you weren't there, so I wonder what makes you think you know I didn't stand up and speak? you say by my own admission, but why would I say (and indeed, where did I say) something so patently untrue?
Ok Where
Qupte.......
what I learned in real life was that to survive as comfortably as possible, I should not disagree with what the leaders were teaching.
That pretty much says it all I wont disagree with what the leaders say, which means that one would not stand up and stand and speak......
Note the goal is for you to survive as comfortably as possible not concern for the integrity of the scripture despite personal discomfort like the records in the Bible.
it actually doesn't say it all, WD. I LEARNED to keep my mouth shut and not disagree. my desire for comfortable survival came when I had two small children to raise and leadership who wouldn't give me an inch of breathing room, and a husband in cahoots with them. escaping their notice meant I could keep things together enough to raise my kids. there was no changing it, so I protected myself and my kids the best I could til I could get out.
Yep you made it your own so much that you uttered this famous quote..............
Quote#33
I've heard it all before and it's the main reason I'm not christian anymore.
So U see too wistand all that because of making the scripture your own only just to profess such statements seems at best highly unlikely.
so you're saying that if I made the scripture my own and that's what gave me strength at that time when I was fighting for my sanity, I can't NOT be a christian now at this present time? and if I'm not christian, I can't believe any scripture? methinks I see a logical fallacy.
so much of this stuff is like arguing over whose brand of Snake Oil is the best.
And the really annoying part is to have to suffer - yet one more time - listening to somebody, who quite likely doesn't have a clue what's really going on in the world, confidently give his guidance and counsel to those who don't need or want it, and didn't request it.
It's amazing how someone can become so convinced of "Truths" that are so dubious and have little or no support in the REAL world. Just what is it that makes some "Believers" so adamant and committed to superstitious dogma? The charisma of their teacher? The magnitude of the promises made in their Holy Writ of choice? Or is it simply warm and squishy feelings they get from the belief? I dunno...
Personally, I'd much rather know an unpleasant truth than be comforted by pleasant fables...
so much of this stuff is like arguing over whose brand of Snake Oil is the best.
And the really annoying part is to have to suffer - yet one more time - listening to somebody, who quite likely doesn't have a clue what's really going on in the world, confidently give his guidance and counsel to those who don't need or want it, and didn't request it.
It's amazing how someone can become so convinced of "Truths" that are so dubious and have little or no support in the REAL world. Just what is it that makes some "Believers" so adamant and committed to superstitious dogma? The charisma of their teacher? The magnitude of the promises made in their Holy Writ of choice? Or is it simply warm and squishy feelings they get from the belief? I dunno...
Personally, I'd much rather know an unpleasant truth than be comforted by pleasant fables...
Meet ya for a beer George - couldn't agree more... BTW can I interest you in a magic formula that will give you...and it's REALLY cheap
When confronted with Bulls*** it seems that the response would be not to cower away but to respond with that which we had learned It Is Written. Sorry I just don't get why anyone took the abuse. I can only conclude that person did not make the scripture their own to the point of where none of those things moved them, the place where speaking and living the truth was more important than personal comfort. I realize that some peoples opinions have changed as of now but at the time I think its fair to say that most were of the mind of standing up for the scripture.
Geez, WhiteDove, I guess in your world then we should blame victims of rapists, the child suffering child abuse from a parent, the boy raped by his priest. Â
I can't remember any that said you took any personal responsibility in any of the situations that you spoke of. It is always the Way ,the Twig Coordinator, the Branch Coordinator the Limb Coordinator.
So you're saying the victim of a violent rape that has lingering problems never took personal responsibility to take the hit and work through it either, they shoulda stood against it and know inside themselves that they were better than being treated like that, they shouldn't feel bad about it.  Huh...right.  Only the strong survive, the weak, the fragile, the fearful can't hack it and it's their own fault.  Hmmm?
Say White Dove, just curious, how did you leave TWI, did you leave of your own volition, or did they bounce you out on your ear?
Geez, WhiteDove, I guess in your world then we should blame victims of rapists, the child suffering child abuse from a parent, the boy raped by his priest. Â
So you're saying the victim of a violent rape that has lingering problems never took personal responsibility to take the hit and work through it either, they shoulda stood against it and know inside themselves that they were better than being treated like that, they shouldn't feel bad about it.  Huh...right.  Only the strong survive, the weak, the fragile, the fearful can't hack it and it's their own fault.  Hmmm?
Say White Dove, just curious, how did you leave TWI, did you leave of your own volition, or did they bounce you out on your ear?
Well I guess you want to join in the fun. I'll answer your questions point by pointsince you can't seem to read whats written either.
Geez, WhiteDove, I guess in your world then we should blame victims of rapists, the child suffering child abuse from a parent, the boy raped by his priest.
First point I never said to blame anyone for anything ,accepting personal responsibility for decisions has no blame with it just personal fortitude.You get the same challenge as Tom and Rascal find a post that says that. Second I never addressed the subjects you wrote about above ,my words were addressing other issues you can't take those and apply them to whatever you want. Third I never spoke as to situations that involved non adults or adults in situations beyond their control. Here is the difference since you obviously can't figure it out on your own. Rape is a crime not a choice Abortion is a choice, there are options, none are easy choices, but once one is made the chooser then should take responsibility for that decision.
So you're saying the victim of a violent rape that has lingering problems never took personal responsibility to take the hit and work through it either, they shoulda stood against it and know inside themselves that they were better than being treated like that, they shouldn't feel bad about it. Huh...right. Only the strong survive, the weak, the fragile, the fearful can't hack it and it's their own fault. Hmmm?
I don't think I said that at all.Do you have a quote? again re read answer 1 above
Say White Dove, just curious, how did you leave TWI, did you leave of your own volition, or did they bounce you out on your ear?
I left on my own at the point where I felt there was going to be no change in the situation. I did confront the Limb and of course answered the Corps demand letter at a later point. I did so at a coordinators meeting so I had witnesses as to everything that was said and not said. I laid out point by point my concerns and why according to scripture I felt that their direction was not in the right way just like we learned ( well some of us did). I informed our fellowship the following day of our decision and offered an oppertunity to anyone who wanted to transfer to a Way Twig with our blessing. None did At that point we continued with our home fellowship.
Hello WhiteDove.............i've been following along with your posts here on this thread for a couple of days now, as well as some posts you've placed on some other threads.......your last post here raised some questions in my mind, which i hope you won't mind answering..............
"I left on my own at the point where I felt there was going to be no change in the situation. I did confront the Limb and of course answered the Corps demand letter at a later point. I did so at a coordinators meeting so I had witnesses as to everything that was said and not said. I laid out point by point my concerns and why according to scripture I felt that their direction was not in the right way just like we learned ( well some of us did). I informed our fellowship the following day of our decision and offered an oppertunity to anyone who wanted to transfer to a Way Twig with our blessing. None did At that point we continued with our home fellowship."
was this in about 1989 or so, after martindale's "loyalty" demand letter?.........what "situation" are you referring to, about which you "felt there was going to be no change"?...........what exactly were your "concerns" about "their direction" which you felt "was not in the right way"?.........what, in your opinion, was "the right way"
"we learned", and, what was "wrong" with "their direction"?........do you still have an independent "home fellowship" which you run?........what do you teach at your fellowship?........i mean, do you teach the bible?......do you have any specific resources outside of the bible that you use or recommend to help the members in their study of the bible?......do you recommend works by any authors who have written books about the bible or how to study it?........i was just curious as to the answers to these questions, because i feel such answers would help me, and hopefully other greasespotters, to have a better perspective on where exactly you are "coming from" in your posts here. i'm thinking that, perhaps it would be helpful for us to have a clearer understanding of exactly what your personal philosophical and theological beliefs are, in order to enjoy less acrimonious discussions on this thread............i, for one, would sure appreciate having a little more info from you to help me honestly understand the positions you take in your posts here.............thanks for your time and your honest response to my honest inquiries.........................peace.
Hello WhiteDove.............i've been following along with your posts here on this thread for a couple of days now, as well as some posts you've placed on some other threads.......your last post here raised some questions in my mind, which i hope you won't mind answering..............
