I'm not saying that everyone raised in a religious cult is going to go crazy. I'll never murder anyone and I was raised in TWI which was probably worse. There are many other people raised in cults that never go on to commit violence against anyone else. However, things that are taught in strict religious households do lead to mental illness, or make existing ones worse. For example, TWI's belief that we are constantly under attack by devil spirits is a pretty crazy thing. You often hear about insane murderers claiming that they got revelation from God to kill someone because they were a demon disguised as a person. A lot of what this type of Christianity teaches results in creating mental illnesses in kids.
Also, as far as the religious group his parents were associated with, I thought it was Ted Haggard's church. If you watch the documentary "Jesus Camp" they are brought into it because those kids attended his church. These people are even more isolated from reality than we were in TWI, the kids are homeschooled with only religious books, they are raised to be "soldiers for Jesus", and were taught in their summer camp to admire and adopt the dedication of Muslim suicide bombers.
Yes, this morning the autopsy was released, and he is listed as suicide gunshot to the head. He was hit three times in the leg and wrist by the security guard. I apologize for my earlier correction, much was made here yesterday as to the guard's role.
Rhino- it was more P-Mosh's post that struck me as accusing YWAM of being a cult, and he has further explained his earlier thoughts. From your original post it was unclear to me what you were trying to have a discussion about and I asked for explanation which I THINK you have now provided. (something about what role the forums he participated played???- is that right). His most inflaming posts seem to be on a place called alt.suicide.holiday THAT might indicate how unsound his mental reasoning had been stretched.
P-Mosh- As far as I know his parent's church is not affiliated with Haggard's. One is in central Denver, the other in ColoSpgs.
As reported today, one thing in his past being discussed here in CO is the homeschool program he was raised with. The particular curriculum (perhaps search for "Bill Gotthard"?) his parent's followed is one of the most strict regarding rules for conduct. It is not recommended by or for very many homeschool educator's. I will wait for more to be revealed about it, I do not have time to look now. I do understand it forbade dating, and many other types of socializing.
This might have caused him to be an unworthy candidate for a christian missionary program. He was denied joining his YWAM's training group's mission trip after his 12 weeks training. The reason YWAM is giving is that he was considered too much of an introvert to be of help in the mission which was going to Bosnia.
It is NOT being suggested that being homeschooled was the problem itself, only that perhaps the particular program he was in might have not been well advised for his particular needs, and exacerbated what is likely to have been an already fragile mental condition.
Also, as far as the religious group his parents were associated with, I thought it was Ted Haggard's church. If you watch the documentary "Jesus Camp" they are brought into it because those kids attended his church. These people are even more isolated from reality than we were in TWI, the kids are homeschooled with only religious books, they are raised to be "soldiers for Jesus", and were taught in their summer camp to admire and adopt the dedication of Muslim suicide bombers.
As far as I know, Matt Murray's connection to Haggard's church was through YWAM not his parent's church. Both the Arvada church and NewLife Church (Haggard's) have onsite offices for YWAM.
Hap I was trying not to be too focused, but to intoduce the topic broadly.
I was only aware that he had posted to a site for people getting out of fundamentalist type groups, so maybe he would have gotten better help here. :) I was just thinking that his site didn't help him, but maybe it actually hurt him, if there was a lot of Christian hate generated there ... I have no idea at this point. Depending on what he had written, perhaps the FBI was called too late. ...
It is hard to relate to such extreme aberrant behavior, but still it seemed there might be something to glean from the situation ... and we are here to discuss anyway ...
The home schooling aspect is something some on the right figured the lefty teacher unions would push as a contributing factor. Some would wonder if being in a large city public school is better or worse for becoming socialized and non-violent..
Well, what I did was go along with them to Tijuana after the (now ex) missus volunteered my services.
I paid for my own plane ticket to San Diego met with a group and then we were bussed over the border to build "houses" for the underprivileged inhabitants of Tijuana.
My impression of the folks involved with Y-WAM was pretty much like any other church. Lots of really drippy religiosity, well-meaning people, and a carload of "We don't have a farking clue".