"I left on my own at the point where I felt there was going to be no change in the situation. I did confront the Limb and of course answered the Corps demand letter at a later point. I did so at a coordinators meeting so I had witnesses as to everything that was said and not said. I laid out point by point my concerns and why according to scripture I felt that their direction was not in the right way just like we learned ( well some of us did). I informed our fellowship the following day of our decision and offered an opportunity to anyone who wanted to transfer to a Way Twig with our blessing. None did At that point we continued with our home fellowship."
was this in about 1989 or so, after martindale's "loyalty" demand letter?.........
I believe it was about six months before the letter that I informed the limb leader that we would no longer be holding a fellowship associated with the Way Int. that would have been late 89 I believe Craigs letter arrived in Feb 1990.
what "situation" are you referring to, about which you "felt there was going to be no change"?...........what exactly were your "concerns" about "their direction" which you felt "was not in the right way"?.........
There were many too many to outline in short here but since the 86 Corps week not much had really changed no direction, no nothing really Craig was lost in a fog and when he finally did take some action his response was to strike out at those that could have had any hope of producing any change. Following the POP at Corps week 86 he asked for our support but there was nothing to support his teachings were nothing but rants void of sound scripture.
what, in your opinion, was "the right way"
"we learned", and, what was "wrong" with "their direction"?........
I would not profess that everything we learned was the right way I have never stated that it was. I do feel that I personally benefited from my years of teaching in the Way over all. The most beneficial of all was to endeavor to live a lifestyle of making the Bible, scripture, my rule of faith and practice. That it would be the guide for decisions in life, we have all at times fallen short of that goal. I think the difference is honest mistakes vs purposeful disregard. I saw that there was no regard for the scripture at that point and no signs despite their words that anytime soon they would return to any sort of relationship with God in the running of the ministry.
do you still have an independent "home fellowship" which you run?........
Yes
what do you teach at your fellowship?........i mean, do you teach the bible?......do you have any specific resources outside of the bible that you use or recommend to help the members in their study of the bible?......do you recommend works by any authors who have written books about the bible or how to study it?
The fellowship has evolved over the years from start it was basically the same as we always had done while a part of the way. At this point we are more of a study group I'd say. We have done some community service things, We have spent some time looking at health issues because that was a concern at the time for some ,Having had great deliverance they were no longer a priority so we moved on to other things. I have an interest in biblical archaeology, and have acquired a collection of biblical artifacts to utilize in teaching. In fact I will be displaying them in a gallery here later this year. Tangible things can assist faith in its growth toward God archaeology brings forth the tangible remnants of history so that faith can have a reasonable context in which to develop.
If I may digress:
One of my favorite pieces is a terra cotta oil lamp from 100BC - 100AD period it has opened up the scripture to me
Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
An eye does not produce light in and of itself it simply passes light from the outside in. Rays of light are reflected off of an object .Although the images appear to be seamless, each blending imperceptibly into the next, they are in reality being updated almost continuously by the vision apparatus of your eyes and brain. The seamless quality in the images that you see is possible because human vision updates images, including the details of motion and color, on a time scale so rapid that a "break in the action" is almost never perceived.
God's Word brings light, spiritual light to our mind. Many times today we see prints with this verse on them and beside the Bible there is a candle. In reality the oil lamp of biblical times should be there. A candle only enlightens until it burns out of wax. A lamp like the one I have will light as long as oil is kept in the lamp base. With the wick at the top of the lamp and the filling hole in the middle as it is the lamp can be continuously refilled with out ever going out. I believe that is the true lesson from Ephesians 5:18 and the lamp vs candle. We have through the light of scripture an endless supply of understanding available to us not a supply that will burn out like a candle.
.
At some point before I pass on I hope to assemble a seminar on biblical understanding through archaeology. To let others share and touch and feel the history of the scriptures.
We have and still do use outside Christian books in our studies too numerous to mention here. Some pan out some don't. I also resource with about 20 or so Exway groups/teachers and have used various classes and or books. . I've enjoyed Ken Petty's work and Peter Wade, Taylor Overbey will be here in February to teach his seminar Power from on High .
........i was just curious as to the answers to these questions, because i feel such answers would help me, and hopefully other greasespotters, to have a better perspective on where exactly you are "coming from" in your posts here. i'm thinking that, perhaps it would be helpful for us to have a clearer understanding of exactly what your personal philosophical and theological beliefs are, in order to enjoy less acrimonious discussions on this thread............i, for one, would sure appreciate having a little more info from you to help me honestly understand the positions you take in your posts here.............thanks for your time and your honest response to my honest inquiries.........................peace.
Unless you're talking a completely different letter from lcm,
the form-letter that said "I'm firing your local staff because they were evil and
now I expect loyalty from the rest of you" came in April 1989 and was dated then.
It's especially easy for me to remember, since one of my responses to it was to
make a point of attending ROA '89 and making a fact-finding mission part of my
agenda. (I'd seen the local people in action, now I wanted to see the people
who fired them in action, specifically with their current agenda in place.
I figured an informed decision was best.)
That was also my last ROA.
=========
If it was the letter TO STAFF, it was BEFORE then, since the public letter
was sent in response to staff letters saying it was unBiblical to choose among
men.
Thanks for the timeline I did not look it up which is why I said I think. Idid look it up this morning that letter was dated simply March 1989 It was to staff with a return decision date of April 5th
The letter I responded to was dated March 1990 and was the yearly Corps assignment letter.but was basicly the same in tone.the return date for a decision on that letter was the 31st of March.
I would not profess that everything we learned was the right way I have never stated that it was. I do feel that I personally benefited from my years of teaching in the Way over all. The most beneficial of all was to endeavor to live a lifestyle of making the Bible, scripture, my rule of faith and practice. That it would be the guide for decisions in life, we have all at times fallen short of that goal. I think the difference is honest mistakes vs purposeful disregard. I saw that there was no regard for the scripture at that point and no signs despite their words that anytime soon they would return to any sort of relationship with God in the running of the ministry.
Kinda generic answer.......isn't it?
"I would not profess that everything we learned was *the right way".........no sheet sherlock.
"I have never stated that it was"..........maybe not, but you sure take a hard stance AGAINST lots of us when we point out the abusive/narcisstic side of wierwille and his pyramid cult.
"The most beneficial of all was to endeavor to live a lifestyle of making the Bible, scripture, my rule of faith and practice."............yep, but then YOU never went WOW or Corps.....attempting to do the *fast-track* learning curve of twi's programs.
"I think the difference is honest mistakes vs purposeful disregard.".......don't see wierwille falling into either of these two categories. No, he would be much further along the continuum........in the narcisstic/predatory/plagairist side of extreme contempt for others.
With contempt and disregard for any Christian lifestyle, let alone a Minister's lifestyle......wierwille set the stage for the TWI EXODUS that was imminent. Besides, many of corps leadership were nearing their 40s......with family and careers and long-range goals and concerns coming into full focus. The cult experience was over.......for many.
"I would not profess that everything we learned was *the right way".........no sheet sherlock.
"I have never stated that it was"..........maybe not, but you sure take a hard stance AGAINST lots of us when we point out the abusive/narcisstic side of wierwille and his pyramid cult.
"The most beneficial of all was to endeavor to live a lifestyle of making the Bible, scripture, my rule of faith and practice."............yep, but then YOU never went WOW or Corps.....attempting to do the *fast-track* learning curve of twi's programs.
"I think the difference is honest mistakes vs purposeful disregard.".......don't see wierwille falling into either of these two categories. No, he would be much further along the continuum........in the narcisstic/predatory/plagairist side of extreme contempt for others.
With contempt and disregard for any Christian lifestyle, let alone a Minister's lifestyle......wierwille set the stage for the TWI EXODUS that was imminent. Besides, many of corps leadership were nearing their 40s......with family and careers and long-range goals and concerns coming into full focus. The cult experience was over.......for many.
You know nothing about me . Don't presume that you do.
I take a "hard stance" as you put it against unproven opinions which don't fit with the english definition of facts. Facts are proven opinions are like a**holes everyone has one and some stink.
You know nothing about me . Don't presume that you do.
I take a "hard stance" as you put it against unproven opinions which don't fit with the english definition of facts. Facts are proven opinions are like a**holes everyone has one and some stink.
you take a "hard stance" against 'opinions that are unproven' to you... and by unproven, you mean that you didn't personally witness them, therefore they did not occur...
Thank you, WhiteDove for taking the time to answer the questions i asked you! it was very nice of you to do so, and........it is very helpful for me to know a little more about where you are coming from.
So,........i see you left twi somewhere during late 1989 or early 1990........CONGRATULATIONS!.........i'm sure you did all you could when confronting your limb and other twi leadership about the many issues which they refused to line up to even twi's versions of the bible, let alone the actual scripture itself!....i'm sure their arrogant and absolute rejection, or "purposeful disregard" of the scriptures you tried your best to show them was a disappointment, and probably quite frustrating for you at that time!.....perhaps you were able to protect the folks in your twig from some of the deep hurts caused by this twi sanctioned and commanded rejection of "the word", and the many misdeeds of twi leaderhip that were prevalent in many areas of twi.
I left twi via resignation from my "corps assignment, in december, 1986, after a full 9 months of trying my best to get lcm and the bot to see and accept the "truth of the word" regarding the multitude of misdeeds they had committed, and were continuing to commit during those 9 months, and for several years before 1986.....unfortunately, my "corps assignment" at that time, placed me in the position of having daily, one-on-one as well as group meetings with the bot during those months. i say unfortunately, because, due to that daily, firsthand contact with those men and other "top leadership" at hq at the time, i was forced to deal with the firsthand acconts of many victims of sexual and "spiritual" abuse perpetrated against those victims not only by the then twi bot and other twi "top leadership", but also many who had been sexually and "spiritually" abused by vpw himself......women, who were only then, after vpw's death, able to begin voicing what they had suffered at his hands.......these victims' firsthand accounts were often horribly gut-wrenching, and the psychoemotional and "spiritual" damage done to them caused multiple and varied responses.......some were able to obtain closure by sharing what had happened to them with me,.....knowing that i had access to the bot, and that i would confront the individual offenders directly and personally on the behalf of their victims, and report back immediately, their response.......a very few were afforded the "luxury" of a face-to-face meeting with their abusers.......the vast majority were not!........for some, the damage and hurt was so profound, that they required professional psychiatric help and medication in order ro help them cope with the aftermath of what they had experienced......a few required hospitalization.......and, several, unfortunately, committed suicide!........as i said, the horror of what these victims had experienced at the hands of vpw, lcm, and other "top twi leadership" was one of the most difficult things i ever had to deal with, as i tried desperately to help them.........thankfully, there were a few corps grads (dr.s. leven, dr. m. carli, and a few others), who were professionally trained and able to help me with what rapidly became an overwhelming number of "cases" of this abuse......let me make it perfectly clear, that, NEVER ONCE DID VPW, LCM, OR ANY OF THE OTHERS I PERSONALLY CONFRONTED ABOUT SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL CASES THEY WERE EACH PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN, EVER DENY THEIR GUILT!....... some even haughtily admitted to their misdeeds, stating unabashedly the god had absolutely "no problem" with what they had done, other than my "rabid legalism" which would cause us to "lose the ministry'!!
of course, there were numerous excuses, twisted scriptures and doctines, and vicious personal attacks against the victims (and me), that these lying hypocrites came up with to try and justify or legitimize their actions.......but, NEVER A DENIAL!
One time, in the early summer of 1984, when i was on vpw's motorcoach in the "courtyard", i confronted vpw with a specific "report" from one of his many victims.
after i had presented him with the facts, his only response was........"son, there are just some things i choose not to discuss with people"!..........that was it!.........as i sat there in stunned silence, watching him smoke his cigarette, he sicked his guard dog TJ, on me........calling the dog over to sit at my feet, growling through bared teeth!......it was chris geer, who opened the motorcoach door from the outside where he was "standing guard", and called off the dog so i could get out!
another time, when i was confronting lcm in the "motorcycle shed" about his sexual abuse of 2 different in-residence corps women at that time, his response to me was........"you need to back off, man! dr. wierwille told me, that if i did'nt loosen up in this category of life, i'd never be a great leader or lover of god's people"!!....again,....NO DENIAL!.......IN FACT, AN ADMISSION!..... with the excuse that it was a direct order from vp himself that started lcm off on his path of sexual predation and human destruction!
You were not there with me during those events, whitedove,.....which, i suppose, is lucky for you.....but, the same rejection, "purposeful disregard" of the "word" which you faced in your confrontations with twi leadership 3 years later, i faced on an almost daily basis from those men on the twi bot!......even though i was not present with you during your efforts to correct the many errors you saw in twi, i know from my own experiences, that what you are saying is true, and i think i truly understand what you went through!......i'm sure your heart was pure, as were your intentions.....so were mine!.........however, based on numerous posts of your's scattered throughout many different threads here at the greasespot throughout the years........i am not so sure you are as willing to accept my "witness" as i am to accept your's..........i don't say that to personally attack you........it's just how i feel after reading what you've posted here.
your rejection of the accounts of some of the victims who have posted their "stories" here at the spot, is what causes me to question your willingness to accept my "witness" as i accept your's.......i asked you for honest answers to my questions to you.........and you graciously replied (honestly, i believe!)......imo, you did so because of a strong commitment to honesty and manintaining your personal integrity.........i accept your answers as honest, and i think i understand how you may have felt during your time of confrontaion with twi leadership at your local level, even though i was not there with you.....perhaps you, personally, are self-assured and/or "thickskinned" enough to not have any "hurt feelings" were i to reject your answers, and doubt their veracity or truthfulness, because i was'nt with you when you took your stand.......but, many of the victims whose firsthand accounts you have rejected here, are not as "thickskinned" or self-assured as you may be......and, your total rejection of their "witness" does hurt them........especially since their experiences with twi's rejection, "purposeful disregard" of "the word" were far more intimate and graphic in nature than your's or mine!.........do you understand that whitedove??........does the christ in you bear witness to the christ in them??.........after all, are they not your sisters in christ??
Almost everyone who posts here left twi.........there are as many reasons for leaving as there are posters.......but, every one of us who posts here left twi because the "word of god" was no longer twi's "rule of faith and practice"! the paths of exit are also as varied as the reasons for leaving......and the choices people have made or are making regarding their "spiritual" beliefs are also diverse........but, regardless of the reasons for leaving twi.........regardless of the paths of escape..........and, regardless of our current beliefs...we are all connected by holy spirit, and our exit from twi's cult of personality!.....how we treat and respect each other is more important to some than to others........but, i do know that part of Pawtucket's heart regarding the purpose of the greasespot cafe, is for it to provide a place of respite for all us twi "refugees".......a place to vent........a place to discuss our common issues.........a place to debate, in a civil manner, our current differences of opinion on whatever!........and, perhaps, most importantly,....a place to help heal the wounds of those most profoundly injured by vpw's, lcm's, and twi's rejection, "purposeful disregard" for that "word of god" which, initially brought us all together,......and, eventually, caused us each to leave!
I respect your personal journey WD......i respect your right to believe whatever you choose to believe......i respect your choice to leave twi.........i also expect the same respect from you.........and, i would ask in addition, that you dig down deep into your heart, and bring up some of the compassion of christ that dwells therein, and share it with the other twi "refugees" whose journey, though newer, older, shorter, or longer......and however otherwise different from your own....is just as important and necessary to them as your's has been and is to you!..............thanks again for your honest answers to my earlier questions!.................peace.
Thank you, WhiteDove for taking the time to answer the questions i asked you! it was very nice of you to do so, and........it is very helpful for me to know a little more about where you are coming from.
So,........i see you left twi somewhere during late 1989 or early 1990........CONGRATULATIONS!.........i'm sure you did all you could when confronting your limb and other twi leadership about the many issues which they refused to line up to even twi's versions of the bible, let alone the actual scripture itself!....i'm sure their arrogant and absolute rejection, or "purposeful disregard" of the scriptures you tried your best to show them was a disappointment, and probably quite frustrating for you at that time!.....perhaps you were able to protect the folks in your twig from some of the deep hurts caused by this twi sanctioned and commanded rejection of "the word", and the many misdeeds of twi leaderhip that were prevalent in many areas of twi.