The overwhelming feeling I got of the basic mindset of the group was that of unbridled, naive, condscending patronizing. A sickeningly sweet veneer papering over an unbearable need to do good. Lots of folks desperately seeking validation. Lots of locals stoically putting up the Ugly Americans so as to gain access to a little of their largess.
The home schooling aspect is something some on the right figured the lefty teacher unions would push as a contributing factor. Some would wonder if being in a large city public school is better or worse for becoming socialized and non-violent..
Home schooling in and of itself is not necessarily bad. However, people who do it often home school because they want to control the information their kids have to insane levels, and present propaganda for them. You would not be happy if you knew people were homeschooling kids with textbooks like "The History of Communism, Mankind's Greatest Achievement" yet the Christian equivalents are being used in some cases of home schooling.
Also, home schooling parents have to be careful to make sure their kids are in a lot of activities outside of the home involving other kids. Parents who isolate their kids via homeschooling and don't have any other activities end up with really weird kids. When I was younger I was in the Boy Scouts, and we had a few home schooled kids for whom it was already too late. I remember we would play pranks on this one kid, and he would scream bible verses at us.
Ihave NOT heard that homeschooling per se has been blamed, only the particular program he was in. Even at THAT, I am certain not ALL who use that program turn out like he did. Obviously there were many contributing factors. I want to make it clear I do not paint all homeschool programs with a single brush, nor all homeschoolers.
By the way, the killer's parents attended the memorial service for the two victims at the Arvada, CO site today. Afterward they met together with the victim's parents, and prayed together with them. From what was reported, all were very willing for this meeting, and it was described as the start of a long healing process. I can only imagine how difficult it must have been for all concerned, and I am awed that it was able to happen.
I've been involved in teaching homeschoolers for 8 years now. I work with two schools that serve to supplement the homeschooling parents.
There is no one pattern for homeschooling. I've seen it done well and I've seen it done poorly. I have some definite ideas of what works and what doesn't work, but those ideas have no place in this thread.
This young man seems to have had some other problems that were not the product of homeschooling.
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Mister P-Mosh
Unfortunately, the level of insanity and hatred required to commit murders like these are often caused by growing up in a cult like this guy did. There is no excuse for the murders he committed and all the suffering he caused, but we should look at the causes of these tragedies to see what we can do to stop them in the future.
Having grown up in TWI, I can understand why he wouldn't like Christian groups. If TWI was my only exposure to Christianity, I'd probably hate all Christians too. Religious cults including fundamentalist Christian groups like this guy was apparently raised in cause people to adopt extremists behavior, even if they are extreme in their rejection of the fundamentalism.
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HAPe4me
I have not heard of this group being described as a cult before. (Youth with a Mission website: http://www.ywam.org/contents/abo_wha_ywamexplained.htm They are nothing like TWI.
The first shooting took place 10 blocks from my house. I drive by the location several times a week on my way to the bank or grocery.
First of all, the shooter did NOT grow up in the group which he took revenge against. He did participate for a period of time in their missionary training program ( program as I understand). He did not complete the program, due to what is reported as health reasons. Those have not as yet been revealed, nor do I know if they were physical or mental, but allusions have been made to his mental health at the time. His family are very active in their church, but that too is not a cult from what I have heard.
Secondly, the group itself is supported by mainline churches, and provided with space and facilities by them. The second shootings took place at the largest church in CO, started by Ted Haggard who was outed for his clandestine homosexual liasons a couple of years ago, and released from his position at the church. His outing was ONLY significant because he was well known for his views opposing gays.
I do not understand what is being alluded to by this thread, please explain.
~HAP
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FaintWhispers
It would seem to me it's merely a matter of concern that's being alluded to -- much the same as many other topics opened for further discussion and comment -- just as it's become a hot topic on many other boards, such as this one - where the guy may or may not have been a regular member.
* Edited to include name of the poster/date/time posted
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FaintWhispers
Just as he may or may not have authored this post titled - My YWAM Horror Story. . .