I left twi via resignation from my "corps assignment, in december, 1986, after a full 9 months of trying my best to get lcm and the bot to see and accept the "truth of the word" regarding the multitude of misdeeds they had committed, and were continuing to commit during those 9 months, and for several years before 1986.....unfortunately, my "corps assignment" at that time, placed me in the position of having daily, one-on-one as well as group meetings with the bot during those months. i say unfortunately, because, due to that daily, firsthand contact with those men and other "top leadership" at hq at the time, i was forced to deal with the firsthand acconts of many victims of sexual and "spiritual" abuse perpetrated against those victims not only by the then twi bot and other twi "top leadership", but also many who had been sexually and "spiritually" abused by vpw himself......women, who were only then, after vpw's death, able to begin voicing what they had suffered at his hands.......these victims' firsthand accounts were often horribly gut-wrenching, and the psychoemotional and "spiritual" damage done to them caused multiple and varied responses.......some were able to obtain closure by sharing what had happened to them with me,.....knowing that i had access to the bot, and that i would confront the individual offenders directly and personally on the behalf of their victims, and report back immediately, their response.......a very few were afforded the "luxury" of a face-to-face meeting with their abusers.......the vast majority were not!........for some, the damage and hurt was so profound, that they required professional psychiatric help and medication in order ro help them cope with the aftermath of what they had experienced......a few required hospitalization.......and, several, unfortunately, committed suicide!........as i said, the horror of what these victims had experienced at the hands of vpw, lcm, and other "top twi leadership" was one of the most difficult things i ever had to deal with, as i tried desperately to help them.........thankfully, there were a few corps grads (dr.s. leven, dr. m. carli, and a few others), who were professionally trained and able to help me with what rapidly became an overwhelming number of "cases" of this abuse......let me make it perfectly clear, that, NEVER ONCE DID VPW, LCM, OR ANY OF THE OTHERS I PERSONALLY CONFRONTED ABOUT SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL CASES THEY WERE EACH PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN, EVER DENY THEIR GUILT!....... some even haughtily admitted to their misdeeds, stating unabashedly the god had absolutely "no problem" with what they had done, other than my "rabid legalism" which would cause us to "lose the ministry'!!
of course, there were numerous excuses, twisted scriptures and doctines, and vicious personal attacks against the victims (and me), that these lying hypocrites came up with to try and justify or legitimize their actions.......but, NEVER A DENIAL!
One time, in the early summer of 1984, when i was on vpw's motorcoach in the "courtyard", i confronted vpw with a specific "report" from one of his many victims.
after i had presented him with the facts, his only response was........"son, there are just some things i choose not to discuss with people"!..........that was it!.........as i sat there in stunned silence, watching him smoke his cigarette, he sicked his guard dog TJ, on me........calling the dog over to sit at my feet, growling through bared teeth!......it was chris geer, who opened the motorcoach door from the outside where he was "standing guard", and called off the dog so i could get out!
another time, when i was confronting lcm in the "motorcycle shed" about his sexual abuse of 2 different in-residence corps women at that time, his response to me was........"you need to back off, man! dr. wierwille told me, that if i did'nt loosen up in this category of life, i'd never be a great leader or lover of god's people"!!....again,....NO DENIAL!.......IN FACT, AN ADMISSION!..... with the excuse that it was a direct order from vp himself that started lcm off on his path of sexual predation and human destruction!
You were not there with me during those events, whitedove,.....which, i suppose, is lucky for you.....but, the same rejection, "purposeful disregard" of the "word" which you faced in your confrontations with twi leadership 3 years later, i faced on an almost daily basis from those men on the twi bot!......even though i was not present with you during your efforts to correct the many errors you saw in twi, i know from my own experiences, that what you are saying is true, and i think i truly understand what you went through!......i'm sure your heart was pure, as were your intentions.....so were mine!.........however, based on numerous posts of your's scattered throughout many different threads here at the greasespot throughout the years........i am not so sure you are as willing to accept my "witness" as i am to accept your's..........i don't say that to personally attack you........it's just how i feel after reading what you've posted here.
your rejection of the accounts of some of the victims who have posted their "stories" here at the spot, is what causes me to question your willingness to accept my "witness" as i accept your's.......i asked you for honest answers to my questions to you.........and you graciously replied (honestly, i believe!)......imo, you did so because of a strong commitment to honesty and manintaining your personal integrity.........i accept your answers as honest, and i think i understand how you may have felt during your time of confrontaion with twi leadership at your local level, even though i was not there with you.....perhaps you, personally, are self-assured and/or "thickskinned" enough to not have any "hurt feelings" were i to reject your answers, and doubt their veracity or truthfulness, because i was'nt with you when you took your stand.......but, many of the victims whose firsthand accounts you have rejected here, are not as "thickskinned" or self-assured as you may be......and, your total rejection of their "witness" does hurt them........especially since their experiences with twi's rejection, "purposeful disregard" of "the word" were far more intimate and graphic in nature than your's or mine!.........do you understand that whitedove??........does the christ in you bear witness to the christ in them??.........after all, are they not your sisters in christ??
Almost everyone who posts here left twi.........there are as many reasons for leaving as there are posters.......but, every one of us who posts here left twi because the "word of god" was no longer twi's "rule of faith and practice"! the paths of exit are also as varied as the reasons for leaving......and the choices people have made or are making regarding their "spiritual" beliefs are also diverse........but, regardless of the reasons for leaving twi.........regardless of the paths of escape..........and, regardless of our current beliefs...we are all connected by holy spirit, and our exit from twi's cult of personality!.....how we treat and respect each other is more important to some than to others........but, i do know that part of Pawtucket's heart regarding the purpose of the greasespot cafe, is for it to provide a place of respite for all us twi "refugees".......a place to vent........a place to discuss our common issues.........a place to debate, in a civil manner, our current differences of opinion on whatever!........and, perhaps, most importantly,....a place to help heal the wounds of those most profoundly injured by vpw's, lcm's, and twi's rejection, "purposeful disregard" for that "word of god" which, initially brought us all together,......and, eventually, caused us each to leave!
I respect your personal journey WD......i respect your right to believe whatever you choose to believe......i respect your choice to leave twi.........i also expect the same respect from you.........and, i would ask in addition, that you dig down deep into your heart, and bring up some of the compassion of christ that dwells therein, and share it with the other twi "refugees" whose journey, though newer, older, shorter, or longer......and however otherwise different from your own....is just as important and necessary to them as your's has been and is to you!..............thanks again for your honest answers to my earlier questions!.................peace.
I answered your questions , I never offered you any proof that it was truth I don't expect you to believe me you have no reason to. Trust No One!
Almost everyone who posts here left twi.........there are as many reasons for leaving as there are posters.......but, every one of us who posts here left twi because the "word of god" was no longer twi's "rule of faith and practice"! the paths of exit are also as varied as the reasons for leaving......and the choices people have made or are making regarding their "spiritual" beliefs are also diverse........but, regardless of the reasons for leaving twi.........regardless of the paths of escape..........and, regardless of our current beliefs...we are all connected by holy spirit, and our exit from twi's cult of personality!.....how we treat and respect each other is more important to some than to others........but, i do know that part of Pawtucket's heart regarding the purpose of the greasespot cafe, is for it to provide a place of respite for all us twi "refugees".......a place to vent........a place to discuss our common issues.........a place to debate, in a civil manner, our current differences of opinion on whatever!........and, perhaps, most importantly,....a place to help heal the wounds of those most profoundly injured by vpw's, lcm's, and twi's rejection, "purposeful disregard" for that "word of god" which, initially brought us all together,......and, eventually, caused us each to leave!
I respect your personal journey WD......i respect your right to believe whatever you choose to believe......i respect your choice to leave twi.........i also expect the same respect from you.........and, i would ask in addition, that you dig down deep into your heart, and bring up some of the compassion of christ that dwells therein, and share it with the other twi "refugees" whose journey, though newer, older, shorter, or longer......and however otherwise different from your own....is just as important and necessary to them as your's has been and is to you!..............thanks again for your honest answers to my earlier questions!.................peace.
ummm WD, I reposted these last two paragraphs from DWBH because (judging by your response) you didn't read them... and if you did read them you didn't "hear" them...
And if you just don't really care about anyone else but White Dove what the heck are you doing here? Happy playing your troll-like games?
Is your "fellowship" associated with any particular group? I'm sure folks would like to know so that they can avoid all contact with it.
ummm WD, I reposted these last two paragraphs from DWBH because (judging by your response) you didn't read them... and if you did read them you didn't "hear" them...
And if you just don't really care about anyone else but White Dove what the heck are you doing here? Happy playing your troll-like games?
Is your "fellowship" associated with any particular group? I'm sure folks would like to know so that they can avoid all contact with it.
don't you remember Tom? WD is here to protect the Truth of twi's good name.
I also am curious about which group WD is associated with. not that I plan on affiliating myself with ANY christian group. I just think the information would be useful for people wanting to avoid the same judgmental, unloving atmosphere that twi fostered.
Everyone - This has nothing to do with self righteousness, the fact is we were involved with a ministry that was built on the standard of It Is Written and while arguably that may not have always been the case in every situation. (that's a argument for a different day.) It none the less was the core of the groups teaching. How many different ways did we hear it? The Word of God is the Will of God, Make the Word your own, God's Magnified Word, It Is Written, The Integrity of the Word and a whole long line of others. This was ministry 101 so to speak, starting in PFAL or before in Twigs. We were to make the scriptures a standard or reference point in life. It's like going through fifteen years of math classes and not understanding two plus two equal four. Anyone that spent more than fifteen minutes at the way should have got that. I suppose there were some that never took that seriously that never made the scriptures their rule of faith and practice ,that seems a foreign concept to me . Why would you be there if you did not want to live that kind of life? That's what they were offering why stay around if that was not what one was wanting?
How come YOU didn't leave when YOU first saw it WD? How come YOU didn't leave when YOU confronted them and nothing changed?
Don't fault others for something YOU did yourself.
Also, it's awfully presumptuous of you to state that "the ministry was built on the standard of It Is Written"... the "ministry" was built on the lives and souls of those sacrificed satisfying the needs of veepee, the BOT and others.
Now assuming that everyone was now wanting this lifestyle due to the fact they were staying around and not only that but speaking and promoting it to others. I must admit I am amazed that when the rubber met the road that this concept somehow went out the window , Why anyone would not really out of automatic response almost, confront each situation with scriptural response. The concept of just "being comfortable" seems foreign to one who said they wanted to live a lifestyle of biblical standard. I'll insert here Yes - I got it! (face melting, fear of family, wanting to be loved, leaving a program and then rest) But then again going back to the lifestyle that we were wanting to adhere to . We would have seen that none of those things should have moved us from the truth of scriptures. When confronted with Bulls*** it seems that the response would be not to cower away but to respond with that which we had learned It Is Written. Sorry I just don't get why anyone took the abuse. I can only conclude that person did not make the scripture their own to the point of where none of those things moved them, the place where speaking and living the truth was more important than personal comfort. I realize that some peoples opinions have changed as of now but at the time I think its fair to say that most were of the mind of standing up for the scripture.
You conclude a lot WD... what makes you the expert? What makes you think they were comfortable? Many have told you that they objected, tried to fight one way or another, but were eventually beaten down and submitted to 'the higher authority'... How come YOU didn't leave when YOU confronted them and nothing changed? Don't fault others for something YOU did yourself.
Potato - <snip>
While it is true it may not have changed things in the way ,that person would have walked away with a different perspective rather than feeling silenced they could have walked away knowing that they did the best they could to remedy the situation with truth. And that has made all the difference in posting perspectives In My Opinion. I can make this observation from the facts you presented not from knowing you or a personal opinion of you. That you failed to stand up and speak in the situation is not in question by your own admission you did not, why you did not remains to be seen.
WD, there are a number of people on these forums who have told you of the things that went on, the things that happened to them, that they confronted (like you're advocating here) and when things didn't change, they left... yet YOU respond to them that YOU don't believe it ever happened because it can't be proven. YOU deny.
I offered comment on what we all should have done in accordance with what we were saying that we were doing while in the way. Generally they should be the same thing if honest.
OK... I think I understand you now. IF SOMETHING IS TO BE CONSIDERED 'HONEST' BY YOU IT MUST AGREE WITH YOU AND YOUR OPINION.
don't you remember Tom? WD is here to protect the Truth of twi's good name.
Well you get the same challenge as the rest Can you provide a quote for your accusation or do you just Make s**t up as well?
Supporting factual information is not equal to supporting TWI If you'll read my posts in fact you will see I have agreed with many points where TWI was wrong I guess you missed those ..... You see what you want to see............ Some people can see the difference in the wrong and right some only want to see wrong.
You know WD, after DWBH's heartfelt sharing, someone who was with VP, LCM and the BOT every day for years and months - and, unlike you - did his best to help the victims of these men, got them counseling when needed and help -
You come back with that pathetic little one line answer?
What sexual victim of VP or LCM's did you ever help?
Yeah, we know, NONE.
You're a bunch of hot air.
Who are you to talk?
After listening to you spew, trust me honey, no one would ever confide in you.
Meh - you're not worth anyone else's time here.
We just see you for what you are, the little troll.
Say hi to your handlers at, hmmm - I'd guess you're a Geerite. They're the nastiest, most legalistic, most deluded bunch out there - true case studies of ones whos "love has waxed cold."
How come YOU didn't leave when YOU first saw it WD? How come YOU didn't leave when YOU confronted them and nothing changed?
Don't fault others for something YOU did yourself.
I believe what I said was they should have spoken up rather than internalizing their anger.
Also, it's awfully presumptuous of you to state that "the ministry was built on the standard of It Is Written"... the "ministry" was built on the lives and souls of those sacrificed satisfying the needs of veepee, the BOT and others.
You conclude a lot WD... what makes you the expert? What makes you think they were comfortable? Many have told you that they objected, tried to fight one way or another, but were eventually beaten down and submitted to 'the higher authority'... How come YOU didn't leave when YOU confronted them and nothing changed? Don't fault others for something YOU did yourself.
What makes you think they were comfortable?
Because they said they were look up her post those were her words[ not mine I never stated that everyone was confortable once again you failed to represent what I said. Hello Context ? ........
I see you conviently missed this point from my post Quote....... and while arguably that may not have always been the case in every situation. (that's a argument for a different day.) It none the less was the core of the groups teaching. Do you really expect me to believe that was not the case its everywhere throughtout any book or litature. Don't play dumb.
WD, there are a number of people on these forums who have told you of the things that went on, the things that happened to them, that they confronted (like you're advocating here) and when things didn't change, they left... yet YOU respond to them that YOU don't believe it ever happened because it can't be proven. YOU deny.
OK... I think I understand you now. IF SOMETHING IS TO BE CONSIDERED 'HONEST' BY YOU IT MUST AGREE WITH YOU AND YOUR OPINION.
God forbid you should ever change your opinion...
Again not what I said . I said is was not ducumentable as truth it may have happened it may have not until such time it can be documented " I" will not accept it as truth because it does not fit within the definition of truth as in the English language. It has nothing to do with what I think or believe I may believe it to be true but that does not make it so I think I said that just a few times but your selective reading may have gotten in the way.
[I believe what I said was they should have spoken up rather than internalizing their anger.
And MANY have told you that they DID SPEAK UP and your reply is often that what they're saying happened did not happen.
Again not what I said . I said is was not ducumentable as truth it may have happened it may have not until such time it can be documented " I" will not accept it as truth because it does not fit within the definition of truth as in the English language. It has nothing to do with what I think or believe I may believe it to be true but that does not make it so I think I said that just a few times but your selective reading may have gotten in the way.
Just because YOU do not "accept it as truth" does not mean it didn't happen... YOU reserve the right to believe YOUR TRUTH, why do you continually deny others their right to do the same?
So Sunesis is it your opinion that every heartfelt sharing should be considered truth? I guess OJ really did not kill his wife and Mr. Vick why he never hurt no dogs. Sorry I don't see heartfelt as a standard for truth There are some recent cases of heartfelt people pleading for their missing kids, only to find they knew all along where they were. If you choose to accept that as truth your choice it won't be mine. That's not to say that in this case his story was not true just unverifiable.