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HAPe4me
Thanks FaintW for finding those posts. I suspect we will learn more, but my guess is that the description posted above is way off base as a real description of YWAM, knowing the church here in Arvada which is their sponsor, and reading what I have on the YWAM website.
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HAPe4me
SOME sites for people leaving SOME groups actually add to the rage for SOME people. Happens here as well. On the other hand SOME people find solace in the companions they find there. I am really just suggesting that it would be unwise and unfair to label YWAM as being a cult based on that poster's or the shooter's view.
This is a portion of a statement by YWAM:
By the way, contrary to the comment in Faintwhisper's quoted post, the shooter was killed in the ColoSprgs church, by a security guard. security there had been beefed up for the morning, after information of the Arvada shooting was announced, considering the common programs between the two locations.
~HAP
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FaintWhispers
I meant only to offer a possible explanation for opening the thread -- providing those links and quotes (seemingly most relevant) in an effort to illustrate how the discussion alluded to, could be considered germane to the topic.
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rhino
Hey Hap ...
I don't think I was alluding to that group being a cult, though reading those mesages FaintWhispers quoted now makes me wonder a little. But the main interest was simply that he was on a site with some similarities to GreaseSpot. It certainly seemed a topic that would be of interest on many levels.
You said "SOME sites for people leaving SOME groups actually add to the rage for SOME people. Happens here as well." If rage is being ADDED here at any point, then that could be looked at ... why is there rage being added here at GreaseSpot?
I don't know about YWAM, as I said at first, it seemed much different than TWI. It is larger and tied in with other churches apparently. Still I don't care for the controlling structure of even "normal" churches, so some of the inner working of the more fundamentalist groups may reveal more dogmatic and intolerant behavior than I would have thought from reading their brochure. Of course TWI brochures would present an innocuous image as well.
They now say the killer killed himself, though the security guard shot at him, maybe hit him.
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rhino
If the fundamentalist group was the cause, there would be many more murders. His rejection may have been a trigger, but he was apparently only involved short time. The guy in the Norway killer thread ... not sure about him. Perhaps the parenting will be looked at ... did they push him too hard to conform? Or did he have the wrong chromosmes? Or was he not breast fed?
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Mister P-Mosh
I think you and I agree to a point. I'm not saying that everyone raised in a religious cult is going to go crazy. I'll never murder anyone and I was raised in TWI which was probably worse. There are many other people raised in cults that never go on to commit violence against anyone else. However, things that are taught in strict religious households do lead to mental illness, or make existing ones worse. For example, TWI's belief that we are constantly under attack by devil spirits is a pretty crazy thing. You often hear about insane murderers claiming that they got revelation from God to kill someone because they were a demon disguised as a person. A lot of what this type of Christianity teaches results in creating mental illnesses in kids.
Also, as far as the religious group his parents were associated with, I thought it was Ted Haggard's church. If you watch the documentary "Jesus Camp" they are brought into it because those kids attended his church. These people are even more isolated from reality than we were in TWI, the kids are homeschooled with only religious books, they are raised to be "soldiers for Jesus", and were taught in their summer camp to admire and adopt the dedication of Muslim suicide bombers.
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HAPe4me
Ok, continuing.
Yes, this morning the autopsy was released, and he is listed as suicide gunshot to the head. He was hit three times in the leg and wrist by the security guard. I apologize for my earlier correction, much was made here yesterday as to the guard's role.
Rhino- it was more P-Mosh's post that struck me as accusing YWAM of being a cult, and he has further explained his earlier thoughts. From your original post it was unclear to me what you were trying to have a discussion about and I asked for explanation which I THINK you have now provided. (something about what role the forums he participated played???- is that right). His most inflaming posts seem to be on a place called alt.suicide.holiday THAT might indicate how unsound his mental reasoning had been stretched.
P-Mosh- As far as I know his parent's church is not affiliated with Haggard's. One is in central Denver, the other in ColoSpgs.