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potato
it actually doesn't say it all, WD. I LEARNED to keep my mouth shut and not disagree. my desire for comfortable survival came when I had two small children to raise and leadership who wouldn't give me an inch of breathing room, and a husband in cahoots with them. escaping their notice meant I could keep things together enough to raise my kids. there was no changing it, so I protected myself and my kids the best I could til I could get out.
so you're saying that if I made the scripture my own and that's what gave me strength at that time when I was fighting for my sanity, I can't NOT be a christian now at this present time? and if I'm not christian, I can't believe any scripture? methinks I see a logical fallacy.
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George Aar
Oh gawd,
so much of this stuff is like arguing over whose brand of Snake Oil is the best.
And the really annoying part is to have to suffer - yet one more time - listening to somebody, who quite likely doesn't have a clue what's really going on in the world, confidently give his guidance and counsel to those who don't need or want it, and didn't request it.
It's amazing how someone can become so convinced of "Truths" that are so dubious and have little or no support in the REAL world. Just what is it that makes some "Believers" so adamant and committed to superstitious dogma? The charisma of their teacher? The magnitude of the promises made in their Holy Writ of choice? Or is it simply warm and squishy feelings they get from the belief? I dunno...
Personally, I'd much rather know an unpleasant truth than be comforted by pleasant fables...
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RumRunner
Meet ya for a beer George - couldn't agree more... BTW can I interest you in a magic formula that will give you...and it's REALLY cheap
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now I see
So you're saying the victim of a violent rape that has lingering problems never took personal responsibility to take the hit and work through it either, they shoulda stood against it and know inside themselves that they were better than being treated like that, they shouldn't feel bad about it.  Huh...right.  Only the strong survive, the weak, the fragile, the fearful can't hack it and it's their own fault.  Hmmm?
Say White Dove, just curious, how did you leave TWI, did you leave of your own volition, or did they bounce you out on your ear?
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WhiteDove
Geez, WhiteDove, I guess in your world then we should blame victims of rapists, the child suffering child abuse from a parent, the boy raped by his priest. Â
So you're saying the victim of a violent rape that has lingering problems never took personal responsibility to take the hit and work through it either, they shoulda stood against it and know inside themselves that they were better than being treated like that, they shouldn't feel bad about it.  Huh...right.  Only the strong survive, the weak, the fragile, the fearful can't hack it and it's their own fault.  Hmmm?
Say White Dove, just curious, how did you leave TWI, did you leave of your own volition, or did they bounce you out on your ear?
Well I guess you want to join in the fun. I'll answer your questions point by pointsince you can't seem to read whats written either.
First point I never said to blame anyone for anything ,accepting personal responsibility for decisions has no blame with it just personal fortitude.You get the same challenge as Tom and Rascal find a post that says that. Second I never addressed the subjects you wrote about above ,my words were addressing other issues you can't take those and apply them to whatever you want. Third I never spoke as to situations that involved non adults or adults in situations beyond their control. Here is the difference since you obviously can't figure it out on your own. Rape is a crime not a choice Abortion is a choice, there are options, none are easy choices, but once one is made the chooser then should take responsibility for that decision.I don't think I said that at all.Do you have a quote? again re read answer 1 above
I left on my own at the point where I felt there was going to be no change in the situation. I did confront the Limb and of course answered the Corps demand letter at a later point. I did so at a coordinators meeting so I had witnesses as to everything that was said and not said. I laid out point by point my concerns and why according to scripture I felt that their direction was not in the right way just like we learned ( well some of us did). I informed our fellowship the following day of our decision and offered an oppertunity to anyone who wanted to transfer to a Way Twig with our blessing. None did At that point we continued with our home fellowship.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hello WhiteDove.............i've been following along with your posts here on this thread for a couple of days now, as well as some posts you've placed on some other threads.......your last post here raised some questions in my mind, which i hope you won't mind answering..............
"I left on my own at the point where I felt there was going to be no change in the situation. I did confront the Limb and of course answered the Corps demand letter at a later point. I did so at a coordinators meeting so I had witnesses as to everything that was said and not said. I laid out point by point my concerns and why according to scripture I felt that their direction was not in the right way just like we learned ( well some of us did). I informed our fellowship the following day of our decision and offered an oppertunity to anyone who wanted to transfer to a Way Twig with our blessing. None did At that point we continued with our home fellowship."
was this in about 1989 or so, after martindale's "loyalty" demand letter?.........what "situation" are you referring to, about which you "felt there was going to be no change"?...........what exactly were your "concerns" about "their direction" which you felt "was not in the right way"?.........what, in your opinion, was "the right way"
"we learned", and, what was "wrong" with "their direction"?........do you still have an independent "home fellowship" which you run?........what do you teach at your fellowship?........i mean, do you teach the bible?......do you have any specific resources outside of the bible that you use or recommend to help the members in their study of the bible?......do you recommend works by any authors who have written books about the bible or how to study it?........i was just curious as to the answers to these questions, because i feel such answers would help me, and hopefully other greasespotters, to have a better perspective on where exactly you are "coming from" in your posts here. i'm thinking that, perhaps it would be helpful for us to have a clearer understanding of exactly what your personal philosophical and theological beliefs are, in order to enjoy less acrimonious discussions on this thread............i, for one, would sure appreciate having a little more info from you to help me honestly understand the positions you take in your posts here.............thanks for your time and your honest response to my honest inquiries.........................peace.
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WhiteDove
Hello WhiteDove.............i've been following along with your posts here on this thread for a couple of days now, as well as some posts you've placed on some other threads.......your last post here raised some questions in my mind, which i hope you won't mind answering..............
"I left on my own at the point where I felt there was going to be no change in the situation. I did confront the Limb and of course answered the Corps demand letter at a later point. I did so at a coordinators meeting so I had witnesses as to everything that was said and not said. I laid out point by point my concerns and why according to scripture I felt that their direction was not in the right way just like we learned ( well some of us did). I informed our fellowship the following day of our decision and offered an opportunity to anyone who wanted to transfer to a Way Twig with our blessing. None did At that point we continued with our home fellowship."
I believe it was about six months before the letter that I informed the limb leader that we would no longer be holding a fellowship associated with the Way Int. that would have been late 89 I believe Craigs letter arrived in Feb 1990.There were many too many to outline in short here but since the 86 Corps week not much had really changed no direction, no nothing really Craig was lost in a fog and when he finally did take some action his response was to strike out at those that could have had any hope of producing any change. Following the POP at Corps week 86 he asked for our support but there was nothing to support his teachings were nothing but rants void of sound scripture.
I would not profess that everything we learned was the right way I have never stated that it was. I do feel that I personally benefited from my years of teaching in the Way over all. The most beneficial of all was to endeavor to live a lifestyle of making the Bible, scripture, my rule of faith and practice. That it would be the guide for decisions in life, we have all at times fallen short of that goal. I think the difference is honest mistakes vs purposeful disregard. I saw that there was no regard for the scripture at that point and no signs despite their words that anytime soon they would return to any sort of relationship with God in the running of the ministry.Yes
The fellowship has evolved over the years from start it was basically the same as we always had done while a part of the way. At this point we are more of a study group I'd say. We have done some community service things, We have spent some time looking at health issues because that was a concern at the time for some ,Having had great deliverance they were no longer a priority so we moved on to other things. I have an interest in biblical archaeology, and have acquired a collection of biblical artifacts to utilize in teaching. In fact I will be displaying them in a gallery here later this year. Tangible things can assist faith in its growth toward God archaeology brings forth the tangible remnants of history so that faith can have a reasonable context in which to develop.If I may digress:
One of my favorite pieces is a terra cotta oil lamp from 100BC - 100AD period it has opened up the scripture to me
Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
An eye does not produce light in and of itself it simply passes light from the outside in. Rays of light are reflected off of an object .Although the images appear to be seamless, each blending imperceptibly into the next, they are in reality being updated almost continuously by the vision apparatus of your eyes and brain. The seamless quality in the images that you see is possible because human vision updates images, including the details of motion and color, on a time scale so rapid that a "break in the action" is almost never perceived.
God's Word brings light, spiritual light to our mind. Many times today we see prints with this verse on them and beside the Bible there is a candle. In reality the oil lamp of biblical times should be there. A candle only enlightens until it burns out of wax. A lamp like the one I have will light as long as oil is kept in the lamp base. With the wick at the top of the lamp and the filling hole in the middle as it is the lamp can be continuously refilled with out ever going out. I believe that is the true lesson from Ephesians 5:18 and the lamp vs candle. We have through the light of scripture an endless supply of understanding available to us not a supply that will burn out like a candle.
.
At some point before I pass on I hope to assemble a seminar on biblical understanding through archaeology. To let others share and touch and feel the history of the scriptures.
We have and still do use outside Christian books in our studies too numerous to mention here. Some pan out some don't. I also resource with about 20 or so Exway groups/teachers and have used various classes and or books. . I've enjoyed Ken Petty's work and Peter Wade, Taylor Overbey will be here in February to teach his seminar Power from on High .
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WordWolf
Unless you're talking a completely different letter from lcm,
the form-letter that said "I'm firing your local staff because they were evil and
now I expect loyalty from the rest of you" came in April 1989 and was dated then.
It's especially easy for me to remember, since one of my responses to it was to
make a point of attending ROA '89 and making a fact-finding mission part of my
agenda. (I'd seen the local people in action, now I wanted to see the people
who fired them in action, specifically with their current agenda in place.
I figured an informed decision was best.)
That was also my last ROA.
=========
If it was the letter TO STAFF, it was BEFORE then, since the public letter
was sent in response to staff letters saying it was unBiblical to choose among
men.
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WhiteDove
Thanks for the timeline I did not look it up which is why I said I think. Idid look it up this morning that letter was dated simply March 1989 It was to staff with a return decision date of April 5th
The letter I responded to was dated March 1990 and was the yearly Corps assignment letter.but was basicly the same in tone.the return date for a decision on that letter was the 31st of March.
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skyrider
Kinda generic answer.......isn't it?
"I would not profess that everything we learned was *the right way".........no sheet sherlock.
"I have never stated that it was"..........maybe not, but you sure take a hard stance AGAINST lots of us when we point out the abusive/narcisstic side of wierwille and his pyramid cult.
"The most beneficial of all was to endeavor to live a lifestyle of making the Bible, scripture, my rule of faith and practice."............yep, but then YOU never went WOW or Corps.....attempting to do the *fast-track* learning curve of twi's programs.
"I think the difference is honest mistakes vs purposeful disregard.".......don't see wierwille falling into either of these two categories. No, he would be much further along the continuum........in the narcisstic/predatory/plagairist side of extreme contempt for others.
With contempt and disregard for any Christian lifestyle, let alone a Minister's lifestyle......wierwille set the stage for the TWI EXODUS that was imminent. Besides, many of corps leadership were nearing their 40s......with family and careers and long-range goals and concerns coming into full focus. The cult experience was over.......for many.
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WhiteDove
You know nothing about me . Don't presume that you do.
I take a "hard stance" as you put it against unproven opinions which don't fit with the english definition of facts. Facts are proven opinions are like a**holes everyone has one and some stink.
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Tom Strange
you take a "hard stance" against 'opinions that are unproven' to you... and by unproven, you mean that you didn't personally witness them, therefore they did not occur...
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DontWorryBeHappy
Thank you, WhiteDove for taking the time to answer the questions i asked you! it was very nice of you to do so, and........it is very helpful for me to know a little more about where you are coming from.
So,........i see you left twi somewhere during late 1989 or early 1990........CONGRATULATIONS!.........i'm sure you did all you could when confronting your limb and other twi leadership about the many issues which they refused to line up to even twi's versions of the bible, let alone the actual scripture itself!....i'm sure their arrogant and absolute rejection, or "purposeful disregard" of the scriptures you tried your best to show them was a disappointment, and probably quite frustrating for you at that time!.....perhaps you were able to protect the folks in your twig from some of the deep hurts caused by this twi sanctioned and commanded rejection of "the word", and the many misdeeds of twi leaderhip that were prevalent in many areas of twi.
I left twi via resignation from my "corps assignment, in december, 1986, after a full 9 months of trying my best to get lcm and the bot to see and accept the "truth of the word" regarding the multitude of misdeeds they had committed, and were continuing to commit during those 9 months, and for several years before 1986.....unfortunately, my "corps assignment" at that time, placed me in the position of having daily, one-on-one as well as group meetings with the bot during those months. i say unfortunately, because, due to that daily, firsthand contact with those men and other "top leadership" at hq at the time, i was forced to deal with the firsthand acconts of many victims of sexual and "spiritual" abuse perpetrated against those victims not only by the then twi bot and other twi "top leadership", but also many who had been sexually and "spiritually" abused by vpw himself......women, who were only then, after vpw's death, able to begin voicing what they had suffered at his hands.......these victims' firsthand accounts were often horribly gut-wrenching, and the psychoemotional and "spiritual" damage done to them caused multiple and varied responses.......some were able to obtain closure by sharing what had happened to them with me,.....knowing that i had access to the bot, and that i would confront the individual offenders directly and personally on the behalf of their victims, and report back immediately, their response.......a very few were afforded the "luxury" of a face-to-face meeting with their abusers.......the vast majority were not!........for some, the damage and hurt was so profound, that they required professional psychiatric help and medication in order ro help them cope with the aftermath of what they had experienced......a few required hospitalization.......and, several, unfortunately, committed suicide!........as i said, the horror of what these victims had experienced at the hands of vpw, lcm, and other "top twi leadership" was one of the most difficult things i ever had to deal with, as i tried desperately to help them.........thankfully, there were a few corps grads (dr.s. leven, dr. m. carli, and a few others), who were professionally trained and able to help me with what rapidly became an overwhelming number of "cases" of this abuse......let me make it perfectly clear, that, NEVER ONCE DID VPW, LCM, OR ANY OF THE OTHERS I PERSONALLY CONFRONTED ABOUT SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL CASES THEY WERE EACH PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN, EVER DENY THEIR GUILT!....... some even haughtily admitted to their misdeeds, stating unabashedly the god had absolutely "no problem" with what they had done, other than my "rabid legalism" which would cause us to "lose the ministry'!!
of course, there were numerous excuses, twisted scriptures and doctines, and vicious personal attacks against the victims (and me), that these lying hypocrites came up with to try and justify or legitimize their actions.......but, NEVER A DENIAL!
One time, in the early summer of 1984, when i was on vpw's motorcoach in the "courtyard", i confronted vpw with a specific "report" from one of his many victims.
after i had presented him with the facts, his only response was........"son, there are just some things i choose not to discuss with people"!..........that was it!.........as i sat there in stunned silence, watching him smoke his cigarette, he sicked his guard dog TJ, on me........calling the dog over to sit at my feet, growling through bared teeth!......it was chris geer, who opened the motorcoach door from the outside where he was "standing guard", and called off the dog so i could get out!
another time, when i was confronting lcm in the "motorcycle shed" about his sexual abuse of 2 different in-residence corps women at that time, his response to me was........"you need to back off, man! dr. wierwille told me, that if i did'nt loosen up in this category of life, i'd never be a great leader or lover of god's people"!!....again,....NO DENIAL!.......IN FACT, AN ADMISSION!..... with the excuse that it was a direct order from vp himself that started lcm off on his path of sexual predation and human destruction!