As reported today, one thing in his past being discussed here in CO is the homeschool program he was raised with. The particular curriculum (perhaps search for "Bill Gotthard"?) his parent's followed is one of the most strict regarding rules for conduct. It is not recommended by or for very many homeschool educator's. I will wait for more to be revealed about it, I do not have time to look now. I do understand it forbade dating, and many other types of socializing.
This might have caused him to be an unworthy candidate for a christian missionary program. He was denied joining his YWAM's training group's mission trip after his 12 weeks training. The reason YWAM is giving is that he was considered too much of an introvert to be of help in the mission which was going to Bosnia.
It is NOT being suggested that being homeschooled was the problem itself, only that perhaps the particular program he was in might have not been well advised for his particular needs, and exacerbated what is likely to have been an already fragile mental condition.
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HAPe4me
As far as I know, Matt Murray's connection to Haggard's church was through YWAM not his parent's church. Both the Arvada church and NewLife Church (Haggard's) have onsite offices for YWAM.
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rhino
Hap I was trying not to be too focused, but to intoduce the topic broadly.
I was only aware that he had posted to a site for people getting out of fundamentalist type groups, so maybe he would have gotten better help here. :) I was just thinking that his site didn't help him, but maybe it actually hurt him, if there was a lot of Christian hate generated there ... I have no idea at this point. Depending on what he had written, perhaps the FBI was called too late. ...
It is hard to relate to such extreme aberrant behavior, but still it seemed there might be something to glean from the situation ... and we are here to discuss anyway ...
The home schooling aspect is something some on the right figured the lefty teacher unions would push as a contributing factor. Some would wonder if being in a large city public school is better or worse for becoming socialized and non-violent..
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George Aar
Uh, I actually did some "time" with Y-WAM.
Well, what I did was go along with them to Tijuana after the (now ex) missus volunteered my services.
I paid for my own plane ticket to San Diego met with a group and then we were bussed over the border to build "houses" for the underprivileged inhabitants of Tijuana.
My impression of the folks involved with Y-WAM was pretty much like any other church. Lots of really drippy religiosity, well-meaning people, and a carload of "We don't have a farking clue".
The overwhelming feeling I got of the basic mindset of the group was that of unbridled, naive, condscending patronizing. A sickeningly sweet veneer papering over an unbearable need to do good. Lots of folks desperately seeking validation. Lots of locals stoically putting up the Ugly Americans so as to gain access to a little of their largess.
No, I didn't make any "pals" while there...
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Mister P-Mosh
Home schooling in and of itself is not necessarily bad. However, people who do it often home school because they want to control the information their kids have to insane levels, and present propaganda for them. You would not be happy if you knew people were homeschooling kids with textbooks like "The History of Communism, Mankind's Greatest Achievement" yet the Christian equivalents are being used in some cases of home schooling.
Also, home schooling parents have to be careful to make sure their kids are in a lot of activities outside of the home involving other kids. Parents who isolate their kids via homeschooling and don't have any other activities end up with really weird kids. When I was younger I was in the Boy Scouts, and we had a few home schooled kids for whom it was already too late. I remember we would play pranks on this one kid, and he would scream bible verses at us.
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HAPe4me
Ihave NOT heard that homeschooling per se has been blamed, only the particular program he was in. Even at THAT, I am certain not ALL who use that program turn out like he did. Obviously there were many contributing factors. I want to make it clear I do not paint all homeschool programs with a single brush, nor all homeschoolers.
By the way, the killer's parents attended the memorial service for the two victims at the Arvada, CO site today. Afterward they met together with the victim's parents, and prayed together with them. From what was reported, all were very willing for this meeting, and it was described as the start of a long healing process. I can only imagine how difficult it must have been for all concerned, and I am awed that it was able to happen.
~HAP
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doojable
I've been involved in teaching homeschoolers for 8 years now. I work with two schools that serve to supplement the homeschooling parents.
There is no one pattern for homeschooling. I've seen it done well and I've seen it done poorly. I have some definite ideas of what works and what doesn't work, but those ideas have no place in this thread.
This young man seems to have had some other problems that were not the product of homeschooling.
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HAPe4me
no argument from me Dooj
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