You were not there with me during those events, whitedove,.....which, i suppose, is lucky for you.....but, the same rejection, "purposeful disregard" of the "word" which you faced in your confrontations with twi leadership 3 years later, i faced on an almost daily basis from those men on the twi bot!......even though i was not present with you during your efforts to correct the many errors you saw in twi, i know from my own experiences, that what you are saying is true, and i think i truly understand what you went through!......i'm sure your heart was pure, as were your intentions.....so were mine!.........however, based on numerous posts of your's scattered throughout many different threads here at the greasespot throughout the years........i am not so sure you are as willing to accept my "witness" as i am to accept your's..........i don't say that to personally attack you........it's just how i feel after reading what you've posted here.
your rejection of the accounts of some of the victims who have posted their "stories" here at the spot, is what causes me to question your willingness to accept my "witness" as i accept your's.......i asked you for honest answers to my questions to you.........and you graciously replied (honestly, i believe!)......imo, you did so because of a strong commitment to honesty and manintaining your personal integrity.........i accept your answers as honest, and i think i understand how you may have felt during your time of confrontaion with twi leadership at your local level, even though i was not there with you.....perhaps you, personally, are self-assured and/or "thickskinned" enough to not have any "hurt feelings" were i to reject your answers, and doubt their veracity or truthfulness, because i was'nt with you when you took your stand.......but, many of the victims whose firsthand accounts you have rejected here, are not as "thickskinned" or self-assured as you may be......and, your total rejection of their "witness" does hurt them........especially since their experiences with twi's rejection, "purposeful disregard" of "the word" were far more intimate and graphic in nature than your's or mine!.........do you understand that whitedove??........does the christ in you bear witness to the christ in them??.........after all, are they not your sisters in christ??
Almost everyone who posts here left twi.........there are as many reasons for leaving as there are posters.......but, every one of us who posts here left twi because the "word of god" was no longer twi's "rule of faith and practice"! the paths of exit are also as varied as the reasons for leaving......and the choices people have made or are making regarding their "spiritual" beliefs are also diverse........but, regardless of the reasons for leaving twi.........regardless of the paths of escape..........and, regardless of our current beliefs...we are all connected by holy spirit, and our exit from twi's cult of personality!.....how we treat and respect each other is more important to some than to others........but, i do know that part of Pawtucket's heart regarding the purpose of the greasespot cafe, is for it to provide a place of respite for all us twi "refugees".......a place to vent........a place to discuss our common issues.........a place to debate, in a civil manner, our current differences of opinion on whatever!........and, perhaps, most importantly,....a place to help heal the wounds of those most profoundly injured by vpw's, lcm's, and twi's rejection, "purposeful disregard" for that "word of god" which, initially brought us all together,......and, eventually, caused us each to leave!
I respect your personal journey WD......i respect your right to believe whatever you choose to believe......i respect your choice to leave twi.........i also expect the same respect from you.........and, i would ask in addition, that you dig down deep into your heart, and bring up some of the compassion of christ that dwells therein, and share it with the other twi "refugees" whose journey, though newer, older, shorter, or longer......and however otherwise different from your own....is just as important and necessary to them as your's has been and is to you!..............thanks again for your honest answers to my earlier questions!.................peace.
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WhiteDove
I answered your questions , I never offered you any proof that it was truth I don't expect you to believe me you have no reason to. Trust No One!
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Tom Strange
ummm WD, I reposted these last two paragraphs from DWBH because (judging by your response) you didn't read them... and if you did read them you didn't "hear" them...
And if you just don't really care about anyone else but White Dove what the heck are you doing here? Happy playing your troll-like games?
Is your "fellowship" associated with any particular group? I'm sure folks would like to know so that they can avoid all contact with it.
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potato
don't you remember Tom? WD is here to protect the Truth of twi's good name.
I also am curious about which group WD is associated with. not that I plan on affiliating myself with ANY christian group. I just think the information would be useful for people wanting to avoid the same judgmental, unloving atmosphere that twi fostered.
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Tom Strange
How come YOU didn't leave when YOU first saw it WD? How come YOU didn't leave when YOU confronted them and nothing changed?
Don't fault others for something YOU did yourself.
Also, it's awfully presumptuous of you to state that "the ministry was built on the standard of It Is Written"... the "ministry" was built on the lives and souls of those sacrificed satisfying the needs of veepee, the BOT and others.
You conclude a lot WD... what makes you the expert? What makes you think they were comfortable? Many have told you that they objected, tried to fight one way or another, but were eventually beaten down and submitted to 'the higher authority'... How come YOU didn't leave when YOU confronted them and nothing changed? Don't fault others for something YOU did yourself.
WD, there are a number of people on these forums who have told you of the things that went on, the things that happened to them, that they confronted (like you're advocating here) and when things didn't change, they left... yet YOU respond to them that YOU don't believe it ever happened because it can't be proven. YOU deny.
OK... I think I understand you now. IF SOMETHING IS TO BE CONSIDERED 'HONEST' BY YOU IT MUST AGREE WITH YOU AND YOUR OPINION.
God forbid you should ever change your opinion...
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WhiteDove
Well you get the same challenge as the rest Can you provide a quote for your accusation or do you just Make s**t up as well?
Supporting factual information is not equal to supporting TWI If you'll read my posts in fact you will see I have agreed with many points where TWI was wrong I guess you missed those ..... You see what you want to see............ Some people can see the difference in the wrong and right some only want to see wrong.
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Sunesis
You know WD, after DWBH's heartfelt sharing, someone who was with VP, LCM and the BOT every day for years and months - and, unlike you - did his best to help the victims of these men, got them counseling when needed and help -
You come back with that pathetic little one line answer?
What sexual victim of VP or LCM's did you ever help?
Yeah, we know, NONE.
You're a bunch of hot air.
Who are you to talk?
After listening to you spew, trust me honey, no one would ever confide in you.
Meh - you're not worth anyone else's time here.
We just see you for what you are, the little troll.
Say hi to your handlers at, hmmm - I'd guess you're a Geerite. They're the nastiest, most legalistic, most deluded bunch out there - true case studies of ones whos "love has waxed cold."
Meh.
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Tom Strange
And some people only want to deny the wrong. Hey Mr. Pot... you called the kettle black!
Da Nile is not just a river in Egypt.
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WhiteDove
How come YOU didn't leave when YOU first saw it WD? How come YOU didn't leave when YOU confronted them and nothing changed?
Don't fault others for something YOU did yourself.
I believe what I said was they should have spoken up rather than internalizing their anger.
Also, it's awfully presumptuous of you to state that "the ministry was built on the standard of It Is Written"... the "ministry" was built on the lives and souls of those sacrificed satisfying the needs of veepee, the BOT and others.
You conclude a lot WD... what makes you the expert? What makes you think they were comfortable? Many have told you that they objected, tried to fight one way or another, but were eventually beaten down and submitted to 'the higher authority'... How come YOU didn't leave when YOU confronted them and nothing changed? Don't fault others for something YOU did yourself.
Because they said they were look up her post those were her words[ not mine I never stated that everyone was confortable once again you failed to represent what I said. Hello Context ? ........
I see you conviently missed this point from my post Quote....... and while arguably that may not have always been the case in every situation. (that's a argument for a different day.) It none the less was the core of the groups teaching. Do you really expect me to believe that was not the case its everywhere throughtout any book or litature. Don't play dumb.
WD, there are a number of people on these forums who have told you of the things that went on, the things that happened to them, that they confronted (like you're advocating here) and when things didn't change, they left... yet YOU respond to them that YOU don't believe it ever happened because it can't be proven. YOU deny.
OK... I think I understand you now. IF SOMETHING IS TO BE CONSIDERED 'HONEST' BY YOU IT MUST AGREE WITH YOU AND YOUR OPINION.
God forbid you should ever change your opinion...
Again not what I said . I said is was not ducumentable as truth it may have happened it may have not until such time it can be documented " I" will not accept it as truth because it does not fit within the definition of truth as in the English language. It has nothing to do with what I think or believe I may believe it to be true but that does not make it so I think I said that just a few times but your selective reading may have gotten in the way.
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Tom Strange
And MANY have told you that they DID SPEAK UP and your reply is often that what they're saying happened did not happen.
Just because YOU do not "accept it as truth" does not mean it didn't happen... YOU reserve the right to believe YOUR TRUTH, why do you continually deny others their right to do the same?
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doojable
You're oversimplifying the definition of the word "truth" so that it fits with what you want to say.
Truth
I'd call that dishonest.
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WhiteDove
So Sunesis is it your opinion that every heartfelt sharing should be considered truth? I guess OJ really did not kill his wife and Mr. Vick why he never hurt no dogs. Sorry I don't see heartfelt as a standard for truth There are some recent cases of heartfelt people pleading for their missing kids, only to find they knew all along where they were. If you choose to accept that as truth your choice it won't be mine. That's not to say that in this case his story was not true just unverifiable.
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